"Official" Audyssey thread Part II - Page 190 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5671 of 7069 Old 12-16-2018, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by iafzal View Post
New to Denon coming off Pioneer with MCACC.

Ran the Audyssey and have a few questions. Have read some of the FAQ but still need help.

My setup is in a 20'x 12' dedicated media room with a 5.1 setup.
I have JBL590s for front with 550p JBL sub. with Denon x4400h.
Once I ran auto Audyssey XT32 it set my fronts to large with 40hz xover.
How can I change it to 80 hz and make the fronts small? Will doing it in the manual setting change the auto cals run by Audyssey? In the manual setting I made the changes but they do not show up on the auto Audyssey section and I do not see a way to change values in the auto section.

Also currently I have the sub setup as LFE+Main. The first post suggest not to do it? So should I just go with LFE only? Even though JBL590s are very capable speakers at low end, I want the sub to play below 80hz. In the manual setting I have the xover at 80hz and LPF set to 120Hz. Will this be effectively change the auto Audyssey settings?

Where can you see the Freq response graph of the Audyssey cals? Is it via laptop or the app? I do not have the paid app. Can it be done via the video monitor?

Thx!
I can answer a few of these. Manual setup is the right place to change settings. Audyssey section is just showing you what it found when it ran. It's ok to set your speakers to small and raise the xover from 40 to 80. What you don't want to do is go the other way because my understanding is if for instance audyssey decides 100hz is the proper crossover point for a channel it stops making corrections below that point or something like that. So if you set it to say 40hz it's uncorrected between 40-100 in that example. Yes I'd set to LFE only. The only reason to use LFE+Main is if you have any of your speakers set to full range instead of a crossover point.

Changing settings like this manually won't affect the audyssey corrections. What I've read is it "graphs out" and makes the corrections and crossover points etc. but the receiver then takes that info and actually uses it when outputting. Like, it doesn't actually know where audyssey stopped making corrections it just gets data that says what do do at each part of the spectrum and it has no idea and doesn't care that audyssey stopped correcting past a certain point, but if you change the crossover too low you'll be trying to play content that hasn't been corrected for room issues.

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post #5672 of 7069 Old 12-16-2018, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iafzal View Post


... I have JBL590s for front with 550p JBL sub. with Denon x4400h.


Once I ran auto Audyssey XT32 it set my fronts to large with 40hz xover.
How can I change it to 80 hz and make the fronts small? Will doing it in the manual setting change the auto cals run by Audyssey? In the manual setting I made the changes but they do not show up on the auto Audyssey section and I do not see a way to change values in the auto section.

Also currently I have the sub setup as LFE+Main. The first post suggest not to do it? So should I just go with LFE only? Even though JBL590s are very capable speakers at low end, I want the sub to play below 80hz. In the manual setting I have the xover at 80hz and LPF set to 120Hz. Will this be effectively change the auto Audyssey settings?

Where can you see the Freq response graph of the Audyssey cals? Is it via laptop or the app? I do not have the paid app. Can it be done via the video monitor? ...
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Originally Posted by flyinion View Post
I can answer a few of these. Manual setup is the right place to change settings. Audyssey section is just showing you what it found when it ran. It's ok to set your speakers to small and raise the xover from 40 to 80. What you don't want to do is go the other way because my understanding is if for instance audyssey decides 100hz is the proper crossover point for a channel it stops making corrections below that point or something like that. So if you set it to say 40hz it's uncorrected between 40-100 in that example. Yes I'd set to LFE only. The only reason to use LFE+Main is if you have any of your speakers set to full range instead of a crossover point.

Changing settings like this manually won't affect the audyssey corrections. What I've read is it "graphs out" and makes the corrections and crossover points etc. but the receiver then takes that info and actually uses it when outputting. Like, it doesn't actually know where audyssey stopped making corrections it just gets data that says what do do at each part of the spectrum and it has no idea and doesn't care that audyssey stopped correcting past a certain point, but if you change the crossover too low you'll be trying to play content that hasn't been corrected for room issues.
Yes, you can get a very crude graph of the corrections on the video monitor. If your Denon is like my Marantz (they are owned by the same parent company) you do it by going to Auto Setup, which then gives you a choice of Audyssey Auto Set-up (DON'T touch that one!) or Parameter Check. You want Parameter Check (or something synonymous). Click on that and select EQ check. It should present you with yet another choice: Audyssey (reference) or Audyssey FLAT. Click on the one you are using it will give you a set of graphs. The graphs are a little better than they used to be, but, to be good they would need many more data points. XT32 has thousands of possible correction points.

I agree with what flyinion said.

Other than that, you might need the Denon to English Handbook someone created -- but I don't think it has been updated very recently.

The FAQ almost everything you need at the start.

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post #5673 of 7069 Old 12-17-2018, 02:01 PM
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Gentlemen,

What happens with the bass when Audyssey sets the crossovers for LCR and S as small at 60hz and I set the LPF for LFE at 120 hz? Would I have bass coming from LCR and S AND sub at the same time? Is it recommended or should I set all to 80-110hz?

Thank you!
Gilson
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post #5674 of 7069 Old 12-17-2018, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by gsantosoliver View Post
Gentlemen,

What happens with the bass when Audyssey sets the crossovers for LCR and S as small at 60hz and I set the LPF for LFE at 120 hz? Would I have bass coming from LCR and S AND sub at the same time? Is it recommended or should I set all to 80-110hz?

Thank you!
Gilson

  • Audyssey doesn't really set crossovers (at least in the Auto setup -- I don't know about the App). Instead it reports, to the AVR, each speaker's F3 point (the frequency at which the speaker is 3 dB below average for that speaker, in that room, as measured by Audyssey's "pings," which actually contain every frequency from 20 to 20,000 Hz, although you'd never know that by listening to the pings). Once the AVR receives the "report" it sets the crossovers, according to the rules the AVR manufacturer sets up -- this may vary with the AVR manufacturer.
  • If your AVR has set an X-over below 80 Hz it's probably a good idea to move the crossover up to 80 Hz, to let your subwoofer do the heavy lifting. The sub is probably better than almost all main speakers below 80, and at this setting the burden is reduced on your main speakers, so both those main speakers and the power amplifier section of the AVR will have more available headroom. If your AVR has set an X-over above 80 Hz, it probably means the speaker, in that position in the room, is rolling off by 3 dB at a frequency higher than 80 Hz, so the X-over should be set at that higher frequency -- or higher.
  • Most people think "small" is the best setting for main speakers, no matter how big they are. I concur, but I resisted this for a couple of years. A series of tests over months convinced me that "small" provided the smoothest, cleanest response. AVR manufacturers are notorious for setting speakers to "large" because they think you want it that way.
  • Yes, bass will be coming out of your LCR, S, and the Sub at the same time, but it is mostly different bass content, except for the overlap at the crossover(s).
  • LFE is a completely separate bass source in the film mix where the filmmakers put bass effects, such as what I like to call "the infernal bass machine." The two sources, bass management bass and LFE bass get mixed together and sent out through the subwoofer output to your sub. Most people set the LPF for LFE at 120 Hz, while leaving their crossover for the rest of the bass (music, higher frequency effects, basso profundo dialogue, e.g. San Elliot's lowest octave) at 80 Hz, or whatever higher frequency the AVR recommends.
  • Almost every one turns up the subwoofer a little AFTER running Audyssey.
  • Mike Thomas wrote a much more nuanced set of instructions in his Subwoofer Guide, including how to turn up the sub without causing distortion: Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences

    Aud
    yssey FAQ Linked Here


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post #5675 of 7069 Old 12-19-2018, 03:32 PM
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Just wondering how many run DEQ while watching Blu Ray and if so what offset do you use? I've been running it for cable etc on -10 with good results but trying out 0 on disc based movies since those theoretically would be reference level seems a little hot/boomy on bass. So I've just left it off. Just to note I don't manually bump my sub after running audyssey either. Also I have not tried it since going to a new receiver that does XT32 and my understanding better sub EQ. Went from a marantz 1606 to a Denon 4500h


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I use 0 which at -15MV gives me a 6.6db boost. I then simply turn down the PB16 3db via remote leaving me with a 3.6bd boost which is good for my set up. I have been thinking of turning it of which would result in having to bump up the Sub by 5-6 db to compensate. Still trying to figure out if I would need to bump up the other speakers as well when turning it of and how much. If anyone has an idea would be good.
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post #5676 of 7069 Old 12-19-2018, 03:56 PM
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I use 0 which at -15MV gives me a 6.6db boost. I then simply turn down the PB16 3db via remote leaving me with a 3.6bd boost which is good for my set up. I have been thinking of turning it of which would result in having to bump up the Sub by 5-6 db to compensate. Still trying to figure out if I would need to bump up the other speakers as well when turning it of and how much. If anyone has an idea would be good.


I played with it the other night and settled on still leaving it off for discs and bumped the sub 3-4dB instead.


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post #5677 of 7069 Old 12-19-2018, 04:06 PM
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I also turn dynamic eq off and boost the sub instead. I don't like the way it boosts the surround channels which over power the center in my room when I'm not cranking the sound.
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post #5678 of 7069 Old 12-19-2018, 05:02 PM
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I played with it the other night and settled on still leaving it off for discs and bumped the sub 3-4dB instead.


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Currently I'm not using DEQ for stereo music with Sub boost 4db. How did you find the surrounds and center when turning DEQ off.
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post #5679 of 7069 Old 12-19-2018, 05:03 PM
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I also turn dynamic eq off and boost the sub instead. I don't like the way it boosts the surround channels which over power the center in my room when I'm not cranking the sound.
Ill have to give it try and see how my surrounds react.
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Originally Posted by gsantosoliver View Post
Gentlemen,



What happens with the bass when Audyssey sets the crossovers for LCR and S as small at 60hz and I set the LPF for LFE at 120 hz? Would I have bass coming from LCR and S AND sub at the same time? Is it recommended or should I set all to 80-110hz?



Thank you!

Gilson
The LPF for LFE is completely different than the crossover setting in your bass management.

The LFE channel is the .1 in the 5.1 setup, for example. It is only big bass authored specifically for that channel by the sound engineer. It can have frequencies up to 120hz, and is generally recommended to keep it at that. The sub itself will also have a LPF setting knob which is recommended to put at the max so it doesn't filter out any signal coming from either the .1 LFE channel or your bass management below crossover.

So the subwoofer accepts signals from bass management (bass directed from the 5 channels to the sub, set by your crossovers) + LFE channel.

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Originally Posted by bigzee3 View Post
Currently I'm not using DEQ for stereo music with Sub boost 4db. How did you find the surrounds and center when turning DEQ off.


I already didn't run it for discs so I was trying it turned on. I do still run it for my cable and streaming boxes at -10 offset. Also -10 with a 4-5dB sub boost for airplay and Spotify music.


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post #5682 of 7069 Old 12-20-2018, 04:03 AM
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The LPF for LFE is completely different than the crossover setting in your bass management.

The LFE channel is the .1 in the 5.1 setup, for example. It is only big bass authored specifically for that channel by the sound engineer. It can have frequencies up to 120hz, and is generally recommended to keep it at that. The sub itself will also have a LPF setting knob which is recommended to put at the max so it doesn't filter out any signal coming from either the .1 LFE channel or your bass management below crossover.

So the subwoofer accepts signals from bass management (bass directed from the 5 channels to the sub, set by your crossovers) + LFE channel.
Hi. Yes, I got that. So, in my case would I have bass coming out of the LCRS from 60Hz + bass from LCRS and the entire LFE coming out of the sub?
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post #5683 of 7069 Old 12-21-2018, 02:11 AM
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Hi. Yes, I got that. So, in my case would I have bass coming out of the LCRS from 60Hz + bass from LCRS and the entire LFE coming out of the sub?

Yes. Just to err on the side of redundancy, bass assigned to your front and surround speakers will come out of them above 60 Hz, but no LFE will come out of anything but the sub, which is how it should be. You will have the entire LFE (up to the point at which you set the LPF for LFE, usually 120 Hz) coming out of the subwoofer. Also coming out of the subwoofer, mixed in with the LFE will be bass below 60 Hz that would have come out of your LCRS if you didn't have a subwoofer. This will include bass from soundtrack music. Sound effects that don't qualify as LFE, because they are too high in pitch, may have been put on the LCRS such as most of the frequency range of breaking glass, wind chimes, non-political birds tweeting, and even a dog barking way off to the left.

The true, bass management, crossovers can, and probably should, be set individually for each class of speaker, in most AVRs. Select "Crossover Advanced," or some such. For instance, I'm looking at my screen right now, and I see that I have selected 80Hz for the L & R front (letting the sub do the heavy lifting below 80Hz). I picked 40 Hz for the center for an idiosyncratic reason, i.e., I have my sub turned pretty far up (done AFTER running Audyssey, which is necessary if it is to be boosted) and with an 80 Hz crossover, it pushes the bass end of voices through the highly boosted sub creating a high bass shelf in the dialogue that comes through the center, making throaty voiced women sound like men, and Sam Elliot sound like the Voice of Zeus. Audyssey told me that in my room and in its position my massive center (by itself) was good down to 40 Hz, so, to keep voices out of the sub, I set the center crossover at 40 Hz. It works fine. My surrounds have an F3 of about 50 Hz, so I set them for 80 Hz.

Many sources in our environment have a very wide frequency response, wider by far than I realized when I was as a fledgling audiophile. Their sound will come out of all your speakers (including subs) simultaneously, but with different parts of the frequency curve coming out of different speakers, with some overlap, at radically different SPLs. Here, for instance, is the kick drum:


[EDIT: Sorry, the graph won't print here. It is there in the draft copy, but disappears when I save. Suffice it to say that the kick drum, considered to be a "bass" instrument, produces frequencies up to 16K Hz, as loud as 110 dB, but very briefly -- a few milliseconds long.]
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post #5684 of 7069 Old 12-21-2018, 05:20 AM
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Yes. Just to err on the side of redundancy, bass assigned to your front and surround speakers will come out of them above 60 Hz, but no LFE will come out of anything but the sub, which is how it should be. You will have the entire LFE (up to the point at which you set the LPF for LFE, usually 120 Hz) coming out of the subwoofer. Also coming out of the subwoofer, mixed in with the LFE will be bass below 60 Hz that would have come out of your LCRS if you didn't have a subwoofer. This will include bass from soundtrack music. Sound effects that don't qualify as LFE, because they are too high in pitch, may have been put on the LCRS such as most of the frequency range of breaking glass, wind chimes, non-political birds tweeting, and even a dog barking way off to the left.

The true, bass management, crossovers can, and probably should, be set individually for each class of speaker, in most AVRs. Select "Crossover Advanced," or some such. For instance, I'm looking at my screen right now, and I see that I have selected 80Hz for the L & R front (letting the sub do the heavy lifting below 80Hz). I picked 40 Hz for the center for an idiosyncratic reason, i.e., I have my sub turned pretty far up (done AFTER running Audyssey, which is necessary if it is to be boosted) and with an 80 Hz crossover, it pushes the bass end of voices through the highly boosted sub creating a high bass shelf in the dialogue that comes through the center, making throaty voiced women sound like men, and Sam Elliot sound like the Voice of Zeus. Audyssey told me that in my room and in its position my massive center (by itself) was good down to 40 Hz, so, to keep voices out of the sub, I set the center crossover at 40 Hz. It works fine. My surrounds have an F3 of about 50 Hz, so I set them for 80 Hz.

Many sources in our environment have a very wide frequency response, wider by far than I realized when I was as a fledgling audiophile. Their sound will come out of all your speakers (including subs) simultaneously, but with different parts of the frequency curve coming out of different speakers, with some overlap, at radically different SPLs. Here, for instance, is the kick drum:


[EDIT: Sorry, the graph won't print here. It is there in the draft copy, but disappears when I save. Suffice it to say that the kick drum, considered to be a "bass" instrument, produces frequencies up to 16K Hz, as loud as 110 dB, but very briefly -- a few milliseconds long.]
Thank you for the detailed response.

Not sure if you noticed, but I said my speakers are all set as Small as 60hz. In your text above you said the sub, in addition to the LFE channel, will play the bass below 60Hz that would have come out from the LCRS. I read somewhere that, when the speakers are set to Small, the AVR (this case a Denon 6400) will send the bass from these speakers to the subwoofer. My question is: does it only send the bass below the crossover point (in my case, 60Hz) or the ENTIRE bass from the small speakers to the sub? If it is the entire bass, what is the actually crossover point that the AVR consideres as bass?

Thank you!
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post #5685 of 7069 Old 12-21-2018, 05:35 PM
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Thank you for the detailed response.

Not sure if you noticed, but I said my speakers are all set as Small as 60hz. In your text above you said the sub, in addition to the LFE channel, will play the bass below 60Hz that would have come out from the LCRS. I read somewhere that, when the speakers are set to Small, the AVR (this case a Denon 6400) will send the bass from these speakers to the subwoofer. My question is: does it only send the bass below the crossover point (in my case, 60Hz) or the ENTIRE bass from the small speakers to the sub? If it is the entire bass, what is the actually crossover point that the AVR consideres as bass?

Thank you!

  • If I understand your question correctly, at a bass management crossover of 60 Hz, SMALL, the AVR takes only the bass that would otherwise be sent to the main speakers and sends it to the subwoofer. At your 60 Hz crossover that certainly would NOT be the ENTIRE bass. O.K., it would be disappointing if it were that simple -- see below.
  • Actually, the crossovers are not brick walls; there is overlap. The sound sent to the main speakers rolls off gradually, typically at 12 dB per octave. So, with your 60 Hz crossover, the main speakers filtered by that crossover would still be playing some bass one octave lower at 30 Hz, but 12 dB lower in SPL (i.e., less loud). 12 dB is about 12 just noticeable differences (controversial) and -12 dB is what people perceive as slightly less than 1/2 as loud (also controversial). One octave lower yet, at 15 Hz the bass arriving at the main speakers would be at -24 dB. That is what your 60 Hz crossover for your main speakers does.
  • I'm just curious. Did you set your crossover at 60 Hz, rather than the more common 80 Hz for some particular reason? Some main speakers (like some with horn loaded bass) have cleaner bass attack, with fewer side bands, than most subs, but the difference between 60 Hz and 80 Hz is taken up by only a bit less than three white notes on the piano. I have to admit I tried 40 Hz, 60 Hz, 80 Hz, and landed on 80 Hz as sounding the best, for most movies & music. YMMV.
  • What is considered to be bass, subjectively, depends on what instrument is playing it, as well as a slew of different traditions. The lowest note on conventional pianos is 27.5 Hz, yet it contains many overtones that make it sound "higher" to some people than exactly the same 27.5 Hz note on, say, a tuba, or a pipe organ, or an audio oscillator (which, normally, is devoid of overtones). And, I'd bet a Baldwin has a different sounding 27.5 Hz than a Steinway. In my experience, people who start at the bottom of the keyboard and move up toward the top disagree on where bass "stops." And, there are different conventions. Bass may be thought of as below 200 Hz, below 500 Hz, etc. An equalizer review I saw, nominated 250 Hz and below as bass. The classic JBL theater speakers crossed over from bass to midrange/treble at 500 Hz. If you turn off the mid/treble horn lens on one of these monsters, what is left sounds a lot like bass, at least it did when I tried it when I was about 13. The Bozak Concert Grand crossed over from bass to midrange at about 400 Hz, and so did the older Klipschorns (they now x-over at 450 Hz). Bass impact is very important from about 50 to 200 Hz in classical music, and in many film scores.
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post #5686 of 7069 Old 12-21-2018, 06:46 PM
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  • If I understand your question correctly, at a bass management crossover of 60 Hz, SMALL, the AVR takes only the bass that would otherwise be sent to the main speakers and sends it to the subwoofer. At your 60 Hz crossover that certainly would NOT be the ENTIRE bass. O.K., it would be disappointing if it were that simple -- see below.
  • Actually, the crossovers are not brick walls; there is overlap. The sound sent to the main speakers rolls off gradually, typically at 12 dB per octave. So, with your 60 Hz crossover, the main speakers filtered by that crossover would still be playing some bass one octave lower at 30 Hz, but 12 dB lower in SPL (i.e., less loud). 12 dB is about 12 just noticeable differences (controversial) and -12 dB is what people perceive as slightly less than 1/2 as loud (also controversial). One octave lower yet, at 15 Hz the bass arriving at the main speakers would be at -24 dB. That is what your 60 Hz crossover for your main speakers does.
  • I'm just curious. Did you set your crossover at 60 Hz, rather than the more common 80 Hz for some particular reason? Some main speakers (like some with horn loaded bass) have cleaner bass attack, with fewer side bands, than most subs, but the difference between 60 Hz and 80 Hz is taken up by only a bit less than three white notes on the piano. I have to admit I tried 40 Hz, 60 Hz, 80 Hz, and landed on 80 Hz as sounding the best, for most movies & music. YMMV.
  • What is considered to be bass, subjectively, depends on what instrument is playing it, as well as a slew of different traditions. The lowest note on conventional pianos is 27.5 Hz, yet it contains many overtones that make it sound "higher" to some people than exactly the same 27.5 Hz note on, say, a tuba, or a pipe organ, or an audio oscillator (which, normally, is devoid of overtones). And, I'd bet a Baldwin has a different sounding 27.5 Hz than a Steinway. In my experience, people who start at the bottom of the keyboard and move up toward the top disagree on where bass "stops." And, there are different conventions. Bass may be thought of as below 200 Hz, below 500 Hz, etc. An equalizer review I saw, nominated 250 Hz and below as bass. The classic JBL theater speakers crossed over from bass to midrange/treble at 500 Hz. If you turn off the mid/treble horn lens on one of these monsters, what is left sounds a lot like bass, at least it did when I tried it when I was about 13. The Bozak Concert Grand crossed over from bass to midrange at about 400 Hz, and so did the older Klipschorns (they now x-over at 450 Hz). Bass impact is very important from about 50 to 200 Hz in classical music, and in many film scores.
Wow, thanks again for more this lesson! Now I understand that AVR will respect whatever crossover to decide what bass to send to the sub. To answer your questions, that 60hz is what the Audyssey set (or suggested) to my speakers when I ran it. It did put the LR as large but I changed it to small and did not touch the crossover. I doubt my speakers (Klipsch R-28F, Klipsch RP-450C, Klipsch RP-240S, Klipsch R-14S, 4x Klipsch R-2650-C and dub Sunfire HRS10) can play 60hz better than the sub, so it makes sense to cut them higher. So I will test them at 90 hz and let the sub handle the heavy lifting to see what happens.

Thank you for the help!
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post #5687 of 7069 Old 12-22-2018, 07:36 AM
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After running Audessey, adjusting levels does not effect the Audessey EQ, correct? I forgot to set my sub gain higher than it was before I ran Audessey and ran Audessey. I have the sub at -3 in the AVR, but want to adjust the gain on the sub itself. This won't mess anything up will it?
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I can answer a few of these. Manual setup is the right place to change settings. Audyssey section is just showing you what it found when it ran. It's ok to set your speakers to small and raise the xover from 40 to 80. What you don't want to do is go the other way because my understanding is if for instance audyssey decides 100hz is the proper crossover point for a channel it stops making corrections below that point or something like that. So if you set it to say 40hz it's uncorrected between 40-100 in that example. Yes I'd set to LFE only. The only reason to use LFE+Main is if you have any of your speakers set to full range instead of a crossover point.

Changing settings like this manually won't affect the audyssey corrections. What I've read is it "graphs out" and makes the corrections and crossover points etc. but the receiver then takes that info and actually uses it when outputting. Like, it doesn't actually know where audyssey stopped making corrections it just gets data that says what do do at each part of the spectrum and it has no idea and doesn't care that audyssey stopped correcting past a certain point, but if you change the crossover too low you'll be trying to play content that hasn't been corrected for room issues.
So I have changed LFE+Main to LFE as you suggested and in FAQ of this thread. I think this is doing the intended that not playing the low freq below 80Hz from the main Speakers and only though the sub. My speakers are all set to small.

When doing music 2ch playback if I change LFE+Main to LFE only I see my sub goes away in speaker configuration and the sound is played through L and R speakers. For x4400h there is a section to set 2 ch playback. So I am now forced to keep the LFE+Main for 2ch playback to get the sub involved.

This is getting me thinking if even in 5.1 setup same happens. If there is no LFE content how are the below 80hz going to go to sub? Are they added to the LFE? Is that just because speakers are set to small and that triggers to sends all the below crossover content to the sub? or you need the LFE+Main selected to do it?
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So I have changed LFE+Main to LFE as you suggested and in FAQ of this thread. I think this is doing the intended that not playing the low freq below 80Hz from the main Speakers and only though the sub. My speakers are all set to small.

When doing music 2ch playback if I change LFE+Main to LFE only I see my sub goes away in speaker configuration and the sound is played through L and R speakers. For x4400h there is a section to set 2 ch playback. So I am now forced to keep the LFE+Main for 2ch playback to get the sub involved.

This is getting me thinking if even in 5.1 setup same happens. If there is no LFE content how are the below 80hz going to go to sub? Are they added to the LFE? Is that just because speakers are set to small and that triggers to sends all the below crossover content to the sub? or you need the LFE+Main selected to do it?
Hi,

I think it would really help you to do a little reading. People can keep trying to explain crossovers, and the LPF of LFE relationship, in a piecemeal way. And, Gary has already done a very good and very thorough job of that, in my opinion. But, it might be helpful to read a detailed article that has examples, and repetitions for emphasis. Here is a direct link to the article:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...ences.html#III

There is bass in everything we listen to, although not everything we may listen to has very much low-bass. But, there is only an LFE channel (low-frequency effects channel) in 5.1 material. The LFE channel was specifically created in order to add more low-bass sound effects to movies. It is the .1 in 5.1 or 7.1. The LPF (low-pass filter) in your AVR controls the content of that .1 LFE channel.

The crossovers that you set for your speakers are entirely different from that, and they only affect the bass content played by your speakers. That content is completely separate from the LFE channel. So, if you set your speakers to Small with an 80Hz crossover, for instance, your AVR will redirect all of the <80Hz bass from the speakers to your subwoofers, while your speakers will continue to play everything above 80Hz.

The concept of bass-management in home theater, can be a little bit confusing, and it can take some time, for all of us, to allow the details to completely sink-in. Reading the section of the Guide that I linked for you should help, and it should also give you more insight into the use of LFE+Main.

Regards,
Mike
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Hi,

I think it would really help you to do a little reading. People can keep trying to explain crossovers, and the LPF of LFE relationship, in a piecemeal way. And, Gary has already done a very good and very thorough job of that, in my opinion. But, it might be helpful to read a detailed article that has examples, and repetitions for emphasis. Here is a direct link to the article:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...ences.html#III

There is bass in everything we listen to, although not everything we may listen to has very much low-bass. But, there is only an LFE channel (low-frequency effects channel) in 5.1 material. The LFE channel was specifically created in order to add more low-bass sound effects to movies. It is the .1 in 5.1 or 7.1. The LPF (low-pass filter) in your AVR controls the content of that .1 LFE channel.

The crossovers that you set for your speakers are entirely different from that, and they only affect the bass content played by your speakers. That content is completely separate from the LFE channel. So, if you set your speakers to Small with an 80Hz crossover, for instance, your AVR will redirect all of the <80Hz bass from the speakers to your subwoofers, while your speakers will continue to play everything above 80Hz.

The concept of bass-management in home theater, can be a little bit confusing, and it can take some time, for all of us, to allow the details to completely sink-in. Reading the section of the Guide that I linked for you should help, and it should also give you more insight into the use of LFE+Main.

Regards,
Mike
Thanks for the clarification, the link is an excellent read. Build on what I knew and cleared some misconception. Also introduced the idea of cascading crossovers etc. Interesting may even try when time permits.

My only question remains is if LFE only is selected for bass management under 2CH playback the sub does not show up in speaker configuration. This is on x4400h for music in 2CH mode playing in Direct or Pure mode. If you play in auto mode then the sub come up with only LFE selected. To force the sub to show up in in 2CH Direct or Pure, LFE+Main has to be selected. The L/R speakers are selected as small with crossover of 80Hz, subwoofer is also selected Yes. Am I missing something here or this is normal?
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Thanks for the clarification, the link is an excellent read. Build on what I knew and cleared some misconception. Also introduced the idea of cascading crossovers etc. Interesting may even try when time permits.

My only question remains is if LFE only is selected for bass management under 2CH playback the sub does not show up in speaker configuration. This is on x4400h for music in 2CH mode playing in Direct or Pure mode. If you play in auto mode then the sub come up with only LFE selected. To force the sub to show up in in 2CH Direct or Pure, LFE+Main has to be selected. The L/R speakers are selected as small with crossover of 80Hz, subwoofer is also selected Yes. Am I missing something here or this is normal?
You are very welcome! As far as I know, the use of Direct or Pure Direct turns off Audyssey's room correction and prevents the use of subwoofers. If you want to listen to two-channel music with a sub, just enable the Stereo setting.

Denon has always had some funky features. Marantz may do the same thing for all I know. I have never actually tried what you are describing. It sounds as if the use of LFE+Main enables you to use a subwoofer from the Direct or Pure Direct setting, alright. But, the use of LFE+Main may turn Audyssey back-on, or it may otherwise bypass the Direct/Pure Direct settings.

Personally, I would just use the Stereo setting if I were you. To reiterate something emphasized earlier, there is no LFE content in two-channel music. The only content containing an LFE channel has a .1 in the name (5.1 content, for instance). So, at best, using LFE+Main would be pointless for two-channel music. It may not do any harm, but I think it would be pointless compared to just using Stereo.

Regards,
Mike
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* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
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Audyssey thread Part II - Microphone Calibration with Height Speakers

When calibrating the height speakers through sweeps, do you now if Audyssey switch mic calibration from 90 degrees to 0 degree automatically?

MAKE AUDIO GREAT AGAIN | Dedicated Sonus Faber HT 7.2.4 | FRONTS: Sonus Faber Venere 2.0 CENTER: Sonus Faber Venere Centre FRONT WIDES: Sonus Faber Venere 1.5 SURROUNDS: Sonus Faber Venere 1.5 TF/TR - ATMOS-DTS:X: Sonus Faber Venere Wall (4) | RECEIVER: Marantz SR7010 AMPLIFICATION: Monolith 7x200 | SUBWOOFERS: Dual 18" Dayton RSS460 Custom Build | Behringer iNuke 6000DSP | Velodyne SMS-1 DISPLAY: JVC D-ILA RS-46 w/ 128" 16:9 1.4 TREATMENT: Custom Bass Traps and Acoustic Panels (11)

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post #5693 of 7069 Old 12-24-2018, 09:02 AM
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When calibrating the height speakers through sweeps, do you now if Audyssey switch mic calibration from 90 degrees to 0 degree automatically?
Hi,

I am certain that it does not. The microphone calibration is fixed, and the mic is designed to be operated in the upright position. As far as I know, though, that doesn't represent a problem with height or ceiling speakers, since the microphone is omnidirectional anyway. Based on what I have read on the Atmos thread, most people have no problem at all with Audyssey properly detecting, calibrating, and EQing their height or ceiling speakers.

Regards,
Mike
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post #5695 of 7069 Old 12-24-2018, 02:55 PM
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Hello,

I have a 3.1 setup with a x3500h.

I ran audessey and audessey chose to make my Front Left and Right "large" while keeping the center Small.

My question is , If I go into the manual config to change the speakers to small, will Audessey now be turned off? Or is there a way to keep the audessey profile while changing the front LR to small.

Thanks!

-Bee
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Hello,

I have a 3.1 setup with a x3500h.

I ran audessey and audessey chose to make my Front Left and Right "large" while keeping the center Small.

My question is , If I go into the manual config to change the speakers to small, will Audessey now be turned off? Or is there a way to keep the audessey profile while changing the front LR to small.

Thanks!

-Bee

Hi Bee,



Feel free to change Front Left and Right from Large to Small. Audyssey in this case won't be turned off. What you will need to do is to set Front Left and Right crossover to 80 Hz and call it a day!
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post #5697 of 7069 Old 12-26-2018, 03:09 AM
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What you will need to do is to set Front Left and Right crossover to 80 Hz and call it a day!
Why is everyone repeating the nonsense, that decent speakers should be run highpassed at 80 Hz? The very important pressure range is removed from the speakers and directed to the sub. Sounds completely different. For movie material that is not a big problem, because voice is the main element, but listening to music on highpassed at 80 Hz fronts with a sub should never be recommended, if the speakers have a solid bass response. And if someone is having a 3.1 setup, to recommend it is even worse.
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post #5698 of 7069 Old 12-26-2018, 06:27 AM
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Why is everyone repeating the nonsense, that decent speakers should be run highpassed at 80 Hz? The very important pressure range is removed from the speakers and directed to the sub. Sounds completely different. For movie material that is not a big problem, because voice is the main element, but listening to music on highpassed at 80 Hz fronts with a sub should never be recommended, if the speakers have a solid bass response. And if someone is having a 3.1 setup, to recommend it is even worse.
That's YOUR opinion, and I don't share it. I like the sound of my Rythmik subwoofers, and I cross my towers at 80 Hz because the subwoofers are both more capable and sound better than my towers below 80 Hz. My critical listening is almost entirely music.

Please don't present an opinion as fact.
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post #5699 of 7069 Old 12-26-2018, 06:44 AM
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That's YOUR opinion, and I don't share it. I like the sound of my Rythmik subwoofers, and I cross my towers at 80 Hz because the subwoofers are both more capable and sound better than my towers below 80 Hz. My critical listening is almost entirely music.

Please don't present an opinion as fact.

I don't share that opinion either.


Its time to reread Chris K's excellent blog on "Small vs. Large". Lot of facts are shared here!


Qte


Small vs. Large

Do you have a subwoofer in your system? Great. Then your speakers are small. Before you get all upset, read on. This is one of those audio myths whose time has come to be busted. To understand why, we need to talk about Bass Management.


In the early days of home theater it was thought that in order to reproduce the full movie surround experience at home it was necessary to place 5 large loudspeakers in the room. The reason for the size was the woofers. To play at theatrical reference levels and reproduce the deepest bass available in the content requires each speaker to have 12” or larger woofers. Let’s just say that this theory didn’t get very far in the real world.


A better and more practical approach came after studying human perception. The mechanisms that we use to determine the direction of arrival of sound depend on the frequency. At high frequencies the wavelength of sound is small and so sound coming from the side is shadowed by our head. That creates a level difference between the sound reaching the ear closest to the source and the ear on the other side. Our brain analyzes these level differences and produces an estimate of where the sound is coming from. But at lower frequencies, the wavelength of sound gets longer and our head is not large enough to produce a level difference at the two ears. Instead, we analyze the difference in time of arrival of sound at the two ears. Sound arrives first at the closest ear and we use that to determine the direction. But even that ability fails us below about 80 Hz. The wavelengths get very large and it was found in listening tests that 80 Hz is the frequency below which most people can not localize the direction of sound.


Taking advantage of this apparent “deficiency” in our hearing was what made home theater practical for millions of homes. Five satellite speakers of reasonable size could now be used because they no longer required large woofers. A subwoofer (or two) can reproduce the lower octaves and it can be placed out of sight since its content is not directional.


But there is also a practical advantage: directing the bass to a dedicated subwoofer channel with its own amplifier greatly improves the headroom in the main channels. The idea behind this was proposed in a Society of Motion Picture Engineers (SMPTE) meeting in 1987. The participants could not agree on the minimum number of channels required for surround sound on film. Various numbers were being shouted out until a voice was heard from the back: “We need 5.1”. Everyone’s head turned around to look at Tom Holman. He proceeded to explain what he meant: Take the low frequency content from all 5 channels and redirect it away from the satellite speakers to the subwoofer. If we do the math, then the content below 80 Hz is 0.004 of the audible 20,000 Hz bandwidth. But 5.004 didn’t sound as catchy so Tom rounded up to 5.1. By the way, don’t make the amateur mistake of calling it 5 dot 1. It is a decimal: 5 point 1.


Fast forward to the early 90s when the first DSP powered home theater receivers started to appear. Along with progress came complexity. Some industry forces believed that Bass Management should be an option that could be turned on and off by the consumer. That’s not necessarily a bad idea, but to make an informed decision requires much more knowledge about the system than what was available to the typical consumer. So, the Large and Small rule of thumb was established. The idea was to look at the size of your speakers and decide whether their woofers were “large enough” to reproduce the lowest octaves at the required levels. It was a noble thought, but looking at it 15 years later I believe that it has led to nothing but massive confusion. The poor consumer was led to believe that Large is somehow a good thing and was then left wondering why there was nothing coming out of their subwoofer.


Redirecting the bass to the subwoofer relieves the receiver amplifiers from having to work on reproducing the low frequencies and this greatly improves the headroom. If you happen to be using Audyssey MultEQ for room correction, you will achieve much better low frequency performance because the MultEQ subwoofer filters have 8x higher resolution than the filters in the other channels.


Here is a better rule: All speakers are Small. In today’s complicated AVR lingo that just means: If you have a subwoofer you should always turn bass management on. Always. Even if your receiver clings to the past and automatically sets your speakers to Large.





Unqte
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post #5700 of 7069 Old 12-26-2018, 07:23 AM
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Opinion? It's the reality in music and postpro production.

Good sound is always the result of engineering. And engineering always starts with measuring. Consumer industry and mainstream will never tell customers about that: improvements in room acoustics are worth roughly ten (10!) times the amount spent on equipment like speakers and receivers. For example: only $500 in room treatment is worth more than spending $5000 (fivethousand) on equipment.
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