"Official" Audyssey thread Part II - Page 218 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6511 of 7054 Old 05-19-2019, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by pbarach View Post
I know you're right about this.

+1. Garry is right!
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post #6512 of 7054 Old 05-19-2019, 05:38 AM
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^^^

There is something else about the way that crossovers are set in AVR's and AVP's, employing Audyssey or other automated calibration systems, that I think is worth pointing-out. The initial setting of Large or Small with a crossover (which as Gary said is dependent on the AVR's internal programming) does not constitute a recommendation by either Audyssey or by the AVR. It is is simply an observation, which informs users, of where the particular speakers in question are rolling-off, in that particular placement, in that particular room.

Unfortunately, that is never made clear in user manuals or in most Audyssey explanations. Once the calibration is complete, and the preliminary crossovers have been set, well-informed users can and should experiment with the crossovers to discover the preferred settings for that listener, or for that listening medium (movies versus music, for instance). That experimentation can be facilitated by measurements, or it can rely entirely on listening to different content with different settings.

David did a very good job of explaining some of the reasons why combination music/movie systems can often require a degree of compromise, especially where speaker placement is concerned. As a general rule, most listeners will be much better off setting speakers to Small with no less than a 60Hz crossover. Typically it is a good idea to set crossovers about one-half to one octave above the measured F3 point of a speaker, in order to allow for a seamless transition between speaker and subwoofer. (This whole issue of setting crossovers is explored in detail in Section III of the Guide, linked below.)

Although the way that crossovers are set, with Large/Small settings has always created a good deal of confusion, I am personally glad that users still have the Large option. There are music listening systems that actually do have highly bass-capable speakers, located where they should be for optimum listening performance. And, those systems may also be able to benefit from partial or full-range room correction. I have such a system, and my settings for music are entirely different from my settings for movies.

In my opinion, once we understand how our audio systems operate, and we understand the mechanisms employed by systems such as Audyssey, our best path to our personal listening satisfaction lies in informed experimentation. We just need to try different settings and different combinations of settings to discover what we like. And, we shouldn't be too surprised if we find that changing sources, or changing entire listening venues (two-channel music versus 5.1 movies) necessitates minor, or substantial, changes in settings.

Nearly all of what we do with our settings: Audyssey on or off; L/R Bypass; full-range correction versus bandwidth-limited correction; Reference versus Flat; Large versus Small with crossovers; LFE+Main; DEQ on, or off, or on with an RLO engaged; or other settings that I have left out, may be investigated and implemented entirely on a YMMV basis.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #6513 of 7054 Old 05-19-2019, 07:04 AM
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Err, whether the receiver sets the speakers to large when you run Audyssey, or if Audyssey sets speakers to large, the end result is exactly the same, and any distinction is strictly academic.

Anyway, if your subwoofer could be called 'floppy and burpy' I think it's time for an upgrade
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post #6514 of 7054 Old 05-19-2019, 08:06 AM
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This discussion of music Vs movie settings is an interesting one for me as it is something I have struggled with. Like many, my setup serves both purposes and I want it to work well for both. My LR are Klipsch RP280F which are capable towers that will go low enough for the types of music I listen to. For subs I have a pair of HSU VTF-3 Mk5s. When playing music in 2 ch mode with Aud ref or flat calibration, it sounds lacking in mid bass. Particularly, kick drums dont have the "kick" they should. When I use direct or L/R bypass, the kick is back. I ran a set of REW sweeps to see what that looks like.


Red = Direct. This is LR with no subs, no aud filtering
Green = Aud Flat LR and subs
Blue = Add 5 dB od SW boost
Gold = LR Bypass with the 5 dB Boost.

The direct sweep has significantly better bass than the Aud Flat sweep in the area that matters. The music I listen to doesnt benefit from the below 40Hz gain that the subs provide.
The closest to the direct mode is L/R bypass, but even that is not as strong above the 80Hz Xover.

Here is a 20K sweep. Its interesting that the Aud trace boosts the high freq up from the direct trace


Side note/question: Could I squash that 2.5K bump with the multiEq Editor?
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post #6515 of 7054 Old 05-19-2019, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
Err, whether the receiver sets the speakers to large when you run Audyssey, or if Audyssey sets speakers to large, the end result is exactly the same, and any distinction is strictly academic.

Anyway, if your subwoofer could be called 'floppy and burpy' I think it's time for an upgrade

To be fair, the distinction used to be a little less academic when Audyssey was being employed by more AVR makers. Denon/Marantz probably now employ very similar algorithms for setting crossovers. But, Onkyo used a slightly different one as I recall when it was licensing the Audyssey software, and I'm not sure about NAD. The Large/Small setting is pretty universally applied based on a <40Hz F3, by all of the systems of automated calibration, as far as I know. But, where the different makers choose to round-up or to round-down may vary quite a bit.

For instance, if a speaker is down by 3db at 40Hz is it Large or is it Small? Is the dividing line 39Hz or 38Hz, or 35Hz? I think that the 60Hz setting is especially problematical. Are AVR's setting a 40Hz crossover for an F3 point of anything under 60Hz, or is just for F3 points below about 55Hz? The 40Hz crossover might cover all F3 points from about 35Hz to 60Hz, depending on how the particular company chooses to implement the crossovers. There is quite a bit of difference in those frequencies.

If Audyssey were controlling the crossover, instead of simply reporting the F3 point to the AVR, which then uses its own internal programming to set the crossover, it would have been much easier to achieve more standardized and predictable crossovers. But, that's not the way that AVR makers wanted to implement those settings. I think you are right that the distinction is more academic today than it used to be, but many of the long-time Audyssey users remember the distinction and routinely apply it in discussions such as these.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #6516 of 7054 Old 05-19-2019, 08:16 AM
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Well, I spent a few hours yesterday to experiment and tried it all : Large + Fullband (LFE only, in bass management), Small + 40Hz, Small + 60Hz, Midrange Compensation ON and OFF. First, I don't know about the higher end receivers, but the Marantz SR5012 has this behavior, that as soon as my front speakers are not set to "Large", the sub will always play, even in stereo mode. That brings me back to the old dilemma, regarding what used to annoy me in that case : imprecise bass, a bit too bloated for my taste. I want something a bit dryer ; punchier. The Defiance V12 has a "Music" mode for such purpose, but still. Perhaps I would have been better off with the V10, that is apparently more precise. However, once I played with all settings, I must admit that with a properly set up subwoofer, music was way more fun to listen too. I ended up -- might change it after a while, but I'll see -- like this :
  • Small, with a 40Hz crossover
  • Midrange Compensation : OFF
  • MultEQ XT : L/R Bypass
  • Dynamic EQ : ON
  • Reference Level Offset: 10db
  • Dynamic volume: OFF

I won't go over my Defiance's settings, but suffice it to say, that I kept the "Deep Bass" compensation to a minimum, while being also modest on the volume to avoid the fronts being overpowered by the sub. After all, it's them I want to enjoy, when playing music.

The only thing I haven't re-tried since buying the new sub, is LFE + Main, in the bass management setting, combined with fullband fronts. I haven't been impressed by that combination, before... As for @ratbuddy 's suggestion for the high end roll-off, I would sure like to know how you guys manage to edit a curve with precision, on such a small screen as a mobile phone's. It's surely a bit easier on an iPad...

BTW... excuse my ignorence, but what is the F3 point?

Panasonic EZ950 ; Marantz SR5012 (5.1.2) ; Marantz MM7025 ; Oppo UDP-203 ; AppleTV 4K ; NAD C542 ; Monitor Audio Bronze 6 ; Mission M70 ; Paradigm Defiance V12

Last edited by DigitalSelf; 05-19-2019 at 08:21 AM.
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post #6517 of 7054 Old 05-19-2019, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by DigitalSelf View Post
Well, I spent a few hours yesterday to experiment and tried it all : Large + Fullband (LFE only, in bass management), Small + 40Hz, Small + 60Hz, Midrange Compensation ON and OFF. First, I don't know about the higher end receivers, but the Marantz SR5012 has this behavior, that as soon as my front speakers are not set to "Large", the sub will always play, even in stereo mode. That brings me back to the old dilemma, regarding what used to annoy me in that case : imprecise bass, a bit too bloated for my taste. I want something a bit dryer ; punchier. The Defiance V12 has a "Music" mode for such purpose, but still. Perhaps I would have been better off with the V10, that is apparently more precise. However, once I played with all settings, I must admit that with a properly set up subwoofer, music was way more fun to listen too. I ended up -- might change it after a while, but I'll see -- like this :
  • Small, with a 40Hz crossover
  • Midrange Compensation : OFF
  • MultEQ XT : L/R Bypass
  • Dynamic EQ : ON
  • Reference Level Offset: 10db
  • Dynamic volume: OFF

I won't go over my Defiance's settings, but suffice it to say, that I kept the "Deep Bass" compensation to a minimum, while being also modest on the volume to avoid the fronts being overpowered by the sub. After all, it's them I want to enjoy, when playing music.

The only thing I haven't re-tried since buying the new sub, is LFE + Main, in the bass management setting, combined with fullband fronts. I haven't been impressed by that combination, before... As for @ratbuddy 's suggestion for the high end roll-off, I would sure like to know how you guys manage to edit a curve with precision, on such a small screen as a mobile phone's. It's surely a bit easier on an iPad...

BTW... excuse my ignorence, but what is the F3 point?
If you dont want subs to be used try "Direct" mode. Subs are not used even when LR are small. Hit the pure button to get to it
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post #6518 of 7054 Old 05-19-2019, 08:45 AM
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If you dont want subs to be used try "Direct" mode. Subs are not used even when LR are small. Hit the pure button to get to it
Thanks. I tried it but found it to be a bit too lifeless. I want to benefit from Audyssey, provided I can tame it.

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post #6519 of 7054 Old 05-19-2019, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by DigitalSelf View Post
Thanks. I tried it but found it to be a bit too lifeless. I want to benefit from Audyssey, provided I can tame it.
Interesting as I have the exact opposite. Audyssey sucks the life out of my speakers and direct puts it back. See my post a few back from yours. Obviously the model of speakers and environment will have a big impact on this.
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post #6520 of 7054 Old 05-19-2019, 12:55 PM
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Side note/question: Could I squash that 2.5K bump with the multiEq Editor?
I don't know, it's pretty sharp. It may be some room/speaker resonance/reflection that can't be EQ'd out, which is why Audyssey doesn't try to remove it or it could simply be too sharp.




What you CAN do with the App, is fix your bass problems. This is one of the areas where the App gives a real gain in the capability of Audyssey.


So, your mains have good bass and are getting a nice amount of room gain at the bottom end. They sound better than the subs in the lower-midbass region for music. The problem with just running Audyssey reference is that it will neuter the bass of the mains, removing all the room gain, making them "flat" which generally doesn't sound good. Most compensate for this by bumping up the Sub level a few db...but as you have noted, it's just not the same.


With the App, you can correct your mains to a curve that will maintain their bass at the bottom end (maybe smooth it out a little) so they'll sound much better when set to "Large" and they'll integrate with the sub at various crossover settings better when both are corrected to the same curve to begin with.


Try this (easiest to just type them into Ratbuddy):


Front L&R Control Points:


20hz 6db
55 6
150 0




Sub Control Points:


20 6
55 6
150 0


That'll give you a sub curve like this:






Now, Audyssey will correct your sub to that curve, but it won't just boost the low end 6db--it'll lower the entire curve. To put the curve where it should be to match the mains, you need to boost sub level from the level Audyssey sets 6db (as shown below):






With those settings, both will be corrected to the same curve. Your mains set to large should sound as good or better than they do in Direct mode in the bass region. And when you add the sub, you can try crossover settings anywhere from 40 to 100+ hz without changing the overall response curve, you'll simply be trading sub power for main speaker power at certain frequencies--but they'll integrate properly since they're set to the same level at whatever frequency you select (something that does NOT happen when both are corrected flat and the sub is boosted in level, as overlap will increase/decrease depending upon the frequency you choose).


Anyway, give that a try and I think you'll be pleased.
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Last edited by Jon AA; 05-19-2019 at 01:16 PM.
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post #6521 of 7054 Old 05-19-2019, 01:41 PM
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This is awesome! Thanks for the time putting this info together. Yes, the main/sub integration has been a struggle. Its fine (great) for movies but cant get it just right for music. One thing is I dont want to set my mains to large. Any settings I use has to be remembered per input and not a manual cgange. Im not going to change mains large/small every time I watch a movie or listen to music. Im going to plug those settings in and see what it looks like. Will post back in a few.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon AA View Post
I don't know, it's pretty sharp. It may be some room/speaker resonance/reflection that can't be EQ'd out, which is why Audyssey doesn't try to remove it or it could simply be too sharp.




What you CAN do with the App, is fix your bass problems. This is one of the areas where the App gives a real gain in the capability of Audyssey.


So, your mains have good bass and are getting a nice amount of room gain at the bottom end. They sound better than the subs in the lower-midbass region for music. The problem with just running Audyssey reference is that it will neuter the bass of the mains, removing all the room gain, making them "flat" which generally doesn't sound good. Most compensate for this by bumping up the Sub level a few db...but as you have noted, it's just not the same.


With the App, you can correct your mains to a curve that will maintain their bass at the bottom end (maybe smooth it out a little) so they'll sound much better when set to "Large" and they'll integrate with the sub at various crossover settings better when both are corrected to the same curve to begin with.


Try this (easiest to just type them into Ratbuddy):


Front L&R Control Points:


20hz 6db
55 6
150 0




Sub Control Points:


20 6
55 6
150 0


That'll give you a sub curve like this:






Now, Audyssey will correct your sub to that curve, but it won't just boost the low end 6db--it'll lower the entire curve. To put the curve where it should be to match the mains, you need to boost sub level from the level Audyssey sets 6db (as shown below):






With those settings, both will be corrected to the same curve. Your mains set to large should sound as good or better than they do in Direct mode in the bass region. And when you add the sub, you can try crossover settings anywhere from 40 to 100+ hz without changing the overall response curve, you'll simply be trading sub power for main speaker power at certain frequencies--but they'll integrate properly since they're set to the same level at whatever frequency you select (something that does NOT happen when both are corrected flat and the sub is boosted in level, as overlap will increase/decrease depending upon the frequency you choose).


Anyway, give that a try and I think you'll be pleased.
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post #6522 of 7054 Old 05-19-2019, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon AA View Post


Try this (easiest to just type them into Ratbuddy):


Front L&R Control Points:


20hz 6db
55 6
150 0




Sub Control Points:


20 6
55 6
150 0


That'll give you a sub curve like this:

One more thing before I do this. Im new to the Ratbuddy editor but see what its doing. In Ratbuddy, I can edit the curve for L & R but the multieq app is just front. Same with the SW. I can edit both in the app but just one in multieq. I assume I just set them the same? Is there the possibility on individual speaker editing?
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post #6523 of 7054 Old 05-19-2019, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by sjm817 View Post
If your music source is different than what you use for movies, you can do this with channel level adjust. Have your SW level set for what you like for movies. While on the music input, hit the option button and go to channel level adjust and turn down the subs. You can also adjust tone (as long as DEQ is off). The settings are unique and are remembered per input.
Thanks for getting me to look at the “channel level adjust” setting on my Denon X3500H AVR. Your chart seems to prove adding bass per audio source input is the same as the global trim adjustment, with the benefit of doing so only on the source you set it for, and respecting the original trim setting, by adding or subtracting to it.

MORE INFO AND CHART IN THIS THREAD/POST:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post58069542

HDTV: Panasonic P55VT50 Plasma
AVR: Denon X3500H
SPEAKERS: Ohm (mains), Chane 2.4 (center), Rythmik F12G (sub), DefTech ProMonitor 80 (sats)
MEDIA PLAYER: Oppo BD83
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post #6524 of 7054 Old 05-19-2019, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by sjm817 View Post
One more thing before I do this. Im new to the Ratbuddy editor but see what its doing. In Ratbuddy, I can edit the curve for L & R but the multieq app is just front. Same with the SW. I can edit both in the app but just one in multieq. I assume I just set them the same? Is there the possibility on individual speaker editing?
I think you could, but I've never tried it. I just put them both the same. I actually do all speakers the same once I figure out what curve sounds good on the mains. I don't think there are many situations where you'd want to do it differently with your mains. There may be times you'd want to do something different with multiple subs, especially if they're not the same and have different rolloff points, but I haven't tried that either. Those might be interesting things to experiment with in the future after you get your main issue fixed to your liking (I wouldn't worry about them right now).
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post #6525 of 7054 Old 05-19-2019, 03:11 PM
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I think you could, but I've never tried it. I just put them both the same. I actually do all speakers the same once I figure out what curve sounds good on the mains. I don't think there are many situations where you'd want to do it differently with your mains. There may be times you'd want to do something different with multiple subs, especially if they're not the same and have different rolloff points, but I haven't tried that either. Those might be interesting things to experiment with in the future after you get your main issue fixed to your liking (I wouldn't worry about them right now).
Ok here are initial results with the new curves. Just 2 sweeps. Blue is direct, Red is modified ref curves. 80Hz Xover, no SW boost. Is this what you were expecting? I did a quick listen but not enough yet to say how the sound is.




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post #6526 of 7054 Old 05-19-2019, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by DigitalSelf View Post
Well, I spent a few hours yesterday to experiment and tried it all : Large + Fullband (LFE only, in bass management), Small + 40Hz, Small + 60Hz, Midrange Compensation ON and OFF. First, I don't know about the higher end receivers, but the Marantz SR5012 has this behavior, that as soon as my front speakers are not set to "Large", the sub will always play, even in stereo mode. That brings me back to the old dilemma, regarding what used to annoy me in that case : imprecise bass, a bit too bloated for my taste. I want something a bit dryer ; punchier. The Defiance V12 has a "Music" mode for such purpose, but still. Perhaps I would have been better off with the V10, that is apparently more precise. However, once I played with all settings, I must admit that with a properly set up subwoofer, music was way more fun to listen too. I ended up -- might change it after a while, but I'll see -- like this :
  • Small, with a 40Hz crossover
  • Midrange Compensation : OFF
  • MultEQ XT : L/R Bypass
  • Dynamic EQ : ON
  • Reference Level Offset: 10db
  • Dynamic volume: OFF

I won't go over my Defiance's settings, but suffice it to say, that I kept the "Deep Bass" compensation to a minimum, while being also modest on the volume to avoid the fronts being overpowered by the sub. After all, it's them I want to enjoy, when playing music.

The only thing I haven't re-tried since buying the new sub, is LFE + Main, in the bass management setting, combined with fullband fronts. I haven't been impressed by that combination, before... As for @ratbuddy 's suggestion for the high end roll-off, I would sure like to know how you guys manage to edit a curve with precision, on such a small screen as a mobile phone's. It's surely a bit easier on an iPad...

BTW... excuse my ignorence, but what is the F3 point?
If you are using L/R Bypass, then there is no Audyssey correction being done to the front left and right at all.... Your MRC settings one way or the other don't matter on the left and right with that setting.
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post #6527 of 7054 Old 05-19-2019, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
To be fair, the distinction used to be a little less academic when Audyssey was being employed by more AVR makers. Denon/Marantz probably now employ very similar algorithms for setting crossovers. But, Onkyo used a slightly different one as I recall when it was licensing the Audyssey software, and I'm not sure about NAD. The Large/Small setting is pretty universally applied based on a <40Hz F3, by all of the systems of automated calibration, as far as I know. But, where the different makers choose to round-up or to round-down may vary quite a bit.

For instance, if a speaker is down by 3db at 40Hz is it Large or is it Small? Is the dividing line 39Hz or 38Hz, or 35Hz? I think that the 60Hz setting is especially problematical. Are AVR's setting a 40Hz crossover for an F3 point of anything under 60Hz, or is just for F3 points below about 55Hz? The 40Hz crossover might cover all F3 points from about 35Hz to 60Hz, depending on how the particular company chooses to implement the crossovers. There is quite a bit of difference in those frequencies.

If Audyssey were controlling the crossover, instead of simply reporting the F3 point to the AVR, which then uses its own internal programming to set the crossover, it would have been much easier to achieve more standardized and predictable crossovers. But, that's not the way that AVR makers wanted to implement those settings. I think you are right that the distinction is more academic today than it used to be, but many of the long-time Audyssey users remember the distinction and routinely apply it in discussions such as these.

Regards,
Mike

... and at least one AVR manufacturer admitted to Chris K. that they employed the "Large" setting so that consumers would not be upset that their expensive front speakers, with deep bass capability, were not being used in the deep bass.



IMO, though, clean deep bass capability may be helpful in front speakers, even when they are set for "small." If the crossover is 80 Hz, enough bass may be coming through the fronts at, say, 50 Hz to introduce bass distortion from the front speakers, if they are not very deep bass capable.


ratbuddy:


As to 'burpy" subs, I like tight bass. I understand that some large, horn loaded subs are incredibly clean, clear and tight, with the cone excursion not needing to be great, thanks to the horn loading. Most of these can be fitted into a corner, or against a wall, and are often floor to ceiling. They are sometimes DIY copies of commercial designs. Someday, when I have the energy, I may build one. Like an alcoholic staying away from bars, I deliberately haven't been to an audio store since about 2014, but all the non-horn subs I listened to then (ported, sealed, or with a passive radiator), sounded at least subtly loose, floppy and burpy, especially with very low timpani (which I used to play), or during movie LFE. When I had a "music only" system I was able to get rid of the flop/burp by restricting the sub to < 40 Hz, and letting my mains handle higher bass. I'm O.K. with my current 80 Hz crossover, but someday ...



The following link is to a folded horn subwoofer that can stand in a corner. The guy who wrote the text is not an expert, but the pictures show the basic idea better than others I could quickly find on the Internet. It goes to 17 Hz, but range is not the point -- low distortion, low excursion, and tight, but deep, bass is. I haven't heard this particular one.

http://industriumvita.com/folded-tap...uned-for-17hz/



Here's what one guy did, a bit extreme, but I'll bet it is clean:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Horn...Kd0gj-4HWNb_M:
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Ok here are initial results with the new curves. Just 2 sweeps. Blue is direct, Red is modified ref curves. 80Hz Xover, no SW boost. Is this what you were expecting?
No, but you're getting close. The main thing is you need to boost the sub level 6 db when you use that target curve (even when crossing over at 80 hz) because Audyssey isn't quite smart enough to figure out what you're doing. If you do that the red curve and the blue curve should match more closely.


A couple other details: I think I misread your initial Direct curve (which you liked the sound of for music). To match it better, you might try changing the control point where you bring it back down to 0 from 150 to 180 or so in all curves. The nice thing about the App/Ratbuddy is you can make such changes, save it under a different file name and try numerous different curves pretty quickly and easily.


Also, if your main speakers sound good in the bass region, don't be afraid to try lower crossover points (at least for music) (40 might be marginal for those speakers, but 60 should work pretty well). Once you get the curves to match you can try different crossover points without changing the shape of the overall curve to see which you like best--it might actually be hard to tell the difference when everything is matched up.
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That makes sense and and have been trying some things. Yes, I like the sound of my mains for music. Bass is nice and tight and goes low enough. If I were only using them for music I would not have subwoofers at all. I was getting blurry eyed with all the REW testing and had to give that a break! At this point, your curve tweaks with a 40Hz Xover sound pretty darn good. 60Hz was still a bit light in the bass. Depending on content, "Direct" was actually a bit bass heavy. Down a notch or two is good.
I will try 180 control point next.

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No, but you're getting close. The main thing is you need to boost the sub level 6 db when you use that target curve (even when crossing over at 80 hz) because Audyssey isn't quite smart enough to figure out what you're doing. If you do that the red curve and the blue curve should match more closely.


A couple other details: I think I misread your initial Direct curve (which you liked the sound of for music). To match it better, you might try changing the control point where you bring it back down to 0 from 150 to 180 or so in all curves. The nice thing about the App/Ratbuddy is you can make such changes, save it under a different file name and try numerous different curves pretty quickly and easily.


Also, if your main speakers sound good in the bass region, don't be afraid to try lower crossover points (at least for music) (40 might be marginal for those speakers, but 60 should work pretty well). Once you get the curves to match you can try different crossover points without changing the shape of the overall curve to see which you like best--it might actually be hard to tell the difference when everything is matched up.

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With the 40Hz Xover, am I really giving up anything for movies? Everything I watch has an LFE track so it doesnt seem like I would miss anything really.

Right you are. If you have the regular (bass management) crossover at 40 Hz, and the Low Pass Filter for LFE at 120 Hz, you should miss nothing, providing your front speakers are good to 40 Hz (it sounds like they are). Very little orchestral music has fundamentals below 40 Hz (the best theater systems, like Cinerama with Altec Lansing, and 70 mm Todd-AO with James B. Lansing, used to start their serious roll-off at 40 Hz) and if there is lower music on some soundtracks, it will go to the sub, anyway, so, no loss. As to the LPF for LFE, some people (myself included) think the special effects sound is clearer with the LPF set at 80 Hz, rather than the prescribed 120. Roger Dressler (formerly of Dolby Labs) and Mark Seaton (founder Seaton Sound) agree. The sound above 80 Hz from the LFE track will still come through (up to 120) but will be attenuated. This cuts down on the bloated boominess that sometimes obscures deeper sound effects, as well as deep bass in music.


So, IMO, it is likely that one can get the tightest, clearest bass for both the music and effects in movies by:

  1. Setting the crossover for either 40 Hz (if you want your main front speakers to strut their stuff, and they will go down that far, cleanly) or 80 Hz. Note that with many AVRs the crossover can be set individually for the center (often inferior to the LF & RF), the surrounds (often small compared to others), and the "mains" (LF & RF).
  2. Setting the LPF for 80 Hz.
  3. If you can, and have the room, using a good folded horn loaded, probably tapped, subwoofer. Caution, the smaller ones don't go down very far. Their forte is clarity and low distortion, not wide range -- but the big ones tend to do well.
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If you are using L/R Bypass, then there is no Audyssey correction being done to the front left and right at all.... Your MRC settings one way or the other don't matter on the left and right with that setting.
I get it. However, it sounded different to me. Strange. Also, how is it that there's an audible difference between "L/R Bypass" and "Flat", when in both cases, I'm using only the fronts and in theory, nothing is applied to them in bypass mode? Shouldn't it sound the same?

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One more thing before I do this. Im new to the Ratbuddy editor but see what its doing. In Ratbuddy, I can edit the curve for L & R but the multieq app is just front. Same with the SW. I can edit both in the app but just one in multieq. I assume I just set them the same? Is there the possibility on individual speaker editing?
I just found the editor you were referring to. Really nice! I was wondering how you guys manage to do some precise editing on such small screens! I'll give it a try for sure. Now, onto some curve editing crash course reading...

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No, but you're getting close. The main thing is you need to boost the sub level 6 db when you use that target curve (even when crossing over at 80 hz) because Audyssey isn't quite smart enough to figure out what you're doing. If you do that the red curve and the blue curve should match more closely.


A couple other details: I think I misread your initial Direct curve (which you liked the sound of for music). To match it better, you might try changing the control point where you bring it back down to 0 from 150 to 180 or so in all curves. The nice thing about the App/Ratbuddy is you can make such changes, save it under a different file name and try numerous different curves pretty quickly and easily.


Also, if your main speakers sound good in the bass region, don't be afraid to try lower crossover points (at least for music) (40 might be marginal for those speakers, but 60 should work pretty well). Once you get the curves to match you can try different crossover points without changing the shape of the overall curve to see which you like best--it might actually be hard to tell the difference when everything is matched up.
Jon, I am very close or there. With the 40Hz Xover, it really sounds great. Question for you on the custom curve. You have the +6 from 20 to 55Hz then taper to 150 or 180. Is there a "cookbook" for this? Is there a reason for the sharper rise with the more gradual rolloff?
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I get it. However, it sounded different to me. Strange. Also, how is it that there's an audible difference between "L/R Bypass" and "Flat", when in both cases, I'm using only the fronts and in theory, nothing is applied to them in bypass mode? Shouldn't it sound the same?
L/R Bypass has no Audyssey curve applied to the LR speakers. Flat does. They will not sound the same.
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L/R Bypass has no Audyssey curve applied to the LR speakers. Flat does. They will not sound the same.
OK thanks. If I decide to try tweaking my curves -- phrasing! -- what setting should I use, then? "Reference" or "Flat"?

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Gary, your posts are always insightful and "real world" Basically, what you posted make 100% sense and is exactly what I have seen. For 2 ch music, with a capable set of Fronts, there isnt a need for a SW. Music (most types) doesnt go low enough to need them. Audyssey in its effort to make everything flat neutered the sound of my speakers and thats how they sounded. Flat. With the custom curver and lowering the xover to 40Hz, now my fronts can work as they were designed to. "Strut their stuff" as you put it.

For movies, to me there is an LFE channel for a reason. Low freq contend that is appropriate for the SW has a dedicated channel. I think with the 40Hz Xover and new curve, my mains will sound better for the scores and such that would be sent there. The thunderous low freq content will be in the LFE channel and will go to the subs. I will watch some movie content tonight.

What are your thoughts on center channel? It is also fairly capable. Klipsch RC-62II. Has 2x 6.5" drivers. I have the Xover @ 80 now. Should I go to 60? Since it is not used for music, just movies. what is appropriate frequency range that "belongs" in a center channel?

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Right you are. If you have the regular (bass management) crossover at 40 Hz, and the Low Pass Filter for LFE at 120 Hz, you should miss nothing, providing your front speakers are good to 40 Hz (it sounds like they are). Very little orchestral music has fundamentals below 40 Hz (the best theater systems, like Cinerama with Altec Lansing, and 70 mm Todd-AO with James B. Lansing, used to start their serious roll-off at 40 Hz) and if there is lower music on some soundtracks, it will go to the sub, anyway, so, no loss. As to the LPF for LFE, some people (myself included) think the special effects sound is clearer with the LPF set at 80 Hz, rather than the prescribed 120. Roger Dressler (formerly of Dolby Labs) and Mark Seaton (founder Seaton Sound) agree. The sound above 80 Hz from the LFE track will still come through (up to 120) but will be attenuated. This cuts down on the bloated boominess that sometimes obscures deeper sound effects, as well as deep bass in music.


So, IMO, it is likely that one can get the tightest, clearest bass for both the music and effects in movies by:

  1. Setting the crossover for either 40 Hz (if you want your main front speakers to strut their stuff, and they will go down that far, cleanly) or 80 Hz. Note that with many AVRs the crossover can be set individually for the center (often inferior to the LF & RF), the surrounds (often small compared to others), and the "mains" (LF & RF).
  2. Setting the LPF for 80 Hz.
  3. If you can, and have the room, using a good folded horn loaded, probably tapped, subwoofer. Caution, the smaller ones don't go down very far. Their forte is clarity and low distortion, not wide range -- but the big ones tend to do well.
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OK thanks. If I decide to try tweaking my curves -- phrasing! -- what setting should I use, then? "Reference" or "Flat"?
Im not 100%, but fairly certain that only the reference curve is tweakable.
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OK thanks. If I decide to try tweaking my curves -- phrasing! -- what setting should I use, then? "Reference" or "Flat"?
Only the Reference curve can be tweaked via the app... not Flat or L/R BP.
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Gary, your posts are always insightful and "real world" Basically, what you posted make 100% sense and is exactly what I have seen. For 2 ch music, with a capable set of Fronts, there isnt a need for a SW. Music (most types) doesnt go low enough to need them. Audyssey in its effort to make everything flat neutered the sound of my speakers and thats how they sounded. Flat. With the custom curver and lowering the xover to 40Hz, now my fronts can work as they were designed to. "Strut their stuff" as you put it.

For movies, to me there is an LFE channel for a reason. Low freq contend that is appropriate for the SW has a dedicated channel. I think with the 40Hz Xover and new curve, my mains will sound better for the scores and such that would be sent there. The thunderous low freq content will be in the LFE channel and will go to the subs. I will watch some movie content tonight.

What are your thoughts on center channel? It is also fairly capable. Klipsch RC-62II. Has 2x 6.5" drivers. I have the Xover @ 80 now. Should I go to 60? Since it is not used for music, just movies. what is appropriate frequency range that "belongs" in a center channel?


Hi,

I think that you should use whatever crossovers sound best to you. If that is 40Hz or 60Hz, so be it. It is important, though, to distinguish between most music listening and 5.1 movies. Remember too, that your subwoofers will, in most cases, play frequencies below about 80Hz more strongly than most speakers will, and that the crossover isn't a brick wall. It is just a slope which attenuates the volume of a speaker by 12db per octave. If you set a 40Hz crossover for movies, and have a lot of low-bass content, your speakers may distort on some of the low-bass content.

You may or may not be consciously aware of the distortion, since the speakers are playing softer at 35Hz, or at 30Hz, than the subwoofers are. But, that potential distortion may still interfere with the overall clarity of the sound. In a calibrated system, which employs fairly linear subwoofers, and automated room correction, even subtle distortion may not be something you would wish for.

I think that there is some confusion about how bass works in 5.1 movies. The low-bass special effects in movies are not restricted to the .1 LFE channel. The LFE channel was simply created as a way to add more bass to the special effects in movies. Consequently, the Low-Frequency Effects channel is recorded 10db louder than the bass in the regular channels. But, the regular channels still play the same bass content that the LFE channel plays. That's an important point to understand.

What that means is that, if you are listening at -10MV, for instance, your regular channels will play whatever bass is encoded in the soundtrack at a peak volume of 95db, and your subwoofers will play the LFE content at peak volumes of 105db, and whatever bass is redirected to them, via crossovers, at peak volumes of 95db. (That obviously doesn't count whatever subwoofer boosts you are adding, or the action of DEQ, which boosts the bass in all of the channels and not just the subwoofers.)

So, using the example above, of a listening level of -10MV, you may really not want your speakers trying to play 50Hz at 95db (not counting DEQ) much less 40Hz at that same volume level. I think it is very important to distinguish between the use of Large, or Small with a 40/60Hz crossover, for relatively benign music, (non-bass enhanced music such as EDM) versus the use of low crossovers for 5.1 action movies.

Those are completely different things with completely different potential results in sound quality. There is a reason that Dolby/THX standards have consistently recommended 80Hz and higher crossovers for 5.1 movie watching. As with everything in audio, there can certainly be exceptions to best practice recommendations, and I always believe in the concept of YMMV.

But, I do think it is important to point out why it is rarely advisable to set crossovers lower than 80Hz, and almost never advisable to set them lower than 60Hz, for 5.1 movie viewing at anything other than very low listening levels. And, even then, DEQ may not be your friend if your crossovers are too low, as it will boost the bass in your regular channels by quite a bit. And, that may cause the speakers to distort with some bass content. Good bass management for 5.1 movies is just a good idea.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 05-20-2019 at 09:45 AM.
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The low-bass special effects in movies are not restricted to the .1 LFE channel. The LFE channel was simply created as a way to add more bass to the special effects in movies. Consequently, the Low-Frequency Effects channel is recorded 10db louder than the bass in the regular channels. But, the regular channels still play the same bass content that the LFE channel plays. That's an important point to understand.
Wow. I knew that some bass is indeed explicitly sent to the LFE while some other is spread throughout the rest, but I did not know about the 10db louder. Great knowledge. I tip my hat to you.

However, it makes me wonder about what I've chosen as crossover for my fronts. I guess it must be even worse for distortion, when they are set at "Large" (Full Band)...
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