"Official" Audyssey thread Part II - Page 219 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6541 of 6880 Old 05-20-2019, 10:21 AM
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THE MAN Speaks! Thanks for joining this discussion. This is a real struggle for me. 2 Ch music and movie watching are equally important for me. I dont want settings that are a detriment to either. The out of the box audyssey setup, ref or flat with 80Hz xover just sounds bad for music. The custom curve seen here with the lower xover has made a world of difference. Basically what Im trying to do is have the mains do their thing as much as possible without Audyssey flattening out the great bass response that they have. Your points about the movie tradeoff are appreciated. I didnt know that the LFE was shared between the .1 channel and others as much as it is. That is important info.

I can see why people run a dedicated 2 ch system for music! Im not going to do that so I have to make this work. What Im not willing to do is change settings when switching between music and movies. As example, changing xover setting or large/small speaker settings. Whatever has to happen automatically with what the input recalls. So to not affect movie performance, I need to find a setting with 80Hz xover that still sounds good with music. That means more SW involvement again. I guess I could poke around with SW levels and maybe tone in the channel adjust and see if I can get it close to where I am now with that.

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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I think that you should use whatever crossovers sound best to you. If that is 40Hz or 60Hz, so be it. It is important, though, to distinguish between most music listening and 5.1 movies. Remember too, that your subwoofers will, in most cases, play frequencies below about 80Hz more strongly than most speakers will, and that the crossover isn't a brick wall. It is just a slope which attenuates the volume of a speaker by 12db per octave. If you set a 40Hz crossover for movies, and have a lot of low-bass content, your speakers may distort on some of the low-bass content.

You may or may not be consciously aware of the distortion, since the speakers are playing softer at 35Hz, or at 30Hz, than the subwoofers are. But, that potential distortion may still interfere with the overall clarity of the sound. In a calibrated system, which employs fairly linear subwoofers, and automated room correction, even subtle distortion may not be something you would wish for.

I think that there is some confusion about how bass works in 5.1 movies. The low-bass special effects in movies are not restricted to the .1 LFE channel. The LFE channel was simply created as a way to add more bass to the special effects in movies. Consequently, the Low-Frequency Effects channel is recorded 10db louder than the bass in the regular channels. But, the regular channels still play the same bass content that the LFE channel plays. That's an important point to understand.

What that means is that, if you are listening at -10MV, for instance, your regular channels will play whatever bass is encoded in the soundtrack at a peak volume of 95db, and your subwoofers will play the LFE content at peak volumes of 105db, and whatever bass is redirected to them, via crossovers, at peak volumes of 95db. (That obviously doesn't count whatever subwoofer boosts you are adding, or the action of DEQ, which boosts the bass in all of the channels and not just the subwoofers.)

So, using the example above, of a listening level of -10MV, you may really not want your speakers trying to play 50Hz at 95db (not counting DEQ) much less 40Hz at that same volume level. I think it is very important to distinguish between the use of Large, or Small with a 40/60Hz crossover, for relatively benign music, (non-bass enhanced music such as EDM) versus the use of low crossovers for 5.1 action movies.

Those are completely different things with completely different potential results in sound quality. There is a reason that Dolby/THX standards have consistently recommended 80Hz and higher crossovers for 5.1 movie watching. As with everything in audio, there can certainly be exceptions to best practice recommendations, and I always believe in the concept of YMMV.

But, I do think it is important to point out why it is rarely advisable to set crossovers lower than 80Hz, and almost never advisable to set them lower than 60Hz, for 5.1 movie viewing at anything other than very low listening levels. And, even then, DEQ may not be your friend if your crossovers are too low, as it will boost the bass in your regular channels by quite a bit. And, that may cause the speakers to distort with some bass content. Good bass management for 5.1 movies is just a good idea.

Regards,
Mike
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post #6542 of 6880 Old 05-20-2019, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by DigitalSelf View Post
Wow. I knew that some bass is indeed explicitly sent to the LFE while some other is spread throughout the rest, but I did not know about the 10db louder. Great knowledge. I tip my hat to you.

However, it makes me wonder about what I've chosen as crossover for my fronts. I guess it must be even worse for distortion, when they are set at "Large" (Full Band)...
That brings up another question. Not everyone has a SW at all. My daughter/son in law are in an apt so no SW. They run a 5.0 with the mains set to large. Other 3 speakers at 80Hz xover. The mains are doing all the LFE. What happens here? I guess just distortion when audio is too low freq for the mains to handle or sound just isnt there.
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post #6543 of 6880 Old 05-20-2019, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by DigitalSelf View Post
Wow. I knew that some bass is indeed explicitly sent to the LFE while some other is spread throughout the rest, but I did not know about the 10db louder. Great knowledge. I tip my hat to you.

However, it makes me wonder about what I've chosen as crossover for my fronts. I guess it must be even worse for distortion, when they are set at "Large" (Full Band)...

Hi DigitalSelf et al,

Let’s talk a bit about Bass Management, the idea behind and how it is implemented and why it works the way it is built into modern AVRs. Please note BM has nothing to do with the separate LFE (the 0.1 channel).

First off, our human ears work in a way that we are able to pinpoint the source direction of high and mid frequencies, yet, as we start to go down we will reach a point where we still hear the intensity of deep sounds but will be unable to detect its direction.

While the wavelength of high and mid frequencies are much less than the distance of our two ears on our head the sound reaches one ear before it reaches the other one, giving a clue to the brain to process the directional information. Once the wavelength of a (deep) sound becomes comparable to the two ear’s distance, this ability fails coz due to the case that the sound reaches both ears at the same time leaving the brain fail to process any directional info. This phenomenon typically cuts in at or around 80 Hz and lower.

This was the base (and not bass!) of the principle of „inventing” Bass Management where the idea of filtering our frequencies below 80 Hz from all speakers (sometimes called satellites) in a surround system and redirecting them to a subwoofer really works.

Let’s see another aspect which is bass interacting with our room boundaries causing unwanted effect called „standing waves” that will result in peaks (boosts) and „nulls” (suck outs) depending on the locations of subwoofer(s) vs. the location of the listener.

Those lucky guys who are in a position to build their own dedicated HT rooms are free to plan and install any acoustic treatments (e.g. ugly looking bass traps) typically not being limited to WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor), while (we) normal mortals trying to set up a listening environment as perfect as it can (not) be must take into consideration the previously mentioned WAF!

So, speakers (satellites) must always be set/placed for the best sound stage imaging, while subwoofers need special considerations for reaching deep, smooth and even bass. The two will never coincide, but that's not a problem when the whole concept of Bass Management is understood by the endusers.

Hope this helps.

P.s.:

1. In my above write up you may search the key words „movie” or „music”, but nothing will show up. This is because we are talking room-speaker/ room-subwoofer interaction which is totally independent of contents being played.

2. I hear you saying: „But I can pinpoint the direction of a bass guitar without problem." Well that’s just a paradox, an apparent contradiction coz what you are hearing is the harmonic(s) of the bass note coming from a speaker while the fundamental frequency is indeed played by the subwoofer. Thats the way it works.

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post #6544 of 6880 Old 05-20-2019, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by sjm817 View Post
THE MAN Speaks! Thanks for joining this discussion. This is a real struggle for me. 2 Ch music and movie watching are equally important for me. I dont want settings that are a detriment to either. The out of the box audyssey setup, ref or flat with 80Hz xover just sounds bad for music. The custom curve seen here with the lower xover has made a world of difference. Basically what Im trying to do is have the mains do their thing as much as possible without Audyssey flattening out the great bass response that they have. Your points about the movie tradeoff are appreciated. I didnt know that the LFE was shared between the .1 channel and others as much as it is. That is important info.

I can see why people run a dedicated 2 ch system for music! Im not going to do that so I have to make this work. What Im not willing to do is change settings when switching between music and movies. As example, changing xover setting or large/small speaker settings. Whatever has to happen automatically with what the input recalls. So to not affect movie performance, I need to find a setting with 80Hz xover that still sounds good with music. That means more SW involvement again. I guess I could poke around with SW levels and maybe tone in the channel adjust and see if I can get it close to where I am now with that.

You are very welcome! Everything is a trade-off, and different people make compromises in different places. Some people use the same settings for everything, and some people alter some of their settings as they move from one venue to another (music versus movies), or depending on the specific program, or even depending on their mood of the moment. For instance my master volume and subwoofer boosts are somewhat program and mood dependent. There is no single right or wrong answer to the issue of what settings to use, and whether or not to change them at times, in my opinion.

It may be that you can find a single group of settings that will sound equally good to you for both music and for movies. I really can't! I change settings as I move from music to movies, and vice-versa. Among other things, my preferences for deep, tactile bass change. And, since I know my setting preferences for both listening venues, it's the work of seconds to make the changes I want to make.

You may find that, as you discover what you really like for music that is different for movies, you will become more confident about making setting changes as you navigate back-and-forth between the two. Sometimes, that happens. Or as noted, you may find a single group of settings that sounds equally good for both venues. It's all about how and where we are willing to compromise, if we do happen to find differences between the two listening venues.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #6545 of 6880 Old 05-20-2019, 12:06 PM
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Ive adjusted some more and think I have it pretty good. Im back to 80Hz and with the combo of the custom curve and some channel level SW boost, I have a very similar response. Listening to a few tracks sounds just fine. I dont see anything that is there being a negative for movies. I didnt do a REW sweep with the 40Hz Xover and there was a HUGE dip around the 35Hz level. Not good. That is gone now.

I have to say, the Denon with all the options, global and source/channel specific is pretty darn nice. Add in the MultiEQ app with Audyssey and we have an incredibly tunable system. Steep learning curve to understand it all but if you put the time in with all the expert help there is here, you can get it right.

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You are very welcome! Everything is a trade-off, and different people make compromises in different places. Some people use the same settings for everything, and some people alter some of their settings as they move from one venue to another (music versus movies), or depending on the specific program, or even depending on their mood of the moment. For instance my master volume and subwoofer boosts are somewhat program and mood dependent. There is no single right or wrong answer to the issue of what settings to use, and whether or not to change them at times, in my opinion.

It may be that you can find a single group of settings that will sound equally good to you for both music and for movies. I really can't! I change settings as I move from music to movies, and vice-versa. Among other things, my preferences for deep, tactile bass change. And, since I know my setting preferences for both listening venues, it's the work of seconds to make the changes I want to make.

You may find that, as you discover what you really like for music that is different for movies, you will become more confident about making setting changes as you navigate back-and-forth between the two. Sometimes, that happens. Or as noted, you may find a single group of settings that sounds equally good for both venues. It's all about how and where we are willing to compromise, if we do happen to find differences between the two listening venues.

Regards,
Mike
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post #6546 of 6880 Old 05-20-2019, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
You are very welcome! Everything is a trade-off, and different people make compromises in different places. Some people use the same settings for everything, and some people alter some of their settings as they move from one venue to another (music versus movies), or depending on the specific program, or even depending on their mood of the moment. For instance my master volume and subwoofer boosts are somewhat program and mood dependent. There is no single right or wrong answer to the issue of what settings to use, and whether or not to change them at times, in my opinion.

It may be that you can find a single group of settings that will sound equally good to you for both music and for movies. I really can't! I change settings as I move from music to movies, and vice-versa. Among other things, my preferences for deep, tactile bass change. And, since I know my setting preferences for both listening venues, it's the work of seconds to make the changes I want to make.

You may find that, as you discover what you really like for music that is different for movies, you will become more confident about making setting changes as you navigate back-and-forth between the two. Sometimes, that happens. Or as noted, you may find a single group of settings that sounds equally good for both venues. It's all about how and where we are willing to compromise, if we do happen to find differences between the two listening venues.

Regards,
Mike
It is unfortunate that the speaker setup cannot be tweaked by input. What a great feature that would be! According to what you pointed out, leaving the fronts to "Large" really is not ideal. Could it even damage them, with too much distortion when there's deep bass?

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post #6547 of 6880 Old 05-20-2019, 12:55 PM
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Jon, I am very close or there. With the 40Hz Xover, it really sounds great. Question for you on the custom curve. You have the +6 from 20 to 55Hz then taper to 150 or 180. Is there a "cookbook" for this? Is there a reason for the sharper rise with the more gradual rolloff?
Sort of, but not really anything scientific I've done myself. I've been mainly looking at various in-room response curves from Harman, JBL Sythesis; some of the "preferred listening curve" studies done by Floyd Toole, Olive, etc, and experimented from there. Basically from the philosophy (as Floyd likes to say) people can "hear through the room." Put a set of big speakers in a room and you will get reinforcement in the base region. This is what your mind expects to hear. Cutting that out by EQing them "Flat" and they sound neutered to most people. That's probably my biggest gripe with Audyssey--that it does that by default...and why nearly everybody feels the need to boost the sub level to some extent after calibration.



There's certainly no magic curve that everybody will prefer in every room, so you need to experiment to find the level you like the best. For example I'm currently only running a 4 db boost on the lower end, but do use the DEQ to some extent. Use of the DEQ and your listening levels can make a big difference in how much boost you want on the bottom. If you use it with Ref 0, you may only want 2-3 db boost on the bottom or your house may be shaking on content it shouldn't be. If you run it at -10, -15 or completely off, you may want a larger boost on the bottom. Luckily with Ratbuddy it's easy to type in the values and simply try different files until you find what you like.


I also alter the upper end of the curve a bit and could post that if you like, giving a more gradual straight rolloff than the reference curve, though admittedly it's a pretty subtle difference.


The big concept made possible with the App, that I think few are taking advantage of is correcting the speakers and subs to the same curve with levels matched. Not only does it give you better integration between the two, allow you to test different crossover points without altering the tonal balance (overall curve should remain roughly the same) but it really helps for tonally matching all of your speakers. For example if you have your mains crossed over somewhere in the 40-80 hz range, but you have small surrounds that need to be crossed over at 110 or 120.... If everything is corrected flat but your sub is boosted 6 db in level, then your surrounds will have bloated bass and a different tonal balance than your mains because the sub is running hot and flat all the way out to high frequencies.



On your crossover setting for the mains, I agree with what others have said that 40 is probably fine at lower volume levels for movies, but at some point as volume goes up your mains probably can't put out the volume as cleanly as your subs can in the 60-80 hz range. I'd suggest seeing of at least 60 hz sounds OK to you for music as even that might help out your mains a lot for loud bass-heavy movies.


This issue doesn't seem uncommon; it's too bad Dennon/Marantz don't put the 2-Channel mode on their lower level models. With Marantz I think it starts with the 7012. That's what I have, but it's moot for me at the moment as my current front speakers are small and need to be crossed over at 80 for music anyway.... But I will have much larger fronts when we get the new house built, I may make much use of it then.

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post #6548 of 6880 Old 05-20-2019, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by DigitalSelf View Post
It is unfortunate that the speaker setup cannot be tweaked by input. What a great feature that would be! According to what you pointed out, leaving the fronts to "Large" really is not ideal. Could it even damage them, with too much distortion when there's deep bass?

I honestly don't know whether you could damage your speakers that way or not. I want to say no, that they would probably only distort if they tried to play frequencies that they couldn't play effectively. But, it would probably depend somewhat on the individual speakers and on your listening levels. If you had sudden deep bass from explosions or whatever, they could create a fair bit of distortion at higher volume levels. And, sine waves could potentially fry the voice coils in your speakers (just as they can in subs) if the sine waves were sustained. I wouldn't really sweat it at all at about -20MV or below, but I would probably be careful with my volume level if I watched really bass-intensive action movies with my speakers set to Large.



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Sort of, but not really anything scientific I've done myself. I've been mainly looking at various in-room response curves from Harman, JBL Sythesis; some of the "preferred listening curve" studies done by Floyd Toole, Olive, etc, and experimented from there. Basically from the philosophy (as Floyd likes to say) people can "hear through the room." Put a set of big speakers in a room and you will get reinforcement in the base region. This is what your mind expects to hear. Cutting that out by EQing them "Flat" and they sound neutered to most people. That's probably my biggest gripe with Audyssey--that it does that by default...and why nearly everybody feels the need to boost the sub level to some extent after calibration.

Something that I think is important to remember is that bass frequencies are harder to hear than those in our normal hearing range. So, at below Reference listening levels, most people will, in fact, need to add bass to restore acoustic equilibrium to 5.1 movies. And, many people may want to add bass to music or to TV shows as well.

Audyssey, however, does exactly what it needs to do when it sets all the transducers in a system (including the subwoofers) to produce the same measured SPL at the MLP. Among other things, how can it EQ all frequencies, from 10Hz to 22KHz, to the same volume level (+/- 3db) if all frequencies in that range aren't starting at the same volume level? It has to try to start with as flat a graph line as possible.

After Audyssey calibrates the channels, and performs its EQ, we can use DEQ and/or our own subwoofer boosts to restore acoustic equilibrium at below Reference listening levels, or simply to suit our own bass preferences. But, Audyssey needs to at least start with a level playing field in order to perform its EQ. It could add an arbitrary boost to the low-frequencies played by the subwoofers, after the calibration, as long as everyone had subwoofers. But, whatever arbitrary sub boost (such as +3db at X frequency and below) it added would only be valid for some listeners, at some listening levels. Change the listener, or change the listening level, and the preferred sub boost would inevitably change too.

DEQ is theoretically intended to be more dynamic, and more master volume-dependent, than an arbitrary bass boost would be. And, people can decide for themselves whether or not it is. Listeners can simply choose to use DEQ, either by itself or in conjunction with an independent bass boost, or they can create their own house curve, once Audyssey has presented them with the flattest result it can.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 05-20-2019 at 01:41 PM.
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post #6549 of 6880 Old 05-20-2019, 01:53 PM
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Sub distance tweak for Phase. I found an old post on here to help ensure phase between sub and mains, you could use an SPL meter (I used C weighted, slow) and tone generator. It said set to stereo mode, invert the phase on the sub, play the tone, I used 80hz because that's where my crossover is set, and increase sub distance until you get the lowest SPL reading, then invert phase again and good to go. However, as I increased distance on the sub, I never got a decrease in SPL, no matter how many feet I added to the sub. The AVR is an Denon X3500H. Did I need to exit the distance setting for the distance to take effect? I was doing this out of pure just testing and curiosity to see if it would make a change, not because I thought anything was wrong, but hey if I can make it sound better, why not. Only it didn't work as intended. Why would this be?
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post #6550 of 6880 Old 05-20-2019, 02:06 PM
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Restorer

Hi guys,

I came across the restorer option reading a couple of Vinyl articles. Just wondering if anyone using it and its benefits. On my Denon its default setting is low for internet radio. The vinyl guys like it and I did try it and it did give it more fullness. Wondering if its some king of loudness feature and will it mess up my use of tone controls during music. The manual isn't that helpful.
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post #6551 of 6880 Old 05-20-2019, 02:54 PM
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Sub distance tweak for Phase. I found an old post on here to help ensure phase between sub and mains, you could use an SPL meter (I used C weighted, slow) and tone generator. It said set to stereo mode, invert the phase on the sub, play the tone, I used 80hz because that's where my crossover is set, and increase sub distance until you get the lowest SPL reading, then invert phase again and good to go. However, as I increased distance on the sub, I never got a decrease in SPL, no matter how many feet I added to the sub. The AVR is an Denon X3500H. Did I need to exit the distance setting for the distance to take effect? I was doing this out of pure just testing and curiosity to see if it would make a change, not because I thought anything was wrong, but hey if I can make it sound better, why not. Only it didn't work as intended. Why would this be?

This would be because sub distance tweak usually works for one single point in space which is basically against the theory of Audyssey as being a room correction system for a multi-seated environment. You move your head a few inches apart and get a totally different experience. So, that's why it doesn't work as intended!
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post #6552 of 6880 Old 05-20-2019, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by sjm817 View Post
L/R Bypass has no Audyssey curve applied to the LR speakers. Flat does. They will not sound the same.
They might sound the same if the listener isn't a discerning listener, doesn't listen long enough to hear a difference, isn't listening to musical material that would allow the difference to be heard clearly, or actually has a system that Audyssey doesn't need to "fix" much.

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post #6553 of 6880 Old 05-20-2019, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by HYPURR DBL NKL View Post
Sub distance tweak for Phase. I found an old post on here to help ensure phase between sub and mains, you could use an SPL meter (I used C weighted, slow) and tone generator. It said set to stereo mode, invert the phase on the sub, play the tone, I used 80hz because that's where my crossover is set, and increase sub distance until you get the lowest SPL reading, then invert phase again and good to go. However, as I increased distance on the sub, I never got a decrease in SPL, no matter how many feet I added to the sub. The AVR is an Denon X3500H. Did I need to exit the distance setting for the distance to take effect? I was doing this out of pure just testing and curiosity to see if it would make a change, not because I thought anything was wrong, but hey if I can make it sound better, why not. Only it didn't work as intended. Why would this be?
Yup...it's because you didn't back out of the Speaker Distance settings. Once you do that, you will see a difference, I guarantee it.
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post #6554 of 6880 Old 05-20-2019, 03:08 PM
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Hi guys,

I came across the restorer option reading a couple of Vinyl articles. Just wondering if anyone using it and its benefits. On my Denon its default setting is low for internet radio. The vinyl guys like it and I did try it and it did give it more fullness. Wondering if its some king of loudness feature and will it mess up my use of tone controls during music. The manual isn't that helpful.
On my 4520 I have always used Restorer set to 'Low' for music, to my ears it just sounds flat without it.

FYI, my music sources are mostly high-bitrate (320kbs) MP3 and FLAC.
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post #6555 of 6880 Old 05-20-2019, 03:09 PM
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They might sound the same if the listener isn't a discerning listener, doesn't listen long enough to hear a difference, isn't listening to musical material that would allow the difference to be heard clearly, or actually has a system that Audyssey doesn't need to "fix" much.

Very well said Peter. We all need to train our ears in order to appreciate the difference.
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post #6556 of 6880 Old 05-20-2019, 03:15 PM
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Sub distance tweak for Phase. I found an old post on here to help ensure phase between sub and mains, you could use an SPL meter (I used C weighted, slow) and tone generator. It said set to stereo mode, invert the phase on the sub, play the tone, I used 80hz because that's where my crossover is set, and increase sub distance until you get the lowest SPL reading, then invert phase again and good to go. However, as I increased distance on the sub, I never got a decrease in SPL, no matter how many feet I added to the sub. The AVR is an Denon X3500H. Did I need to exit the distance setting for the distance to take effect? I was doing this out of pure just testing and curiosity to see if it would make a change, not because I thought anything was wrong, but hey if I can make it sound better, why not. Only it didn't work as intended. Why would this be?
Yup...it's because you didn't back out of the Speaker Distance settings. Once you do that, you will see a difference, I guarantee it. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG]
How funny you replied, it was your old post, I was referring to, lol. I will try it again sometime and back out after I make the changes.
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post #6557 of 6880 Old 05-20-2019, 03:53 PM
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They might sound the same if the listener isn't a discerning listener, doesn't listen long enough to hear a difference, isn't listening to musical material that would allow the difference to be heard clearly, or actually has a system that Audyssey doesn't need to "fix" much.
As far as I'm concerned, I did hear a difference, hence my initial puzzlement.

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Hi,

I think that you should use whatever crossovers sound best to you. If that is 40Hz or 60Hz, so be it. It is important, though, to distinguish between most music listening and 5.1 movies. Remember too, that your subwoofers will, in most cases, play frequencies below about 80Hz more strongly than most speakers will, and that the crossover isn't a brick wall. It is just a slope which attenuates the volume of a speaker by 12db per octave. If you set a 40Hz crossover for movies, and have a lot of low-bass content, your speakers may distort on some of the low-bass content.

You may or may not be consciously aware of the distortion, since the speakers are playing softer at 35Hz, or at 30Hz, than the subwoofers are. But, that potential distortion may still interfere with the overall clarity of the sound. In a calibrated system, which employs fairly linear subwoofers, and automated room correction, even subtle distortion may not be something you would wish for.

I think that there is some confusion about how bass works in 5.1 movies. The low-bass special effects in movies are not restricted to the .1 LFE channel. The LFE channel was simply created as a way to add more bass to the special effects in movies. Consequently, the Low-Frequency Effects channel is recorded 10db louder than the bass in the regular channels. But, the regular channels still play the same bass content that the LFE channel plays. That's an important point to understand.

What that means is that, if you are listening at -10MV, for instance, your regular channels will play whatever bass is encoded in the soundtrack at a peak volume of 95db, and your subwoofers will play the LFE content at peak volumes of 105db, and whatever bass is redirected to them, via crossovers, at peak volumes of 95db. (That obviously doesn't count whatever subwoofer boosts you are adding, or the action of DEQ, which boosts the bass in all of the channels and not just the subwoofers.)

So, using the example above, of a listening level of -10MV, you may really not want your speakers trying to play 50Hz at 95db (not counting DEQ) much less 40Hz at that same volume level. I think it is very important to distinguish between the use of Large, or Small with a 40/60Hz crossover, for relatively benign music, (non-bass enhanced music such as EDM) versus the use of low crossovers for 5.1 action movies.

Those are completely different things with completely different potential results in sound quality. There is a reason that Dolby/THX standards have consistently recommended 80Hz and higher crossovers for 5.1 movie watching. As with everything in audio, there can certainly be exceptions to best practice recommendations, and I always believe in the concept of YMMV.

But, I do think it is important to point out why it is rarely advisable to set crossovers lower than 80Hz, and almost never advisable to set them lower than 60Hz, for 5.1 movie viewing at anything other than very low listening levels. And, even then, DEQ may not be your friend if your crossovers are too low, as it will boost the bass in your regular channels by quite a bit. And, that may cause the speakers to distort with some bass content. Good bass management for 5.1 movies is just a good idea.

Regards,
Mike
Why not set up things for 5.1 with about 80hz crossover and then in manual set up go to the 2ch playback option and set the crossover to what is best for music his music listening.
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post #6559 of 6880 Old 05-20-2019, 04:03 PM
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Why not set up things for 5.1 with about 80hz crossover and then in manual set up go to the 2ch playback option and set the crossover to what is best for music his music listening.
Because some people like me don't have that option, with their poor-man AVR (SR5012)
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post #6560 of 6880 Old 05-20-2019, 04:32 PM
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Because some people like me don't have that option, with their poor-man AVR (SR5012)

Nope, its not a poor-mans setup, but an awkward setup with the main L&Rs running through an integrated stereo amp (MM7025) causing your problem.
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post #6561 of 6880 Old 05-20-2019, 04:35 PM
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Because some people like me don't have that option, with their poor-man AVR (SR5012)
Honestly i would rather spend a few minutes changing setting between movie and music listening than having it all at 80hz and searching for a compromise.
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post #6562 of 6880 Old 05-20-2019, 04:41 PM
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Honestly i would rather spend a few minutes changing setting between movie and music listening than having it all at 80hz and searching for a compromise.

Again and again, there is no difference between movie and music when it comes to setting an 80 Hz crossover. Please stop the misguidance once and for all. Please!! This will lead to nowhere. Just think about a concert BD! Is it a movie or music?
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post #6563 of 6880 Old 05-20-2019, 04:50 PM
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As far as I'm concerned, I did hear a difference, hence my initial puzzlement.
I think most people would as well..... I know I could detect each one 100/100 times in a blind test.
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post #6564 of 6880 Old 05-20-2019, 05:00 PM
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I think most people would as well..... I know I could detect each one 100/100 times in a blind test.

This not a question of hearing differences, but a question of proper setup. A right and a wrong setup will surely bring about differences to be heard. I'd be surprised if that wouldn't happen.
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post #6565 of 6880 Old 05-20-2019, 05:12 PM
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This not a question of hearing differences, but a question of proper setup. A right and a wrong setup will surely bring about differences to be heard. I'd be surprised if that wouldn't happen.
Actually this was about hearing, at least to the member I was conversing with regarding them hearing a difference with Audyssey turned on or off on their front speakers.
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post #6566 of 6880 Old 05-20-2019, 05:14 PM
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Audyssey, however, does exactly what it needs to do when it sets all the transducers in a system (including the subwoofers) to produce the same measured SPL at the MLP. Among other things, how can it EQ all frequencies, from 10Hz to 22KHz, to the same volume level (+/- 3db) if all frequencies in that range aren't starting at the same volume level? It has to try to start with as flat a graph line as possible.

After Audyssey calibrates the channels, and performs its EQ, we can use DEQ and/or our own subwoofer boosts to restore acoustic equilibrium at below Reference listening levels, or simply to suit our own bass preferences. But, Audyssey needs to at least start with a level playing field in order to perform its EQ. It could add an arbitrary boost to the low-frequencies played by the subwoofers, after the calibration, as long as everyone had subwoofers. But, whatever arbitrary sub boost (such as +3db at X frequency and below) it added would only be valid for some listeners, at some listening levels. Change the listener, or change the listening level, and the preferred sub boost would inevitably change too.
I agree that's what Audyssey is doing (and why you need to boost the sub if it is EQ'd to a curve like I show above in order to put it at the proper level). I don't agree that it has to do that. Many higher level (more expensive) room correction systems have curves like I show above as default or selectable options and they can get the levels correct. The whole "calibrate the system, THEN boost the sub 3-6 db" procedure used by so many is really an Audyssey specific one.
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post #6567 of 6880 Old 05-20-2019, 05:23 PM
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Gary, your posts are always insightful and "real world" Basically, what you posted make 100% sense and is exactly what I have seen. For 2 ch music, with a capable set of Fronts, there isnt a need for a SW. Music (most types) doesnt go low enough to need them. Audyssey in its effort to make everything flat neutered the sound of my speakers and thats how they sounded. Flat. With the custom curver and lowering the xover to 40Hz, now my fronts can work as they were designed to. "Strut their stuff" as you put it.

For movies, to me there is an LFE channel for a reason. Low freq contend that is appropriate for the SW has a dedicated channel. I think with the 40Hz Xover and new curve, my mains will sound better for the scores and such that would be sent there. The thunderous low freq content will be in the LFE channel and will go to the subs. I will watch some movie content tonight.

What are your thoughts on center channel? It is also fairly capable. Klipsch RC-62II. Has 2x 6.5" drivers. I have the Xover @ 80 now. Should I go to 60? Since it is not used for music, just movies. what is appropriate frequency range that "belongs" in a center channel?

Thanks for the praise.


I don't know the Klipsch RC-62II. I love some of their larger speakers.
As with so many other things, you probably just have to try it. Be careful, though. Most movie re-mixers don't put much -- except dialog -- in the center (on Blu-rays meant, as they are, for the home, because most home centers are pretty small. In a moment of excess, I installed a three way center with a 15" woofer, horn loaded, and tests show quite lot of bass comes through, even though it is wired as a center). But the mixes for commercial theaters have as much in the center as anywhere else. I suspect that sometimes they don't bother to adapt those mixes for home viewing. In some cases, a pipe organ is among the forces marshaled. So, while being careful, you could try a lower crossover, but I probably wouldn't. A 6.5" woofer, even in a pair, may not go much below 60 Hz, and it is usually recommended that the X-over be something like an octave above, i.e., 120 Hz. Of course, this could be prejudice on my part. Does your AVR assign "small" or "large" to your center? Mike addresses the problem of setting the X-over somewhere in his Guide. Maybe he will chime in and tell you exactly where.
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post #6568 of 6880 Old 05-20-2019, 05:45 PM
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Again and again, there is no difference between movie and music when it comes to setting an 80 Hz crossover. Please stop the misguidance once and for all. Please!! This will lead to nowhere. Just think about a concert BD! Is it a movie or music?
100% true and I agree with everything you mentioned in your post. What I meant to say is that he was worried about having everything at 80hz I think with different sources.
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post #6569 of 6880 Old 05-20-2019, 07:35 PM
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I agree that's what Audyssey is doing (and why you need to boost the sub if it is EQ'd to a curve like I show above in order to put it at the proper level). I don't agree that it has to do that. Many higher level (more expensive) room correction systems have curves like I show above as default or selectable options and they can get the levels correct. The whole "calibrate the system, THEN boost the sub 3-6 db" procedure used by so many is really an Audyssey specific one.

Hi Jon,

Actually, several other systems of automated calibration operate in the same way that Audyssey does, with people needing to boost their subs after running the calibration. And, of course, some of those systems do very little to EQ the bass frequencies.

But, I think you may have missed the point in what I was saying. All systems of room EQ, with which I am familiar, attempt to start with a flat frequency response, and then add curves on top of that flat response. Audyssey is an older form of automated room EQ, and its means of adding a bass curve is DEQ. Newer and more expensive methods of room EQ, such as Dirac, add either the kind of arbitrary house curve to which I was referring earlier, or they offer user-programmable curves similar to what the app is capable of doing now with Audyssey. The arbitrary house curves can be problematical because they are necessarily content, volume, and user-preference specific.

Systems such as Room Perfect and Dirac Live may very well be better suited to some users' preferences than XT-32, but they are also more expensive. Everyone has to pick his poison with respect to room correction, speakers, subs, etc. Sometimes you get more for your money, especially with ID subs. Sometimes you don't, especially with some over-priced name brand subs.

I suspect that the same thing is true with room correction. Once most people get to a certain level of performance, additional gains are more incremental, but cost differences are not. Frankly, adding some sub boost, after running Audyssey, has never seemed like a very big deal to me. Everyone ends-up simply seasoning his bass to his own taste, and as noted over the last couple of pages, the seasoning can vary not only from individual-to-individual, but even with changes in content for the same individual.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #6570 of 6880 Old 05-20-2019, 09:04 PM
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EDIT:

Kind of covered in summary post below

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