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post #1891 of 2134 Old 05-29-2019, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
I don't understand why you'd want to do either of those when for ~$100 you could have full proper stereo rear surrounds using two small DPL units with center extraction (like the Onkyo es600 pro) or even matrixed active mixer). In both cases you'd extract sides from the surrounds which would be sent to your rear speakers (5.1+FW -- extract sides from surrounds and front wides or fronts and surrounds if you think wides won't get much output).
I'm not understanding what you mean by "extract sides from the surrounds" in this context. The goal is to create matrixed Surround Back speakers in the rear of the room, and I don't see a way to do that other than the two scenarios I listed above, even if using two additional AVRs. Perhaps if you draw a picture of what you mean?

I have no interest in putting additional speakers between the Front Wides and the Surrounds. I have enough speakers in the front half of my room.

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Given the lack of wides support in movies, I think you'd be better off extracting front wides from sides and mains and using discrete rears as I'm doing. They then also work with DSU and even Auro-3D.
I get that. However, if I were going to extract Front Wides from between the front mains and the Surrounds, I'd wouldn't want to use a pair of cheapo DPL AVRs (which is what I already have on hand). I'd want a couple of high-quality AVRs with low noise floor and sufficient power to drive my mains at high volume.

Right now, I have a couple of old Marantz receivers from 2003. They were budget units, aren't very powerful, and noticeably elevate the noise floor. They're good enough to power six heights in my Scatmos system, and would probably be good enough for Surrounds and Surround Backs if I repurposed them on the ground level, but I don't want them touching my front towers. The noise they add would be too distracting coming from the front of the room and the most important speakers in the system.

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post #1892 of 2134 Old 05-29-2019, 11:04 AM
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Just posted in the dedicated Atmos thread (bolding mine):
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Originally Posted by dschulz View Post
Of interest to folks here: last night there was a SMPTE/AES meeting with a topic of mixing for home theatre. One of the speakers was Scott Kramer of Netflix, who spoke about Netflix's initiatives supporting high quality audio, and in particular Atmos. Netflix is now recommending their content partners mix in Atmos, with a minimum monitoring environment of 7.1.4 and a recommended monitoring environment of 9.1.6 - and he specifically called out that Netflix feels the Front Wide speakers are very useful in creating a nice, wide front sound stage. He also clarified that Netflix is delivering true object-based Atmos, not hard-printing to 7.1.4 or 9.1.6, so for people with extended Atmos arrays you'll see activity through all your speakers as objects pass around the room.

Netflix is up to ~250 titles streaming with Atmos, with much, much more to come.
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post #1893 of 2134 Old 05-29-2019, 11:12 AM
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the movie : Unbreakable,
Bruce Willis

not an ATMOS movie

the scene of being trapped and sinking in the plastic covering the pool, being underwater and all the thrashing about

DSU really comes alive for that.

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post #1894 of 2134 Old 05-29-2019, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
I don't understand why you'd want to do either of those when for ~$100 you could have full proper stereo rear surrounds using two small DPL units with center extraction (like the Onkyo es600 pro) or even matrixed active mixer). In both cases you'd extract sides from the surrounds which would be sent to your rear speakers (5.1+FW -- extract sides from surrounds and front wides or fronts and surrounds if you think wides won't get much output).
I'm not understanding what you mean by "extract sides from the surrounds" in this context. The goal is to create matrixed Surround Back speakers in the rear of the room, and I don't see a way to do that other than the two scenarios I listed above, even if using two additional AVRs. Perhaps if you draw a picture of what you mean?
The idea is instead of trying to create rear speakers when you have no real information to do so, you instead use the "side" surround (normally just called surround when no rears are used) and connect it to DPL processors along with the front wides (or front mains) and you extract a channel in-between which become your surround sides.

In other words, your rear speakers get the surround signal from a 5.1 + FW setup and the regular surrounds (or sides if you like) get the extracted signal in-between them. This ensures any sounds traveling/panning to the back of the room pass through your side speakers on the way there. Yes, it'd likely sound a bit different from a designated 7.1 system (this one would use the rear surrounds a lot more as they'd behave like a 5.1 system would, but you'd have panning through your sides as well.

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I have no interest in putting additional speakers between the Front Wides and the Surrounds. I have enough speakers in the front half of my room.
You wouldn't add any new speakers, you'd just change what goes to the rears and put the extracted info to your regular/side surrounds instead.

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Given the lack of wides support in movies, I think you'd be better off extracting front wides from sides and mains and using discrete rears as I'm doing. They then also work with DSU and even Auro-3D.
I get that. However, if I were going to extract Front Wides from between the front mains and the Surrounds, I'd wouldn't want to use a pair of cheapo DPL AVRs (which is what I already have on hand). I'd want a couple of high-quality AVRs with low noise floor and sufficient power to drive my mains at high volume.

Right now, I have a couple of old Marantz receivers from 2003. They were budget units, aren't very powerful, and noticeably elevate the noise floor. They're good enough to power six heights in my Scatmos system, and would probably be good enough for Surrounds and Surround Backs if I repurposed them on the ground level, but I don't want them touching my front towers. The noise they add would be too distracting coming from the front of the room and the most important speakers in the system.
Just use the preouts on a cheap DPL processor and use a nice amp with it instead. I don't see why there would necessarily be a high noise floor. I don't have hiss pouring out my rear wides or anything and my second row sits right next to them. I got a 65W per channel class D amp for like $70. It's surprisingly good. 65W is plenty for a surround speaker. You wouldn't even likely get that much out of a Denon 8500 driving all channels at once. I've certainly had no issues running reference volume here with 17.1 channels.

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post #1895 of 2134 Old 05-29-2019, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
I get that. However, if I were going to extract Front Wides from between the front mains and the Surrounds, I'd wouldn't want to use a pair of cheapo DPL AVRs (which is what I already have on hand). I'd want a couple of high-quality AVRs with low noise floor and sufficient power to drive my mains at high volume.

Right now, I have a couple of old Marantz receivers from 2003. They were budget units, aren't very powerful, and noticeably elevate the noise floor. They're good enough to power six heights in my Scatmos system, and would probably be good enough for Surrounds and Surround Backs if I repurposed them on the ground level, but I don't want them touching my front towers. The noise they add would be too distracting coming from the front of the room and the most important speakers in the system.
This is EXACTLY why I'm loathe to run a "standard" 7.1 base layer and do extraction of the wides. I am dubious about the idea of tampering with the LCR screen channels and routing them through some old cheapo AVR.

I've considered the idea of doing this but NOT powering the fronts/surrounds from the secondary AVRs. The upside is the original source signal is "pure" from the Denon X8500H to the fronts/surrounds, the downside is the extracted wide info is somewhat duplicative for sounds that are common to Front + Surround since they aren't being subtracted from the 2ch source input for the 2-to-3 extract. I'm not sure this is a bad thing though since it effectively makes it a 3 speaker array with a hard speaker in the middle vs. a 2 speaker array with a phantom image in the middle.

A side benefit of the approach we were originally discussing is that you can have a one-box solution -- a single AVR will be able to extract the SB signal and amplify the SB speakers, so it's more convenient vs. trying to get a stack of old PLI/PLII receivers (or processors + amps).

That said, I'm still not 100% clear on the distinction between what Sanjay and Roger are talking about. Roger is clearly saying that the idea of 2 in > 4 out will generate accurate rear panning with a stereo back surround extracted from the Surround L/R as inputs.... but will this work as is, or is Sanjay correct that it requires additional hardware for signal inversion to get the intended effect?

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post #1896 of 2134 Old 05-29-2019, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
The idea is instead of trying to create rear speakers when you have no real information to do so, you instead use the "side" surround (normally just called surround when no rears are used) and connect it to DPL processors along with the front wides (or front mains) and you extract a channel in-between which become your surround sides.

In other words, your rear speakers get the surround signal from a 5.1 + FW setup and the regular surrounds (or sides if you like) get the extracted signal in-between them. This ensures any sounds traveling/panning to the back of the room pass through your side speakers on the way there. Yes, it'd likely sound a bit different from a designated 7.1 system (this one would use the rear surrounds a lot more as they'd behave like a 5.1 system would, but you'd have panning through your sides as well.
I assume in this scenario you'd have to move the Surround channels back behind the seating, rather than at 90-degrees.

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Just use the preouts on a cheap DPL processor and use a nice amp with it instead. I don't see why there would necessarily be a high noise floor.
So you'd use the analog pre-outs from one AVR to feed a second AVR, then use the analog pre-outs from that receiver to feed an amp. And you don't see this raising the noise floor? Perhaps it's my speakers, or perhaps I'm just very sensitive to it, but my height channels definitely have more hiss when using two AVRs for Scatmos than they do when only using the main AVR for 7.1.4.

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post #1897 of 2134 Old 05-29-2019, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
Out of phase is still out of phase. "Uncorrelated" really just means out of phase.
Yes, but I hope you agree that opposite polarity is a special case of "out-of-phase". IOW, all uncorrelated signals are out of phase, but not all out-of-phase signals are uncorrelated (zero correlation). They can be negatively correlated.

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The degree to which a sound is out of phase can be easily measured (e.g. on an oscilloscope). This is used to create "stereo" rear output in DPLII. DPLI soundtracks typically went 180 degrees out of phase if they wanted to use the rear speakers.
Same for PLII encoding, BTW.

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I think you'd find very little content if you extracted out of phase (i.e. Surround output) using one DPLII decoder and its surround outputs from an extracted extra channel (i.e. Center output is say front wides and you want to use the surround outputs for even more speakers). That is because the out of phase content for surround is the in phase content for the mains. They've already been extracted so there's not much left there.
I may not be following, but if you are saying that it would be fruitless to try to further decode the surrounds of a 2-ch source decoded with PLII, that is correct. The 7.1 mode of PLIIx is completely different for 2-ch sources, and does not use a secondary logic decoder as is done for 5.1 sources.

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Now with discrete surround that's not necessarily the case as they could put full phase sounds in just those speakers, but this isn't likely to be common.
The point of processing the surrounds is not to extract the out-of-phase content, but to ignore that and derive intermediate speaker feeds between the source channels for signals with correlation from 0 to 1. Can derive one new output as in a "Surround EX" style 6.1 layout, or derive two as in a PLIIx style 7.1 layout. Two is better than one when it comes to rear surround speakers for various well known reasons.

Quote:
But where would you put those speakers? The other side if the room (i.e. Behind each set of front wides?). That's the other set of front wides so shouldn't it already be on that side of the room? Without decoding, it'd be forward/backward of the speakers in question (behind front wall and further back into room beyond the side surrounds. Again, there's already speakers there (rear surrounds). In other words, it's mostly moot, IMO.
If there are sufficient speakers in place to produce the degree of localization desired, no need to add further decoding and intermediate speakers. The only motive for all of this is to produce real sound images in place of phantom images to better solidify localization for various listening positions. Not to move sounds to different locations.

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The best use is center extraction between pairs.
That's indeed the best if you want one new output between a given pair. If you want two outputs between the pair, you need a 4-ch decoder.

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post #1898 of 2134 Old 05-29-2019, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
That said, I'm still not 100% clear on the distinction between what Sanjay and Roger are talking about. Roger is clearly saying that the idea of 2 in > 4 out will generate accurate rear panning with a stereo back surround extracted from the Surround L/R as inputs.... but will this work as is, or is Sanjay correct that it requires additional hardware for signal inversion to get the intended effect?
AVR with PLII, configured for 5.1 layout, playing 2-channel source with panning from left to right. Normally the pan goes through the Centre speaker when traveling from left speaker to right speaker. IF the 2 channels are uncorrelated (out of phase), the pan will go through the 2 Surround speakers when traveling from left speaker to right speaker. How to decorrelate the 2 channels? Flip the phase of one of the channels. Now they are out of phase with each other (even when the content is the same in both channels).

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post #1899 of 2134 Old 05-29-2019, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
That said, I'm still not 100% clear on the distinction between what Sanjay and Roger are talking about. Roger is clearly saying that the idea of 2 in > 4 out will generate accurate rear panning with a stereo back surround extracted from the Surround L/R as inputs.... but will this work as is, or is Sanjay correct that it requires additional hardware for signal inversion to get the intended effect?
Roger and Sanjay agree that additional processing (signal inverters) is needed for this special 2 in /4 out case of PLII decoding. I am suggesting the cleanest way to get there is with a balanced I/O PLII processor, as it can be rigged to flip polarity.
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post #1900 of 2134 Old 05-29-2019, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
The idea is instead of trying to create rear speakers when you have no real information to do so, you instead use the "side" surround (normally just called surround when no rears are used) and connect it to DPL processors along with the front wides (or front mains) and you extract a channel in-between which become your surround sides.

In other words, your rear speakers get the surround signal from a 5.1 + FW setup and the regular surrounds (or sides if you like) get the extracted signal in-between them. This ensures any sounds traveling/panning to the back of the room pass through your side speakers on the way there. Yes, it'd likely sound a bit different from a designated 7.1 system (this one would use the rear surrounds a lot more as they'd behave like a 5.1 system would, but you'd have panning through your sides as well.
I assume in this scenario you'd have to move the Surround channels back behind the seating, rather than at 90-degrees.
You'd use a standard 9.1 layout, but feed the surround signal to the rear speakers, not the sides (like 5.1.4) and feed the extracted signal to the sides.

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Just use the preouts on a cheap DPL processor and use a nice amp with it instead. I don't see why there would necessarily be a high noise floor.
So you'd use the analog pre-outs from one AVR to feed a second AVR, then use the analog pre-outs from that receiver to feed an amp. And you don't see this raising the noise floor? Perhaps it's my speakers, or perhaps I'm just very sensitive to it, but my height channels definitely have more hiss when using two AVRs for Scatmos than they do when only using the main AVR for 7.1.4.
Sure, it'd be higher, but how much higher. The external amp should be quieter than a cheap AVR. I get a bit of hiss from my front heights, but it's not audible from the seats. I get no audible hiss from the Onkyo top middles, though so the less preamp trips the better (front heights have three by then, top middle only two).

What Batpig mentioned will work with arrayed results. It's similar to using an active mixer (summed matrix). That's what I use for front and rear wides. There's some advantages to matrixed/arrayed, IMO and some disadvantages. I don't know I'd prefer discrete at this point, especially for the rear wides (aka surround #2 ). Auro in particular gets a boost with a matrix.

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post #1901 of 2134 Old 05-29-2019, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Roger and Sanjay agree that additional processing (signal inverters) is needed for this special 2 in /4 out case of PLII decoding. I am suggesting the cleanest way to get there is with a balanced I/O PLII processor, as it can be rigged to flip polarity.
Roger, Roger.

That may be the "cleanest" way, but certainly not the cheapest or easiest. Sounds like the 2-to-3 center extract for SB is the cheapest/easiest way to maintain proper panning / directionality, and the only downside is that it's mono vs stereo.

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post #1902 of 2134 Old 05-29-2019, 01:13 PM
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When Neural:X derives Front Wides, does it simply extract the common info from between the front mains and the Surrounds the same as a theoretical ProLogic decoder stuck in the middle would? Or does Neural:X use some other fancy algorithm to determine what and how much info goes to those FW speakers?

Front Wide speakers are not necessarily recommended to be placed at exactly 45-degrees, between the mains and the Surrounds. Isn't the recommendation that they be closer to the mains?

Subjectively, the benefit I hear from using Front Wides is that they broaden the front soundstage, especially music. Is there anything more to it than a straightforward center extraction between channels?

I'm just wondering if ProLogic extraction between the mains and Surrounds is really a substitute for Neural:X.

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post #1903 of 2134 Old 05-29-2019, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
When Neural:X derives Front Wides, does it simply extract the common info from between the front mains and the Surrounds the same as a theoretical ProLogic decoder stuck in the middle would?
Yes.
Quote:
Front Wide speakers are not necessarily recommended to be placed at exactly 45-degrees, between the mains and the Surrounds. Isn't the recommendation that they be closer to the mains?
DTS:X has Wides at 60°, exactly between Fronts (30°) and Sides (90°). The Atmos speaker layout isn't based on degrees. There are 2 speakers between each Front and Side; the one closer to the Front is the Wide speaker.
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I'm just wondering if ProLogic extraction between the mains and Surrounds is really a substitute for Neural:X.
Yes. Buuuuut...

Keep in mind that if you are extracting Wides when playing Atmos soundtracks, the sounds intended for the Wides will typically have been downmixed to the Fronts, so there will be no way to extract them afterwards. Sound will come out of the Wides, just not the objects intended for those locations. It's different for DTS:X soundtracks, where sounds intended for the Wides locations are split evenly between the Fronts & Sides, making it easy to extract afterwards.
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post #1904 of 2134 Old 05-29-2019, 02:02 PM
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That may be the "cleanest" way, but certainly not the cheapest or easiest. Sounds like the 2-to-3 center extract for SB is the cheapest/easiest way to maintain proper panning / directionality, and the only downside is that it's mono vs stereo.
Nothing about Scatmos is clean and easy. That's half the fun, I guess!

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post #1905 of 2134 Old 05-29-2019, 02:15 PM
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Sorry I am late to this party. If I am reading the last several posts correctly, it is desired to use a PLII decoder to convert 2 surround channels into 4. We know this will work, as it's what is done in the 5.1 to 7.1 PLIIx upmix case.







Consider a stereo L to R pan. The PLII decoder will produce 3 outputs, L to C to R. That's the In-phase pan in the figure. In order to pan around the back, the stereo L and R channels need to be opposite polarity. Then the pan will span 4 outputs, L to Ls to Rs to R, the Out-of-phase pan in the figure. The means we can produce 4 coherent outputs from the stereo panned input.







This is achieved by applying inverters before and after the core PLII decoder. Further, the decoder is set to "phantom center" and Movie mode.







I hope the above shows an outboard decoder can be used quite effectively.
Roger, this info is revelatory to me! Thank you. Our discussions have always focused on center extraction that this never came up.

Question for anyone. How do processors with only a single pair of overhead speakers (x.x.2)? Let's just consider a hard printed 7.1.4 track for simplicity. Is there any matrix encoding [with Dts:X or Atmos] that could be extracted using DPLIIx 4ch decoding?
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post #1906 of 2134 Old 05-29-2019, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
This is EXACTLY why I'm loathe to run a "standard" 7.1 base layer and do extraction of the wides. I am dubious about the idea of tampering with the LCR screen channels and routing them through some old cheapo AVR.
Me three.

Back around Spring '17 Special Wides, Side Surrounds, and Special Side Surrounds were discussed in this thread. The best summary is probably to look at @Nalleh 's "Franken-SWAtmos" setup.

I believe the ADI's [partial] implementation of these positions is actually something Trinnov owners have clamored for and not yet received (what's the latest?): All three positions playback the side-surround channel but each render objects uniquely, according to their position. I believe this was/is the intention of the creators of Atmos. Unfortunately to support each position it's a franken-kluge as multiple SSPs [without knowledge of each other] must be used with potential for output duplication.

I see the best ScrAtmos solution being an ADI-based processor setup for 5.1 + Wides with Rear extraction performed by by PLIIx 4ch processing. This could be a relatively simple solution for AV8805/AVR-X8500 owners if only they would allow for 5.1 + Wides to be configured with 7.1.6. @batpig have you communicated with D&M regarding this 7.1.6 limitation? I'm curious to see what CEDIA '19 brings for the D&M flagships. Dts:X Pro is a safe bet. Could true 9.1.6 be on the way (purely hope & conjecture on my part)?
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post #1907 of 2134 Old 05-29-2019, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
I hope the above shows an outboard decoder can be used quite effectively.
EDIT:

OK, I think after looking at it again, I see what you're trying to get at. So you don't use 'center' extraction at all, but just give it the two main channels with the inverter and then use the stereo surround output to extract TWO extra speakers instead? In other words, if PLIIx gets a pan between the two speakers, it doesn't pan between the side surrounds, but instead goes to the rear speakers and ultimately pans between them. So instead of using a circle, you'd basically stretch it into a line instead (i.e. equivalent of putting the rear surrounds in a straight line between the side surrounds instead of further back into the room) and it would have to pass through them for the sound to get to the other side surround during a pan. Thus, for say front + rear (5.1) inputs, the surround outputs would essentially be front wide and side surround (or side surround and side surround #2 depending on their placement)? Or if you used FW + SURROUND with surround in the rear position you could have side surround #1 and Side Surround #2 in addition to front wide and rears. You wouldn't use the center output at all from the decoder. Is that the basic gist?


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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Yes. DTS:X has Wides at 60°, exactly between Fronts (30°) and Sides (90°). The Atmos speaker layout isn't based on degrees. There are 2 speakers between each Front and Side; the one closer to the Front is the Wide speaker. Yes. Buuuuut...

Keep in mind that if you are extracting Wides when playing Atmos soundtracks, the sounds intended for the Wides will typically have been downmixed to the Fronts, so there will be no way to extract them afterwards. Sound will come out of the Wides, just not the objects intended for those locations. It's different for DTS:X soundtracks, where sounds intended for the Wides locations are split evenly between the Fronts & Sides, making it easy to extract afterwards.
I don't know about this 'typically' business in that sense that unless the 'snap to speaker' function has been enabled (seems relatively rare to me and only Hunter Killer and Gravity in Atmos come to mind as using it that I've encountered), you can extract it the same as Neural X, DSU and DTS:X and even 5.1. The ONLY time Atmos 'wides' are impossible to extract are when the 'snap to' function is used and short of sounds just appearing there, you will normally know when it's used most of the time because it will not pan in-between speakers. Pans will 'snap' to the next speaker after it passes the 50% point. It's possible many movies use it just at the speakers (with no panning), but without a direct comparison of every sound, it's impossible to know from memory as you'd have to compare them with and without wides. The original 9.1.6 Atmos demo had snap to turned on with wides, but the updated MP4 version has it turned off so extracted/matrixed wides function fine in that demo.

Meanwhile with "true front wides" you get no output whatsoever in those speakers with DSU, Auro-3D and true rendered 5.1 -> 7.1 and none from Neural X (including DTS:X + Neural X) if it's passed the 11-channel limit. Weighing the options, I personally think an extracted front wide comes out ahead more often than not.

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The purple circles are where you'd normally place rear speakers in relationship to a traditional use of the decoder and the 'x' is the center (with orientation in mind as if you were facing the front right and side surround channels as if they were left/right mains).
It is not relevant to think in terms of normal surround decoder operation when we are re-purposing them for these targeted channel extractions.

If a single new output signal is desired, the decoder is configured for 3 outputs. The 2-in, 3-out setup. The surrounds do not exist. And there is likewise no relevance for out-of-phase signals. We are only concerned with in-phase panned signals. Let's keep it simple.

In the context of the 3-ch decoder, the L/R input becomes L/C/R outputs.

Now comes the substitution of channel names -- in place of L/R input and L/C/R output, we adopt the names of the channels we are upmixing. The PL decoder does not care, it operates the same regardless of names.

In the context of the source 7.1 channels, we can extract a wide output between front/side speakers; or a rear-side output between side/rear speakers; or a center-rear output between Lb/Rb speakers, and so forth.

In every case, the newly derived channel should drive a speaker bisecting the two source speakers. That's it.

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It is not relevant to think in terms of normal surround decoder operation when we are re-purposing them for these targeted channel extractions.

If a single new output signal is desired, the decoder is configured for 3 outputs. The 2-in, 3-out setup. The surrounds do not exist. And there is likewise no relevance for out-of-phase signals. We are only concerned with in-phase panned signals. Let's keep it simple.

In the context of the 3-ch decoder, the L/R input becomes L/C/R outputs.

Now comes the substitution of channel names -- in place of L/R input and L/C/R output, we adopt the names of the channels we are upmixing. The PL decoder does not care, it operates the same regardless of names.

In the context of the source 7.1 channels, we can extract a wide output between front/side speakers; or a rear-side output between side/rear speakers; or a center-rear output between Lb/Rb speakers, and so forth.

In every case, the newly derived channel should drive a speaker bisecting the two source speakers. That's it.
As in my edited post, so you're saying the 4-channel decoder ignores the 'center' output and instead derives two speakers between the two inputs (with an inverter) instead of one as the center channel does (essentially placing two PLIIx style 'rear' channels in a line between the two speakers)? If that works reliably, it would indeed be useful in some setups. The problem I see for a traditional 7.1 setup is the extra channels you typically want are in front of and behind the side surround (i.e. front and rear wides), not really two in a row. You could use 5.1 and extract "front wide + side surround" that way, I suppose, but you couldn't get front wide, side surround #1 , side surround #2 all with one decoder as that's three in-between. You'd still need at least two decoders to do it as far as I can tell. It'd be an interesting way to stretch a set of 8 overhead channels, though (say front + rear height gives you front/rear 'tops' output instead of 'top middle' from just one set of outputs).

Or am I still not following you?

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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Back around Spring '17 Special Wides, Side Surrounds, and Special Side Surrounds were discussed in this thread. The best summary is probably to look at @Nalleh's "Franken-SWAtmos" setup.

I believe the ADI's [partial] implementation of these positions is actually something Trinnov owners have clamored for and not yet received (what's the latest?): All three positions playback the side-surround channel but each render objects uniquely, according to their position. I believe this was/is the intention of the creators of Atmos.
Of the speaker locations you listed, only Side Surrounds exist (started with 7.1). Haven't seen Special Wides or Special Side Surrounds listed for any format. Is that AVS nomenclature, like "Scatmos"? The speaker locations forward & rearward of the Side Surrounds are labeled by Dolby as Side Surround 1 and Side Surround 2, respectively.

The home version of Atmos was intended to behave like the cinema version when it came to surrounds: each channel would array to multiple speakers (3 Sides, 4 Rears, 5 Heights), but objects could land on or pan through individual speakers. Dolby apparently never implemented this, otherwise it would have been on the Trinnov by now. I'm guessing >9.1.6 configurations are tiny fraction (and therefore a low priority) in the consumer market. Would still be a very useful feature for custom installers when doing with multi-row theatres.
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
As in my edited post, so you're saying the 4-channel decoder ignores the 'center' output and instead derives two speakers between the two inputs (with an inverter) instead of one as the center channel does (essentially placing two PLIIx style 'rear' channels in a line between the two speakers)?
Yes. Instead of a 3-output decoder with L/C/R, we have a 4 output decoder with L/Lc/Rc/R.

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If that works reliably, it would indeed be useful in some setups.
It's just as reliable as the 3-ch decoder.

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The problem I see for a traditional 7.1 setup is the extra channels you typically want are in front of and behind the side surround (i.e. front and rear wides), not really two in a row.
That's a matter of personal preference.

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You could use 5.1 and extract "front wide + side surround" that way, I suppose, but you couldn't get front wide, side surround no.1, side surround no.2 all with one decoder as that's three in-between.
Agreed. But then again, no one said you could. Is that a problem?

Quote:
You'd still need at least two decoders to do it as far as I can tell. It'd be an interesting way to stretch a set of 8 overhead channels, though (say front + rear height gives you front/rear 'tops' output instead of 'top middle' from just one set of outputs).
That could be done, yes.

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Or am I still not following you?
All good.

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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Let's just consider a hard printed 7.1.4 track for simplicity. Is there any matrix encoding [with Dts:X or Atmos] that could be extracted using DPLIIx 4ch decoding?
Can't think of any. But if you had a DTS track with a 5.1 base layer, where the Front channels are assumed to be at 30° and the Surround channel assumptions are 120°, you could use a 2-in 4-out matrix to feed the 2 speakers in between, since they are equally spaced apart, every 30°. See locations of L, Lw, Lss, Ls in diagram below. Those would be the 4 speakers fed by the 2-channel input L & Ls. It wouldn't have to be PLIIx matrix, just any 2-in 4-out matrix.


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The home version of Atmos was intended to behave like the cinema version when it came to surrounds: each channel would array to multiple speakers (3 Sides, 4 Rears, 5 Heights), but objects could land on or pan through individual speakers. Dolby apparently never implemented this, otherwise it would have been on the Trinnov by now. I'm guessing >9.1.6 configurations are tiny fraction (and therefore a low priority) in the consumer market. Would still be a very useful feature for custom installers when doing with multi-row theatres.
All it would take is a few active mixers and y-adapters to implement it yourself with a Trinnov (combine each individual channel with the arrayed channels desired and output to amp then to speaker). This certainly wouldn't be a big deal for a high-end installer to implement with a Trinnov.

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post #1914 of 2134 Old 05-29-2019, 05:02 PM
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Rodger could I use a Denon A-100 ( which I happen to have one thats never been out of the box ) instead of the 4 channel decoder? If so how would I wire it up? Also would I still need the inverters? I know nothing about scatmos but would like to learn. Thanks in advance Bob

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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Of the speaker locations you listed, only Side Surrounds exist (started with 7.1). Haven't seen Special Wides or Special Side Surrounds listed for any format. Is that AVS nomenclature, like "Scatmos"? The speaker locations forward & rearward of the Side Surrounds are labeled by Dolby as Side Surround 1 and Side Surround 2, respectively.
Yes, AVS nomenclature.

The SSPs I have the most experience with (AV7702mk2 & MP-50) use the 4th-gen ADI decoder and both behave the same depending on how the floor layer is configured. With standard 7.1.4 the side surrounds correspond to SS2. When 5.1 + Wides is configured, I believe the Wides correspond to SS1 and the Side Surrounds correspond to SS3. Only in 9.1.2 do the Wides correspond to the [transitional/real/proper?] Atmos Wides.

SS1 (Special Wides) SS2 & SS3 (Special Surrounds) are an array of Side Surrounds but independent in object handling. This is what @Nalleh 's "franken" setup does but I believe the Altitude does not array in this manner (but should according to the spec). Please correct me where I have erred.

I now have a Bryston SP4 (StormAudio ISP w/TI decoder). It only allows Wides in a 9.x.x config… less confusion.
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post #1916 of 2134 Old 05-29-2019, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Of the speaker locations you listed, only Side Surrounds exist (started with 7.1). Haven't seen Special Wides or Special Side Surrounds listed for any format. Is that AVS nomenclature, like "Scatmos"? The speaker locations forward & rearward of the Side Surrounds are labeled by Dolby as Side Surround 1 and Side Surround 2, respectively.

The home version of Atmos was intended to behave like the cinema version when it came to surrounds: each channel would array to multiple speakers (3 Sides, 4 Rears, 5 Heights), but objects could land on or pan through individual speakers. Dolby apparently never implemented this, otherwise it would have been on the Trinnov by now. I'm guessing >9.1.6 configurations are tiny fraction (and therefore a low priority) in the consumer market. Would still be a very useful feature for custom installers when doing with multi-row theatres.
It is just some names we came up with to differenciate between the two setup. It is basically a 9.x.x base layer from one AVR and a 5+wides.x.x from another AVR on top of each other, like so:



The "Special Wides" are a mix of side surround and wides, while the "Special Surround" are a mix of side and rear surround.
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post #1917 of 2134 Old 05-29-2019, 07:34 PM
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@Nalleh - So do you get some duplicate information in the tops versus heights since you are using two AVRs that can't possibly know the other one is rendering a different location? Does that blend really well?

I've been thinking about adding my 7010 back into the mix with true front wides rendered but a mixer with an option to do matrixed (for stereo and non-compliant soundtracks) and then render the front/rear tops (add two more sets of ceiling speakers for 10 overheads total). The thing is that to do the tops, I'd have to cut the surround rears on one AVR which would mean DTS would play some funky games with Neural X a bit and it would copy sides to wides (not unlike matrixed to some extent as it's already got sides mixed in the wides as it is now). Otherwise, the only benefit I would get is true wides on 11.1.6 with extracted top middle and matrixed surround #2 . I could move surround #2 to extraction, but that would mean powering sides and rears from external amps (there goes my laserdisc player and game cube to make room in the racks, but that would give me almost fully discrete 'scatmos' 11.1.6 with no matrixed anything other than the raised dialog effect. It would all be steered logic or true discrete. I like the idea of 10 overheads, though. 11 on the ground and 10 at or on the ceiling....

I am afraid it'd be a bit of a wiring mess for the 4 extra ceiling speakers since I can't really string the wires through the ceiling (between floors). I'd have to go flat tape wires or something.

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post #1918 of 2134 Old 05-29-2019, 08:07 PM
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^^ Yes, it is duplicated, but there are differences in tops and heights. Still it works very well and pans works as they should. It seems more precise and pronounced than a normal x.x.4 setup. I even think it works better than x.x.6 in the 8500.

But that’s IMO

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post #1919 of 2134 Old 05-29-2019, 10:41 PM
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If anyone saw the lengthy post that I had up for a few minutes, please disregard. I think I may have done something critically wrong in my testing and will need to start over.

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post #1920 of 2134 Old 05-30-2019, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
The SSPs I have the most experience with (AV7702mk2 & MP-50) use the 4th-gen ADI decoder and both behave the same depending on how the floor layer is configured. With standard 7.1.4 the side surrounds correspond to SS2. When 5.1 + Wides is configured, I believe the Wides correspond to SS1 and the Side Surrounds correspond to SS3. Only in 9.1.2 do the Wides correspond to the [transitional/real/proper?] Atmos Wides.

SS1 (Special Wides) SS2 & SS3 (Special Surrounds) are an array of Side Surrounds but independent in object handling. This is what @Nalleh 's "franken" setup does but I believe the Altitude does not array in this manner (but should according to the spec). Please correct me where I have erred.
That wasn't my experience with the AV7702mkII when configured for 5.1.4+Wides. The physical layout had the Wides around 60° from centre and the Surrounds roughly 120° from centre (30° forward & rearward of me), with no speakers at 90° from centre (directly to my sides). During playback of an Atmos track, the Rear channel info went to the Surround speakers rearward of me, the Wides object info went to the Wide speakers forward of me, and the Side channel info was split to both speakers, causing it to phantom image directly at my sides (where the Side speakers would have been). Like having 9 speakers in the base layer, except the Sides are phantom imaged rather than a hard source (speaker). Nothing more complicated than that. No rendering to the SS1 or SS2 locations (there is no SS3).

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