"Official" Audyssey thread Part II - Page 187 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5581 of 7078 Old 11-23-2018, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
We very rarely use DEQ, because, to us, it sounds a little less clear than without it.


Recently, however, we had a guest coming over who is allergic to loud sound, and we usually play movies at 5 dB below reference level. We knew we would have to turn it down, and didn't want to lose perceived bass. So, we tried DEQ, As usual, DEQ seemed to interfere with clarity just a little, but the extra bass seemed to be the right choice. We heard just a sliver of treble boost.

Thanks. I know what you mean about clarity. I think it does take a slight hit with DEQ on in some situations. OTOH, I typically watch movies around -18 to -15 (unless I'm watching something on Amazon). For some reason, many of those have awful audio and I have to crank it up. Anyway, since I'm pretty far away from ref level, DEQ does seem to work as intended, and bring back some fullness that I'm missing out on.
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post #5582 of 7078 Old 11-23-2018, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Overrid3 View Post
Thanks. I know what you mean about clarity. I think it does take a slight hit with DEQ on in some situations. OTOH, I typically watch movies around -18 to -15 (unless I'm watching something on Amazon). For some reason, many of those have awful audio and I have to crank it up. Anyway, since I'm pretty far away from ref level, DEQ does seem to work as intended, and bring back some fullness that I'm missing out on.

Coincidentally, a Main Volume setting of -15 dB with DEQ provides about 6.6 dB of bass boost, perhaps at 30 Hz (Mike?). We have made A/B comparisons of this v.s. with the bass tone control turned all the way up (i.e., at +6dB max). The tone controls are not usable unless DEQ is off. Here is the difference we noticed (at least with our sound system, room and ears):
  • DEQ sounds slightly heavier and deeper in the bass.
  • The music with the bass tone control at +6 is slightly clearer than with DEQ.
  • The impact of the attack might be greater with the tone control option (especially timpani, bass drum, and piano), and the deepness of the instruments (especially timpani, bass drum, piano) is greater with DEQ.
I would think the job the bass control has to do is pretty simple, and the job DEQ has to do is somewhat more complex.

.
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post #5583 of 7078 Old 11-23-2018, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
Coincidentally, a Main Volume setting of -15 dB with DEQ provides about 6.6 dB of bass boost, perhaps at 30 Hz (Mike?). We have made A/B comparisons of this v.s. with the bass tone control turned all the way up (i.e., at +6dB max). The tone controls are not usable unless DEQ is off. Here is the difference we noticed (at least with our sound system, room and ears):
  • DEQ sounds slightly heavier and deeper in the bass.
  • The music with the bass tone control at +6 is slightly clearer than with DEQ.
  • The impact of the attack might be greater with the tone control option (especially timpani, bass drum, and piano), and the deepness of the instruments (especially timpani, bass drum, piano) is greater with DEQ.
I would think the job the bass control has to do is pretty simple, and the job DEQ has to do is somewhat more complex.

.

A while back I turned of DEQ for music listening, but the sound was thin to me. It took some tweaking to get it better. Mainly what I did was boost my sub from 3-5 dB, and also go into the tone controls and boost bass by +3 or +4. This combo seemed to bring back some of the fullness and life to the music. Tonight, I turned DEQ back on for some music listening, and set the RLO to 10. This sounded very similar to my tweaked settings without DEQ.



I think DEQ on with the RLO at 10 still sounds a little better than trying to fuss with the tone controls. At this point, I just wonder if it's easier to leave DEQ on and let it do it's thing. If it's too bassy, I can just turn down my sub a little. Seems simpler.
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post #5584 of 7078 Old 11-24-2018, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
Coincidentally, a Main Volume setting of -15 dB with DEQ provides about 6.6 dB of bass boost, perhaps at 30 Hz (Mike?). We have made A/B comparisons of this v.s. with the bass tone control turned all the way up (i.e., at +6dB max). The tone controls are not usable unless DEQ is off. Here is the difference we noticed (at least with our sound system, room and ears):
  • DEQ sounds slightly heavier and deeper in the bass.
  • The music with the bass tone control at +6 is slightly clearer than with DEQ.
  • The impact of the attack might be greater with the tone control option (especially timpani, bass drum, and piano), and the deepness of the instruments (especially timpani, bass drum, piano) is greater with DEQ.
I would think the job the bass control has to do is pretty simple, and the job DEQ has to do is somewhat more complex.

.
Hi Gary,

As you say, what DEQ is doing is very complex. In fact, it is doing so many different things simultaneously, that it is hard to break-down DEQ's operation into individual impressions. To me, it's more of a gestalt impression that we either like or we don't. For instance, at -15 MV, DEQ would add ~3.3db to all of the speakers, including the subwoofer(s), from 120Hz down to 70Hz. Then, from 70Hz down to 30Hz, the bass boost would increase to 6.6db and would continue at that level below 30Hz.

At the same time, DEQ would be adding a little less than 3db to the frequencies above 10KHz. And, it would be boosting the volume of the surround channels by 3db. That's a lot of different things all happening at the same time. In addition to those volume adjustments to the bass and treble frequencies, and to the surround channels in general, DEQ is making "dynamic" adjustments on the fly, within the max adjustment limits defined above. That two-tiered action has never been fully described, but I take it to mean that DEQ turns up or down the bass/treble boosts in accordance with the program content at a particular moment.

I like the theory of some of what DEQ is trying to do. But, I rarely express my own opinion on DEQ unless specifically asked, as I don't particularly want to influence anyone else with my preferences. Personally, I have never liked DEQ for music. To me, it always accentuated the bass, in music, in a way that sounded unnatural. I think that in addition to personal preferences, the type of music someone was listening to could also be a factor. There may be music genres where that bass accent might be very desirable.

The fact that I prefer Audyssey Flat probably didn't help, with my music listening, as I like leaving my speakers in my treated room alone to play high-frequencies, without the roll-off of Audyssey Reference. But, the high-frequencies certainly didn't need to be boosted by DEQ, in that case. I think that DEQ was really designed to work best with the Reference setting. Those are the default settings after an Audyssey calibration.

I also didn't like DEQ for TV viewing. I found that too many TV shows (especially those on CBS and NBC) seemed to have boosted surround volumes, which DEQ exacerbated. There used to be an AVS thread about that. I used DEQ off-and-on for movies for at least a year or more, experimenting with both content and RLO settings. Ultimately, I chose clarity over excitement/boominess, with no DEQ, large bass boosts, and eventually, cascading crossovers.

As I switched back-and-forth between DEQ on and DEQ off, one of the things I started to notice was how abrupt DEQ sounded at times in action scenes. The bass volumes would suddenly get very loud in a way that seemed a little unnatural to me. It was exciting sounding, but not necessarily in a good way.

I finally attributed that to the two-tier operation that has never been fully defined. DEQ does not employ a listen-ahead feature. It adjusts bass volumes in real time. And, it seemed to me that the transitions were often a little too abrupt, as if DEQ were hurrying to catch-up with a bass boost, in a way that my own hearing found unnatural. If I listened to the same scenes with and without DEQ, I could tell a difference, and that was part of that gestalt impression that I formed. Eventually, I found that I just liked the overall sound quality much better without DEQ.

But, this is the reason that I seldom comment on DEQ anymore, beyond helping to explain its function, and to troubleshoot specific problems. With different rooms; different speakers; different content, at different listening levels; different settings; and different listener preferences; the use of DEQ is entirely a YMMV issue in my opinion.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #5585 of 7078 Old 11-24-2018, 08:34 PM
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Hello all, Just purchased an AVR-x2500h. During initial setup, i get a speaker detect error right after test tones are played through the left front speaker. I have followed all the troubleshooting, namely

Quote:
Try a different speaker cable - you may have a connection problem.
Check the speaker connectors on the back of the speaker. Do you have separate connectors for tweeter and woofer? If so, these can sometimes come loose, or the metal strip connecting the terminals together can become loose. If so, this will result in loss of sound from the tweeter or woofer and this will cause the speaker detect error.
Make sure the speaker is working correctly. Sometimes a driver in your speaker may be damaged - play content with high frequencies and put your ear close to the tweeter. Can you hear it working properly? Do the same for the other drivers. If you cannot hear one of the drivers, or it sounds strange in some way (rough, intermittent etc) then one of the drivers is not working and may need to be repaired or replaced.
Swap the speakers temporarily. For example, if the centre speaker is the problem, swap it with the left speaker. Does the problem now move to the left speaker? If so, then the centre speaker has a fault of some kind.
I did the following

1. Swapped in a new cable as I thought my wiring through my wall or my banana plugs could have been the problem. The new cable was just straight from the speaker to the AVR on the left speaker (only speaker that ever plays tones)
2. All 5.1 speakers in my system sound good playing any content I can throw at them
3. I also swapped the L and R speakers.


I'm thinking the mic may be bad as I hear the tones just fine from the front left speaker, but the receiver doesn't recognize them.

Thoughts? Help?

Thanks
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post #5586 of 7078 Old 11-25-2018, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Kofahl View Post
Hello all, Just purchased an AVR-x2500h. During initial setup, i get a speaker detect error right after test tones are played through the left front speaker. I have followed all the troubleshooting, namely



I did the following

1. Swapped in a new cable as I thought my wiring through my wall or my banana plugs could have been the problem. The new cable was just straight from the speaker to the AVR on the left speaker (only speaker that ever plays tones)
2. All 5.1 speakers in my system sound good playing any content I can throw at them
3. I also swapped the L and R speakers.


I'm thinking the mic may be bad as I hear the tones just fine from the front left speaker, but the receiver doesn't recognize them.

Thoughts? Help?

Thanks

Hi,

Sorry to hear that you are having problems! I don't think that the microphone could be at fault, in this case. It doesn't know the difference between your right front speaker and your left front speaker. It just measures whatever it hears. And, if it can hear and measure one front speaker, it should be able to hear and measure the other one. You can try a different microphone, but I am skeptical that it will make a difference.

If you have ruled-out problems with the speaker, via listening and by switching the speakers, and you have ruled-out problems with the speaker cable, then I think that the fault has to lie with the AVR itself. If all five channels are playing properly when you listen to them, it shouldn't be the channel input (that's a good thing) so I think that the problem must be within the Audyssey software program.

I would do several microprocessor resets of your AVR. Your owner's manual will tell you how to do that. Ideally, you will wait for the microprocessor to reset itself completely, each time, before testing Audyssey again. There is a chance that will work. If it doesn't, I'm afraid that you will have to send the AVR in, for service or exchange, if you want to have the full benefit of Audyssey.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #5587 of 7078 Old 11-25-2018, 10:04 AM
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Hi,

Sorry to hear that you are having problems! I don't think that the microphone could be at fault, in this case. It doesn't know the difference between your right front speaker and your left front speaker. It just measures whatever it hears. And, if it can hear and measure one front speaker, it should be able to hear and measure the other one. You can try a different microphone, but I am skeptical that it will make a difference.

If you have ruled-out problems with the speaker, via listening and by switching the speakers, and you have ruled-out problems with the speaker cable, then I think that the fault has to lie with the AVR itself. If all five channels are playing properly when you listen to them, it shouldn't be the channel input (that's a good thing) so I think that the problem must be within the Audyssey software program.

I would do several microprocessor resets of your AVR. Your owner's manual will tell you how to do that. Ideally, you will wait for the microprocessor to reset itself completely, each time, before testing Audyssey again. There is a chance that will work. If it doesn't, I'm afraid that you will have to send the AVR in, for service or exchange, if you want to have the full benefit of Audyssey.

Regards,
Mike
Mike,
To be clear, I don't think it measures anything. The tones come out of only the left front and then the process shuts down with the no speakers found error.i hear the tones loudly. The system never progresses to the next speaker, I assume because it hasn't found the first.
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post #5588 of 7078 Old 11-25-2018, 10:37 AM
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I had this problem with failing at the first speaker. Replace the audysey mic was the only fix for me to get it to work. I think my mic got shocked by static.
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post #5589 of 7078 Old 11-25-2018, 08:33 PM
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I had this problem with failing at the first speaker. Replace the audysey mic was the only fix for me to get it to work. I think my mic got shocked by static.
Same for me. I borrowed a mic and it works. I'll order a new one.
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post #5590 of 7078 Old 11-26-2018, 05:37 PM
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Can't find my problem yet in a search or the FAQ, so here goes-
Using Denon AVR 3400 with mic on a tripod, front speakers are Definitive Tech all 3 with subs in speakers set to large. Rears are def tech BP2X set to small - 4 total.
As I run position 1, all goes well with tones from all speakers.

Moving mic to position 2 (1-2 feet to left of position 1) and hit continue just like the onscreen guide shows and nothing. It says "measuring front speaker", but there is no test tone. The onscreen option is cancel and I can't go on to other speakers at all. The screen on reciever says "press enter/cancel". Doing so just takes me back a step.
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post #5591 of 7078 Old 11-26-2018, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by milesed1 View Post
Can't find my problem yet in a search or the FAQ, so here goes-
Using Denon AVR 3400 with mic on a tripod, front speakers are Definitive Tech all 3 with subs in speakers set to large. Rears are def tech BP2X set to small - 4 total.
As I run position 1, all goes well with tones from all speakers.

Moving mic to position 2 (1-2 feet to left of position 1) and hit continue just like the onscreen guide shows and nothing. It says "measuring front speaker", but there is no test tone. The onscreen option is cancel and I can't go on to other speakers at all. The screen on reciever says "press enter/cancel". Doing so just takes me back a step.
It's probably best to reset your receiver and run the calibration again. http://manuals.denon.com/AVRX3400H/EU/EN/GFNFSYvyalrwrt.php
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post #5592 of 7078 Old 11-27-2018, 08:27 PM
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I posted the message below over in the REW section, but wanted to ask over here, too. My situation is described in more detail below, but basically I'm wondering if it's OK to change the phase of my sub after the Audyssey calibration? It appears that the 180 setting is actually correct, but I've been running at zero all this time (including when I calibrated with Audy).



**original message**


Question about subwoofer phase—


I'm running a 3.1 setup with Wharfdale towers and center, and an SVS sub. Ever since I've set it up, I've had the sub phase dial at zero. I've always had some issues with music not sounding full enough (I listen in 2.1). My AVR is a Marantz with Audyssey XT32, and with EQ enabled, the speakers lose some of their bass. I did some measurements, and sure enough, these speakers have a bass hump centered around 100 Hz (see first graph).


Now with the Audyssey reference curve enabled, that hump goes away, BUT worse yet, it appears there is a trough centered around 90 Hz. I think this explains the lack of bass I hear in that area in pure direct mode vs Audyssey EQ'd mode.


I played around with different crossovers for my sub, but nothing seemed to really help. Pushing it all the way up to 120 Hz actually fixed that trough, but I don't think I want to cross it that high. Finally, I remember the phase knob on my sub. I changed it from zero to 180, and it looks like the low bass is a lot flatter. Everything else appears to be unaffected. I guess this is the correct setting?
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post #5593 of 7078 Old 11-28-2018, 10:12 AM
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No DEQ for music

Hi Guys,

I've been experimenting with AVR and sub settings and thought music should be next. Anyway was going to give music a go with no DEQ. So at the moment for my Vinyl listening I use Multi EQ Flat, DEQ on and RLO -5. I know I need to add bass after turning off DEQ and probably will add about 3-4db as I have 2db already added in AVR but where I'm confused is do I turn off just DEQ or do I turn off Multi EQ as well. Also after going no DEQ the tone controls would be just for the mains?
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post #5594 of 7078 Old 11-28-2018, 11:18 AM
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Would it be possible that adding a 3rd sub to my setup has caused some bass ranges to cancel out? I've recently hooked up a 3rd sub on the only other wall in my living room that I had a spot for it (open floor plan) and have re-run Audyssey 4 times now, with slight adjustments to mic position from one to the other, but every one has yielded the same result, which is a significant decrease in bass at my listening position. When I stand up and move around the room, the bass is there in spades, but gone from my listening position. My setup:

NAD T757 with the AM200 card - Audyssey XT
2 subs have the cables run in the walls and summed in a Y splitter going into the back of the wall plate.
Sub cable comes out of the wall plate and goes into another splitter, which my 3rd sub is also plugged into - Y into NAD
All subs use the "LFE in" port. Two of them are set to "Crossover Out" - third doesn't have this option. All are set to 80hz crossover, just in case.

Audyssey keeps saying the "sub may be out of phase" - this didn't happen before adding the 3rd sub, I don't think. I think I have all subs set to zero phase.

2 of the 4 times I ran Audyssey after the 3rd sub, it came back with suggested trim level of -2, whereas it suggested -10 before the 3rd sub and bass was about equal between -10 with 2 subs and -2 with 3 subs, which makes ZERO sense to me. The other 2 times, I did get it to suggest trim at -10, but the bass was non-existent at the listening position until I turned it all the way up to 0.

My method has been the one I saw suggested here - MLP, MLP+3" Horiz, MLP+3" Vert, etc.

I attached a drawing of my setup. I circled sub 3, the new one.
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Martin Logan Motion 40 mains
HSU ULS-15 MK2 and SVS PC-2000
NAD T757 with AM200 audio card
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post #5595 of 7078 Old 11-28-2018, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overrid3 View Post
I posted the message below over in the REW section, but wanted to ask over here, too. My situation is described in more detail below, but basically I'm wondering if it's OK to change the phase of my sub after the Audyssey calibration? It appears that the 180 setting is actually correct, but I've been running at zero all this time (including when I calibrated with Audy).



**original message**


Question about subwoofer phase—


I'm running a 3.1 setup with Wharfdale towers and center, and an SVS sub. Ever since I've set it up, I've had the sub phase dial at zero. I've always had some issues with music not sounding full enough (I listen in 2.1). My AVR is a Marantz with Audyssey XT32, and with EQ enabled, the speakers lose some of their bass. I did some measurements, and sure enough, these speakers have a bass hump centered around 100 Hz (see first graph).


Now with the Audyssey reference curve enabled, that hump goes away, BUT worse yet, it appears there is a trough centered around 90 Hz. I think this explains the lack of bass I hear in that area in pure direct mode vs Audyssey EQ'd mode.


I played around with different crossovers for my sub, but nothing seemed to really help. Pushing it all the way up to 120 Hz actually fixed that trough, but I don't think I want to cross it that high. Finally, I remember the phase knob on my sub. I changed it from zero to 180, and it looks like the low bass is a lot flatter. Everything else appears to be unaffected. I guess this is the correct setting?
OK, I know nothing about REW but I can comment on the Audyssey side of things and make some other comments.

First, in theory you should not change the sub phase setting after Audyssey calibration. The reason for that is that Audyssey measures and corrects for phase as well as for frequency response. Changing the sub's phase setting after calibration changes the sub's in room response from what it has determined will be the correct setting and it will change what you hear at the listening position.

Now, I don't know what's going on with the REW measurements because, as I said, I know nothing about REW but I can make the following observations:

- You'll be making your REW measurements with a different mic and a different test signal. That means that what you're measuring with REW and what Audyssey measures with its test tones are completely different in some important ways. How that difference is going to affect things is impossible to predict but if you could get an accurate readout of Audyssey and REW measurements after correction you would expect to see some differences because of it. Unfortunately we can't get an Audyssey readout after correction because Audyssey doesn't take any measurements after it does its corrections so we have no way of doing such a comparison.

- Audyssey does a number of measurements in a spaced pattern. When it comes to bass frequencies the result of those measurements is extremely dependent on mic location. Bass response in a room can change considerably in the space of a few inches. I've been in a room auditioning speakers and been unable to hear a prominent bass note at the listening position but on standing up and taking one step forward the same note was clear and loud. That's the most extreme variation in bass levels in a room that I've heard and it goes to show the importance of the listening/measuring position when assessing bass performance. If you didn't have your mic in EXACTLY the same position for the REW measurement as the Audyssey mic was in for the first Audyssey measurement and if the mics don't have EXACTLY the same response, then Audyssey and REW are going to give you different measurements. With measurements involving separate measurements at different locations and their integration, as occurs during Audyssey calibration, you would need to repeat the measurements with REW with a mic with identical response and placed in absolutely identical positions and do exactly the same integration calculations or the results are going to be different. I don't t think there's any way of doing that so there's always going to be differences.

- Audyssey is intended to produce a result that most people like over an area larger than a single listening position. It cannot produce the same result over the whole of that listening area but it tries to optimise the result so that wherever you sit in that area the sound you hear will sound good. That almost certainly means that the sound at the primary listening position, the first measurement position, is not going to deliver the best result at all frequencies, it will be better at some frequencies than other positions are, and worse at some than other positions are, and every position is going to be slightly different. Whether you use Audyssey or some other room correction system, no system can deliver identical results everywhere within a seating area that accommodates several people. That's simply impossible.

- Just because a particular measurement shows a dip like your 90 Hz dip doesn't mean that you will hear that dip. Our brains are remarkably good at processing the signals they get from our ears to "correct" for the kind of differences in level that occur in rooms at low frequencies. You really can't judge how good or bad the sound will appear to be at a particular position by looking at a measurement chart from measurements taken at that position. You really have to sit in that position and listen if you want to know what things sound like because our ears and brain work very differently to the way a microphone and measuring equipment work.

All of that leads to to 3 things:

1- How does the Audyssey result actually sound to you when listening to music in the listening position? If it sounds good, then that's what it's supposed to do and you can just stop worrying about measurements, no matter how bad they look. Change things to make the measurements look better and the sound will change and there's no guarantee that you will find the change in sound to be an improvement, it could easily sound worse.

2- If things don't sound good to you after Audyssey calibration then you can either change some of the things that Audyssey lets you change or repeat the calibration with slightly different mic positions in order to get a result that you do like.

3- If what you want is a result that delivers the best that Audyssey is capable of at just one single position then you can do the calibration process of several measurements without moving the mic to different positions, That should produce a result that one would expect to sound and measure best for that single position but it will probably also produce a result that sounds worse for other listening positions. If you listen on your own most of the time then this is a reasonable option but if there are usually other people listening with you then it's not something I'd recommend.

The bottom line is that you really should not obsess over what measurements show, what counts is the actual listening experience you have. If you enjoy the listening experience then that's a good result, if you don't then that's a bad result. What the measurements look like is irrelevant if it sounds good to you and those listening with you.

And if things don't sound quite right to you at the moment and changing the subwoofer phase setting to 180 degrees makes things sound better to you than they do if you don't change the phase setting, then change the phase setting. Just don't change it just because the measurements look better because the measurements are not always a good predictor of how things are going to sound and what's important is how they sound to you, not how they measure.
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post #5596 of 7078 Old 11-28-2018, 12:31 PM
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OK, I know nothing about REW but I can comment on the Audyssey side of things and make some other comments.

First, in theory you should not change the sub phase setting after Audyssey calibration. The reason for that is that Audyssey measures and corrects for phase as well as for frequency response. Changing the sub's phase setting after calibration changes the sub's in room response from what it has determined will be the correct setting and it will change what you hear at the listening position.

Now, I don't know what's going on with the REW measurements because, as I said, I know nothing about REW but I can make the following observations:

- You'll be making your REW measurements with a different mic and a different test signal. That means that what you're measuring with REW and what Audyssey measures with its test tones are completely different in some important ways. How that difference is going to affect things is impossible to predict but if you could get an accurate readout of Audyssey and REW measurements after correction you would expect to see some differences because of it. Unfortunately we can't get an Audyssey readout after correction because Audyssey doesn't take any measurements after it does its corrections so we have no way of doing such a comparison.

- Audyssey does a number of measurements in a spaced pattern. When it comes to bass frequencies the result of those measurements is extremely dependent on mic location. Bass response in a room can change considerably in the space of a few inches. I've been in a room auditioning speakers and been unable to hear a prominent bass note at the listening position but on standing up and taking one step forward the same note was clear and loud. That's the most extreme variation in bass levels in a room that I've heard and it goes to show the importance of the listening/measuring position when assessing bass performance. If you didn't have your mic in EXACTLY the same position for the REW measurement as the Audyssey mic was in for the first Audyssey measurement and if the mics don't have EXACTLY the same response, then Audyssey and REW are going to give you different measurements. With measurements involving separate measurements at different locations and their integration, as occurs during Audyssey calibration, you would need to repeat the measurements with REW with a mic with identical response and placed in absolutely identical positions and do exactly the same integration calculations or the results are going to be different. I don't t think there's any way of doing that so there's always going to be differences.

- Audyssey is intended to produce a result that most people like over an area larger than a single listening position. It cannot produce the same result over the whole of that listening area but it tries to optimise the result so that wherever you sit in that area the sound you hear will sound good. That almost certainly means that the sound at the primary listening position, the first measurement position, is not going to deliver the best result at all frequencies, it will be better at some frequencies than other positions are, and worse at some than other positions are, and every position is going to be slightly different. Whether you use Audyssey or some other room correction system, no system can deliver identical results everywhere within a seating area that accommodates several people. That's simply impossible.

- Just because a particular measurement shows a dip like your 90 Hz dip doesn't mean that you will hear that dip. Our brains are remarkably good at processing the signals they get from our ears to "correct" for the kind of differences in level that occur in rooms at low frequencies. You really can't judge how good or bad the sound will appear to be at a particular position by looking at a measurement chart from measurements taken at that position. You really have to sit in that position and listen if you want to know what things sound like because our ears and brain work very differently to the way a microphone and measuring equipment work.

All of that leads to to 3 things:

1- How does the Audyssey result actually sound to you when listening to music in the listening position? If it sounds good, then that's what it's supposed to do and you can just stop worrying about measurements, no matter how bad they look. Change things to make the measurements look better and the sound will change and there's no guarantee that you will find the change in sound to be an improvement, it could easily sound worse.

2- If things don't sound good to you after Audyssey calibration then you can either change some of the things that Audyssey lets you change or repeat the calibration with slightly different mic positions in order to get a result that you do like.

3- If what you want is a result that delivers the best that Audyssey is capable of at just one single position then you can do the calibration process of several measurements without moving the mic to different positions, That should produce a result that one would expect to sound and measure best for that single position but it will probably also produce a result that sounds worse for other listening positions. If you listen on your own most of the time then this is a reasonable option but if there are usually other people listening with you then it's not something I'd recommend.

The bottom line is that you really should not obsess over what measurements show, what counts is the actual listening experience you have. If you enjoy the listening experience then that's a good result, if you don't then that's a bad result. What the measurements look like is irrelevant if it sounds good to you and those listening with you.

And if things don't sound quite right to you at the moment and changing the subwoofer phase setting to 180 degrees makes things sound better to you than they do if you don't change the phase setting, then change the phase setting. Just don't change it just because the measurements look better because the measurements are not always a good predictor of how things are going to sound and what's important is how they sound to you, not how they measure.

Thanks for the detailed answer! What you're saying makes sense. I didn't think about the fact that I measured 8 positions when running the Audy cal, and this was only at one. I should probably try moving the mini-DSP mic around with REW and see how the graph changes.


I listened a bit last night, and at 180 phase, the bass did seem a little smoother at my seating position. However, I think it didn't sound as powerful. I guess I need a second person to adjust the phase while I sit in my seat to really tell. It does sound like I should just trust Audy and stick with my original phase setting of zero, which is also what SVS recommends as a starting point. Even though that single REW graph shows a dip around 80 Hz, it's only around 5 dB, so not terrible.
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post #5597 of 7078 Old 11-28-2018, 01:56 PM
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Thanks for the detailed answer! What you're saying makes sense. I didn't think about the fact that I measured 8 positions when running the Audy cal, and this was only at one. I should probably try moving the mini-DSP mic around with REW and see how the graph changes.


I listened a bit last night, and at 180 phase, the bass did seem a little smoother at my seating position. However, I think it didn't sound as powerful. I guess I need a second person to adjust the phase while I sit in my seat to really tell. It does sound like I should just trust Audy and stick with my original phase setting of zero, which is also what SVS recommends as a starting point. Even though that single REW graph shows a dip around 80 Hz, it's only around 5 dB, so not terrible.
You might be a candidate for the "sub distance tweak". A few people have a link for the whole process in their signatures, but i believe the short version is to measure the center channel and subs, then go into the Audyssey setup and add 1-2 feet to the sub distance and remeasure. Keep adding a foot or two and when you get the flattest response near the crossover point (80 Hz) you should be done. I feel like I might be missing something and left out some details, so do a quick search and you should find it.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post56669252

I probably screwed that up, but post 527 in the "Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences".
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post #5598 of 7078 Old 11-28-2018, 02:10 PM
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Thanks for the detailed answer! What you're saying makes sense. I didn't think about the fact that I measured 8 positions when running the Audy cal, and this was only at one. I should probably try moving the mini-DSP mic around with REW and see how the graph changes.


I listened a bit last night, and at 180 phase, the bass did seem a little smoother at my seating position. However, I think it didn't sound as powerful. I guess I need a second person to adjust the phase while I sit in my seat to really tell. It does sound like I should just trust Audy and stick with my original phase setting of zero, which is also what SVS recommends as a starting point. Even though that single REW graph shows a dip around 80 Hz, it's only around 5 dB, so not terrible.
As you say, it's not a "terrible" dip. The other thing to consider when looking at a dip like this is time, the time window involved in the measurement. What we hear is the initial arrival and, following that, a series of reflections of the same sound. If some of those reflections arrive very close in time to the direct sound our brain "fuses" the direct sound and reflections together for some aspects of the sound including how loud it is so early reflections can act to "fill in" the dip so we don't hear it, but if the measurement technique measures the sound over a shorter interval than what our brain takes into account then the measurement shows something different to how we hear the sound.

I'm not surprised that setting the sub's phase to 180 degrees results in bass that doesn't sound quite as loud. As I said earlier, Audyssey does apply phase correction but it isn't limited to a choice between 0 degrees and 180 degrees so if Audyssey's correction is something other than the 180 degree change you can make at the sub, the Audyssey result should be a little louder than what you'll get shifting the phase to 180 degrees because that will shift the phase to some degrees out of phase. Some subs let you change phase continuously between 0 and 360 degrees but if your sub only lets you change it between 0 and 180 degrees then the odds are that neither setting will be actually correct but one of those settings is likely to be slightly louder than the other. The precisely correct setting should be louder than either but you can't set that at the sub if you only have 2 options.

One other thing: it's really hard to make judgements about better or worse when what you're hearing is that it sounds different. We expect to hear what we're used to and if the change isn't big enough to make us think "that's really good" what we hear is something we're not used to and we tend to interpret that as sounding worse. The only way to avoid that is to run with the way Audyssey sets things for a period of several days to a week or so until you get used to it and see what you think then. Often you find that your opinion changes once you get used to the new sound. Try living with the Audyssey result for a week or so and see what you're thinking then. There's more to good bass than just volume and other factors are involved but while you're listening for just one thing you often miss noticing the other things which will have changed.

There's a lot more going on with how we hear sound than we tend to think, and a lot more than a simple frequency response measurement can show. Measurements tell us a lot about what's measured but nothing at all about what isn't being measured and sometimes the things which aren't being measured are more important to how we hear things than what is being measured. Ultimately the only thing that really counts, if the reason we're listening is for enjoyment, is whether or not we're enjoying what we're hearing, not what any particular measurement shows.
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As you say, it's not a "terrible" dip. The other thing to consider when looking at a dip like this is time, the time window involved in the measurement. What we hear is the initial arrival and, following that, a series of reflections of the same sound. If some of those reflections arrive very close in time to the direct sound our brain "fuses" the direct sound and reflections together for some aspects of the sound including how loud it is so early reflections can act to "fill in" the dip so we don't hear it, but if the measurement technique measures the sound over a shorter interval than what our brain takes into account then the measurement shows something different to how we hear the sound.

I'm not surprised that setting the sub's phase to 180 degrees results in bass that doesn't sound quite as loud. As I said earlier, Audyssey does apply phase correction but it isn't limited to a choice between 0 degrees and 180 degrees so if Audyssey's correction is something other than the 180 degree change you can make at the sub, the Audyssey result should be a little louder than what you'll get shifting the phase to 180 degrees because that will shift the phase to some degrees out of phase. Some subs let you change phase continuously between 0 and 360 degrees but if your sub only lets you change it between 0 and 180 degrees then the odds are that neither setting will be actually correct but one of those settings is likely to be slightly louder than the other. The precisely correct setting should be louder than either but you can't set that at the sub if you only have 2 options.

One other thing: it's really hard to make judgements about better or worse when what you're hearing is that it sounds different. We expect to hear what we're used to and if the change isn't big enough to make us think "that's really good" what we hear is something we're not used to and we tend to interpret that as sounding worse. The only way to avoid that is to run with the way Audyssey sets things for a period of several days to a week or so until you get used to it and see what you think then. Often you find that your opinion changes once you get used to the new sound. Try living with the Audyssey result for a week or so and see what you're thinking then. There's more to good bass than just volume and other factors are involved but while you're listening for just one thing you often miss noticing the other things which will have changed.

There's a lot more going on with how we hear sound than we tend to think, and a lot more than a simple frequency response measurement can show. Measurements tell us a lot about what's measured but nothing at all about what isn't being measured and sometimes the things which aren't being measured are more important to how we hear things than what is being measured. Ultimately the only thing that really counts, if the reason we're listening is for enjoyment, is whether or not we're enjoying what we're hearing, not what any particular measurement shows.

Thanks. I listened a bit more tonight, and I'm not sure which setting is louder. In some songs, the 180 phase setting seems to have more bass, and others the 0 setting. It's hard to do alone, so I will have to try it next time I have company, and I can stay in my seat. BTW, my sub dial does go all the way from 0 to 180, but I didn't try many other settings.


One thing's for sure: I measured again tonight, at several spots on the couch, and they all have that dip around 80 Hz at phase zero. Going to 180 flattens out the low end much better, at least according to REW.


Since Audy only measure each speaker individually, it has no way to know if the sub and mains are interfering destructively, does it?
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post #5600 of 7078 Old 11-28-2018, 09:58 PM
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Thanks. I listened a bit more tonight, and I'm not sure which setting is louder. In some songs, the 180 phase setting seems to have more bass, and others the 0 setting. It's hard to do alone, so I will have to try it next time I have company, and I can stay in my seat. BTW, my sub dial does go all the way from 0 to 180, but I didn't try many other settings.


One thing's for sure: I measured again tonight, at several spots on the couch, and they all have that dip around 80 Hz at phase zero. Going to 180 flattens out the low end much better, at least according to REW.


Since Audy only measure each speaker individually, it has no way to know if the sub and mains are interfering destructively, does it?
To deal with the last thing first, yes it is possible for the sub and mains to interfere destructively but Audyssey should be able to tell whether that will occur. It has the data from the individual measurements and that includes phase data. If there's destructive interference going on then the sub and one or more of the mains are going to be out of phase with each other. That will be apparent from the individual measurements and Audyssey can control the phase of both sub and mains over the crossover region to avoid destructive interference. The problem with doing a measurement of the full frequency range with all speakers working is that you can't tell whether a dip is caused by destructive interference between speakers, whether it's room mode related, or whether it's a speaker problem. When you've got a full set of individual measurements you can make an educated guess as to what the cause is, for example you'll see 2 or more speakers being out of phase with each other over the crossover region if it's destructive interference, If it's a result of a room mode you'd expect to see a dip in one or more of the individual speaker responses (the dip need not be the same for each speaker since speaker location will affect how the room mode will be engaged) whereas with destructive interference there need not be a dip in each speaker's response, the responses simply need to be out of phase with each other. The Audyssey calibration should result in a minimisation of destructive interference behaviour while changing the phase setting on the subway increase the interference.

I know a bit about room acoustics, I've got some experience with Audyssey but no technical knowledge of how it works, and no knowledge of experience of REW at all so I really can't give you any advice on what REW measurements can tell you about what Audyssey is doing. All I can say is that in at least some ways you're trying to measure something with 2 different rulers which have been designed to be used in different ways, and you're trying to measure something which can change quite noticeably with changes in microphone, microphone location, and even how the microphone is pointed, when you make the measurements. I think it's going to be very unlikely that you would see similar measurement results from Audyssey and REW and getting a close to perfectly flat in room frequency response in the bass region is pretty difficult under any circumstances. What your measurements don't show, for example, is whether that dip is worse with Audyssey turned off than it is with Audyssey turned on. It's impossible to totally eradicate a modal dip but it can be reduced somewhat and it's possible that the dip you're seeing with REW is the best that Audyssey can do with that dip over the seating area covered by your measurement positions. I think I said in my original post that measurements can tell you a lot about what's measured but they tell you nothing about what isn't measured. Measuring everything is a lot harder than you may expect, especially if you're going to avoid differences in mic location and account for differences in mic responses when you're comparing 2 different measurement approaches, and the more things you measure the more complex the task of interpreting what the increased amount of data you have becomes.

In the end I keep coming back to the point that what counts most is how you feel about the result, whether or not it sounds good to you. I'm not trying to do a cop out when I say that. The fact is that different people have different preferences for how things should sound and what Audyssey does is based on studies of listener preferences. It isn't designed to produce a theoretically perfect result and there is no single result that will satisfy everyone equally. I think it's intended to satisfy more people than it doesn't but there's no way of telling whether you or I or any other individual listener is one of the people with a listening preference that it would be expected to satisfy. It's great to use if it gets you a result that you like more than the result you get if you don't use it but if it doesn't then you have to work with other options such as using your AVR's tone controls or an equaliser of some sort, some other room correction system, or physical acoustic treatments, or a combination of some of those things. I wish there was a method to do a setup process and get a result that was guaranteed to make the user perfectly happy but there is no such method and whatever method we use we're going to end up judging its success or failure by how it sounds to us when we're listening.
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post #5601 of 7078 Old 11-29-2018, 06:34 AM
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To deal with the last thing first, yes it is possible for the sub and mains to interfere destructively but Audyssey should be able to tell whether that will occur. It has the data from the individual measurements and that includes phase data. If there's destructive interference going on then the sub and one or more of the mains are going to be out of phase with each other. That will be apparent from the individual measurements and Audyssey can control the phase of both sub and mains over the crossover region to avoid destructive interference. The problem with doing a measurement of the full frequency range with all speakers working is that you can't tell whether a dip is caused by destructive interference between speakers, whether it's room mode related, or whether it's a speaker problem. When you've got a full set of individual measurements you can make an educated guess as to what the cause is, for example you'll see 2 or more speakers being out of phase with each other over the crossover region if it's destructive interference, If it's a result of a room mode you'd expect to see a dip in one or more of the individual speaker responses (the dip need not be the same for each speaker since speaker location will affect how the room mode will be engaged) whereas with destructive interference there need not be a dip in each speaker's response, the responses simply need to be out of phase with each other. The Audyssey calibration should result in a minimisation of destructive interference behaviour while changing the phase setting on the subway increase the interference.

I know a bit about room acoustics, I've got some experience with Audyssey but no technical knowledge of how it works, and no knowledge of experience of REW at all so I really can't give you any advice on what REW measurements can tell you about what Audyssey is doing. All I can say is that in at least some ways you're trying to measure something with 2 different rulers which have been designed to be used in different ways, and you're trying to measure something which can change quite noticeably with changes in microphone, microphone location, and even how the microphone is pointed, when you make the measurements. I think it's going to be very unlikely that you would see similar measurement results from Audyssey and REW and getting a close to perfectly flat in room frequency response in the bass region is pretty difficult under any circumstances. What your measurements don't show, for example, is whether that dip is worse with Audyssey turned off than it is with Audyssey turned on. It's impossible to totally eradicate a modal dip but it can be reduced somewhat and it's possible that the dip you're seeing with REW is the best that Audyssey can do with that dip over the seating area covered by your measurement positions. I think I said in my original post that measurements can tell you a lot about what's measured but they tell you nothing about what isn't measured. Measuring everything is a lot harder than you may expect, especially if you're going to avoid differences in mic location and account for differences in mic responses when you're comparing 2 different measurement approaches, and the more things you measure the more complex the task of interpreting what the increased amount of data you have becomes.

In the end I keep coming back to the point that what counts most is how you feel about the result, whether or not it sounds good to you. I'm not trying to do a cop out when I say that. The fact is that different people have different preferences for how things should sound and what Audyssey does is based on studies of listener preferences. It isn't designed to produce a theoretically perfect result and there is no single result that will satisfy everyone equally. I think it's intended to satisfy more people than it doesn't but there's no way of telling whether you or I or any other individual listener is one of the people with a listening preference that it would be expected to satisfy. It's great to use if it gets you a result that you like more than the result you get if you don't use it but if it doesn't then you have to work with other options such as using your AVR's tone controls or an equaliser of some sort, some other room correction system, or physical acoustic treatments, or a combination of some of those things. I wish there was a method to do a setup process and get a result that was guaranteed to make the user perfectly happy but there is no such method and whatever method we use we're going to end up judging its success or failure by how it sounds to us when we're listening.

Thanks for the info. I will probably just leave the sub at the original setting of zero. Listening to music doesn't sound a whole heck of a lot different either way. Sometimes messing around with meters and measurements can be like going down the rabbit hole, haha.



The biggest difference I hear with music is Audy on vs off (listening in pure direct). My speakers have a bass hump around 100 Hz, and there is a bit more thump there with Audy off. With Audy on, that hump goes away, and I think I can hear the midrange dip being applied, too. Both ways sound OK, depending on my mood and the song.
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Thanks for the info. I will probably just leave the sub at the original setting of zero. Listening to music doesn't sound a whole heck of a lot different either way. Sometimes messing around with meters and measurements can be like going down the rabbit hole, haha.



The biggest difference I hear with music is Audy on vs off (listening in pure direct). My speakers have a bass hump around 100 Hz, and there is a bit more thump there with Audy off. With Audy on, that hump goes away, and I think I can hear the midrange dip being applied, too. Both ways sound OK, depending on my mood and the song.

Also, FWIW, here's what the Audyssey app thinks it measured for my sub:
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Thanks for the info. I will probably just leave the sub at the original setting of zero. Listening to music doesn't sound a whole heck of a lot different either way. Sometimes messing around with meters and measurements can be like going down the rabbit hole, haha.



The biggest difference I hear with music is Audy on vs off (listening in pure direct). My speakers have a bass hump around 100 Hz, and there is a bit more thump there with Audy off. With Audy on, that hump goes away, and I think I can hear the midrange dip being applied, too. Both ways sound OK, depending on my mood and the song.

Please note, in "Pure Direct" mode with the exception of the Volume Control every other digital signal processing is turned off automatically, including Audyssey. Please check your setting again. Hope this helps!
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post #5604 of 7078 Old 11-29-2018, 11:49 AM
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Thanks. I listened a bit more tonight, and I'm not sure which setting is louder. In some songs, the 180 phase setting seems to have more bass, and others the 0 setting. It's hard to do alone, so I will have to try it next time I have company, and I can stay in my seat. BTW, my sub dial does go all the way from 0 to 180, but I didn't try many other settings.


One thing's for sure: I measured again tonight, at several spots on the couch, and they all have that dip around 80 Hz at phase zero. Going to 180 flattens out the low end much better, at least according to REW.


Since Audy only measure each speaker individually, it has no way to know if the sub and mains are interfering destructively, does it?
Did you miss this post, Overrid3? The Sub Distance Tweak will fix the issue you are trying to put a band-aid on with the phase dial.
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Did you miss this post, Overrid3? The Sub Distance Tweak will fix the issue you are trying to put a band-aid on with the phase dial.

Thanks. I was thinking of trying that, but seems like an awful lot of work when the phase dial smooths out that region. Not sure how much more improvement I can really hope for without room treatments.
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Please note, in "Pure Direct" mode with the exception of the Volume Control every other digital signal processing is turned off automatically, including Audyssey. Please check your setting again. Hope this helps!

Yep. I wanted a baseline with everything turned off, so I took a measurement in pure direct to see what was happening. It appears the bass dip at 80 Hz is not caused by my mains alone. Then, I measured with Audyssey on in 2.1 mode. The dip is there at 0 phase on the sub, but not at 180 phase.


I should probably measure just the sub with Audy on, and just the mains as well, to see if that shows the dip.
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Thanks. I was thinking of trying that, but seems like an awful lot of work when the phase dial smooths out that region. Not sure how much more improvement I can really hope for without room treatments.
Not any more difficult than what your are doing when measuring and adjusting the phase dial...and, you would then be absolutely certain which delay setting would be the correct one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Overrid3 View Post
Yep. I wanted a baseline with everything turned off, so I took a measurement in pure direct to see what was happening. It appears the bass dip at 80 Hz is not caused by my mains alone. Then, I measured with Audyssey on in 2.1 mode. The dip is there at 0 phase on the sub, but not at 180 phase.


I should probably measure just the sub with Audy on, and just the mains as well, to see if that shows the dip.
Yes, and if the dip is not there on the sub alone or the mains alone (or center alone), guess what? The Sub Distance Tweak will fix it in about 5 minutes.
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post #5608 of 7078 Old 11-29-2018, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Not any more difficult than what your are doing when measuring and adjusting the phase dial...and, you would then be absolutely certain which delay setting would be the correct one.




Yes, and if the dip is not there on the sub alone or the mains alone (or center alone), guess what? The Sub Distance Tweak will fix it in about 5 minutes.

So if the dip shows up when Audy, the mains and the sub are all running, then it's most likely due to Audy setting the wrong distance for the sub. I can just go back to 0 phase, and play with the sub distance to see if that smooths things out?
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post #5609 of 7078 Old 11-29-2018, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Overrid3 View Post
So if the dip shows up when Audy, the mains and the sub are all running, then it's most likely due to Audy setting the wrong distance for the sub. I can just go back to 0 phase, and play with the sub distance to see if that smooths things out?
If you are mostly HT, you want to measure CC+subs. Mostly music, L or R+subs (not L+R+subs). Did you see my instructions that were linked to earlier?
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post #5610 of 7078 Old 11-29-2018, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
If you are mostly HT, you want to measure CC+subs. Mostly music, L or R+subs (not L+R+subs). Did you see my instructions that were linked to earlier?
Yeah, thanks. I'll give it a try. I use the system mostly for movies/TV, so CC + sub is probably most important.
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