"Official" Audyssey thread Part II - Page 189 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5641 of 7036 Old 12-04-2018, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by David Aiken View Post
Lots of things can affect the in room response of a speaker but position is most certainly one of them. Your centre speaker is almost certainly designed for use standing in relatively free space and sandwiched between 2 shelves is not in free space. I would bet on that having an effect, as well as the glass shelves having an effect, but I have no idea how much of an effect those things are going to have at the low end.

I'd try the experiment but there's no guarantee that it will affect the crossover setting.
I might give it a shot. If I can raise the screen enough to fit the center on that top shelf, that would probably help. I'm not really too worried about an 80 vs 100 Hz XO, but sometimes I don't think the center sounds as clear as it should, and maybe better positioning would help.
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post #5642 of 7036 Old 12-04-2018, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Overrid3 View Post
Cool. I don't hear much change between the center at 100 Hz vs 80, so might as well just stick with the Audy setting. This is more of a question for the speaker setup section, but I'm wondering if maybe my center placement has something to do with this. It's inside the shelving of an entertainment center, but I have it pushed forward so it overhangs the front edge a little. Also, the shelf if below ear level, but I do have the speaker angled up towards. This isn't ideal, but not sure where else I can put it since the correct position for it is right where the TV screen is.


My entertainment center has a pole in back to enable mounting the screen up in the air. If I can raise it high enough, I might be able to move the center channel to the top shelf of the unit. Then, it'd be higher, and also not between two panes of glass. Not sure if this is a worthwhile experiment?


Here's a shot of my current setup:
Whether or not it effects the frequency response of the CC (and it probably will), it is always a good idea to try and get the front three tweeters as close as possible in the horizontal plane. With them more in alignment, panning effects will sound more realistic.
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post #5643 of 7036 Old 12-04-2018, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Whether or not it effects the frequency response of the CC (and it probably will), it is always a good idea to try and get the front three tweeters as close as possible in the horizontal plane. With them more in alignment, panning effects will sound more realistic.

So here's where I ended up I think the sound is better and clearer now, but of course can't really do an A/B comparison. I'm sure this is a better position for the center from a technical standpoint. I wish I could put the screen just a little lower, but the speaker is just too tall. The screen height is a little more than I'd prefer, but maybe I will adjust to it. In reality, it's only about 9" higher than it was before. I even geeked out and cald'd the vertical viewing angle, which comes out to about 17 degrees, so I guess that's fairly reasonable.


I re-ran Audy after all this, and things sound very nice so far
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post #5644 of 7036 Old 12-04-2018, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Overrid3 View Post
So I just wanted to report back on this. Any doubts I had about my UMIK1 not providing correct info are gone. According to my measurements, there was that bass dip around 90 Hz, so I loaded up a test tone at that freq. and did some listening. At the Audyssey's default placement for my sub (11 ft), I could hear the tone, but barely. I thought maybe I blew out my sub or something That's how quiet it was. Then, I switched to my tweaked distance of 16 ft, and BAM, there was the bass. It's hard to judge, but it was probably at least 3x louder.


I guess the moral of the story is, Audyssey isn't just set it and forget it. I've done plenty of tweaks after the cal, including raising the XO on the mains, boosting the sub a little, making sure all speakers were set to small, etc. I thought I was done, but then I gotta go and start taking measurements with REW, lol. Anyway, this sub-distance tweak really works.


Also, what do you all think of midrange comp? I tried turning it off on my system, and I have to say, it sounded pretty awful. There was a definite harshness to music that made it very unpleasurable (is that a word) to listen to. In my room and with my speakers, I really think the "BBC dip" is the way to go.
Now I just tried to increase my sub distance of Audyssey determined of 2.52m to 2.82m, an increase of 1 ft and I would say listening to some music, I feel a slight increase in the bass volume but the biggest difference is in the tightness and deepness. I perceive it to go lower and tighter and it's like I have a new sub! That is on music and will test out some movies soon. I have no UMIK mic or REW so I wouldn't know how much to increase and when to stop
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post #5645 of 7036 Old 12-04-2018, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by kaydee6 View Post
Now I just tried to increase my sub distance of Audyssey determined of 2.52m to 2.82m, an increase of 1 ft and I would say listening to some music, I feel a slight increase in the bass volume but the biggest difference is in the tightness and deepness. I perceive it to go lower and tighter and it's like I have a new sub! That is on music and will test out some movies soon. I have no UMIK mic or REW so I wouldn't know how much to increase and when to stop
Cool. It's worth playing around with, but having REW and a mic really helps so you know what areas of the spectrum are being affected. Good luck
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post #5646 of 7036 Old 12-05-2018, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by kaydee6 View Post
Now I just tried to increase my sub distance of Audyssey determined of 2.52m to 2.82m, an increase of 1 ft and I would say listening to some music, I feel a slight increase in the bass volume but the biggest difference is in the tightness and deepness. I perceive it to go lower and tighter and it's like I have a new sub! That is on music and will test out some movies soon. I have no UMIK mic or REW so I wouldn't know how much to increase and when to stop

If you don't have measuring equipment, the distance tweak can be done with an SPL meter (or SPL app on a smartphone) and test tones downloadable from the internet, available on YouTube, from a test disc or with REW (free download).

  • For the Center Channel, set your AVR to the Dolby PLII surround mode (Dolby Surround on Atmost AVRs), you should be getting output from the CC + sub(s) only
  • For the FL/FR channels, set your AVR to the Stereo surround mode, you should be getting output from the FL/FR + sub(s) only
  • Invert phase on your subwoofer(s)
  • Play a sine wave that corresponds to your crossover frequency (i.e. 80hz) and measure the output with the SPL meter about a foot in front of your face at the MLP
  • Gradually increase the sub distance setting in the AVR in 1' increments (on some AVRs you must make sure to back out of the distance setting menu before the new setting will take effect)
  • The sub distance setting that gives you the lowest SPL reading is the setting you want (you can tweak further in smaller increments if you want to, but I have found that 1' increments is usually sufficient)
  • Invert the phase on your sub again and you are done
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post #5647 of 7036 Old 12-05-2018, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
If you don't have measuring equipment, the distance tweak can be done with an SPL meter (or SPL app on a smartphone) and test tones downloadable from the internet, available on YouTube, from a test disc or with REW (free download).

  • For the Center Channel, set your AVR to the Dolby PLII surround mode (Dolby Surround on Atmost AVRs), you should be getting output from the CC + sub(s) only
  • For the FL/FR channels, set your AVR to the Stereo surround mode, you should be getting output from the FL/FR + sub(s) only
  • Invert phase on your subwoofer(s)
  • Play a sine wave that corresponds to your crossover frequency (i.e. 80hz) and measure the output with the SPL meter about a foot in front of your face at the MLP
  • Gradually increase the sub distance setting in the AVR in 1' increments (on some AVRs you must make sure to back out of the distance setting menu before the new setting will take effect)
  • The sub distance setting that gives you the lowest SPL reading is the setting you want (you can tweak further in smaller increments if you want to, but I have found that 1' increments is usually sufficient)
  • Invert the phase on your sub again and you are done

Could you do this without inverting the phase on the sub, and tweak the distance until you get the highest reading? With REW, I left my sub at zero phase the whole time, and adjusted the distance in my AVR until the graphs looked better at the XO region.
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post #5648 of 7036 Old 12-05-2018, 08:15 AM
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With an SPL meter (or ap) and a sine wave, it's easier to see the dip than it is the rise, hence the inverted sub phase. Using a frequency sweep in REW, you can easily see what the best distance setting is.
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post #5649 of 7036 Old 12-05-2018, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
With an SPL meter (or ap) and a sine wave, it's easier to see the dip than it is the rise, hence the inverted sub phase. Using a frequency sweep in REW, you can easily see what the best distance setting is.

Ah, makes sense.
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post #5650 of 7036 Old 12-05-2018, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
If you don't have measuring equipment, the distance tweak can be done with an SPL meter (or SPL app on a smartphone) and test tones downloadable from the internet, available on YouTube, from a test disc or with REW (free download).

  • For the Center Channel, set your AVR to the Dolby PLII surround mode (Dolby Surround on Atmost AVRs), you should be getting output from the CC + sub(s) only
  • For the FL/FR channels, set your AVR to the Stereo surround mode, you should be getting output from the FL/FR + sub(s) only
  • Invert phase on your subwoofer(s)
  • Play a sine wave that corresponds to your crossover frequency (i.e. 80hz) and measure the output with the SPL meter about a foot in front of your face at the MLP
  • Gradually increase the sub distance setting in the AVR in 1' increments (on some AVRs you must make sure to back out of the distance setting menu before the new setting will take effect)
  • The sub distance setting that gives you the lowest SPL reading is the setting you want (you can tweak further in smaller increments if you want to, but I have found that 1' increments is usually sufficient)
  • Invert the phase on your sub again and you are done

I am confused. Why would you want to set the distance to the lowest SPL reading?
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post #5651 of 7036 Old 12-05-2018, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Juiced46 View Post
I am confused. Why would you want to set the distance to the lowest SPL reading?
Because it's measuring at phase invert. Once you put back to the orignal phase, it will be the loudest.
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post #5652 of 7036 Old 12-05-2018, 09:00 PM
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Is it possible to get an extra long extension cable for the Audyssey calibration mics?

I'm planning on integrating the system in my main floor open concept living room into a Middle Atlantic rack in the basement. The system will then be controlled with a Harmony Elite remote and hub that will control the gear in the basement.

The rack will have:
Denon AVR-X3200 receiver
4K Blu-Ray Player (TBD)
4K Cable Box
Possibly a media player that supports 4K HDR/DV and Atmos with Netflix and Amazon Prime and on demand movie rentals (if someone figures out how to do that properly)

Rest of the 5.1.2 system:
Vizio M55 4K Display
Rythmik L-12 subwoofer
GoldenEar 3D Array X Front L/C/R
GoldenEar Invisa 525 will be installed as in-wall front height Atmos channels (installed 9' high on front wall)
GoldenEar Invisa 525 (or HTR 7000) will be installed in-ceiling behind MLP as surround L/R

I'm currently just using the GE 3D Array X and the Rythmik L-12 in a 2.1 system using the noisy analog audio outputs from the TV into a Lepai amp hidden behind the wall-mounted TV. Also using an Outlaw OAW-4 wireless transmitter to the subwoofer.

I'm pulling the Denon X3200 out of my main system that's being upgraded and integrating it (and expanding) the living room system, and then I started thinking, if I install all these in-wall speakers with the rack of gear hidden in the basement, how the heck am I going to calibrate the system with Audyssey?

Is it possible to get an extra long extension cable for the Audyssey mics? Other people with custom integrated systems must run into this issue?

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post #5653 of 7036 Old 12-06-2018, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Nick V View Post

Is it possible to get an extra long extension cable for the Audyssey mics? Other people with custom integrated systems must run into this issue?
Yes, this is information included in post 1 of this thread. Search "Extension" on page 1.
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post #5654 of 7036 Old 12-08-2018, 02:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaydee6 View Post
Now I just tried to increase my sub distance of Audyssey determined of 2.52m to 2.82m, an increase of 1 ft and I would say listening to some music, I feel a slight increase in the bass volume but the biggest difference is in the tightness and deepness. I perceive it to go lower and tighter and it's like I have a new sub! That is on music and will test out some movies soon. I have no UMIK mic or REW so I wouldn't know how much to increase and when to stop[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

If you don't have measuring equipment, the distance tweak can be done with an SPL meter (or SPL app on a smartphone) and test tones downloadable from the internet, available on YouTube, from a test disc or with REW (free download).

  • For the Center Channel, set your AVR to the Dolby PLII surround mode (Dolby Surround on Atmost AVRs), you should be getting output from the CC + sub(s) only
  • For the FL/FR channels, set your AVR to the Stereo surround mode, you should be getting output from the FL/FR + sub(s) only
  • Invert phase on your subwoofer(s)
  • Play a sine wave that corresponds to your crossover frequency (i.e. 80hz) and measure the output with the SPL meter about a foot in front of your face at the MLP
  • Gradually increase the sub distance setting in the AVR in 1' increments (on some AVRs you must make sure to back out of the distance setting menu before the new setting will take effect)
  • The sub distance setting that gives you the lowest SPL reading is the setting you want (you can tweak further in smaller increments if you want to, but I have found that 1' increments is usually sufficient)
  • Invert the phase on your sub again and you are done
How can I take these steps with two subwoofers? Should I do it for each one independently (1 sub at a time)? Or do I need two have them both powered on while doing this?

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post #5655 of 7036 Old 12-08-2018, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by kaydee6 View Post
Because it's measuring at phase invert. Once you put back to the orignal phase, it will be the loudest.
That makes sense. Thank you.
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post #5656 of 7036 Old 12-12-2018, 08:03 AM
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checking speaker trim post-audyssey with audyssey turned off using umik-1

and i am getting as much as 2db swings. I know that you are not supposed to check trim with audyssey turned on, but I assume you can let audyssey set trim, then turn it off to validate the speaker levels. any issues testing this with my umik-1?
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post #5657 of 7036 Old 12-12-2018, 08:07 AM
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Error rate of the Audyssey mic is +/-2dB.
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post #5658 of 7036 Old 12-12-2018, 10:35 AM
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first of all: of course you have to turn Audyssey ON for the level adjustment! You may want to switch Dynamic-EQ and Dynamic-Volume off!

I would compare/align the levels with my ears!
the ears are poor instruments for the absolute level but not that bad for direct comparison.
the big advantage: you adjust the level with instruments that have the same direction characteristic as you use for music/movie listening: your ears!
to which direction do you want to point your Umik-1? To the ceiling with 90° calibration? That means sound from behind is measured the same as directly from the front. My ears sense sound from the front louder as from behind.
not to mention reflexions and all that stuff.

and from my experience Audyssey Dynamic Volume increases the (back)surround speaker level at low volume by far too much.
so it depends on at which volume you usually listen.
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post #5659 of 7036 Old 12-13-2018, 08:34 PM
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"Official" Audyssey thread Part II

Just wondering how many run DEQ while watching Blu Ray and if so what offset do you use? I've been running it for cable etc on -10 with good results but trying out 0 on disc based movies since those theoretically would be reference level seems a little hot/boomy on bass. So I've just left it off. Just to note I don't manually bump my sub after running audyssey either. Also I have not tried it since going to a new receiver that does XT32 and my understanding better sub EQ. Went from a marantz 1606 to a Denon 4500h


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post #5660 of 7036 Old 12-13-2018, 08:55 PM
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I always used DEQ. If subs are still too hot even at -0 MV, time to turn down the sub trim/gain. Interesting that you didn't increase yours. What was your sub level(s) post-Audyssey?

I typically used an offset of 5.
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post #5661 of 7036 Old 12-13-2018, 09:59 PM
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I always used DEQ. If subs are still too hot even at -0 MV, time to turn down the sub trim/gain. Interesting that you didn't increase yours. What was your sub level(s) post-Audyssey?



I typically used an offset of 5.


Sorry for the confusion I meant 0 offset in DEQ. Post cal is -4 in audyssey. I typically watch movies about -10 to -15 MV. depending on how loud it was mastered


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post #5662 of 7036 Old 12-14-2018, 12:53 PM
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I have a 2 questions. Is it regarded as inferior to use the editor app over the on board processing for xt32? Or is it equal, assuming the user will not be making adjustments. (I have the app BTW) I will be relocating the top fronts.

The other question is, if audyssey sets speakers as different DB than others, should I leave them? Or is the point of calibration is to be the same DB at the MLP?

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post #5663 of 7036 Old 12-14-2018, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by camd5pt0 View Post
Is it regarded as inferior to use the editor app over the on board processing for xt32? Or is it equal, assuming the user will not be making adjustments. (I have the app BTW)
No. In fact, I prefer the app because of its flexibility and control.

Quote:
if audyssey sets speakers as different DB than others, should I leave them? Or is the point of calibration is to be the same DB at the MLP?
Yes. Setting those at different levels is to correctly adjust the sound to be at the same level (dB) at the MLP. It is doing just what you want.
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post #5664 of 7036 Old 12-14-2018, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camd5pt0 View Post
The other question is, if audyssey sets speakers as different DB than others, should I leave them? Or is the point of calibration is to be the same DB at the MLP?

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You need to differentiate between electrical dB and sound pressure level dB, although both are expressed in deciBels (dB).


So, in this regard different (electrial) dB levels (depending on each speaker's physical distance) set by MultEQ will render same SPL (sound pressure level) dB at MLP. That's the way it works.



Hope this clarifies matters.
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post #5665 of 7036 Old 12-14-2018, 03:41 PM
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Great thank so I won't mess with the results, reading the SPL db, under test tones?
If I were to afterwards make everything in test tones match same DB, I would be undoing the magic of Audyssey, causing sounds to arrive at MLP at a different time.

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post #5666 of 7036 Old 12-14-2018, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camd5pt0 View Post
Great thank so I won't mess with the results, reading the SPL db, under test tones?
If I were to afterwards make everything in test tones match same DB, I would be undoing the magic of Audyssey, causing sounds to arrive at MLP at a different time.

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It's not delay but "volume" so if you make them all match on the screen different speakers will be louder or softer. Audyssey is doing automatically what we used to do with test tones and a meter to balance the sound. The distance measurements are what is used to set the delay.


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post #5667 of 7036 Old 12-14-2018, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by flyinion View Post
Just wondering how many run DEQ while watching Blu Ray and if so what offset do you use?

I never use DEQ on Blu-Ray, DVD, Streaming, CD, SACD, or DVD-A, BUT I play movies at within a few dB of 5 dB below Reference Level (which is near THX guidelines for my size room), and music at perceived "concert level," so there would be little or no need for low Sound Pressure Level compensation. As you say, the mastering level, even on movies, varies (perhaps due to manipulating the dynamic range), so I correct the volume -- by ear -- when the dialogue starts, or sometimes on the Main Title music. In case you are wondering, the audience can't see any volume indicator on screen, or on any of the equipment, and no glowing LEDs when I do that.

All of that being said, the main reason I don't use DEQ is that it seems to make the sound a little less clear, with a little less of what audiophiles call "air" than without it. Neither boosting the subwoofer a bit, nor using the bass tone control (usable only when DEQ is off) produces this ill effect.

I generally use Audyssey FLAT, which lets through the aforementioned "air," but there are a few movies of the multichannel magnetic era* that I know had good sound, but seem to have a little mid or high frequency distortion and/or harshness in their BD or DVD incarnations; for these, I use plain Audyssey, and it mellows them out. There are only about 8 or 10 of these, but, unfortunately, they include some classics. Some can benefit from further EQ, using tone controls, sub level, etc. How did this happen? In regard to the high frequency distortion, the two major manufacturers of the very best theater and movie studio speakers (in those days), both of which had the very same "L word" in their company names, had frequency response that dropped like a rock above 10K Hz, even though one claimed not. During much of this time, their home speakers did not have this problem. The film mixers, and moviegoers, of the day might miss HF distortion because it was attenuated. As to possible harshness that might be hidden by using Audyssey's midrange compensation, the only thing I can think of that might have happened is that the people who do the engineering for transfer ("authoring") to Blu-ray might have never experienced these marvelous, warm, magnetic soundtracks due to the inconvenience of not having been born yet.

*approx. 1953 to about the mid '70s; 70mm projection continued to use 6 magnetic soundtracks for many years after.


I recommend these, for everyone:


Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences

Aud
yssey FAQ Linked Here


Last edited by garygarrison; 12-14-2018 at 06:24 PM.
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post #5668 of 7036 Old 12-14-2018, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyinion View Post
... Audyssey is doing automatically what we used to do with test tones and a meter to balance the sound ...

And Audyssey is probably doing a better job than you could do with a meter.
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post #5669 of 7036 Old 12-14-2018, 09:08 PM
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I've been using the Audyssey Flat setting and turned off midrange compensation based off recommendations made here. I watch 99% Blu-ray movies and PS4 vide games and haven't noticed any "harsh/bright" so just stuck with it. I figure speaker manufacturers take into account their internal crossovers and whatever the Audyssey compensation tried to emulate.

I listen about -10 from reference and I do use DEQ since I like what it aims to accomplish.

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post #5670 of 7036 Old 12-16-2018, 06:01 PM
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New to Denon coming off Pioneer with MCACC.

Ran the Audyssey and have a few questions. Have read some of the FAQ but still need help.

My setup is in a 20'x 12' dedicated media room with a 5.1 setup.
I have JBL590s for front with 550p JBL sub. with Denon x4400h.
Once I ran auto Audyssey XT32 it set my fronts to large with 40hz xover.
How can I change it to 80 hz and make the fronts small? Will doing it in the manual setting change the auto cals run by Audyssey? In the manual setting I made the changes but they do not show up on the auto Audyssey section and I do not see a way to change values in the auto section.

Also currently I have the sub setup as LFE+Main. The first post suggest not to do it? So should I just go with LFE only? Even though JBL590s are very capable speakers at low end, I want the sub to play below 80hz. In the manual setting I have the xover at 80hz and LPF set to 120Hz. Will this be effectively change the auto Audyssey settings?

Where can you see the Freq response graph of the Audyssey cals? Is it via laptop or the app? I do not have the paid app. Can it be done via the video monitor?

Thx!
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