Beyond 7.1.4... Multi-AVR set-up for Immersive Audio - Page 72 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 486Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #2131 of 2166 Old 10-19-2019, 04:01 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Mashie Saldana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 2,262
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1244 Post(s)
Liked: 1083
It looks like I will run a 9.1.4 setup after one of the Dolby PL2 AVR's decided to die from old age. No point buying a replacement when the rest of the electronics will go native 9.1.6 in a year or two.

It will be interesting to see if there is much difference in the sound immersion by dropping the top middles.

Tower Cinema - 9.1.6 in a 12'x12' room
Input : Nvidia Shield TV, Panasonic DMP-UB400
Magic : Marantz SR7010, Marantz SR6010, 2x NAD T743
Output : Panasonic TX65EZ952B, SVS PB13 Ultra, Monitor Audio GSLCR 2xGS20 2xGS10 4xGSFX 6xBX1
Mashie Saldana is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2132 of 2166 Old 10-19-2019, 04:44 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MagnumX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 2,059
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1184 Post(s)
Liked: 697
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
It looks like I will run a 9.1.4 setup after one of the Dolby PL2 AVR's decided to die from old age. No point buying a replacement when the rest of the electronics will go native 9.1.6 in a year or two.

It will be interesting to see if there is much difference in the sound immersion by dropping the top middles.
You never tried turning them off before? In my 24' long room, the middle area becomes very weak without top middle. In a 12' long room, I'm sure it will do better.

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 11-01-19)
MagnumX is online now  
post #2133 of 2166 Old 10-19-2019, 05:36 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Mashie Saldana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 2,262
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1244 Post(s)
Liked: 1083
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
You never tried turning them off before? In my 24' long room, the middle area becomes very weak without top middle. In a 12' long room, I'm sure it will do better.
Correct, I never saw the point in messing around with the setup once it was all up and running.

At least one bonus now is that the heights can have Audyssey enabled for the first time.

Tower Cinema - 9.1.6 in a 12'x12' room
Input : Nvidia Shield TV, Panasonic DMP-UB400
Magic : Marantz SR7010, Marantz SR6010, 2x NAD T743
Output : Panasonic TX65EZ952B, SVS PB13 Ultra, Monitor Audio GSLCR 2xGS20 2xGS10 4xGSFX 6xBX1
Mashie Saldana is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2134 of 2166 Old 10-19-2019, 08:11 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MagnumX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 2,059
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1184 Post(s)
Liked: 697
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
Correct, I never saw the point in messing around with the setup once it was all up and running.
For me, the point was to see how it compared and whether I wasted my time with scatmos. In my room, it was ljke having a gazebo blocking much of the sound in the middle. The angles were too far to support strong phantom imaging.

But I also tried 5.1.4 using front height and top middle (and true Auro-3D as such as well which I can switch with a button on a dual speaker selector switch that sends rear height to surround height instead or to both as an array or extracted top middle to surround height, letting Auro-3D work as 9.1.6 with matrixed front wides and arrayed surround #2 ).

5.1.4 (with or without the matrixed front wides) limits my room to 12' only, essentially working only with half the seats correctly. It shortens how far back rear effects go like I'm in a smaller room, but otherwise still sounds great for the front row. In other words, it images just fine with four overheads. It just sounds smaller.

The full 24' room length with 11.1.6 sounds very cool with movies with a lot of rear effects as the sounds travel twice as far, something not easily faked with phantom imaging, but if course it sounds like a rectangle rather than a square for things like the Atmos helicopter demo due to the 12' width of the room. I think it shows Atmos varies in some respects by room dimensions/setup even if scaled correctly in terms of speakers to room size and angles.

Quote:
At least one bonus now is that the heights can have Audyssey enabled for the first time.
I decided to test Audyssey using matrixed and Scatmos turned on and see how it did by comparison. Since arrays interact anyway, (like having larger than life speakers with multiple drivers) it seems to me getting the flattest overall response for the primary seating area would still likely be better than no correction at all. After all, with real material instead of just individual test tones, the speakers are going to interact with interference anyway so why not take advantage of it? It might be more of an issue with scatmos than matrixed since it's more discrete with less overlap, but you could correct those channels after the fact with their own room correction for just those channels, assuming you don't destroy the center extraction in the process with the primary overheads. That wasn't an issue here and I think the room sounds and measures better (REW used) here with Audyssey on than disabled.

One could always just use Audyssey up to the Schrodinger frequency (or sub only if all else fails) and likely avoid the issue either way.

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 11-01-19)
MagnumX is online now  
post #2135 of 2166 Old 11-02-2019, 04:06 PM
Newbie
 
wilyearthworm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Blackpool. UK
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Hi. I've been running a 7.2.6 setup for a while now using two Yamaha DSR-70 Pro Digital Surround Decoder's providing phantom middle height channels. I've now invested in an Emotiva XMC-2 so if anyone would like to purchase my PL2 processors please drop me a line :-)

Dave
wilyearthworm is offline  
post #2136 of 2166 Old 11-02-2019, 05:42 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Mashie Saldana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 2,262
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1244 Post(s)
Liked: 1083
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilyearthworm View Post
I've now invested in an Emotiva XMC-2
Good luck I hope you don't suffer from the common bugs that appear to plague Emotiva kit. There are quite a few horror stories posted on these boards.

Tower Cinema - 9.1.6 in a 12'x12' room
Input : Nvidia Shield TV, Panasonic DMP-UB400
Magic : Marantz SR7010, Marantz SR6010, 2x NAD T743
Output : Panasonic TX65EZ952B, SVS PB13 Ultra, Monitor Audio GSLCR 2xGS20 2xGS10 4xGSFX 6xBX1
Mashie Saldana is offline  
post #2137 of 2166 Old 11-02-2019, 05:45 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Mashie Saldana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 2,262
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1244 Post(s)
Liked: 1083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
It looks like I will run a 9.1.4 setup after one of the Dolby PL2 AVR's decided to die from old age. No point buying a replacement when the rest of the electronics will go native 9.1.6 in a year or two.

It will be interesting to see if there is much difference in the sound immersion by dropping the top middles.
Well it seems the PLII receiver decided to stay alive for a while longer.

Tower Cinema - 9.1.6 in a 12'x12' room
Input : Nvidia Shield TV, Panasonic DMP-UB400
Magic : Marantz SR7010, Marantz SR6010, 2x NAD T743
Output : Panasonic TX65EZ952B, SVS PB13 Ultra, Monitor Audio GSLCR 2xGS20 2xGS10 4xGSFX 6xBX1
Mashie Saldana is offline  
post #2138 of 2166 Old 11-02-2019, 06:26 PM
Newbie
 
wilyearthworm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Blackpool. UK
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilyearthworm View Post
I've now invested in an Emotiva XMC-2
Good luck I hope you don't suffer from the common bugs that appear to plague Emotiva kit. There are quite a few horror stories posted on these boards.
I'm over the moon with it. No bugs and the sound quality is out of this world. Don't believe the Emotiva doomsayers who just repeat scare stories 😁😁😁
wilyearthworm is offline  
post #2139 of 2166 Old 11-09-2019, 04:44 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Geraldton - 250miles from Perth Western Australia
Posts: 415
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 216 Post(s)
Liked: 106
So I started to read this thread and read Nallehs post on daisy chaining a 2nd Atmos AVR and rushed out and bought a 2nd Atmos AVR. I set it up as TM while my other AVR ran TF and TR.
It didn't work as everything came out of the TM
I then continued to read this thread and found out other people had already found this flaw - shoulda kept reading before spending


So I then read about the little standalone Pro-Logic boxes that were posted up as a possible solution and decided to buy 3 of them. Not much was said about them after the initial couple ofposts discussing their possibilities.


But I persevered and have managed to set them up a treat :


TFR and TRR pre-outs from my 7.1.4 AVR to one PLII box, TFL and TRL to another PLII box. Boxes set to 5.1 to get the extrapolated Centre channel output.
L and R of each box to Front L&R and Surround Back L&R Multi-Channel input in my spare 7.1 AVR
Centre out of each box to input (L&R) of 3rd PL II box. Again get the extrapolated Centre Channel and now send LCR to Surround L&R and Centre of Multi-Channel input of 7.1 AVR.


This gives me TFR, TFL, TMR, TML, TRR, TRL and a VOG centre height speaker


And it works !! The beauty of this system is that you can now apply any settings you like to the 7 height speakers in the AVR as the AVR is not doing any PLII processing so doesn't care if the source is not identical. This has allowed me to reduce the VOG SPL by -9db and would also allow me to set any Auto Room Correction, speaker sizes, distances etc - or it would if I could find the remote


My room is 14.5' x 20' x 9' and my speakers are all pretty much positioned exactly to Dolby Atmos guidelines except for the TF and TR heights as they are currently mounted in the top 4 corners of the room (so Heights, not Tops) and they are at only 30deg elevation or so, not the recommended 45.


So how does it perform I hear you all asking ? Well, very well indeed. As alluded to earlier the VOG speaker was a bit dominant and at first I thought it sounded better without it, and it did sound good without, with my TMs doing a good job of phantom imaging. But I persevered again and tried different source material to compare and it turned out the first one I tried had a lot of sound naturally directed to VOG (obviously not directly as Atmos doesn't support VOG but PLII extraction had lots of stereo sounds). So I tried the Atmos demo Audiosphere clip and once I reduced the VOG SPL is was superb.


I managed to do comparison between the 4, 6 and 7 heights and just running 4 sounded really good and they did a good job of phantom imaging sounds, but 6 and then 7 sounded even better, especially for the real ambient sounds like rain fall and leaves rustling etc. Much more feeling of sound ALL around you with no gaps in the soundfield, more realistic and immersive.


Highly recommend doing this if you can, especially since my total outlay was $60 for all 3 PLII boxes, $15 for 3 mains powered USB adapters (stops the PLII boxes from humming), $20 for 3 RCA to 3.5mm Stereo cables and I paid $70 for the old Yamaha RX-V750 AVR a few years back. Total of $165. Not true 7.1.7 but pretty damn close for not much money.


And in case anyone is wondering why I went VOG - it is because it was already there from my previous AURO-3D layout and I was determined to use it
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	7.1.7 SETUP.png
Views:	22
Size:	20.8 KB
ID:	2638526  
NBPk402 likes this.

Last edited by niterida; 11-09-2019 at 10:45 AM.
niterida is offline  
post #2140 of 2166 Old 11-09-2019, 05:33 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Mashie Saldana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 2,262
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1244 Post(s)
Liked: 1083
Quote:
Originally Posted by niterida View Post
Highly recommend doing this if you can, especially since my total outlay was $40 for the 3 PLII boxes, $15 for 3 mains powered USB adapters (stops the PLII boxes from humming), $20 for 3 RCA to 3.5mm Stereo cables and I paid $70 for the old Yamaha RX-V750 AVR a few years back. Total of $150 or thereabouts. Not true 7.1.7 but pretty damn close for not much money.


And in case anyone is wondering why I went VOG - it is because it was already there from my previous AURO-3D layout and I was determined to use it
Welcome to the madhouse. Which PLII boxes are you using?

Tower Cinema - 9.1.6 in a 12'x12' room
Input : Nvidia Shield TV, Panasonic DMP-UB400
Magic : Marantz SR7010, Marantz SR6010, 2x NAD T743
Output : Panasonic TX65EZ952B, SVS PB13 Ultra, Monitor Audio GSLCR 2xGS20 2xGS10 4xGSFX 6xBX1
Mashie Saldana is offline  
post #2141 of 2166 Old 11-09-2019, 06:20 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Geraldton - 250miles from Perth Western Australia
Posts: 415
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 216 Post(s)
Liked: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
Welcome to the madhouse. Which PLII boxes are you using?

Just the cheap eBay ones - I think they were posted earlier in this thread.


The real madhouse will be once I complete my 3 x 15" full size BOSS riser and my 4 15" LLT subs to go with my current 4 x dual 4 3/4" Pioneer subs and 15" SGR (high-end Aussie speaker company) sub to make it a 7.12.7 system
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	s-l1600.jpg
Views:	20
Size:	55.7 KB
ID:	2638540  
Mashie Saldana and NBPk402 like this.

Last edited by niterida; 11-09-2019 at 06:23 AM.
niterida is offline  
post #2142 of 2166 Old 11-09-2019, 07:33 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
humbland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,531
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1070 Post(s)
Liked: 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by niterida View Post
Just the cheap eBay ones - I think they were posted earlier in this thread.
Congrats. I have been following this thread from the begining and hoping someone would be able to implement a solution using the stand alone PL2 decoders. Can you please clarify something? As I recall, the noise floor was too high with these. How did you get around this problem? When there is a low or no signal, is it completely silent?
Thanks
humbland is online now  
post #2143 of 2166 Old 11-09-2019, 08:49 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Geraldton - 250miles from Perth Western Australia
Posts: 415
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 216 Post(s)
Liked: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by humbland View Post
Congrats. I have been following this thread from the begining and hoping someone would be able to implement a solution using the stand alone PL2 decoders. Can you please clarify something? As I recall, the noise floor was too high with these. How did you get around this problem? When there is a low or no signal, is it completely silent?
Thanks
Yeah that's what the mains powered USB adapters are for. Powering them from the AVR USB socket made them hum like they were in a choir.
The better quality the adapter the quieter they are. I bought 3 cheapies from ebay but ended up using good Samsung and Sony ones from mobile phones to get rid of the noise almost completely.
Mashie Saldana likes this.
niterida is offline  
post #2144 of 2166 Old 11-09-2019, 09:12 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Nalleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 3,862
Mentioned: 334 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2661 Post(s)
Liked: 3648
^ If the boxes are set to 5.1, they also will extract a surround left and right from the stereo input. This surround content will be removed from your heights.

Dual Atmos Receivers - Atmos 13.1.8/DTS X 9.1.8/Auro 3D 13.1 - Denon AVCX8500H+AVRX7200WA - Klipsch+KEF - 6xSI18" - 12xJBL 12" w/6xSLAPS M12 downfiring VNF - 3x2 stacked Crowson MA - 4xBK-LFE - 6xNU6K(fan&trig mod) - Minidsp 10x10HD - Oppo UDP203 - XBox OneX - Apple TV4K - JVC RS600 Dreamscreen V2 120"- Philips 65OLED873.
Nalleh’s HT
Nalleh is offline  
post #2145 of 2166 Old 11-09-2019, 10:11 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Mashie Saldana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 2,262
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1244 Post(s)
Liked: 1083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
^ If the boxes are set to 5.1, they also will extract a surround left and right from the stereo input. This surround content will be removed from your heights.
I'm pretty sure the rear channel content in the 5.1 just is a copy of the fronts with some delay added, nothing should be removed.

Tower Cinema - 9.1.6 in a 12'x12' room
Input : Nvidia Shield TV, Panasonic DMP-UB400
Magic : Marantz SR7010, Marantz SR6010, 2x NAD T743
Output : Panasonic TX65EZ952B, SVS PB13 Ultra, Monitor Audio GSLCR 2xGS20 2xGS10 4xGSFX 6xBX1
Mashie Saldana is offline  
post #2146 of 2166 Old 11-09-2019, 10:27 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MagnumX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 2,059
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1184 Post(s)
Liked: 697
I'll say one more time that you don't technically need pricey (by comparison) PLII decoders to do 'Scatmos'.

PLI decoders work perfectly fine for center extraction (there is no bandwidth reduction for the center output, only the surrounds that you are not using) and they are plentiful and cheap on eBay compared to PL2. You can add DIRAC room correction if desired (which then allows the primary AVR do its own correction (any change to the extracted channels could then be corrected by its own DIRAC correction) and you can use a cheap AVR or other amp for the amplification of those channels.

By using my own older AVR for six channel amplification, it only cost me the price of the PLI processor (about $60 each) to do Scatmos plus the speakers. 2-channel DIRAC correction cost about $120. So the total cost could be under $200 plus whatever speakers you use. Matrixed channels cost even less to do ($40 + $70 amp here for matrixed surround #1 speakers).

I find little point to buy PLII units for 2-5x the price. Unless you're going to use PLII music mode (that acts like an array by adding sound back to the mains so you might but as well just se an active mixer instead and save even more), I see no obvious advantage to PLII. MAYBE it 'steers' less hard than PLI, but I can't hear an obvious issue in any demo that pans with my top middle speakers. The Atmos helicopter demo pans well, for example.
NBPk402 likes this.

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 11-01-19)
MagnumX is online now  
post #2147 of 2166 Old 11-09-2019, 10:39 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Geraldton - 250miles from Perth Western Australia
Posts: 415
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 216 Post(s)
Liked: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
^ If the boxes are set to 5.1, they also will extract a surround left and right from the stereo input. This surround content will be removed from your heights.
I did think that but I figured it will be such little info removed that any loss would be worth it for the extra benefits.
In back to back listening tests between the normal 4 heights and running 7 thru the decoders I couldn't detect any loss.
The basement scene from A Quiet Place sounded so much better - I was able to visualise the location and movement of the monster off screen with more 'accuracy'.
niterida is offline  
post #2148 of 2166 Old 11-09-2019, 06:11 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
humbland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,531
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1070 Post(s)
Liked: 306
FWIW, I just posted a similar comment in the Darbee thread...
It's sadly ironic that the incredibly dedicated and inventive crew here at AVS is finally coming up with a relatively simple, straightforward, cost effective implementaion to add extra soundfield channels. Just in time to be available with the next round of AVRs/processors offering 7.2.6 Atmos...
humbland is online now  
post #2149 of 2166 Old 11-09-2019, 07:35 PM
Member
 
kee68's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Wonder Lake,
Posts: 184
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Liked: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
I'll say one more time that you don't technically need pricey (by comparison) PLII decoders to do 'Scatmos'.

PLI decoders work perfectly fine for center extraction (there is no bandwidth reduction for the center output, only the surrounds that you are not using) and they are plentiful and cheap on eBay compared to PL2. You can add DIRAC room correction if desired (which then allows the primary AVR do its own correction (any change to the extracted channels could then be corrected by its own DIRAC correction) and you can use a cheap AVR or other amp for the amplification of those channels.

By using my own older AVR for six channel amplification, it only cost me the price of the PLI processor (about $60 each) to do Scatmos plus the speakers. 2-channel DIRAC correction cost about $120. So the total cost could be under $200 plus whatever speakers you use. Matrixed channels cost even less to do ($40 + $70 amp here for matrixed surround #1 speakers).

I find little point to buy PLII units for 2-5x the price. Unless you're going to use PLII music mode (that acts like an array by adding sound back to the mains so you might but as well just se an active mixer instead and save even more), I see no obvious advantage to PLII. MAYBE it 'steers' less hard than PLI, but I can't hear an obvious issue in any demo that pans with my top middle speakers. The Atmos helicopter demo pans well, for example.
MagnumX, you mention PLII decoders so I need to ask if I could use a non 4K unit (A100 Denon) to get wides with my 8500. I wound up with two A100's in 2010 and one has never been out of the box and the other still powers a 11 channel system I am still very fond of. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Bob
kee68 is offline  
post #2150 of 2166 Old 11-10-2019, 03:41 AM
Senior Member
 
mach250's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 229
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Not sure if this is the purpose of this thread but would 7.2.6 > or < 9.2.4? Quick best guess estimate for 11 to 13 channels is probably a 600 to 1000 dollar increase since I don't have the speakers or the receiver/pro-amp setup. Rear row is raised and either 2 or 3 seats, not sure yet.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	11rume.JPG
Views:	18
Size:	38.7 KB
ID:	2638894   Click image for larger version

Name:	13rume.JPG
Views:	17
Size:	39.3 KB
ID:	2638896  
mach250 is offline  
post #2151 of 2166 Old 11-10-2019, 07:44 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SteveCallas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,225
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 857 Post(s)
Liked: 788
I don't see the 9 channels in your first image, just 7. IMO, adding wides makes a much bigger difference than a couple extra atmos channels.
SteveCallas is offline  
post #2152 of 2166 Old 11-10-2019, 08:08 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MagnumX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 2,059
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1184 Post(s)
Liked: 697
Quote:
Originally Posted by kee68 View Post
MagnumX, you mention PLII decoders so I need to ask if I could use a non 4K unit (A100 Denon) to get wides with my 8500. I wound up with two A100's in 2010 and one has never been out of the box and the other still powers a 11 channel system I am still very fond of. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Bob
I'm not specifically familiar with the Denon A100, but as long as it does PLII, it should work for "Scatmos". You just input the two channels you want to create a third channel from and set it to Pro Logic II surround decode (set the setup for 3-channel front only or you'll lose some out of phase material). You can use the built-in amps to power all three channels. So for front wides, you'd want front left and side surround left input and the center out would be front wide left. You'd repeat the same with the other A100 for the right side. If the A100 has room correction, you can use it (you'd still want it on for the main AVR as I don't think you can exclude channels; the second one should have less work to do for the mains and would have to correct anything the first two screw up for the center out). If the A100 doesn't have room correction, you'd have to see how it sounds with and without on the main AVR as the front wides might sound worse or they might sound fine. It depends on the room, really.

The only thing to consider with doing front wides with Scatmos is that some Atmos material my have "snap to" engaged for front wides (like the one Dolby Atmos channel demo) in which case you won't get front wide output for those moments as it will fold them into the mains instead. It's hard to say what does and does not use snap to with wides or any other channel. Normal panning between front and sides should always work (I don't think "snap to" front wides can pan at all).

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 11-01-19)

Last edited by MagnumX; 11-10-2019 at 08:11 AM.
MagnumX is online now  
post #2153 of 2166 Old 11-10-2019, 08:19 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MagnumX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 2,059
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1184 Post(s)
Liked: 697
Quote:
Originally Posted by mach250 View Post
Not sure if this is the purpose of this thread but would 7.2.6 > or < 9.2.4? Quick best guess estimate for 11 to 13 channels is probably a 600 to 1000 dollar increase since I don't have the speakers or the receiver/pro-amp setup. Rear row is raised and either 2 or 3 seats, not sure yet.
With your size room, I don't think you'd get much benefit from from front wides based on my own room (12x24). I don't hear a huge difference from the front wides from the mains, but I do get much better overhead sound with "top middle" extracted due to the huge angles between front height and rear height in a 24' long room with 4 rows (wall to wall). I could have used top positions and probably got away with 4 overheads, but with three rows of seats, that means the overhead sounds would have been in front of the rear row and mostly right above the middle row instead of well behind it. For off-center seats, front wides do have a significant impact, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
I don't see the 9 channels in your first image, just 7. IMO, adding wides makes a much bigger difference than a couple extra atmos channels.
Wides are Atmos channels. I think you mean extra overhead Atmos channels. Either way, I disagree. It depends entirely on the room layout which would contribute more. I also tend to like matrixed front wides as they sound simply awesome with stereo material (It creates an array effect, which not only widens the sound stage, but decreases room boundary interaction and to my ears sounds even more focused/clear than just 2-channel as a result). I've noticed many of the Lyngdorf MP-50 owners have discovered that in another thread. It's one reason I went with matrixed front wides instead of Scatmos (the other being a mixer takes up less room than a processor and amplifier, although if I ditched my old laserdisc player I could have made room).

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 11-01-19)
MagnumX is online now  
post #2154 of 2166 Old 11-10-2019, 11:17 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SteveCallas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,225
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 857 Post(s)
Liked: 788
In the context of multi avr setups, i don’t use wides as part of atmos processing, i used wides from a pre-atmos receiver with DTS Neo X. I can’t speak to if wides are any good processed through atmos.
SteveCallas is offline  
post #2155 of 2166 Old 11-10-2019, 12:21 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MagnumX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 2,059
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1184 Post(s)
Liked: 697
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
In the context of multi avr setups, i don’t use wides as part of atmos processing, i used wides from a pre-atmos receiver with DTS Neo X. I can’t speak to if wides are any good processed through atmos.
Well, the new ones use Neural X for wides if you haven't gone above the 11-channel limit (Pro will supposedly wipe that). It'd be nice if you could choose priority over one or the other. DSU doesn't use them at all. Atmos uses decoded ones so they do whatever they're supposed to do. I've got Audyssey DSX on my older 7010 which can do wides and front heights. I hated it. It sounded way too echoey with fake reverb for my tastes with no apparent way to adjust the reverb. If you extract a "wide" between the front and side channels, it will be whatever pans between them pans "through" the front wides. This helps with off-axis seating a LOT.

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 11-01-19)
MagnumX is online now  
post #2156 of 2166 Old 11-10-2019, 06:05 PM
Senior Member
 
mach250's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 229
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Whoops, forgot to put the front wides on the picture. If I set my speakers up like in the picture will I be able to support Auro 3d too?
mach250 is offline  
post #2157 of 2166 Old 11-10-2019, 06:20 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MagnumX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 2,059
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1184 Post(s)
Liked: 697
Quote:
Originally Posted by mach250 View Post
Whoops, forgot to put the front wides on the picture. If I set my speakers up like in the picture will I be able to support Auro 3d too?
Auro-3D technically only requires front height speakers to function. (rear heights or surround heights are highly recommended too).
NBPk402 likes this.

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 11-01-19)
MagnumX is online now  
post #2158 of 2166 Old 11-17-2019, 07:25 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 1
@niterida I have a Yamaha CXA 5100...would one or two of these boxes allow me to run a center for the front and rear height channels? How would I tune them?

Thanks

Living room HT
Front channels...3 Klipsch RP160Ms, 4 RP150Ms surrounds,Yamaha CXA5100, 2 Dune HD PRO, 2 Yamaha p2500s, 2 Nobsound 50wpc, UnRaid, APC HT power center, Pioneer bluray player, PS3, XBOX ONE,
Xilica xp4080 crossover

Last edited by NBPk402; 11-17-2019 at 07:39 AM.
NBPk402 is offline  
post #2159 of 2166 Old 11-18-2019, 03:52 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Geraldton - 250miles from Perth Western Australia
Posts: 415
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 216 Post(s)
Liked: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by NBPk402 View Post
@niterida I have a Yamaha CXA 5100...would one or two of these boxes allow me to run a center for the front and rear height channels? How would I tune them?

Thanks
You need 2 boxes.

Take TFL and TRL outputs from the Yamaha and into one box and TFR and TRR into the other box. Then LCR out of both boxes into multi-channel inputs of your amp.

There is no tuning or any other options built in to the boxes - it's all done via your pre-amp and/or amp.
Just make sure the eq, levels and distances of the 4 heights in the 5100 are identical otherwise the PLII extraction won't work.
NBPk402 likes this.
niterida is offline  
post #2160 of 2166 Old 11-18-2019, 06:09 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MagnumX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 2,059
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1184 Post(s)
Liked: 697
Quote:
Originally Posted by niterida View Post
Just make sure the eq, levels and distances of the 4 heights in the 5100 are identical otherwise the PLII extraction won't work.
Exaggerated myth for EQ, in my experience. I use room Audyssey room correction on the height channels and there is no issue with center extraction. But then I use PL I, not PLII. Frankly, I would think the latter would be better at working around slight differences, not worse, but that doesn't seem to be the case from the few who have tried it.

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 11-01-19)
MagnumX is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off