"Official" Audyssey thread Part II - Page 224 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6691 of 7030 Old 07-06-2019, 02:28 PM
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The graphs in my former post didn't come through, so here is a second try.



Fingers crossed.



No luck.



The deep bass boost and treble attenuation used in Chris A's de-mastering of one particular CD involved a deep bass boost, 20 to 100 Hz, and a slight decline above.


Although different CDs & films take different EQ, I have found that, EQing by hand and ear, rather than using Chris's superior method, many take a highly similar EQ, with my mostly classical CDs/SACDs and Blu-ray movies. With new, clean recordings, though, I never attenuate the treble. "Never? Well, hardly ever!"
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post #6692 of 7030 Old 07-07-2019, 06:48 AM
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Speakers out of phase.

Hi, i have 2 Kef T101 speakers (not Dolby Enabled) behind the screen and they bounce from the backwall to the ceiling to the MLP, and this works great.
I use them as Front Height and have this way a great WAF

Only "problem" is that after a Audyssey run they are set out of phase.
Also when i use them as Dolby Enabled (even they are not) still Audyssey will "see" them as out of phase.
When i use them above the screen as "normal" height speakers, all is ok, in phase.

So should i leave them as Audyssey sets them, out of phase, or must i connect hem "wrong" so Audyssey will give a in phase setting ?

(and no, i do not want to use them as normal Height speakers, in sight, this behind the screen is the only way i can use them)
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post #6693 of 7030 Old 07-07-2019, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post
Speakers out of phase.

Hi, i have 2 Kef T101 speakers (not Dolby Enabled) behind the screen and they bounce from the backwall to the ceiling to the MLP, and this works great.
I use them as Front Height and have this way a great WAF

Only "problem" is that after a Audyssey run they are set out of phase.
Also when i use them as Dolby Enabled (even they are not) still Audyssey will "see" them as out of phase.
When i use them above the screen as "normal" height speakers, all is ok, in phase.

So should i leave them as Audyssey sets them, out of phase, or must i connect hem "wrong" so Audyssey will give a in phase setting ?

(and no, i do not want to use them as normal Height speakers, in sight, this behind the screen is the only way i can use them)

Hi,

If you like the way they sound the way you have them, then I would just ignore Audyssey's out-of-phase warning, and tell it to proceed with the calibration.

Just to be clear, Audyssey is not setting those speakers out-of-phase. It has no mechanism for doing that. It is simply recognizing them as out-of-phase. Those out-of-phase warnings can erroneously occur occasionally, even with speakers which are absolutely wired and positioned correctly. Just ignore the notification, in this case, and proceed. If you like the final result, that's really all that matters.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #6694 of 7030 Old 07-07-2019, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
The graphs in my former post didn't come through, so here is a second try.



Fingers crossed.



No luck.



The deep bass boost and treble attenuation used in Chris A's de-mastering of one particular CD involved a deep bass boost, 20 to 100 Hz, and a slight decline above.


Although different CDs & films take different EQ, I have found that, EQing by hand and ear, rather than using Chris's superior method, many take a highly similar EQ, with my mostly classical CDs/SACDs and Blu-ray movies. With new, clean recordings, though, I never attenuate the treble. "Never? Well, hardly ever!"
Thank you Gary for detailed responses. "Loudness wars" has corrupted many source materials but I thought they were restricted to POP music. For rest, most control rooms have been set up with neutral speakers like KEF and Revel. But I may be wrong. Let me read and think about that some more.
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post #6695 of 7030 Old 07-07-2019, 10:32 AM
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Speaker Level Test has Very Low Volume

After Audyssey Room calibration, when I use the Speaker Level test,"Setup Menu/Speakers/Manual Setup/Levels/Test Tone Start/Test Tone", I cannot hear any audio (pink noise) from any speaker unless the volume is turned up to 50 on the reciever (Denon X4500h) and 60 for the subwoofers and then still its a very very low volume. Its been like this as far as I can remember.

Is this normal?
Thanks for any insight!
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post #6696 of 7030 Old 07-07-2019, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon AA View Post
Yes, the boost is in the file but the speakers aren't capable of 20 Hz so Audyssey doesn't try. I explain it a couple posts above. If running a house curve with some amount of bass boost, I don't try to tailor each curve to the capabilities of each speaker--I just add the boost all the way to 20 Hz and let Audyssey figure out the appropriate rolloff for each speaker. Much easier that way and it seems to do it right.
@Jon AA

How do you adjust precisely with your fingers with the app in a mobile device. It was a frustrating experience for me that I gave up.
Also, is your center, surround and height speakers set to match the fronts curve?
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post #6697 of 7030 Old 07-08-2019, 01:46 AM
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Something there is that doesn't love a quote ... not now, anyway. The forum won't let me quote you,@SouthernCA.


It's my understanding that the Loudness Wars affect practices -- compression, limiting, frequency response (especially in regard to bass cuts) almost all of the time in Pop, some of the time in Rock/Metal, and more rarely in jazz and classical. Some critics have suspected that even audiophile labels are involved. Re-masters of some Leonard Bernstein recordings are bass-shy and more compressed than the earlier versions. This would no doubt offend the man who labeled a passage in On the Waterfront, "Presto Barbaro"
. I hope I've misunderstood, and this practice is much rarer than I think.



The acoustical signature of control rooms vary widely. Keith Barnes posted a composite graph on this thread (or its predecessor, Part I) that showed just how varied they are. If you are into searching, it is amazing to behold.



KEF and Revel may well be rather neutral in frequency response, but sometimes I wonder what that means in practice, when the Yg Sophia 1.3, advertised as "the world's best speaker" @$100,000 (in 2013) has, in John Atkinson's listening room, a -9, +3.5 dB (+/- 6.25, if you like) 20 to 15K Hz, and two of my very favorite loudspeakers in the world (which will remain nameless) are very uneven in frequency response.
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post #6698 of 7030 Old 07-08-2019, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prsman View Post
After Audyssey Room calibration, when I use the Speaker Level test,"Setup Menu/Speakers/Manual Setup/Levels/Test Tone Start/Test Tone", I cannot hear any audio (pink noise) from any speaker unless the volume is turned up to 50 on the reciever (Denon X4500h) and 60 for the subwoofers and then still its a very very low volume. Its been like this as far as I can remember.

Is this normal?
Thanks for any insight!
I believe that on the Absolute volume scale "80" is Reference ("0" on the Relative scale). The test tones from the AVR are output at -30dB below Reference. With your MV setting of "50", the tones should be at just about 40dB. The noise floor of most rooms is usually around 45-50dB.

Taking all the above into account, I am not surprised at all that you have a hard time hearing the tones at those MV levels.
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post #6699 of 7030 Old 07-08-2019, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by kaydee6 View Post
How do you adjust precisely with your fingers with the app in a mobile device. It was a frustrating experience for me that I gave up.
I don't blame you. Luckily a member here was gracious enough to write a free program to help with changing the file: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...app-files.html


I simply type the values in. Makes it fast and easy to do and you can get it exactly the same every time.

Quote:
Also, is your center, surround and height speakers set to match the fronts curve?
Short answer, yes. That's the most simple easy way to go if all your speakers are similar. It only takes a couple of minutes typing them into Ratbuddy to get them all exactly the same. The curves you get in the app will look different, particularly in the bass region, but the goal is to have the overall curves all look the same after crossing over with the sub.



If you're using different types of speakers, especially if they have significantly different directivity, you may want to try some different things as they may sound notably different even when corrected to the same curve, but that's getting into the weeds a little bit and mostly affects higher frequencies--not the bass frequencies I was talking about in prior posts.
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post #6700 of 7030 Old 07-08-2019, 05:41 PM
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@Jon AA ,

Thanks for the reply. I manage to dial them in with my finger. God bless my finger..wonder what the designers of the app is thinking!?

My initial listening is very positive. I have dialed in according to your numbers and perhaps to the increased gain at 55hz of the LCR, the bass go much louder than when I had with DEQ turn on at ref=0dB (default reference curve). I hear much more low frequency action from the LCR now. Bass for music sounded just about right. I will assess for a longer period to be certain but for now it's certainly got me excited.
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post #6701 of 7030 Old 07-09-2019, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I believe that on the Absolute volume scale "80" is Reference ("0" on the Relative scale). The test tones from the AVR are output at -30dB below Reference. With your MV setting of "50", the tones should be at just about 40dB. The noise floor of most rooms is usually around 45-50dB.

Taking all the above into account, I am not surprised at all that you have a hard time hearing the tones at those MV levels.
Thanks. The volume is started out so low I suppose for safety reasons and I just need to turn it up to clearly hear the tones. Thanks the explanation.
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post #6702 of 7030 Old 07-09-2019, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
The acoustical signature of control rooms vary widely. Keith Barnes posted a composite graph on this thread (or its predecessor, Part I) that showed just how varied they are. If you are into searching, it is amazing to behold.
If anyone finds this, can you post a link? I'd love to see that.
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post #6703 of 7030 Old 07-09-2019, 10:59 AM
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Shouldn't Audyssey Roll off Sub to blend with Mains?

After a room EQ with Audyssey using MultiEQ, and inspecting the sub results, there does not seem to be a rolloff to blend with the rest of the system. If the mains are set to 80hz low end should not the subs blend in at 80hz with a rolloff? Is this something that needs to be done manually using the curve editor of MultiEQ? Ive attached the Audyssey results for the sub and it doesnt seem to have a roll off. It just stops where Audyssey quiets measuring. Can provide some insight for me here?
thank you
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post #6704 of 7030 Old 07-09-2019, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by prsman View Post
After a room EQ with Audyssey using MultiEQ, and inspecting the sub results, there does not seem to be a rolloff to blend with the rest of the system. If the mains are set to 80hz low end should not the subs blend in at 80hz with a rolloff? Is this something that needs to be done manually using the curve editor of MultiEQ? Ive attached the Audyssey results for the sub and it doesnt seem to have a roll off. It just stops where Audyssey quiets measuring. Can provide some insight for me here?
thank you

Something definitely seems wrong here but dunno what. The red AFTER graph shows the sub rolling off at 300 Hz!! That should not be the case when selecting a crossover in the AVR at 80 Hz! Care to check your AVR's setup again?
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post #6705 of 7030 Old 07-09-2019, 11:30 AM
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The results show the basic response with no crossover applied. It's fine. For each speaker set to small, the sub will have the rolloff applied at the appropriate frequency. You just can't see that in the app, you need to measure it if curious.
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post #6706 of 7030 Old 07-09-2019, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Jon AA View Post
The results show the basic response with no crossover applied. It's fine. For each speaker set to small, the sub will have the rolloff applied at the appropriate frequency. You just can't see that in the app, you need to measure it if curious.
Im unclear on your message, "For each speaker set to small the sub will have the rolloff applied at the appropriate frequency". If I have the Front set to large, that wide open right?, they go down to 35hz. What should the sub curve look like to blend then, does it roll off at 35hz? If set to small and 80hz should the sub roll off at 80hz?.
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post #6707 of 7030 Old 07-09-2019, 12:23 PM
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If your speaker is set to large, the sub won't play at all so it's curve doesn't matter. If you set it to small and 80 hz, yes, the sub will rolloff centered at 80 hz--but there's no way to see that in the app.
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post #6708 of 7030 Old 07-09-2019, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by prsman View Post
Im unclear on your message, "For each speaker set to small the sub will have the rolloff applied at the appropriate frequency". If I have the Front set to large, that wide open right?, they go down to 35hz. What should the sub curve look like to blend then, does it roll off at 35hz? If set to small and 80hz should the sub roll off at 80hz?.
As Jon mentioned, if you would actually like to use your subwoofer, all speakers must be set to "Small" (read: Bass Management On). With your mains set to "Large" (read: Bass Management Off), the only thing that will be sent to your subs is the LFE channel in 5.1/7.1 content.

FYI, those graphs you see of your "result" in the Audyssey app (or under Audyssey on the AVR) are not actual measurements of the response...they are only a rough estimate of your post-calibration results. As someone else mentioned, if you want to see your actual response, start with the REW link in my sig.
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post #6709 of 7030 Old 07-09-2019, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon AA View Post
If your speaker is set to large, the sub won't play at all so it's curve doesn't matter. If you set it to small and 80 hz, yes, the sub will rolloff centered at 80 hz--but there's no way to see that in the app.
Thanks, I understand. I try different settings, set the fronts to small and then listen my reference ATMOS demos to assess the goodness of stuff.
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post #6710 of 7030 Old 07-09-2019, 10:14 PM
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@SouthernCA,


Your reply appeared on my AOL notice, but not on the AVS forum itself, at least not on my screen. Here is the version of what you said that appeared on my email:


"Yes. Agree that all control rooms are not set exactly the same and there are no standards. But that problem can not be fixed by any one frequency response set up at our end. Not flat and not reference or any other. It needs to be adjusted for each song or album. "Circle of confusion" in deed."


I took a class at San Francisco State University called "Discover your Ears," in which we visited virtually every sound studio in the San Francisco Bay Area. All of the studios seemed to sound different, and not all "good," IMO. The engineers weren't under pressure to create a signature sound back then, as far as we knew, and we didn't hear about shoving the sound up against the full scale ceiling via compression &/or bass cuts. They just sat around with the talent and discussed the mix over wine, cheese, and other substances from nature's bounty. Well, that happened in some places, with some groups, anyway.



I agree that the EQ needs to be set for each selection, or album -- by ear -- if we have the energy to do so. The funny thing is ... once I ended up finding that a sort of average EQ, involving post-Audyssey bass boost, was acceptable, if not right on, for virtually all Blu-rays, and most SACDs & CDs, and was virtually always better than no post-Audyssey correction, I lulled into a warm and fuzzy complacency about the whole thing. Having the center line EQ in force as my default usually satisfies me. I'll change it if I get a CD that needs it. Two or three Blu-rays have required a change, including one -- How the West Was Won -- that required extraordinarily odd EQ.



"Circle of Confusion" was the name of the photography club at my high school.

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Are Speaker Levels Operator or Audyssey Determined?

I read the Denon 4500h manual and Im left with the impression that the operator needs to set the levels at each speaker using the Speaker Level Test or"Setup Menu/Speakers/Manual Setup/Levels/Test Tone Start/Test Tone".
Is the volume balance or levels a manual adjustment and not performed by Audyssey?


Ive always felt the back and side rears were always too loud and trimmed them lower using the Denon with Option/Channel Level Adjust.
So is this level or volume setting I need to do manually as part of the Audyssey setup?


Thanks for any insight!

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post #6712 of 7030 Old 07-10-2019, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prsman View Post
I read the Denon 4500h manual and Im left with the impression that the operator needs to set the levels at each speaker using the Speaker Level Test or"Setup Menu/Speakers/Manual Setup/Levels/Test Tone Start/Test Tone".
Is the volume balance or levels a manual adjustment and not performed by Audyssey?


Ive always felt the back and side rears were always too loud and trimmed them lower using the Denon with Option/Channel Level Adjust.
So is this level or volume setting I need to do manually as part of the Audyssey setup?


Thanks for any insight!

Speaker channel levels (including subwoofer/s) are automatically set by Audyssey MultEQ during the setup session, namely from the first mic position at MLP (Main Listening Position). MultiEQ does a really good job for level matching all speakers in the system, so there is really no need to re-adjust them after the setup is finished. Some like to turn up the subwoofer level a bit to taste by a couple of dBs afterwards.
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post #6713 of 7030 Old 07-10-2019, 03:00 PM
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Speaker channel levels (including subwoofer/s) are automatically set by Audyssey .
Im a bit dissapointed to hear that really because the rear and back channels are too loud after Audyssey calibration. I even have the microphone 3/4 the way in the back of the room or closest to the rear speakers during the calibration. I need to back off the volume 6-9db from where Audyssey put them. Why do you think that is?
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post #6714 of 7030 Old 07-10-2019, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by prsman View Post
Im a bit dissapointed to hear that really because the rear and back channels are too loud after Audyssey calibration. I even have the microphone 3/4 the way in the back of the room or closest to the rear speakers during the calibration. I need to back off the volume 6-9db from where Audyssey put them. Why do you think that is?

Wow! 6-9 dBs seems like something out of the extraordinary. What program materials are you listening to? Movies? Music? Or game?
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post #6715 of 7030 Old 07-10-2019, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by prsman View Post
Im a bit dissapointed to hear that really because the rear and back channels are too loud after Audyssey calibration. I even have the microphone 3/4 the way in the back of the room or closest to the rear speakers during the calibration. I need to back off the volume 6-9db from where Audyssey put them. Why do you think that is?
I might suggest reading up on the recommended Audyssey mic placements if you haven’t, as well as alternate “closer mic” placements. Based on you saying: “I even have the microphone 3/4 the way in the back of the room or closest to the rear speakers during the calibration.” That might be an issue.

HDTV: Panasonic P55VT50 Plasma
AVR: Denon X3500H
SPEAKERS: Ohm (mains), Chane 2.4 (center), Rythmik F12G (sub), DefTech ProMonitor 80 (sats)
MEDIA PLAYER: Oppo BD83
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post #6716 of 7030 Old 07-10-2019, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by prsman View Post
Im a bit dissapointed to hear that really because the rear and back channels are too loud after Audyssey calibration. I even have the microphone 3/4 the way in the back of the room or closest to the rear speakers during the calibration. I need to back off the volume 6-9db from where Audyssey put them. Why do you think that is?
My guess is you have Dynamic Eq turned on. Turn that off.

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post #6717 of 7030 Old 07-10-2019, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Mactavish View Post
I might suggest reading up on the recommended Audyssey mic placements if you haven’t, as well as alternate “closer mic” placements. Based on you saying: “I even have the microphone 3/4 the way in the back of the room or closest to the rear speakers during the calibration.” That might be an issue.
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My guess is you have Dynamic Eq turned on. Turn that off.

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100% movies. I thought having the mic closer to the rear speakers will help Audyssey reduce the volume there. Why would that mic location be an issue as that position is the main listening position.

What ive read on Audyssem mic position, other then the pattern of 2ft distance around the MLP had do do with distance from a wall and at the MLP its 8 ft from the wall. Ive attached a diagram of the mic positioning. Do you think since the MLP is near a corner thats a problems? Why the 2ft spacing for each EQ measurement? Is my case one where I should place the mics differently?
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Last edited by prsman; 07-10-2019 at 04:53 PM.
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post #6718 of 7030 Old 07-10-2019, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by prsman View Post
100% movies. I thought having the mic closer to the rear speakers will help Audyssey reduce the volume there. Why would that mic location be an issue as that position is the main listening position.

What ive read on Audyssem mic position, other then the pattern of 2ft distance around the MLP had do do with distance from a wall and at the MLP its 8 ft from the wall. Ive attached a diagram of the mic positioning. Do you think since the MLP is near a corner thats a problems? Why the 2ft spacing for each EQ measurement? Is my case one where I should place the mics differently?
You may just be the kind of person who prefers the sound to be more in front of you. If you think the surrounds and rears are too loud, then they are too loud for you. Turn them down to your preference.

I'm kind of the same way. I have my surrounds at a position somewhat forward of the main listening position. it's less immersive than having the surrounds to my sides or even slightly behind me, as many people use. But I like that. To me, it actually connects better to the sound on the screen. When too much of the sound is beside or behind me, it seems ... artificial somehow? I'm not sure how to say it.

Also, I have some hearing loss in my right ear. So I have to boost the volume on my surround right speaker to make the system sound balanced for me. It's a little weird for guests who visit, but I can always even it out for them when they're over.

Anyway, feel free to mess with the channel levels. But I wouldn't do it in the Audyssey setup. It's much faster to change (and follow up with additional adjustments later) through hitting the Option button on your remote, and then adjusting the channel volume on the next volume.
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post #6719 of 7030 Old 07-10-2019, 09:06 PM
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You may just be the kind of person who prefers the sound to be more in front of you. .
Probably. I do have the auto EQ on so Ill try that too, otherwise Ill just make level adjustments like you suggested.

Last edited by prsman; 07-10-2019 at 09:09 PM.
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post #6720 of 7030 Old 07-11-2019, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by prsman View Post
Im a bit dissapointed to hear that really because the rear and back channels are too loud after Audyssey calibration. I even have the microphone 3/4 the way in the back of the room or closest to the rear speakers during the calibration. I need to back off the volume 6-9db from where Audyssey put them. Why do you think that is?
DEQ adds about 1.1dB per -5dB of the master volume (relative to reference 0). Since I listen to most of my movies at -10dB, after Audyssey I adjust the Surrounds and Top Rear to -2dB..
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