"Official" Audyssey thread Part II - Page 220 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6571 of 7070 Old 05-21-2019, 06:04 AM
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For all that were involved in my recent discussion, I'm pretty done with it. Special thanks to @Jon AA @mthomas47 @garygarrison for all the input!

Here is the summary:
I prefer the full range sound of my front 2 Vs what I get when I have have Audyssey engaged and crossing over to the subwoofers for 2 ch music listening. For movie use, I am fine with it.
  • With advice, help from people on this thread, a few experiments/tuning to try and get that better
  • Custom curve to boost up the mains to put back some of what Audyssey lopped off and matching curve for SW
  • Tried 40Hz Xover experiment to shift bass load away from Subs to Mains. It did do that but left a gaping hole at the Xover freq. Back to 80Hz LOL
With the various tweaks and tuning, its good. If I started with this sound, I would not have done anything. Comparing the sound in "Direct" mode Vs Aud Ref with the tuning, 80Hz Xover, it sounds a bit "softer" Less of the "In your Face" Klipsch sound. I would imagine some would prefer it. I kind of like the more impactful sound.

Now I need to listen more and see what I want to leave it at. My gut says I will use the Direct sound mode. This basically leaves the speakers alone. No audyssey curve, no crossover to SW. Just plays the sound to the speakers without messing with anything. If I look at a REW sweep with the Direct Vs Ref, I dont see any big problems that Aud corrected that I would be missing. The peaks and dips are pretty much the same either way. The other advantage is Direct is "easy". No custom curves, tuning. Its simple. It also has no effect at all when watching movies since I can apply Direct only to music input.

Scott
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post #6572 of 7070 Old 05-22-2019, 02:25 AM
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post #6574 of 7070 Old 05-25-2019, 09:30 AM
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Quickie one. After all these very insightful discussions, with the "Small" vs "Large" aspect of the Audyssey setup, what is the best approach when changing this setting? Since it is set that way after the first measurement, is it preferable to set it to "Small" prior making the other mesurements, or it does not matter if it's changed after the whole process? I honestly have no clue. Thanks again.

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post #6575 of 7070 Old 05-25-2019, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by DigitalSelf View Post
Quickie one. After all these very insightful discussions, with the "Small" vs "Large" aspect of the Audyssey setup, what is the best approach when changing this setting? Since it is set that way after the first measurement, is it preferable to set it to "Small" prior making the other mesurements, or it does not matter if it's changed after the whole process? I honestly have no clue. Thanks again.
You can not change any settings during the calibration process, and all settings before the calibration process are not remembered and are set according to the calibration results.

..... Run the calibration process and after you save it change your speaker sizes, levels, distances and crossovers to your preference. (if needed)
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post #6576 of 7070 Old 05-25-2019, 11:17 AM
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Question for the group. I recently added front heights to a 5.1 setup. I had been using the AVRs Audyssey setup but switched to the App and liked the results. So here is the question...the crossovers for my FL, FR, FHR, FHL, SL & SR are all set at 150Hz (KEF T301s, KEF T101 and Orbs for Heights). My Center is a Martin Logan Motion 8 and it gets set at 60Hz. My Sub is a DT Supercube 2000. I obviously want to raise the Center and had been using 100Hz but would I be better off going to 150Hz and have everything match?

Sorry if this is a stupid question.
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post #6577 of 7070 Old 05-25-2019, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LRZNole View Post
Question for the group. I recently added front heights to a 5.1 setup. I had been using the AVRs Audyssey setup but switched to the App and liked the results. So here is the question...the crossovers for my FL, FR, FHR, FHL, SL & SR are all set at 150Hz (KEF T301s, KEF T101 and Orbs for Heights). My Center is a Martin Logan Motion 8 and it gets set at 60Hz. My Sub is a DT Supercube 2000. I obviously want to raise the Center and had been using 100Hz but would I be better off going to 150Hz and have everything match?

Sorry if this is a stupid question.

Try it both ways with a variety of movies and music, directly comparing the two configurations. Include some music that taxes the system a bit (but be careful). Your FL, FR and Center have very similar specs, but we all know we can't trust specs. I suspect your system may be a bit on the low size as far as equipment-safe Sound Pressure Level ("loudness" or "volume") is concerned, so I'd avoid the loudest playback.


How large is your room?


How far away from the speakers do you sit?
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post #6578 of 7070 Old 05-25-2019, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LRZNole View Post
Question for the group. I recently added front heights to a 5.1 setup. I had been using the AVRs Audyssey setup but switched to the App and liked the results. So here is the question...the crossovers for my FL, FR, FHR, FHL, SL & SR are all set at 150Hz (KEF T301s, KEF T101 and Orbs for Heights). My Center is a Martin Logan Motion 8 and it gets set at 60Hz. My Sub is a DT Supercube 2000. I obviously want to raise the Center and had been using 100Hz but would I be better off going to 150Hz and have everything match?

Sorry if this is a stupid question.

Try it both ways with a variety of movies and music, directly comparing the two configurations. Include some music that taxes the system a bit (but be careful). Your FL, FR and Center have very similar specs, but we all know we can't trust specs. I suspect your system may be a bit on the low size as far as equipment-safe Sound Pressure Level ("loudness" or "volume") is concerned, so I'd avoid the loudest playback.


How large is your room?


How far away from the speakers do you sit?
The room is roughly 12’ x 11’ and one end opens up into a larger space. The center listening position is just over 10’ from the C speaker. My AVR is a Denon X2300. I know you can always raise not lower crossovers so I wasn’t sure if it might be better to raise the Martin Logan C from 60Hz to 150 Hz to match the crossovers of the other 6 speakers or if raising it to 100Hz would be better. Wasn’t sure if matching crossovers made any difference. I will try it out both ways.
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post #6579 of 7070 Old 05-26-2019, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LRZNole View Post
The room is roughly 12’ x 11’ and one end opens up into a larger space. The center listening position is just over 10’ from the C speaker. My AVR is a Denon X2300. I know you can always raise not lower crossovers so I wasn’t sure if it might be better to raise the Martin Logan C from 60Hz to 150 Hz to match the crossovers of the other 6 speakers or if raising it to 100Hz would be better. Wasn’t sure if matching crossovers made any difference. I will try it out both ways.

Hi,

I honestly don't think that matching crossovers makes any difference, in general, unless someone can actually hear a difference. In theory, off-loading even more bass to a subwoofer is a good idea, if the subwoofer has plenty of headroom to begin with, and if it can handle the higher bass frequencies without distortion. All subwoofers are bandwidth-limited at both the bottom and the top of their frequency responses. So, they can start to strain at both their upper and lower limits. I think that 150Hz should be fine, and adding another speaker to what the subwoofer is already handling shouldn't make a difference, but I thought it was worth giving you a more complete answer.

The center channel is a little different from the other channels, because it carries nearly all of the dialogue in movies. When people are using a fairly heavy subwoofer boost, which may not be happening in your case, a higher crossover can make voices sound noticeably deeper and more chesty, because the boosted subwoofer is now playing those frequencies. In many cases, that can interfere with dialogue intelligibility. Intuitively, I would expect a 100Hz crossover to sound better for the center channel than a 150Hz crossover. But, you can try both, and the crossovers in between (110 and 120Hz) to determine which crossover actually sounds best to you.

Just as a reminder, a speaker's location in a room will be a primary factor in determining it's low-frequency response. If your Denon set the crossover for the CC much lower than that of your other speakers, it is because the room is boosting the low-frequencies a bit for that speaker--probably due to boundary gain. I would definitely raise the crossover to about 100Hz, in this case, but above that it would just depend on what sounds the best to you.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #6580 of 7070 Old 05-26-2019, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LRZNole View Post
The room is roughly 12’ x 11’ and one end opens up into a larger space. The center listening position is just over 10’ from the C speaker. My AVR is a Denon X2300. I know you can always raise not lower crossovers so I wasn’t sure if it might be better to raise the Martin Logan C from 60Hz to 150 Hz to match the crossovers of the other 6 speakers or if raising it to 100Hz would be better. Wasn’t sure if matching crossovers made any difference. I will try it out both ways.

Hi,

I honestly don't think that matching crossovers makes any difference, in general, unless someone can actually hear a difference. In theory, off-loading even more bass to a subwoofer is a good idea, if the subwoofer has plenty of headroom to begin with, and if it can handle the higher bass frequencies without distortion. All subwoofers are bandwidth-limited at both the bottom and the top of their frequency responses. So, they can start to strain at both their upper and lower limits. I think that 150Hz should be fine, and adding another speaker to what the subwoofer is already handling shouldn't make a difference, but I thought it was worth giving you a more complete answer.

The center channel is a little different from the other channels, because it carries nearly all of the dialogue in movies. When people are using a fairly heavy subwoofer boost, which may not be happening in your case, a higher crossover can make voices sound noticeably deeper and more chesty, because the boosted subwoofer is now playing those frequencies. In many cases, that can interfere with dialogue intelligibility. Intuitively, I would expect a 100Hz crossover to sound better for the center channel than a 150Hz crossover. But, you can try both, and the crossovers in between (110 and 120Hz) to determine which crossover actually sounds best to you.

Just as a reminder, a speaker's location in a room will be a primary factor in determining it's low-frequency response. If your Denon set the crossover for the CC much lower than that of your other speakers, it is because the room is boosting the low-frequencies a bit for that speaker--probably due to boundary gain. I would definitely raise the crossover to about 100Hz, in this case, but above that it would just depend on what sounds the best to you.

Regards,
Mike
Thanks...I will try it out a bit more with the in between settings. I was testing Mad Max Fury Road and at the beginning with the CC at 100Hz it sounded a bit echoey if that makes sense and a little more clean at 150Hz but maybe it was my imagination.

Edit: Actually after more testing the 100Hz for the CC was better. Tried the opening of Fury Road, Fellowship of the Ring and some music and it (at least to me) sounded slightly better.
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post #6581 of 7070 Old 05-26-2019, 01:48 PM
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One dB is usually considered to be one just noticeable difference. Does the one dB bass boost sound appreciably different on your set-up? I'm not doubting your choice, but I would encourage you to try a bit more boost. Of course, a lot depends on your speakers, your room, your mood and your headroom, for that matter.

The way we hear bass is connected to the Sound Pressure Level (SPL, or colloquially, "volume"). For music, for which there is no real reference level, thanks to the knavish behavior of the music recording industry, I usually use a bass tone control boost of +1 to +6, and play the music at what seems to my ears to be "concert level." At my "concert level" DEQ is expected not to be needed, but I can use the tone controls to season to taste.

I paid an electrical engineer audiophile friend to make me a black box that pushes the bass up another 3 dB, if I want it, giving me a total of 9 dB of possible boost in the bass between 80 Hz and about 200 Hz. Of course the tone controls only work with DEQ turned off, and, unfortunately, only affect the Right Front and Left Front channels on most AVRs and AVPs, and do not affect the subwoofer. So, my subwoofer is turned up so that it will "meet" the RF and LF bass elevation at (arbitrarily) the + 9 dB level. That boost forms a practically straight line from about 175Hz down to about 39Hz. Below that, the response rolls off until it tails off at 20 Hz. The crossover to the sub is at 80 Hz. [See Mike's guide to see how to turn up a subwoofer properly. Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences] I almost never use treble boost or cut.

On Monk's Dream, which I'm listening to right now, my "concert level" is about 86 dB with peaks of about 90dB, "C" weighted, "Fast," on my SPL meter (some classical pieces can be much louder, e.g., Fanfare for the Common Man, The Great Gate of Kiev, and Beethoven or Mahler symphonies can peak at 110 dB).

For movies, we have a real reference level, thanks to the movie industry's foresight, and THX rattling their cage (actually, I think lobbying for standards may have gone back to Mike Todd and his sound guy Joseph Kane). I end up playing most movies at 5 to7 dB below reference. My use of the bass control, the black box, and the subwoofer are the same for movies and music.

Now, with music recordings there is a fly in the ointment. It is common practice for record company "suits" to require that he bass be attenuated by anywhere between 3 or 4 dB and, worst case, 25 dB. Some mixers have objected, but that threatens job security. I suppose if a band is "big" enough, they could threaten the "suits." In addition to that travesty, the area between 1K Hz and 5K Hz is sometimes boosted. This is evidentially all part of "the loudness wars." The labels want their songs to be the loudest (without over-recording due to too much bass) when some one twirls the car radio dial, so they get noticed, remembered, and purchased. And, we wouldn't want to overload cheap earbuds with too much bass, would we? For more detail, see Chris A's threads on "The Missing Octave" on the Klipsch Community Forum. Chris has "de-mastered" zillions of bass shy, harsh sounding disks to cure this problem. He uses Audacity (not to be confused with Audyssey), and perhaps other tools. A few disks can't be helped much, e.g., those that were dynamically compressed rather that simply limited (although DBX has some tools one could try).

The problem is the worst with rock, metal, alternative, pop. It does happen with classical and jazz, but a little less often. For some reason, choral music often has the bass practically removed. Anyone who has been fairly close to a large chorus knows how absurd that is.

I haven't the energy (yet) to try de-mastering. For me, using the bass controls, the box, and cranking up the sub are enough ... for now.

Sorry for responding to your straightforward question with a fairly curved answer.
Hi G,

I was on the pages a few days back and I came across some advise you gave me earlier. So anyway I was wondering I use no DEQ plus new speakers which are capable according to the specs so lets give it a try. I boosted the tone control Bass +6 with no treble boost. All I have to say is that's what I have been looking for. It has made all the music come alive especially pre 2000's music. No need to play with or turn up the sub for extra low bass which wasn't recorded back then more than likely. Adding the extra 6db to the towers gives that nice fullness to the above 80hz stuff with the sub blending in nicely instead of the fronts having weak sounding mid bass and bloated bass from the sub when looking for that bit extra. It kind of reminds me of the old days when you only had stereo amp with bass and treble options only. As for movies I left it at +6 but it wasn't as noticeable as with music but didn't cause any harm either. Thanks for the great advice
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post #6582 of 7070 Old 06-01-2019, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by sjm817 View Post
For all that were involved in my recent discussion, I'm pretty done with it. Special thanks to @Jon AA @mthomas47 @garygarrison for all the input!

Here is the summary:
I prefer the full range sound of my front 2 Vs what I get when I have have Audyssey engaged and crossing over to the subwoofers for 2 ch music listening. For movie use, I am fine with it.
  • With advice, help from people on this thread, a few experiments/tuning to try and get that better
  • Custom curve to boost up the mains to put back some of what Audyssey lopped off and matching curve for SW
  • Tried 40Hz Xover experiment to shift bass load away from Subs to Mains. It did do that but left a gaping hole at the Xover freq. Back to 80Hz LOL
With the various tweaks and tuning, its good. If I started with this sound, I would not have done anything. Comparing the sound in "Direct" mode Vs Aud Ref with the tuning, 80Hz Xover, it sounds a bit "softer" Less of the "In your Face" Klipsch sound. I would imagine some would prefer it. I kind of like the more impactful sound.
I'm glad you're getting closer to the sound you want and glad I could help. I do wonder why you haven't tried a 60 hz crossover though. I'm thinking that might be a decent "set it and forget it" setup for you working for both movies and music well.
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post #6583 of 7070 Old 06-01-2019, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
But, I think you may have missed the point in what I was saying. All systems of room EQ, with which I am familiar, attempt to start with a flat frequency response, and then add curves on top of that flat response.
Yes, I'm not seeing any distinction that makes a difference here. The software has to correct to a curve, whether that's a flat line or not seems rather meaningless. The Audyssey Reference curve is not flat on the top, there's no reason it needs to be on the bottom.
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The arbitrary house curves can be problematical because they are necessarily content, volume, and user-preference specific.
I agree completely and describe above some of the many variables that will cause different users with different rooms, speakers, use of DEQ to end up with different preferred curves. However, I do think aiming for the "middle of the bell curve" as a starting point may help users get the desired results more easily. And, especially after adding Atmos speakers, I and many others are finding the way the DEQ boosts the surrounds and rear height speakers less acceptable and are toning down the use of it (Ref level -10, -15, etc instead of 0) or not using it at all which calls for more bass boost in the base curve.

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Frankly, adding some sub boost, after running Audyssey, has never seemed like a very big deal to me.
Me neither, when that's all I could do. The point I've been trying to make is that now with the App, we have the ability to do something that may be better for many systems.



The issue with simply adding some sub boost after the Reference calibration is the overlap you get in the crossover region. Your 80 hz crossover point becomes a ~100 hz crossover, depending upon how much the sub is boosted. This means the sub will be playing a large amount of the lower mid-bass. Some subs sound great doing that I'm sure, but many do not. In many systems, the mains playing that will sound better, especially with music as the subs at 100+ hz don't sound as "musical." I think this is one of the major reasons so many users still listen to music in "pure direct mode"--their main speakers simply sound better playing that lower mid-bass than their sub does, even if they're giving up some on the bottom end when they do it.


Using the method I describe above, you can have a base curve with some amount of base boost, but if the curves and levels match at the crossover region between the subs and mains, the actual crossover point will be closer to where you put it and the main speakers will be playing most of the content immediately above that.



This was simply not possible with Audyssey before the App.
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post #6584 of 7070 Old 06-02-2019, 04:10 PM
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The issue with simply adding some sub boost after the Reference calibration is the overlap you get in the crossover region. Your 80 hz crossover point becomes a ~100 hz crossover, depending upon how much the sub is boosted. This means the sub will be playing a large amount of the lower mid-bass. Some subs sound great doing that I'm sure, but many do not. In many systems, the mains playing that will sound better, especially with music as the subs at 100+ hz don't sound as "musical." I think this is one of the major reasons so many users still listen to music in "pure direct mode"--their main speakers simply sound better playing that lower mid-bass than their sub does, even if they're giving up some on the bottom end when they do it.
I’m confused. On my Denon 3500, if I only boost my subwoofer using ONLY the “Channel Level Adjust” feature accessible using the “Option” button. How would just increasing the gain/volume just for the subwoofer effect my crossovers on the other speaker channels?

HDTV: Panasonic P55VT50 Plasma
AVR: Denon X3500H
SPEAKERS: Ohm (mains), Chane 2.4 (center), Rythmik F12G (sub), DefTech ProMonitor 80 (sats)
MEDIA PLAYER: Oppo BD83
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post #6585 of 7070 Old 06-03-2019, 03:31 AM
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Technically, it won't affect the response of the main speaker--it'll just drown it out to a higher frequency. When you select the crossover point in the receiver, it rolls off the sub and main speaker and theoretically they should "cross" (play the same volume) at that frequency. That only happens when the levels of both are the same. When you boost the sub, it and the main speaker still roll off at the same points, but the sub has a "head start" in SPL so it continues to play louder than the main speaker above the crossover point that was set.


Pics are worth 1000 words.... Here are a few measurements I took a while back as an example that can demonstrate this. This is my left front channel only, playing the same signal for all measurements. (Smoothed 1/3 octave to make them easier to read.)



Here is a calibration corrected to the standard Reference curve (flat) but with the sub boosted 6 db afterward:





The black curve is the main speaker set to Large. The brown curve is the sub only--main speaker set to small, crossover set to 250 and main speaker unplugged.


As you can see, at 80 hz the sub has a 6 db head start on the main speaker in level. So when you apply an 80 hz crossover, this is what you get:





At 80 hz, the sub is still playing significantly louder than the main speaker and they don't actually "cross over" until nearly 100 hz. So the sub is playing as loud or louder nearly all the way to 100 hz.


Contrast that with this:





Here I used the method described above to get a 6 db boost on the bottom, correcting both the main speaker and the sub to the same curve and matching the levels. As you can see, the levels are matched pretty well from about 60-140 hz. A crossover setting anywhere in there should work well and not change the shape of the overall curve--it's a matter of what sounds better at what frequencies--the sub or the speaker.


With an 80 hz cross over setting as an example:





The actual point at which they cross lands almost exactly on 80 hz. By 100 hz, the main speaker is playing 6 db louder than the sub.


Even though the two overall response curves are nearly identical and the overall tonal balance is nearly identical, they sound quite a bit different--mostly noticeable with music. Even though my current front speakers aren't very big and don't dig very deep, they are sensitive and capable of high output--by 100 hz they are rockin'. They simply sound more "impactful" in that range than my current sub which gives a softer, smoother sound in that range.


It won't be the same answer for every system--some people will have subs that sound better than mine at higher frequencies and/or have main speakers that can't play very loudly without distortion at 100 hz...in that case the method I describe above still works just fine--just set the crossover to a higher point--100, 110 hz or whatever sounds the best.



But the biggest benefit is for those with speakers that can play well and sound good to lower frequencies (80 or lower crossover setting) at music listening volume. This allows them to set the crossover lower without removing the bottom end bass boost because it's built into the curve of the main speaker as well. If the main speaker is corrected flat with the Audyssey reference curve and the sub is boosted, lowering the crossover removes a lot of bass and probably won't sound as good. My speakers weren't the best example for this as 80 is about as low as I'd want to go with them. Mains that will maintain the target curve down to 30-40 hz (instead of falling away significantly at 60 hz) would have made for a better graphic example.
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post #6586 of 7070 Old 06-03-2019, 08:16 AM
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^^^

+1

That's an excellent and helpful analysis! It's also a good visual demonstration of why cascading crossovers can be so effective, especially with larger subwoofer boosts. By doubling the slope above the selected crossover, listeners can still enjoy a larger subwoofer boost and a smoother transition between subwoofers and speakers. As a general rule, cascading crossovers are probably most effective for people with speakers capable of going well below 100Hz with good volume and no distortion. I have personally found cascading crossovers to be most effective with 80Hz crossovers.

Anyone interested in pursuing the idea of limiting subwoofer boosts above the crossover point, with the increased clarity and punchier mid-bass that usually results from that, is encouraged to read the following section of the Guide:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...nces.html#IIIC

In fact, with Jon's permission, and with appropriate attribution, I may add his analysis to that section of the Guide. I think it might be very helpful for other readers to see the graphic examples he has shared in his post.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #6587 of 7070 Old 06-03-2019, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon AA View Post
I'm glad you're getting closer to the sound you want and glad I could help. I do wonder why you haven't tried a 60 hz crossover though. I'm thinking that might be a decent "set it and forget it" setup for you working for both movies and music well.
I was finishing up some room treatment so put this aside for a bit. I just got back to it and seem to be having a problem.

I did a new calibration and modified the L, R and SW as you suggested with Ratbuddy. It looks like the LR takes but not the SW. I see the modified curves for Front and SW in the app. They both look as expected with the 6dB boost but REW does not show the SW boost working.

You can see below that the red curve is the base curve. No SW boost or curve mod. Green is the new curve. The mains get the boost but I dont see anything in the SW range. The blue is adding 6dB of boost to the SW. All tests are small LR 80Hz xover.

Any ideas?

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post #6588 of 7070 Old 06-03-2019, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by sjm817 View Post
I was finishing up some room treatment so put this aside for a bit. I just got back to it and seem to be having a problem.

I did a new calibration and modified the L, R and SW as you suggested with Ratbuddy. It looks like the LR takes but not the SW. I see the modified curves for Front and SW in the app. They both look as expected with the 6dB boost but REW does not show the SW boost working.

You can see below that the red curve is the base curve. No SW boost or curve mod. Green is the new curve. The mains get the boost but I dont see anything in the SW range. The blue is adding 6dB of boost to the SW. All tests are small LR 80Hz xover.

Any ideas?

Look at the app after results in "Room Correction Results". All target curves are level aligned to reference after the target curve is applied. If you add a boost to the target curve, view the after results to verify if your boost has become a cut.. If you want your channel to not be level aligned, use the trims too increase the level not the curve editor.
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post #6589 of 7070 Old 06-03-2019, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j_at_audyssey View Post
Look at the app after results in "Room Correction Results". All target curves are level aligned to reference after the target curve is applied. If you add a boost to the target curve, view the after results to verify if your boost has become a cut.. If you want your channel to not be level aligned, use the trims too increase the level not the curve editor.
Bingo! The sub boost is actually a cut.

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post #6590 of 7070 Old 06-03-2019, 12:54 PM
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Any ideas?
Yes. Just as j_at_audyssey said, I think all you need to do is raise your sub level 6 db. Remember for the sub, you basically need to put the "boost" in two places--the curve and the level--in order for this to work.


When you put it in the curve like this:





Audyssey will shape to that curve, but lower the level back down to give you an overall volume from the sub that matches the overall volume of the mains like so:





So, when you put 6 db of boost in the bottom end of the curve, you need to also raise the trim level ~6db to put that curve where you want it.


It's a little extra effort but it's a good idea to verify things match by measuring the sub and main separately like I did in the 3rd pic above (The black curve is the main speaker set to Large. The brown curve is the sub only--main speaker set to small, crossover set to 250 and main speaker unplugged.). To get the lines to overlay perfectly you may need to fine-tune the level a bit, but 6 db should put you close as a starting point.


Edit: Looks like you got it before I could post!
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post #6591 of 7070 Old 06-03-2019, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
That's an excellent and helpful analysis!
Thanks Mike!


Quote:
In fact, with Jon's permission, and with appropriate attribution, I may add his analysis to that section of the Guide. I think it might be very helpful for other readers to see the graphic examples he has shared in his post.
That would be no problem at all, feel free. It might be helpful for me to add the settings that went with those measurements for the modified setup:


Main Speaker:


Control point--Frequency, db:
20 +6
55 +6
160 0
400 0













Main speaker level unchanged from where Audyssey sets it.


Subwoofer:


Control Points:
20 +6
55 +6
160 0








Subwoofer Level increased 6 db from where Audyssey sets it.
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post #6592 of 7070 Old 06-03-2019, 04:18 PM
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Thanks @j_at_audyssey and @Jon AA I plugged all that in and now I see the results I expected. Did a bit of initial listening and it sounds good. Like Jon AA posted, now it doesnt sound like my subs are drowning out my mains in the mid bass. The 6 dB boost may be a bit much so may bring that down some.
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post #6593 of 7070 Old 06-03-2019, 06:03 PM
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I'm getting app envy.


Our pre-pro (AVP) is incompatible, but does NOT need replacing.


Besides, OPPO is going to stop making players, so when ours conks, I'll have to do another mountain of research before replacing it. Plus the $$$.



Besides, Panasonic is going to stop making projectors, so when ours conks, I'll have to do another mountain of research before replacing it. Plus the $$$


Besides, our mic preamp conked, so if I ever want to run REW again, I'll have to do another mountain of research on using the USB method.


Wait! Everything sounds fine, especially now that my ears got cleaned out, and everything looks fine down to every glistening pore, so ... there .... I'm safe!
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post #6594 of 7070 Old 06-03-2019, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by sjm817 View Post
The 6 dB boost may be a bit much so may bring that down some.
Certainly, 6 db was just an example. Now that you have the process down, you should be able to experiment with 2, 4, etc, very quickly and easily just by uploading different files to see which sounds the best to you.
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post #6595 of 7070 Old 06-04-2019, 05:01 PM
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I have a quick question -- perhaps requiring a not-so-quick reply -- about the midrange compensation settings, in the MultEQ app. Do they act a bit like bass compensation, by boosting midranges at lower volumes, while applying a roll-off at higher ones? The app unfortunately, does not seem to provide a lot of details about that, especially graphically. Thanks again!

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post #6596 of 7070 Old 06-04-2019, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by DigitalSelf View Post
I have a quick question -- perhaps requiring a not-so-quick reply -- about the midrange compensation settings, in the MultEQ app. Do they act a bit like bass compensation, by boosting midranges at lower volumes, while applying a roll-off at higher ones? The app unfortunately, does not seem to provide a lot of details about that, especially graphically. Thanks again!
If you toggle the MRC off/on, you will see that it actually cuts the midrange at all levels.
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post #6597 of 7070 Old 06-07-2019, 06:11 AM
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post #6598 of 7070 Old 06-07-2019, 07:03 PM
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I apologize in advance, as Im sure this has been asked many times, but I cant find an answer. I just got a Denon X3500 and ran audessey a few times, and no matter how low I set my subwoofers, It is maxing out the correction to -12. I have a 5.1 (kind of 5.2) system. My fronts are Def Tech BP9020s and have the LFE inputs connected on them (split on one of the SW channels), with a Def Tech center channel, and some small rears. I am also running a Klipsch standalone SW. I dont know if the Def Tech towers are confusing the audessey or what is going on. But I cant seem to get the SW to stop maxing out in the calibration. However, the audio seems very thin with these settings. Any ideas?

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post #6599 of 7070 Old 06-08-2019, 01:16 PM
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I apologize in advance, as Im sure this has been asked many times, but I cant find an answer. I just got a Denon X3500 and ran audessey a few times, and no matter how low I set my subwoofers, It is maxing out the correction to -12. I have a 5.1 (kind of 5.2) system. My fronts are Def Tech BP9020s and have the LFE inputs connected on them (split on one of the SW channels), with a Def Tech center channel, and some small rears. I am also running a Klipsch standalone SW. I dont know if the Def Tech towers are confusing the audessey or what is going on. But I cant seem to get the SW to stop maxing out in the calibration. However, the audio seems very thin with these settings. Any ideas?

Try not to use the Def Tech BP9020s in the subwoofer chain, but let them work as front L&Rs, only. Make sure you only hook-up the Klipsch to the subwoofer output of the Denon and nothing else. Rerun Audyssey. I'm 100% confident you won't get a maxout on the sub channel this time. Report back please.
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post #6600 of 7070 Old 06-08-2019, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by marlbombs View Post
I apologize in advance, as Im sure this has been asked many times, but I cant find an answer. I just got a Denon X3500 and ran audessey a few times, and no matter how low I set my subwoofers, It is maxing out the correction to -12. I have a 5.1 (kind of 5.2) system. My fronts are Def Tech BP9020s and have the LFE inputs connected on them (split on one of the SW channels), with a Def Tech center channel, and some small rears. I am also running a Klipsch standalone SW. I dont know if the Def Tech towers are confusing the audessey or what is going on. But I cant seem to get the SW to stop maxing out in the calibration. However, the audio seems very thin with these settings. Any ideas?
The 9020's have 8" woofers in them and probably roll off around 40+ hz...really no reason to use them as LFE if you have a standalone subwoofer. They will play and sound better if you free up the LFE and send only to the separate subwoofer. The "woofer" part of your towers will still play the mid bass frequencies, and if you have them set to small/80hz crossover in the AVR, they will still play down to 40hz (about -6dB at 60hz and about -12dB at 40hz).

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