"Official" Audyssey thread Part II - Page 119 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3541 of 7044 Old 08-10-2017, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by grendelrt View Post
thanks for the reply, I will try the blanket next time for the reasons you stated on the first position.
You are very welcome, but just leave the blanket where it is during the full calibration. It won't do any harm. Your body will be where the blanket was when you are actually listening to something, and the blanket will help for some of the other mic positions, too. For instance, most people will go out to each side of mic 1 by anywhere from about 6" to 18", but they will stay close to the chair or sofa back in the process.

I actually do 5 of my 8 total positions within about 4" to 6" of the chair back. Some are just a little beyond where my ears would be and some are out beyond where they would be if I turned my head or leaned to one side. In my particular case, a closer mic pattern actually gives me a more uniform room EQ, over a wider area, than a large pattern does. But, that's a YMMV issue, so you will have to experiment to find out what works best for you.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #3542 of 7044 Old 08-12-2017, 11:56 AM
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Did any1 Notice that keeping the below settings makes The Avr Sound more Livlier , Full :

MultEQ XT/32 : Reference
Dynamic EQ : OFF
Dynamic Volume : Light

I use these settings and prefer it for Playing Music.
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post #3543 of 7044 Old 08-13-2017, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Sachb View Post
Did any1 Notice that keeping the below settings makes The Avr Sound more Livlier , Full :

MultEQ XT/32 : Reference
Dynamic EQ : OFF
Dynamic Volume : Light

I use these settings and prefer it for Playing Music.
Dynamic Volume is compressing the dynamic range of your music. Listen that way if you like, but for me it's the opposite of what I want when I listen to music.

Dynamic Volume is handy when you can't hear the dialogue clearly because you have the volume turned down in order not to have your ears blown out <g> or your neighbors disturbed by explosive sound effects. That's the only time I use it.
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post #3544 of 7044 Old 08-13-2017, 09:23 AM
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I had my Av buddy come over last night because I was just not happy with how my system was sounding 5.1.4 Atmos setup, the phrase I used was "thin". I have deep bass from sub and it melds good with front three speakers but spatial voice did not have presence if you know what I mean. Audyssey set fronts to full range and all other speakers to 40Hz. I switched everything to small and was told to put the LFE in my 8802a to 80Hz. For speaker I have:

B&W CWm7.3 F/C/R - Frequency response 43Hz - 28Hz
B&W CWM7.4 surrounds Frequency response 47Hz - 28Hz
B&W CCM682 Atmos speakers 4 Frequency response 35Hz - 50Hz
Sub Velodyne DD10 Frequency response 18Hz -120Hz

after Audyessy calibration I set to:

fronts -80Hz
center -80Hz
surrounds -80Hz
Atmos - 80Hz.

LFE in processor 80Hz (I was told by a sound engineer from JL audio to this plus add 12' to the distance of the sub)

My friend switched things up he left speakers set to small but:

fronts - 90Hz
center 90Hz
surounds 90Hz
Atmos - 100Hz

LFE in processor to 90Hz


things do sound better just not sure if crossing the Atmos speakers at 100Hz is correct, what do you guys/gals set your to? definitely sounds less muddy and thin spatialy. Why is this if the speakers have such low frequency response.

Thank you for any input

Dave-
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post #3545 of 7044 Old 08-13-2017, 09:27 AM
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Any image on these threads that's hosted by photobucket is now not available. e.g., in the AVSF Audyssey FAQ, the 'official' mic positioning diagram can't be viewed, the image placeholder says 'please update your account to enable third party hosting'.

I assume mods are aware of this, but a search of 'photobucket' on this thread yielded no results. So I thought I'd mention it.
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post #3546 of 7044 Old 08-13-2017, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave-T View Post
I had my Av buddy come over last night because I was just not happy with how my system was sounding 5.1.4 Atmos setup, the phrase I used was "thin". I have deep bass from sub and it melds good with front three speakers but spatial voice did not have presence if you know what I mean. Audyssey set fronts to full range and all other speakers to 40Hz. I switched everything to small and was told to put the LFE in my 8802a to 80Hz. For speaker I have:

B&W CWm7.3 F/C/R - Frequency response 43Hz - 28Hz
B&W CWM7.4 surrounds Frequency response 47Hz - 28Hz
B&W CCM682 Atmos speakers 4 Frequency response 35Hz - 50Hz
Sub Velodyne DD10 Frequency response 18Hz -120Hz

after Audyessy calibration I set to:

fronts -80Hz
center -80Hz
surrounds -80Hz
Atmos - 80Hz.

LFE in processor 80Hz (I was told by a sound engineer from JL audio to this plus add 12' to the distance of the sub)

My friend switched things up he left speakers set to small but:

fronts - 90Hz
center 90Hz
surounds 90Hz
Atmos - 100Hz

LFE in processor to 90Hz


things do sound better just not sure if crossing the Atmos speakers at 100Hz is correct, what do you guys/gals set your to? definitely sounds less muddy and thin spatialy. Why is this if the speakers have such low frequency response.

Thank you for any input

Dave-
Hi Dave,

It is always difficult to know exactly how speakers will actually perform in a room, because the location of the speakers plays such an important part in their performance. It isn't just room modes, it is also your distance from the speakers that matters. And, even with reputable manufacturer's such as B&W, the specifications are not always reliable. In this case, B&W shows your ceiling speakers as already down 6db at 35Hz (quasi-anechoically), and that makes sense with a single 8" mid-range/woofer.

Using a higher crossover may be offloading enough of the marginal bass from the Atmos speakers to enable the upper bass and mid-range to play more clearly and emphatically. And, the higher crossover may also enable the 8" speaker to integrate better with your subs. After all, even with a 100Hz crossover, it is still playing 75Hz sounds just 6db softer, and 50Hz sounds 12db softer. That gradual transition from speaker to subwoofer (at a slightly higher crossover frequency) can often result in a smoother, yet less muddled sound.

I really like the one octave rule for setting crossovers. So, with those speakers registering a 40Hz crossover in-room, I would use a minimum crossover of 80Hz, as you did, and I wouldn't mind in the least experimenting with a higher one. In your case, the slightly higher crossover does seem to have given you better overall sound, and that's the ultimate objective.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #3547 of 7044 Old 08-13-2017, 01:50 PM
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Receiver sounds better with audyssey off?

I have the denon x1300w, I bought it partially because it has audyssey multiEQ XT on it, and I've tried running this thing 4 times now to get a good sound out of it but I haven't been able to do that. I read the FAQ on here and the 101 guide but still get the same results of not sounding good. The midrange is too pronounced, it sets the bass too low and the treble too high. The receiver sounds a lot better with audyssey completely off and no changes to EQ at all. What's up with this? I thought audyssey was supposed to improve the sound not make it worse, and if thats the case why wouldn't I just go with a pioneer AVR instead like the vsx lx101?
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post #3548 of 7044 Old 08-13-2017, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dgreen97 View Post
I have the denon x1300w, I bought it partially because it has audyssey multiEQ XT on it, and I've tried running this thing 4 times now to get a good sound out of it but I haven't been able to do that. I read the FAQ on here and the 101 guide but still get the same results of not sounding good. The midrange is too pronounced, it sets the bass too low and the treble too high. The receiver sounds a lot better with audyssey completely off and no changes to EQ at all. What's up with this? I thought audyssey was supposed to improve the sound not make it worse, and if thats the case why wouldn't I just go with a pioneer AVR instead like the vsx lx101?
Regarding the low bass, if you read the FAQ, then you know to raise the subwoofer level about +3-5 db to suit your personal preference using the Manual Setup menu. Also, although the vast majority will prefer Audyssey ON vs. OFF, some may not prefer it ON in which case you may want to try using the Audyssey MultEQ Editor app (iOS/Android, $20USD) in which you can customize the Audyssey EQ curve to suit your personal preference.
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post #3549 of 7044 Old 08-13-2017, 01:54 PM
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yes i did that, im not talking about the bass here. I'm talking about that it sets the midrange in a weird way so it sounds overly processed and then the treble is too high.
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post #3550 of 7044 Old 08-13-2017, 02:00 PM
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audyssey on reduces my treble alot, many may not like that.

other than that really cant tell much difference in rew frequency response curves.

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post #3551 of 7044 Old 08-13-2017, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Dgreen97 View Post
I have the denon x1300w, I bought it partially because it has audyssey multiEQ XT on it, and I've tried running this thing 4 times now to get a good sound out of it but I haven't been able to do that. I read the FAQ on here and the 101 guide but still get the same results of not sounding good. The midrange is too pronounced, it sets the bass too low and the treble too high. The receiver sounds a lot better with audyssey completely off and no changes to EQ at all. What's up with this? I thought audyssey was supposed to improve the sound not make it worse, and if thats the case why wouldn't I just go with a pioneer AVR instead like the vsx lx101?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dgreen97 View Post
yes i did that, im not talking about the bass here. I'm talking about that it sets the midrange in a weird way so it sounds overly processed and then the treble is too high.
Hi,

There is no guarantee that Audyssey will work equally well for every room, system, and preference. So, as with any technology, there is that going in. But, if you aren't getting good results and want to try to do some problem-solving to sort things out, you can post some photos showing your front soundstage and tell us a little about the calibration technique you used. It may be that something in your set-up and/or calibration technique will jump out.

A program of automated room EQ, such as Audyssey, can very often improve sound quality in a room, particularly with respect to lower frequencies. But, depending on set-up and calibration process, it can also exacerbate already existing problems, or even create new ones, at higher frequencies. After years of participating in this thread, I feel very comfortable in saying that, for many people, it is not a set-it and forget-it technology.

But, for people willing to invest some time in it, Audyssey can usually improve sound quality in low frequencies without jeopardizing sound quality in higher frequencies. Of course, that won't be true in all cases, and individual results will vary. For instance, some people do get additional clarity in higher frequencies, as well.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 08-13-2017 at 03:37 PM.
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post #3552 of 7044 Old 08-13-2017, 04:29 PM
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For 2.1 music I never listen to room correction; straight through my P5 preamp to 2 channel Amp. For 9 channel 5.1.4 then yes I use room correction

Primary set-up 5.1.4; Yamaha A2050, Paired w/Parasound P5 & ATI 522NC 2 channel amp
Revel F206 fronts & Revel M16 rears; Outlaw X12 Sub & 4 RSL C34e in-ceilings

Secondary 5.1: Denon S900W, Polk LSiM703/704C, Polk RC80i in-ceiling rears, RSL Speedwoofer 10s
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post #3553 of 7044 Old 08-13-2017, 05:01 PM
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forgot to mention the other issue im having as well, there is a 2-3 second delay on audio when using bluetooth on the x1300w. No clue why this is happening, on the pioneer receiver I had there was no delay. any ideas?
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post #3554 of 7044 Old 08-13-2017, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dgreen97 View Post
I have the denon x1300w, I bought it partially because it has audyssey multiEQ XT on it, and I've tried running this thing 4 times now to get a good sound out of it but I haven't been able to do that. I read the FAQ on here and the 101 guide but still get the same results of not sounding good. The midrange is too pronounced, it sets the bass too low and the treble too high. The receiver sounds a lot better with audyssey completely off and no changes to EQ at all. What's up with this? I thought audyssey was supposed to improve the sound not make it worse, and if thats the case why wouldn't I just go with a pioneer AVR instead like the vsx lx101?
Quote:
Originally Posted by [B
torii[/B];54627942]audyssey on reduces my treble alot, many may not like that.

other than that really cant tell much difference in rew frequency response curves.
Here we have one user saying Audyssey sets the treble too high, and another says Audyssey reduces the treble a lot.. There could be an explanation for both, but we would have to know more about the rooms, speakers, and procedure used.

Dgreen97
, the midrange and treble will seem too high if the bass is too low. Almost everyone turns up the subwoofer after running Audyssey. That might be a first step, then switch back and forth between Audyssey on and off, and see what you think. If you would like, you could run REW to see a response graph at the main listening position, but you will need a calibrated microphone (about $100, see the thread on AVS about USB mic REW measurements). This will help you set the subwoofer to flat, if you would like to see what that sounds like. All this may be unnecessary, though. If you listen alone, try using Audyssey mic positions fairly closely surrounding where your head would be when listening. If you run movies or 5.0/5.1 music for a group of people, use the mic positions Audyssey recommends. It takes most people several tries to get a really good correction for their rooms and audience configurations. I love what Audyssey ultimately did for my sound. As Mike said, please post a picture of your set-up. If you still have too much treble (after turning up the subwoofer), and you happen to be using Audyssey Flat, try switching to Audyssey Reference (just plain Audyssey), which rolls off the treble a bit.

torii, maybe your room is pretty good as is if you don't see much difference in the REW curves. Is it treated? Are you using Audyssey Reference or Audyssey Flat? As you probably know, the latter has more treble. I use Audyssey Flat for most recordings and movies.
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post #3555 of 7044 Old 08-13-2017, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Dgreen97 View Post
I have the denon x1300w, I bought it partially because it has audyssey multiEQ XT on it, and I've tried running this thing 4 times now to get a good sound out of it but I haven't been able to do that. I read the FAQ on here and the 101 guide but still get the same results of not sounding good. The midrange is too pronounced, it sets the bass too low and the treble too high. The receiver sounds a lot better with audyssey completely off and no changes to EQ at all. What's up with this? I thought audyssey was supposed to improve the sound not make it worse, and if thats the case why wouldn't I just go with a pioneer AVR instead like the vsx lx101?
Story of my life. I've had a love/hate relationship with audyssey for years.

There are a LOT of people that think their setup sounds better without any EQ at all. There's also a LOT of people that think Audyssey is miracle worker. Personally, after hearing how Audyssey XT32 handles everything in my fully treated 23x17x10 dedicated home theater running 7.2.4, I am inclined to just leave it off. I don't trust it anymore after seeing how it EQs a setup that is picture perfect in terms of layout. It sucked a lot of life out, even when using the flat EQ and turning the subs up +5. Sure, if I hook up a EQ mic and do some sweeps in REW, audyssey appears to be doing amazing things but what matters is your ears not some chart. I find in heavily treated rooms it tends to miss the ballpark. Audyssey seems to filter lots of echo from it's results, and if you get rid of that echo it starts to filter meaningful data and produce bad results (my theory). Audyssey actually works better for me if I take all my GIK acoustic panels down, but it sounds significantly worse having an untreated room.

If you don't like the results... I recommend running it once with 1 position to get all your delays/distances/levels set, manually set crossovers to 80hz, LFE to 120hz, and all speakers to small, then disable audyssey and see if you like how your system sounds. I bought a receiver with XT32 which is significantly more expensive and ended up not using it either.

Last edited by Tyrindor; 08-14-2017 at 12:15 AM.
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post #3556 of 7044 Old 08-14-2017, 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Dgreen97 View Post
yes i did that, im not talking about the bass here. I'm talking about that it sets the midrange in a weird way so it sounds overly processed and then the treble is too high.
Unfortunately, Audyssey does not do its "miracles" for everyone as some are expecting. As soon as the algorithmic model it is based on is not valid anymore to a large extend it may need some additional help from the user.

First of all, how is the frequency dependent reverberation time in your listening room ?
If it is a rather clean, modern, sparingly decorated room it may have a to long reverberation time for the mids and highs, which would make the sound come out less transparent and overly aggressive.
If it is on the other side heavily decorated (drapery, stores, furniture, carpet etc.) it might be sounding rather dull and somehow "dead".

If your are sitting close to a wall or measuring near it, the resulting bass may get "thin". Whilst the 1st measurement should be at ear height at your MLP (head position), all the other measurements in a run afterwards should be at least 1' or more away from any walls or large surfaces. Don't spread them out to far (more than ~20" from position 1) or your corrections filters might be getting rather ineffective. Don't use pillows or anything similar to place the microphone onto or hand-hold it, because this may change the frequency response negatively due to near field effects and noise transfer. Textile or leather type surfaces nearby the microphone may have a detrimental influence too. Many things to consider in some cases...

There is an "Audyssey Setup Guide" and Q &A here in the thread and an extensive "How to..." to get up and running with satisfactory results. Some experimenting may still be needed though...

Last edited by gurkey; 08-14-2017 at 06:06 PM.
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post #3557 of 7044 Old 08-14-2017, 05:26 AM
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The way audyssey is hyped you would think it works miracles but that wasn't the case for me and apparently a lot of other people. Makes me wonder why I bought this denon then and if I should just get a pioneer elite with MCACC. I liked the results of MCACC a lot better, the basic version even, when I had the vsx 532. It was much much easier to setup and you didn't need to read tons of documentation just to figure out how to get the best results so I don't know what's up with audyssey but apparently its not just plug and play.
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post #3558 of 7044 Old 08-14-2017, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Dgreen97 View Post
The way audyssey is hyped you would think it works miracles but that wasn't the case for me and apparently a lot of other people. Makes me wonder why I bought this denon then and if I should just get a pioneer elite with MCACC. I liked the results of MCACC a lot better, the basic version even, when I had the vsx 532. It was much much easier to setup and you didn't need to read tons of documentation just to figure out how to get the best results so I don't know what's up with audyssey but apparently its not just plug and play.
Hi,

I'm not sure where Audyssey is hyped other than in Audyssey's own marketing materials. At one time, you might have encountered a lot of hype on this thread, but I think that has largely subsided now. I believe that most of us who hang out on this thread are aware of Audyssey's strengths, and are also aware that it is definitely not just plug-and-play for many people. Of course, some people actually do get lucky on their very first try with Audyssey.

Based on my reading of the thread, over a period of about 8 years, the great majority of people who try Audyssey find it helpful. I would put that percentage as high as 90% or higher. (It should be noted that some people who don't like the basic theory of automated room correction have never actually tried Audyssey and are just reacting to it's theoretical attributes.) But, there have been a number of instances where people who are experienced with Audyssey have simply not been able to get it to work well for their specific rooms and audio systems.

I don't know that anyone on this thread would consider Audyssey a miracle worker, but the fact is that in the great majority of cases, where someone is having a problem getting Audyssey to help, rather than to hurt with the sound, there are speaker set-up issues or calibration technique issues responsible for that. For the majority of people I have seen willing to make a time investment with Audyssey, it can be an effective way to improve the overall sound quality in a home theater or audio system, and particularly for bass frequencies. Again, I would estimate that number at around 90% or higher.

But, if you are looking for somebody to tell you that you are wrong to want a simpler system, such as the Pioneer you had, which doesn't do much but which also doesn't require any learning curve or time investment, then I can't do that. I think that everyone has to decide for himself what his audio priorities are, how much effort he is willing to invest, and whether or not he is getting the results he wants from something like Audyssey. People on this thread have a history of always being glad to help with Audyssey-related issues. But, most of us don't want to try to convince other people that they should use Audyssey no matter what, or like Audyssey no matter what.

To me, Audyssey is just a tool. Like many tools, we get out of it what we put into it. And, also like many tools, it is not always going to be the proper tool for every job. Whether or not to use it, or to invest time in it, is something that only the individual user can decide. I know that you were partly blowing-off steam, but there are always a number of people silently reading along on these owner threads and I thought that a more comprehensive response might be helpful.

If you want some help with Audyssey, you can certainly find it here. But, if you decide to go back to a Pioneer, I don't think that anyone here will try to talk you out of it. Frankly, the "fan-boy" owner's threads leave me kind of cold, anyway. This is all just my personal perspective on the issue, though, so someone else may have an entirely different point of view.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #3559 of 7044 Old 08-14-2017, 11:10 AM
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Hi,

I'm not sure where Audyssey is hyped other than in Audyssey's own marketing materials. At one time, you might have encountered a lot of hype on this thread, but I think that has largely subsided now. I believe that most of us who hang out on this thread are aware of Audyssey's strengths, and are also aware that it is definitely not just plug-and-play for many people. Of course, some people actually do get lucky on their very first try with Audyssey.

Based on my reading of the thread, over a period of about 8 years, the great majority of people who try Audyssey find it helpful. I would put that percentage as high as 90% or higher. (It should be noted that some people who don't like the basic theory of automated room correction have never actually tried Audyssey and are just reacting to it's theoretical attributes.) But, there have been a number of instances where people who are experienced with Audyssey have simply not been able to get it to work well for their specific rooms and audio systems.

I don't know that anyone on this thread would consider Audyssey a miracle worker, but the fact is that in the great majority of cases, where someone is having a problem getting Audyssey to help, rather than to hurt with the sound, there are speaker set-up issues or calibration technique issues responsible for that. For the majority of people I have seen willing to make a time investment with Audyssey, it can be an effective way to improve the overall sound quality in a home theater or audio system, and particularly for bass frequencies. Again, I would estimate that number at around 90% or higher.

But, if you are looking for somebody to tell you that you are wrong to want a simpler system, such as the Pioneer you had, which doesn't do much but which also doesn't require any learning curve or time investment, then I can't do that. I think that everyone has to decide for himself what his audio priorities are, how much effort he is willing to invest, and whether or not he is getting the results he wants from something like Audyssey. People on this thread have a history of always being glad to help with Audyssey-related issues. But, most of us don't want to try to convince other people that they should use Audyssey no matter what, or like Audyssey no matter what.

To me, Audyssey is just a tool. Like many tools, we get out of it what we put into it. And, also like many tools, it is not always going to be the proper tool for every job. Whether or not to use it, or to invest time in it, is something that only the individual user can decide. I know that you were partly blowing-off steam, but there are always a number of people silently reading along on these owner threads and I thought that a more comprehensive response might be helpful.

If you want some help with Audyssey, you can certainly find it here. But, if you decide to go back to a Pioneer, I don't think that anyone here will try to talk you out of it. Frankly, the "fan-boy" owner's threads leave me kind of cold, anyway. This is all just my personal perspective on the issue, though, so someone else may have an entirely different point of view.

Regards,
Mike
I like your post on the subject very much Mike. Yet, IMHO, in the bolded part the word Audyssey may easily be substituted with MCACC or YPAO or any other room RC system, coz it's so true (as you pointed out) that the necessity of speaker-setup issues and calibration technique issues need always be taken into account, actually no way out. Or in other words: "there's no free lunch, eh?"
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post #3560 of 7044 Old 08-14-2017, 01:29 PM
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Anyone read this thread?
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...irac-live.html

Curious to see thoughts on the conclusions for Audyssey that were observed. The final conclusions are interesting,
Quote:
Beyond that, the main requirements for getting good results are that:
the first measurement is at LPC, even though we know there are disturbances there and often no line-of-sight to surrounds, as there is important data needed at that position for the room correction program to get best performance from the front main speakers
the remaining measurement positions, all in the center plane, should be different distances from the chair back
all within one foot of LPC, if possible, although line-of-sight to surrounds is important for these measurements. With Audyssey, measurement points farther than 12 inches from LPC give compromised FR and softened, imprecise SS&I, so are only useful if smoothed FR across several seats is the goal.
This part really interested me, saying basically the first position should be ear height, center point between ears, even if it is below the chair back.
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post #3561 of 7044 Old 08-14-2017, 02:59 PM
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Not sure if I'm asking an Audyssey question or a Marantz question, so I'll start here. Punt me to the Marantz thread if suitable

I re-ran Audyssey calibration this afternoon on my Marantz 7702mkII, having a quiet weekday afternoon and a new stand for more convenient positioning of mic. The Audyssey output (below in the spoiler tags) produces odd distances for the subwoofers. They are physically located about 11 feet and 6 feet (respectively) from the "1" mic position; not 23 and 35 feet Audyssey determines. Maybe this is an artifact of the in-wall subs being driven by Triad amps having a shorter delay compared to the rest of the speakers going through Marantz amps?

The other detail I notice is it sets the cutoff for the Front Speakers as 40Hz. But I remembered that was answered last year

Output in spoiler tags:
Spoiler!
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post #3562 of 7044 Old 08-14-2017, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by grendelrt View Post
Anyone read this thread?
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...irac-live.html

Curious to see thoughts on the conclusions for Audyssey that were observed. The final conclusions are interesting,

This part really interested me, saying basically the first position should be ear height, center point between ears, even if it is below the chair back.
Hi,

I haven't read the thread, but I tend to be a little wary of generalizations, such as restricting all mic positions to 12" or less from the MLP. I do believe that it is important to start with the first mic position at ear level, even if it is below the chair back. And, I think that more people have gotten good results in the last few years with slightly tighter mic patterns. But, a number of people on this thread have had good success by keeping the majority of mic positions at ear level, and only going 2" or 3" higher than ear level for a couple of positions.

I made the point in a recent post that sound quality from the speakers in the front soundstage, or off to the side, is of greatest importance. And, that is why I prefer to keep most of the mic positions at ear level. I think that is helpful in part because our hearing is more acute to the front and to the sides, and partly because the content in the front is of greater importance. Rear surrounds, particularly, mainly contain ambient sounds and sound effects.

So, I have always favored trying to keep the mic at ear level for all but a couple of the mic positions. Another point that I made in that earlier post is that as we move the mic out away from the chair back (and I like to come forward about 20" or 22") the more the angle of incidence to the rear surrounds changes, and the better the Audyssey microphone can "see" the speakers. Those mic positions away from the chair, in conjunction with a couple of mic positions a couple of inches higher, should give the fuzzy logic weighting algorithm all of the information it needs to correctly EQ the rear surround speakers, in any case. And, I believe that technique works fine in the great majority of rooms.

Regards,
Mike

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* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoutingMan View Post
Not sure if I'm asking an Audyssey question or a Marantz question, so I'll start here. Punt me to the Marantz thread if suitable

I re-ran Audyssey calibration this afternoon on my Marantz 7702mkII, having a quiet weekday afternoon and a new stand for more convenient positioning of mic. The Audyssey output (below in the spoiler tags) produces odd distances for the subwoofers. They are physically located about 11 feet and 6 feet (respectively) from the "1" mic position; not 23 and 35 feet Audyssey determines. Maybe this is an artifact of the in-wall subs being driven by Triad amps having a shorter delay compared to the rest of the speakers going through Marantz amps?

The other detail I notice is it sets the cutoff for the Front Speakers as 40Hz. But I remembered that was answered last year

Output in spoiler tags:
Spoiler!
Typically, the circuitry in sub woofers delays the signal a tiny bit, which makes the subwoofer appear further away to Audyssey. Don't worry about it.
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Spoiler!

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post #3564 of 7044 Old 08-14-2017, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoutingMan View Post
Not sure if I'm asking an Audyssey question or a Marantz question, so I'll start here. Punt me to the Marantz thread if suitable

I re-ran Audyssey calibration this afternoon on my Marantz 7702mkII, having a quiet weekday afternoon and a new stand for more convenient positioning of mic. The Audyssey output (below in the spoiler tags) produces odd distances for the subwoofers. They are physically located about 11 feet and 6 feet (respectively) from the "1" mic position; not 23 and 35 feet Audyssey determines. Maybe this is an artifact of the in-wall subs being driven by Triad amps having a shorter delay compared to the rest of the speakers going through Marantz amps?

The other detail I notice is it sets the cutoff for the Front Speakers as 40Hz. But I remembered that was answered last year
Hi,

As you know, Audyssey is simply measuring timing as opposed to actual distance. Your speakers are all powered by your amplifier(s). But, as you noted, your subs have internal amplifiers with their own internal processing which is usually several milliseconds behind your AVR. Since the sounds from all your sources need to arrive at your MLP at the same time, Audyssey will typically set subwoofer distances further away in order to speed up the subwoofer sound arriving at the MLP. Your speakers are set to operate the same way. A speaker further away will actually start it's sound a millisecond or more before a speaker nearer to the MLP, so that the sounds will arrive at the same time.

It's always a good idea to raise crossover, preferably to about 80Hz, or at least to about one octave higher than the reported F3 point. In this case, that would be 80Hz.

Regards,
Mike
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* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
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post #3565 of 7044 Old 08-14-2017, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I haven't read the thread, but I tend to be a little wary of generalizations, such as restricting all mic positions to 12" or less from the MLP. I do believe that it is important to start with the first mic position at ear level, even if it is below the chair back. And, I think that more people have gotten good results in the last few years with slightly tighter mic patterns. But, a number of people on this thread have had good success by keeping the majority of mic positions at ear level, and only going 2" or 3" higher than ear level for a couple of positions.

I made the point in a recent post that sound quality from the speakers in the front soundstage, or off to the side, is of greatest importance. And, that is why I prefer to keep most of the mic positions at ear level. I think that is helpful in part because our hearing is more acute to the front and to the sides, and partly because the content in the front is of greater importance. Rear surrounds, particularly, mainly contain ambient sounds and sound effects.

So, I have always favored trying to keep the mic at ear level for all but a couple of the mic positions. Another point that I made in that earlier post is that as we move the mic out away from the chair back (and I like to come forward about 20" or 22") the more the angle of incidence to the rear surrounds changes, and the better the Audyssey microphone can "see" the speakers. Those mic positions away from the chair, in conjunction with a couple of mic positions a couple of inches higher, should give the fuzzy logic weighting algorithm all of the information it needs to correctly EQ the rear surround speakers, in any case. And, I believe that technique works fine in the great majority of rooms.

Regards,
Mike
Yeah I have been staying inside the 2 ft rule which gives me a nice bubble that contains the main two listening positions. I will probably try starting 4" out at ear height on my next run for the primary spot then ear height on the forward spots, and up a little for the rear spots near the seat backs. Also will be doing the blanket since my 4 home theater seats are all leather. Should I restrict the blanket to directly at the listening position being measured? And how thick of a blanket are we talking here of what is needed to drape over the seating?
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post #3566 of 7044 Old 08-14-2017, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by grendelrt View Post
Yeah I have been staying inside the 2 ft rule which gives me a nice bubble that contains the main two listening positions. I will probably try starting 4" out at ear height on my next run for the primary spot then ear height on the forward spots, and up a little for the rear spots near the seat backs. Also will be doing the blanket since my 4 home theater seats are all leather. Should I restrict the blanket to directly at the listening position being measured? And how thick of a blanket are we talking here of what is needed to drape over the seating?
I try to keep the Audyssey mic about 18" away from any hard or smooth surfaces, such as a leather chair. So, I drape the blanket accordingly. Something fluffy and absorbent works well for me. But, one time I had the bright idea that if a single fluffy blanket worked well, then two thick blankets would work even better. Yeah, that theory doesn't work with hot sauce, either.

Doubling the thick blankets actually interfered with the way that Audyssey was hearing mid-range frequencies and caused some over-boosting (harshness) in that range. For the same reason, I always try to stay at least 4" away from the surface of the blanket. But, this is just trial-and-error really to discover what works acceptably in your specific situation.

Regards,
Mike
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* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #3567 of 7044 Old 08-14-2017, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grendelrt View Post
Anyone read this thread?
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...irac-live.html

Curious to see thoughts on the conclusions for Audyssey that were observed. The final conclusions are interesting,

This part really interested me, saying basically the first position should be ear height, center point between ears, even if it is below the chair back.
Even though the author sometimes uses a plural form (chairs), it seems that the technique he settled on for Audyssey is intended for a single individual viewing a movie or listening to music. Audyssey's advertisements always seem to show multiple seats, so an audience of more than one was probably Audyssey's target. That would seem to fit Audyssey's use of 8 mic positions and proprietary "fuzzy logic," rather than simple averaging. Solo listeners can try the author's hypotenusal inclined plane method if they would like.

The research was posted over two years ago; did we ever discuss it?

I'm glad we have a low backed couch. We planned our HT that way to allow the surrounds (slightly behind the couch, and to the sides) to be heard clearly. Even though our low backed couch is cloth covered, we used a very soft blanket over it anyway, just in case.
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post #3568 of 7044 Old 08-14-2017, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I try to keep the Audyssey mic about 18" away from any hard or smooth surfaces, such as a leather chair. So, I drape the blanket accordingly. Something fluffy and absorbent works well for me. But, one time I had the bright idea that if a single fluffy blanket worked well, then two thick blankets would work even better. Yeah, that theory doesn't work with hot sauce, either.

Doubling the thick blankets actually interfered with the way that Audyssey was hearing mid-range frequencies and caused some over-boosting (harshness) in that range. For the same reason, I always try to stay at least 4" away from the surface of the blanket. But, this is just trial-and-error really to discover what works acceptably in your specific situation.

Regards,
Mike
Thats actually really helpful though cause I have a couple small fuzzy blankets in the room I was going to use both, but I will stick to one :O

Quote:
Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
Even though the author sometimes uses a plural form (chairs), it seems that the technique he settled on for Audyssey is intended for a single individual viewing a movie or listening to music. Audyssey's advertisements always seem to show multiple seats, so an audience of more than one was probably Audyssey's target. That would seem to fit Audyssey's use of 8 mic positions and proprietary "fuzzy logic," rather than simple averaging. Solo listeners can try the author's hypotenusal inclined plane method if they would like.

The research was posted over two years ago; did we ever discuss it?

I'm glad we have a low backed couch. We planned our HT that way to allow the surrounds (slightly behind the couch, and to the sides) to be heard clearly. Even though our low backed couch is cloth covered, we used a very soft blanket over it anyway, just in case.
Yeah I love my HT seating, but the high backed seats add that extra PITA factor when having to decide how to work around them haha.
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post #3569 of 7044 Old 08-14-2017, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
I like your post on the subject very much Mike. Yet, IMHO, in the bolded part the word Audyssey may easily be substituted with MCACC or YPAO or any other room RC system, coz it's so true (as you pointed out) that the necessity of speaker-setup issues and calibration technique issues need always be taken into account, actually no way out. Or in other words: "there's no free lunch, eh?"
Thank you, Feri! That's a good point! I don't know as much as I would like to about some of the other RC systems, so I don't know how much calibration technique affects the final result. I would expect that technique might matter more where the automated system is doing more, but I'm not sure. I am pretty sure, though, that good set-up would yield better results with virtually any system of automated EQ.

Perhaps this is circuitous thinking to some people, but I have always felt that the fact that Audyssey reveals defects in speaker positioning, that we don't necessarily hear without Audyssey, is a good thing rather than a bad thing. Every change I ever made due to a problem that Audyssey exacerbated (and made more noticeable to me) actually resulted in better overall sound quality even without Audyssey engaged. I realize that's a YMMV sort of thing, but that was my experience.

When speakers weren't toed-in just right, for instance, Audyssey would do strange things to the sound (usually making the mid-range or high frequencies sound harsher.) When I experimented with adjusting the speaker toe-in to remove the artifacts that Audyssey had created, either the tone improved slightly, or the soundstage sounded fuller, or both. I probably wouldn't have ever noticed if Audyssey hadn't pulled my attention to those speakers. Maybe I'm just a glass half-full type, but that's how I always looked at it.

Regards,
Mike
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* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #3570 of 7044 Old 08-14-2017, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grendelrt View Post
Anyone read this thread?
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...irac-live.html

Curious to see thoughts on the conclusions for Audyssey that were observed. The final conclusions are interesting,
This part really interested me, saying basically the first position should be ear height, center point between ears, even if it is below the chair back.
The reason for this is rather simple. Audyssey collects a lot of its primary parameters on pos 1 (delay, level, lower frequency limit (f3)?, phase etc.) whilst the following passes are meant for collecting and setting up data and parameters for the individual correction filters. Thus pos 1 has to be spot on whilst the others are been weighted and evaluated for that main listening area which dictates a slightly different usage and handling of those positions.

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