"Official" Audyssey thread Part II - Page 185 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5521 of 7146 Old 11-11-2018, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
Thanks, Feri, for contacting Chris!


Centroid -- IMO that's a good way to put it. Is that your choice of words, or Audyssey's? I'm not sure I like the mathematical/physical definition (re: triangles, monolithic solids, etc.), but I love what it means in plain English, “resembling,” or “like” a center, but an imperfect resemblance. As you suggest, we wouldn't want a true center line, because it could over-represent extreme outliers, which is also what an unweighted average (mean) can do. A median can be a little better, but Audyssey's fuzzy creature is probably best of all.


I wouldn't say my Audyssey processed sound is "much much much" better, but when switching back and forth between "Audyssey" and "Audyssey off" with some Harman-like bass boost always engaged, with Audyssey it certainly is much better, clearer, airier, with better imaging, to use some audiophile words.

Hi Garry! I was really glad to have such a quick response from Chris.


Centroid is a word used by Adyssey which I've read in several of their publication and papers. A good word, indeed.
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post #5522 of 7146 Old 11-12-2018, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
Centroid -- IMO that's a good way to put it. Is that your choice of words, or Audyssey's? I'm not sure I like the mathematical/physical definition (re: triangles, monolithic solids, etc.), but I love what it means in plain English, “resembling,” or “like” a center, but an imperfect resemblance. As you suggest, we wouldn't want a true center line, because it could over-represent extreme outliers, which is also what an unweighted average (mean) can do. A median can be a little better, but Audyssey's fuzzy creature is probably best of all.
Read some more about it...
Attached Files
File Type: pdf cluster centroid method.pdf (146.8 KB, 19 views)
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post #5523 of 7146 Old 11-12-2018, 05:07 PM
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Hello,

I was able to run Audyssey with the Android App for the first time and below are the result for the front, center and subwoofer after the 8 positions. Please let me know what do you think.

Thanks,
Jose

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post #5524 of 7146 Old 11-12-2018, 05:28 PM
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Looks good!
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post #5525 of 7146 Old 11-12-2018, 05:49 PM
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Read some more about it...

Wow, thanks.


I'll read the article closely soon, when I can give it the attention it deserves, but, for now, I just want to say two things:
  • It's commendable that they published what may have been the basis for the proprietary and commercial venture later on. I don't know how many iterations followed, or when they got something patentable, but the article was published in 2001, when they may have still been vulnerable. I think I first heard of Audyssey (but not by that name) in 2005. It hit the NY Times in 2011. "Public and verifiable" is near the heart of science.
  • It's interesting that for position 2, a single point measurement was "better" (lower number) than both the average and the SAM, while for other positions the results got better with the average, and the best with fuzzy SAM. I don't know what I'm making of that, but maybe people who dislike Audyssey had bad luck in selecting their MLP.
I highly appreciate Audyssey. I can't afford Dirac. Audyssey has made more difference in my sound than any amplifier, player, or other device I've acquired in recent years. It's so nice that some methodology and results are available for our scrutiny. Contrast that with a Miraculous Sound Enhancer with no documentation to place in your music room, or magic elevators to hang your speaker cable from, or a brain vitalizer "first discovered in jellyfish."
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post #5526 of 7146 Old 11-12-2018, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by jabe00 View Post
Hello,

I was able to run Audyssey with the Android App for the first time and below are the result for the front, center and subwoofer after the 8 positions. Please let me know what do you think.

Thanks,
Jose

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

How does it sound? Looks generally good, but the Left and Right take a big dip above 3K Hz, but not your center! You could be losing some detail and shimmer in the highs. How do cymbal crashes, brass and violins sound?

I don't know why Audyssey didn't provide a little more correction above 3K -- it has 9 dB to work with. Did you have it set up, somehow, to only work below 3K?

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post #5527 of 7146 Old 11-12-2018, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
How does it sound? Looks generally good, but the Left and Right take a big dip above 3K Hz, but not your center! You could be losing some detail and shimmer in the highs. How do cymbal crashes, brass and violins sound?

I don't know why Audyssey didn't provide a little more correction above 3K -- it has 9 dB to work with. Did you have it set up, somehow, to only work below 3K?
Thanks for your answers, I appreciate.

You know, last night after I ran I was listen some music different types just to test a little how sound and while listening I was thinking that something was not right, like something was missing and know that you mentioned I started thinking and yes, you right some sound were missing, not like a lot but simple was no there.

Do you think is something that can be worked out?

For the question about if I have set it up for the 3K, the answer is no, I didn't set anything.


I'm adding the results for my Surrounds Speakers as the levels.

Thanks,


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post #5528 of 7146 Old 11-13-2018, 02:57 AM
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
[LIST][*]It's commendable that they published what may have been the basis for the proprietary and commercial venture later on. I don't know how many iterations followed, or when they got something patentable, but the article was published in 2001, when they may have still been vulnerable. I think I first heard of Audyssey (but not by that name) in 2005. It hit the NY Times in 2011. "Public and verifiable" is near the heart of science.
Well, they also patented their inventions. Here is one of them https://patentimages.storage.googlea...30235318A1.pdf
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post #5529 of 7146 Old 11-13-2018, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by jabe00 View Post
Hello,

I was able to run Audyssey with the Android App for the first time and below are the result for the front, center and subwoofer after the 8 positions. Please let me know what do you think.

Thanks,
Jose

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
Are your L/R speakers toed in or straight forward? I would try to have them toed in pointed at MLP or close too.
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post #5530 of 7146 Old 11-13-2018, 07:02 AM
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Are your L/R speakers toed in or straight forward? I would try to have them toed in pointed at MLP or close too.
Hello,

They are straight forward, I'll point to mlp and I'll run again.

Thanks
Jose

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post #5531 of 7146 Old 11-13-2018, 07:12 AM
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Hello,

They are straight forward, I'll point to mlp and I'll run again.

Thanks
Jose

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That is probably why you have such a difference in HF response versus your center. Toe them in and rerun Audyssey.
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post #5532 of 7146 Old 11-13-2018, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by jabe00 View Post
Hello,

I was able to run Audyssey with the Android App for the first time and below are the result for the front, center and subwoofer after the 8 positions. Please let me know what do you think.

Thanks,
Jose

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
If toeing in doesn't change the left/right speakers treble response, I would check the tweeters. It almost looks like they may not be functioning correctly.
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post #5533 of 7146 Old 11-13-2018, 10:00 AM
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^ Agreed, something isn't right there, the front FR drops off and we've barely reached the MRC!
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post #5534 of 7146 Old 11-13-2018, 01:42 PM
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If toeing in doesn't change the left/right speakers treble response, I would check the tweeters. It almost looks like they may not be functioning correctly.
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^ Agreed, something isn't right there, the front FR drops off and we've barely reached the MRC!
Looks like his tweeters are not working at all on speakers with a +- 3KHz x-over. Maybe the jumpers are disconnected on the binding posts?
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post #5535 of 7146 Old 11-13-2018, 02:06 PM
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Looks like his tweeters are not working at all on speakers with a +- 3KHz x-over. Maybe the jumpers are disconnected on the binding posts?

Hope its only the jumpers, which is an easy fix, and not a case of blown-out tweeters. BTW, what brand/model speakers are these jabe00?
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post #5536 of 7146 Old 11-13-2018, 03:03 PM
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Looks like his tweeters are not working at all on speakers with a +- 3KHz x-over. Maybe the jumpers are disconnected on the binding posts?
Thanks, i'll see if I can open and see if they are connected

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post #5537 of 7146 Old 11-13-2018, 03:04 PM
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Hope its only the jumpers, which is an easy fix, and not a case of blown-out tweeters. BTW, what brand/model speakers are these jabe00?
Hope it's, but I'm more inclined for the blown out.

Those are Energy RC-70

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post #5538 of 7146 Old 11-13-2018, 03:10 PM
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Hope it's, but I'm more inclined for the blown out.

Those are Energy RC-70

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To judge a blown-out speaker you may play some well known contents and put your ear up close to the tweeter, like 1 inch, and listen carefully.
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post #5539 of 7146 Old 11-13-2018, 03:52 PM
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I tend to doubt that it is the tweeters.

If the graphs in green are Audyssey's actual measurements (perhaps due to two blown tweeters),

and

If the graphs in red represent the predicted response in the room after correction, not an actual measurement in the room after Audyssey did its thing,

wouldn't that mean that Audyssey detected a serious roll off above 2K (green) at maybe as much as 20 dB/octave (I'm going cross-eyed trying to read those tiny unlabeled graphs) and "decided" to do nothing whatsoever about it? Wouldn't that, besides being unlikely, mean Audyssey was suffering from serious cognitive and emotional problems, or that the high frequency crew is on strike?
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post #5540 of 7146 Old 11-13-2018, 04:01 PM
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I tend to doubt that it is the tweeters.

If the graphs in green are Audyssey's actual measurements (perhaps due to two blown tweeters),

and

If the graphs in red represent the predicted response in the room after correction, not an actual measurement in the room after Audyssey did its thing,

wouldn't that mean that Audyssey detected a serious roll off above 2K (green) at maybe as much as 20 dB/octave (I'm going cross-eyed trying to read those tiny unlabeled graphs) and "decided" to do nothing whatsoever about it? Wouldn't that, besides being unlikely, mean Audyssey was suffering from serious cognitive and emotional problems, or that the high frequency crew is on strike?
Audyssey has a limit to amount of boost it will apply. i think it is 6db. The response was so bad there was nothing audyssey could do about it. The green is the actual measurements.
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post #5541 of 7146 Old 11-13-2018, 04:03 PM
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wouldn't that mean that Audyssey detected a serious roll off above 2K (green) at maybe as much as 20 dB/octave (I'm going cross-eyed trying to read those tiny unlabeled graphs) and "decided" to do nothing whatsoever about it?
Yes, I believe Audyssey is designed to not apply any correction below LF rolloff and above HF rolloff.

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post #5542 of 7146 Old 11-13-2018, 04:11 PM
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Audyssey has a limit to amount of boost it will apply. i think it is 6db. The response was so bad there was nothing audyssey could do about it. The green is the actual measurements.
I think Chris K. said it was 9 dB, as far as boost is concerned, with a bigger cut also available.

So are you saying Audyssey has a function that causes it to do nothing if response in a given part of the frequency spectrum is too far off, i.e., more than can be corrected for, rather than providing a partial correction, such as the 9 dB boost limit?

I know it won't provide compensation below the F3 in the bass, but is that true at the high end too? But not in the middle?

It seems to be ear to the tweeter time. He should use an old paper towel tube if the signal is too faint. The test noise in an AVR is not suitable, because most of them are band limited to 500 to 2K. Music with a lot of treble, or unlimited pink or white noise would be O.K., but keep the volume down to avoid blowing out the tweeter, if it is working.

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I think Chris K. said it was 9 dB, as far as boost is concerned, with a bigger cut also available.


So are you saying Audyssey has a function that causes it to do nothing if response in a given part of the frequency spectrum is too far off, i.e., more than can be corrected for, rather than providing a partial correction, such as the 9 dB boost limit?



I know it won't provide compensation below the F3 in the bass, but is that true at the high end too? But not in the middle?


I am saying there is some issue with his speaker. That is it. I don’t think the problem has anything to do with audyssey. All his other speaker measurements look normal.


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post #5544 of 7146 Old 11-13-2018, 06:27 PM
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jabe00, even at 30 degrees off axis, the low point of your speakers' frequency response is only - 7 dB at 15K Hz, according to the independent testing lab at Hone Audio Equipment Measurement at www.soundstage.com. That's better than they got for the YG Anat Reference (Main module) that originally cost $28,000 and, with the other module, was modestly advertised as "The World's Best Loudspeaker."



If your speakers are not toed in, and your soundstage is wide enough, and you sit close, you could be as far as, say, 45 degrees off axis. But even there, you would get better tweeter response, I would think.


Let us know the results of putting your ear to the tweeter, and we'll go from there.



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post #5545 of 7146 Old 11-13-2018, 06:57 PM
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jabe00, even at 30 degrees off axis, the low point of your speakers' frequency response is only - 7 dB at 15K Hz, according to the independent testing lab at Hone Audio Equipment Measurement at www.soundstage.com. That's better than they got for the YG Anat Reference (Main module) that originally cost $28,000 and, with the other module, was modestly advertised as "The World's Best Loudspeaker."



If your speakers are not toed in, and your soundstage is wide enough, and you sit close, you could be as far as, say, 45 degrees off axis. But even there, you would get better tweeter response, I would think.


Let us know the results of putting your ear to the tweeter, and we'll go from there.


I'll test those tweeter in a couple minutes.


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post #5546 of 7146 Old 11-13-2018, 08:15 PM
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I'll test those tweeter in a couple minutes.


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All of you were right those tweeter were burned.

I exchange with my other older bookshelf speaker same line RC that use the same tweeter and the sound is coming now.

Both of them were wasted.

I'll run Audyssey again and I'll post the results.

Here is a picture with my old RC bookshelf speaker and my RC Tower

I also pointed my towers around 35 degrees to the mlp.



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post #5547 of 7146 Old 11-13-2018, 08:50 PM
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Hello,

Bellow the results after the tweeter change in both front speakers.

8 positions completed

Thanks,
Jose

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post #5548 of 7146 Old 11-13-2018, 11:11 PM
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Hello,

Bellow the results after the tweeter change in both front speakers.

8 positions completed

Thanks,
Jose

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Hallelujah!



Now, do you remember any time when you really blasted the music, or pulled out a RCA plug, or turned up a test disk, or otherwise ran a very loud sound through the speakers that took out those tweeters? If you recall such a time, whatever it was, don't do that!



The sensitivity of the RC 70 is on the low side at 87.5 dB and Energy recommends 250 watt maximum amplifier power. It would take all of that to reach the brief peak Reference level of 105 dB at 3 meters from the speaker in an average room, if my calculations are correct. I'd think it would be safest to keep the volume at a somewhat lower level, to protect your tweeters. Most people do run movies and music at a lower level; I get the impression that most on the forum keep their peaks to about 95 dB, 10 dB below reference, or somewhere around 25 watts, in your case.
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post #5549 of 7146 Old 11-14-2018, 09:08 AM
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Hey Audyssey guru’s....

I have a 5.1 disc from OmniMic, to check my subs audyssey response run the sweeps without dynamic eq ???

Is that it ?
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post #5550 of 7146 Old 11-14-2018, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post
Hey Audyssey guru’s....

I have a 5.1 disc from OmniMic, to check my subs audyssey response run the sweeps without dynamic eq ???

Is that it ?
Pretty much. You can run both with and without dynamic EQ so you can see the difference. You measure LFE channel separately, or measurement the main channels with sub included via bass management to see how well things integrate at the crossover.
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