"Official" Audyssey thread Part II - Page 225 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6721 of 6878 Old 07-11-2019, 02:40 PM
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Multi XT32 / SUQ EQ HT

I have a pair of SVS PB-1000s with opposing corner placement. My AVR is the Denon AVR-X6200W, which has has dual sub-outs and Audyssey Multi-XT32 and SUBEQ-HT. Recently it had to go in for service and I was given a loaner Integra DTR-40.6, which only has one sub out and "lesser" Audyssey product. With the loaner I was kind of blown away with what I thought I was always lacking, some impactful bass. The dialogue of deep voices had that true cinematic sound and the action was chest pounding. Music had life.

I have done a lot of research and applied the 80hz frequency across all speakers, mic placement patterns...etc. The room is carpeted, closed, and acoustically treated with 7 2x4' panels and three large bas traps.

The main differences, Audyssey aside, was the Integra only has one sub out and I used a y-splitter for the two subs. With the , Denon I always used the two sub outs to utilize SUQEQ and matched each sub to -75dB and Audyssey always applied a high negative trim, -10+-.05dB. So I thought I would experiment using the only one sub out on the Denon and using the Y-splitter for the two subs. Both subs still individually matched to -75dB (did not adjust the gain on the subs at all), Audyssey only applied a -3.0dB correction. I haven't watched any movies yet, but initially music sounds better, not sure as good as the Integra, but significantly.

Is there something inherently wrong with Denon's implementation of XT32 with dual subs, or am I doing something wrong. I'd love to have XT32 do individual corrections for each sub, but the y-splitter as of now will be my go to. Any advice for me to tinker with would be great.
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post #6722 of 6878 Old 07-11-2019, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
The acoustical signature of control rooms vary widely. Keith Barnes posted a composite graph on this thread (or its predecessor, Part I) that showed just how varied they are. If you are into searching, it is amazing to behold.

I still haven't been able to find that graph he posted. Actually I see where he posted it twice, but the graph is gone and the "forget looking at this" icon has replaced it. Did anybody transfer it to a personal Word file that you can acceess, or a picture file of some kind?

Here is a bit of possibly related information. For years, 1/3 octave smoothing was a standard measurement tool. It is not used as often now. People on this forum agreed to use 1/6th octave smoothing, at one time. Here, the bottom graph is close to 1/3 octave smoothing, while the top one is much higher resolution.
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/atta...59d1305280303-best-mix-room-planet-graph2.jpg Since the combination of control room and speakers is not flat, even without the monkeying around of the "suits" conducting the loudness wars, Reference with a capital R, and "hearing what the mixers heard" is illusory.


It may be that all we can really do is:

  • Reduce room anomalies with Audyssey, room treatments, speaker and listener position.
  • Adjust 'preference' EQ for each selection, album, or movie, by ear, when we feel it is needed.
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post #6723 of 6878 Old 07-11-2019, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zcraig View Post
I have a pair of SVS PB-1000s with opposing corner placement. My AVR is the Denon AVR-X6200W, which has has dual sub-outs and Audyssey Multi-XT32 and SUBEQ-HT. Recently it had to go in for service and I was given a loaner Integra DTR-40.6, which only has one sub out and "lesser" Audyssey product. With the loaner I was kind of blown away with what I thought I was always lacking, some impactful bass. The dialogue of deep voices had that true cinematic sound and the action was chest pounding. Music had life.

I have done a lot of research and applied the 80hz frequency across all speakers, mic placement patterns...etc. The room is carpeted, closed, and acoustically treated with 7 2x4' panels and three large bas traps.

The main differences, Audyssey aside, was the Integra only has one sub out and I used a y-splitter for the two subs. With the , Denon I always used the two sub outs to utilize SUQEQ and matched each sub to -75dB and Audyssey always applied a high negative trim, -10+-.05dB. So I thought I would experiment using the only one sub out on the Denon and using the Y-splitter for the two subs. Both subs still individually matched to -75dB (did not adjust the gain on the subs at all), Audyssey only applied a -3.0dB correction. I haven't watched any movies yet, but initially music sounds better, not sure as good as the Integra, but significantly.

Is there something inherently wrong with Denon's implementation of XT32 with dual subs, or am I doing something wrong. I'd love to have XT32 do individual corrections for each sub, but the y-splitter as of now will be my go to. Any advice for me to tinker with would be great.

Hi,

There is nothing inherently wrong with Audyssey's implementation of XT-32 with SubEQ, and most people get great results with it, although there can sometimes be phase cancellation issues wherever two subs on opposing walls are concerned. You could do the sub distance tweak, explained in Section III-C of the Guide, linked below, if you want to test that idea.

I'm not sure I am following exactly what the Integra did with your subwoofers, but it sounds as if you ended-up with your subs set to a higher volume level with the Integra. One of the things that is not quite as well understood as it might be, is that after XT-32 set your two subs to about -10.5 in trim level, you could have (and probably should have) turned them up.

Section II of the Guide, linked in my signature, goes into quite a bit of detail on this issue of why we need to add bass after a calibration, and how to do it. So I won't try to recap it all here. Simply put, though, just adjust your bass volume to taste, so that you get the chest pounding effect you are looking for.

As for the use of the Y-splitter, YMMV! In theory, you should be better off with Audyssey setting distances (timing) and levels separately, for subs in opposing corners. So, I would default to that method first, perhaps with the distance tweak, and would just try turning-up the volume of the subs subsequent to the calibration.

On the other hand, if you honestly feel that you get better listening results from Y-connecting both subs into a single sub out, then who's to say that you are wrong? Absent measurements of the frequency response, using both methods, it's all Monday morning quarterbacking to second-guess what you hear.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #6724 of 6878 Old 07-11-2019, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
As Jon mentioned, if you would actually like to use your subwoofer, all speakers must be set to "Small" (read: Bass Management On). With your mains set to "Large" (read: Bass Management Off), the only thing that will be sent to your subs is the LFE channel in 5.1/7.1 content.

FYI, those graphs you see of your "result" in the Audyssey app (or under Audyssey on the AVR) are not actual measurements of the response...they are only a rough estimate of your post-calibration results. As someone else mentioned, if you want to see your actual response, start with the REW link in my sig.
Is this correct?

My understanding is that all speakers don't have to be set to "Small" for bass management to function. My understanding is that bass management will be applied to those speakers which are set to "Small" and not applied to those set to "Large", and that bass management will work provided at least 1 speaker is set to "Small".

These days I only run a 2.2 setup and the speaker size setting applies to pairs of speakers so I can't test by setting one of my 2 speakers to "Large" and the other to "Small". I do seem to remember years ago when I was running a 5.1 system that I could run my front L and R as "Large" and the centre and the surround pair as "Small" with bass management being applied only to the centre and surrounds.
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post #6725 of 6878 Old 07-11-2019, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by David Aiken View Post
Is this correct?

My understanding is that all speakers don't have to be set to "Small" for bass management to function. My understanding is that bass management will be applied to those speakers which are set to "Small" and not applied to those set to "Large", and that bass management will work provided at least 1 speaker is set to "Small".

These days I only run a 2.2 setup and the speaker size setting applies to pairs of speakers so I can't test by setting one of my 2 speakers to "Large" and the other to "Small". I do seem to remember years ago when I was running a 5.1 system that I could run my front L and R as "Large" and the centre and the surround pair as "Small" with bass management being applied only to the centre and surrounds.

Hi David,

My understanding has always been that, if the front speakers are set to Large, and other speakers are set to Small, the bass below the crossovers for those other speakers, and any LFE content, would simply be redirected to the front speakers. I just tested this by setting my front speakers to Large, with my other speakers set to Small, and played some bass content that would normally turn-on my subwoofers. (They were definitely engaged in my Speaker Configuration menu.) But, the subs never came on with that content, and it was obvious that they weren't playing.

I believe that Alan is right, and the test with my Marantz 7008 confirms that for at least a limited sample.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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Hi Mike,

I am looking for a guide to Audyssey XT32 that includes theory and explanation for its different features and capabilities .

Can you suggest one?

Thanks
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post #6727 of 6878 Old 07-11-2019, 06:54 PM
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Hi Mike,

I am looking for a guide to Audyssey XT32 that includes theory and explanation for its different features and capabilities .

Can you suggest one?

Thanks

I think that you should read the relevant sections of the FAQ, at the beginning of this thread, and several sections of the Guide. Beyond that, I think you would have to go back to the Audyssey thread Part I, from the time that XT-32 was introduced. There was a lot of discussion of what XT-32 was intended to accomplish, which involved some AVS heavyweights. Some of that discussion, along with some comparison graphs with XT, are captured in the FAQ.

The short answer to your question is that there isn't an easy answer. XT-32 has been around for quite a while, and there have been a number of threads that have discussed it in detail. Like most audio subjects, it can take some independent research to dig out the specific information that you may be looking for. Reference sources such as the Audyssey FAQ and the Guide are intended to collate as much useful information as possible, but they may or may not answer all of your specific questions. That's the best answer I can give you.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #6728 of 6878 Old 07-12-2019, 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi David,

My understanding has always been that, if the front speakers are set to Large, and other speakers are set to Small, the bass below the crossovers for those other speakers, and any LFE content, would simply be redirected to the front speakers. I just tested this by setting my front speakers to Large, with my other speakers set to Small, and played some bass content that would normally turn-on my subwoofers. (They were definitely engaged in my Speaker Configuration menu.) But, the subs never came on with that content, and it was obvious that they weren't playing.

I believe that Alan is right, and the test with my Marantz 7008 confirms that for at least a limited sample.

Regards,
Mike

Now, for those who don't know, the following is not recommended and yards of text have been written condemning it, but if you want to engage the subwoofer for all deep bass, yet still have the main front speakers set to LARGE, you can turn on LFE + Main, which means bass that is going to your mains, and is being played by them, also is sent to the subwoofer, along with the LFE sound effects below the Low Pass Filter turnover. This is sometimes called "double bass."



What is wrong with that? Some people may get phase attenuation, multipath distortion, etc. Most good subwoofers are considerably more capable than the main speakers at reproducing high SPL bass down to a very low pitch. Cutting off main speakers below a certain frequency by setting them to SMALL gives you slightly more headroom through the main amplifiers and speakers, etc., etc.


But if someone has gargantuan main speakers (mine are 52" high, 32" wide, and 28 1/3 inches deep) that person may wonder, "Why did I buy these huge speakers, if I'm going to stigmatize them by calling them SMALL, cutting them off at 80 Hz?" That may be why many AVRs set the mains to LARGE if they have half-way decent bass. I think that's what Chris K, co-founder and CTO of Audyssey thinks (he thinks they should be set for SMALL, period). I've tried mine both ways, and decided on SMALL. My big mains still give me extraordinary dynamics, and rip roaring bass at about 100 to 200 Hz, without protesting the way some towers with small woofers might.
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post #6729 of 6878 Old 07-12-2019, 01:17 AM
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its easier to dsp/eq system if speakers set to small. I think audyssey gets confused if people use large + subs

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post #6730 of 6878 Old 07-12-2019, 02:48 AM
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Is this correct?
No, I think there is a misunderstanding somewhere. If you want the sub to play for a particular channel, that channel must be set to Small (excluding double bass, LFE+Main settings). If the fronts are set to Large but the surrounds are set to Small, the surrounds will still cross over to the subs, but the fronts won't.
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post #6731 of 6878 Old 07-12-2019, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

There is nothing inherently wrong with Audyssey's implementation of XT-32 with SubEQ, and most people get great results with it, although there can sometimes be phase cancellation issues wherever two subs on opposing walls are concerned. You could do the sub distance tweak, explained in Section III-C of the Guide, linked below, if you want to test that idea.

I'm not sure I am following exactly what the Integra did with your subwoofers, but it sounds as if you ended-up with your subs set to a higher volume level with the Integra. One of the things that is not quite as well understood as it might be, is that after XT-32 set your two subs to about -10.5 in trim level, you could have (and probably should have) turned them up.

Section II of the Guide, linked in my signature, goes into quite a bit of detail on this issue of why we need to add bass after a calibration, and how to do it. So I won't try to recap it all here. Simply put, though, just adjust your bass volume to taste, so that you get the chest pounding effect you are looking for.

As for the use of the Y-splitter, YMMV! In theory, you should be better off with Audyssey setting distances (timing) and levels separately, for subs in opposing corners. So, I would default to that method first, perhaps with the distance tweak, and would just try turning-up the volume of the subs subsequent to the calibration.

On the other hand, if you honestly feel that you get better listening results from Y-connecting both subs into a single sub out, then who's to say that you are wrong? Absent measurements of the frequency response, using both methods, it's all Monday morning quarterbacking to second-guess what you hear.

Regards,
Mike
Thanks Mike.

Last night I re-ran as two separate subs, with maybe a bit better mic placement. Trim came in at -7/7.5dB for each sub. I watched Fantastic Beasts: The Crimes of Grindelwald and it was just lifeless. I even changed the trim to +12dB and yes you can hear more of the subs, but it just wasn't even close to what a movie should sound like.

Here's a response from Ed Mullen at SVS:
"The opposing corner placement could result in XT32 setting non-optimal distances for each subwoofer, which can create a cancellation null. Sometimes running both subs off a single sub-out and then adjusting the phase on the closer unit (hopefully with REW guiding the results) can provide better results.

Also, anecdotally there may be differences in actual calibration level between XT32 and XT in the Integra, even though both claim to be at 75 dB. The 7 dB delta between the two with the same gain level on the subs is possible evidence of that. And 7 dB is a major difference. The only way to confirm would be with an SPL meter (or REW acting as an SPL meter)."

I don't have a mic for REW, but sounds like the next step.

Anyone on this forum in Denver that has some expertise and maybe has a REW setup...and doesn't mind getting paid in beer?
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post #6732 of 6878 Old 07-12-2019, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by zcraig View Post
Thanks Mike.

Last night I re-ran as two separate subs, with maybe a bit better mic placement. Trim came in at -7/7.5dB for each sub. I watched Fantastic Beasts: The Crimes of Grindelwald and it was just lifeless. I even changed the trim to +12dB and yes you can hear more of the subs, but it just wasn't even close to what a movie should sound like.

Here's a response from Ed Mullen at SVS:
"The opposing corner placement could result in XT32 setting non-optimal distances for each subwoofer, which can create a cancellation null. Sometimes running both subs off a single sub-out and then adjusting the phase on the closer unit (hopefully with REW guiding the results) can provide better results.

Also, anecdotally there may be differences in actual calibration level between XT32 and XT in the Integra, even though both claim to be at 75 dB. The 7 dB delta between the two with the same gain level on the subs is possible evidence of that. And 7 dB is a major difference. The only way to confirm would be with an SPL meter (or REW acting as an SPL meter)."

I don't have a mic for REW, but sounds like the next step.

Anyone on this forum in Denver that has some expertise and maybe has a REW setup...and doesn't mind getting paid in beer?

If you download REW it has a Room Simulator feature that you can use to find the optimal placement of your subwoofers (up to 4 ) in your room. Its fun, try it, please!

P.s.: I wouldn't mind getting paid in beer, but I'm afraid I'm a bit too far from Denver.
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If you download REW it has a Room Simulator feature that you can use to find the optimal placement of your subwoofers (up to 4 ) in your room. Its fun, try it, please!

P.s.: I wouldn't mind getting paid in beer, but I'm afraid I'm a bit too far from Denver.
Thanks again Mike.

I'd also be willing to pay for someone to come out and get my system optimized. So if anyone knows of a good person in Denver I'd love to get their contact info.
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Thanks again Mike.

I'd also be willing to pay for someone to come out and get my system optimized. So if anyone knows of a good person in Denver I'd love to get their contact info.

Last week I was looking into the mirror and said: "You should not drink any more beer Mike!" Glad my name is not Mike!
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Thanks again Mike.

I'd also be willing to pay for someone to come out and get my system optimized. So if anyone knows of a good person in Denver I'd love to get their contact info.

You might have to wait a bit, but Chad B is great at his job: hdtvbychadb.com

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No, I think there is a misunderstanding somewhere. If you want the sub to play for a particular channel, that channel must be set to Small (excluding double bass, LFE+Main settings). If the fronts are set to Large but the surrounds are set to Small, the surrounds will still cross over to the subs, but the fronts won't.
That's the way I thought it worked but Alan P and mthomas47 say it doesn't. They both say you need to have the fronts set to "Small" or no channels cross over to the sub, at least that's the way I read their posts.

I wish Marantz/Denon and other manufacturers would simply get rid of the "Large" and "Small" labels, create a Bass Management item in the menu, and give you a control for each group of speakers where you simply select "On" or "Off" for bass management and set the crossover frequency, all in one sub menu. Of course that would mean they would have to explain to people what "bass management" means but that can't be any harder than explaining to people why large, as in physically large, speakers may need to be set to "small" and that the large/small distinction has nothing to do with physical speaker size. It would also mean that the setting lets people know what they're doing in a clear and accurate manner.
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Friday night quiz

OK guys, please take a look at this device and vote whether this Denon is:

a) fake
b) real

Give reason why you chose your answer, please!





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post #6738 of 6878 Old 07-14-2019, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by David Aiken View Post
That's the way I thought it worked but Alan P and mthomas47 say it doesn't. They both say you need to have the fronts set to "Small" or no channels cross over to the sub, at least that's the way I read their posts.
.

As I type this, I realize it might not help, and that the manufacturers may have been inconsistent or may have changed horses midstream.


Chris K. said something like, "Setting speakers to LARGE means 'send nothing to the subwoofer.' "
I would add "unless you are using LFE+Main," something that Chris never recommends.
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post #6739 of 6878 Old 07-14-2019, 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
As I type this, I realize it might not help, and that the manufacturers may have been inconsistent or may have changed horses midstream.


Chris K. said something like, "Setting speakers to LARGE means 'send nothing to the subwoofer.' "
I would add "unless you are using LFE+Main," something that Chris never recommends.
Yes, but what we're talking about here is surrounds and centre set to small and front L & R set to Large. I'm saying that my belief was that in that situation the bass from the surrounds and centre went to the sub. The OP and Mike are saying that you have to have the front L and R set to small for the bass from any speaker at all to go to the sub, that setting your front L and R to large actually prevents bass from other speakers set to "Small" from going to the sub (ignoring of course the LFE+Main option that neither Chris, you, or I would never do).
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OK guys, please take a look at this device and vote whether this Denon is:

a) fake
b) real

Give reason why you chose your answer, please!

b) real


It is the new Denon DRA-800H - Stereo AV Receiver. It is listed on the official Denon website.
Why do you think it is fake?


In any case it is not relevant to this thread as it does not have Audyssey.
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post #6741 of 6878 Old 07-14-2019, 10:14 AM
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b) real


It is the new Denon DRA-800H - Stereo AV Receiver. It is listed on the official Denon website.
Why do you think it is fake?


In any case it is not relevant to this thread as it does not have Audyssey.

Hi Russ, to me this is fake because an AV receiver with 2 ch stereo makes no sense. It shouldn't exist no matter who the "budget crowds" are to whom it is amid at!!!! This is not an innovative product at all! Its just a look alike! I'm really disappointed at Denon's attitude this time! Let's get serious Denon. Please!


I never thought "fake" would penetrate into the electronics industry in such a way they are doing it right now. But it did and here we are where we can do nothing against it! Rant over!
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post #6742 of 6878 Old 07-14-2019, 11:10 AM
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Bug in MultEQ app v. 1.4.2 (iOS)?

Hi there,

has anyone else noticed the following bug in version 1.4.2 of the MultEQ app (I can only speak for iOS), released on sunday, July 7th:

1) Perform a new calibration or open an existing one with the app
2) After that go to "Speaker measurement results" (translating from the German version of the app here, but it should be something like that in English - upper option in the main menu)
3) Set all speakers to "small" and their crossovers as you desire (I'm using a 7.1.4 layout and set all crossovers of the lower level speakers to 80Hz and that of the front heights to 100Hz, that of the rear heights to 110Hz)
4) Save those settings and go back to the main menu
5) If you go back into "Speaker measurement results" now, the front speakers (except the center speaker!) have been reset to 40Hz, no matter what you manually set before!
You can set them back to 80Hz, but as soon as you leave to the main menu (from where you can send the settings to the AV receiver), they fall back to 40Hz again - NO WAY to make them stay on another crossover frequency!

So if you send the file to the AV receiver, the fronts are stuck at 40Hz.
And since you cannot manually alter those settings in the AV receiver's Audyssey menu, you have to live with that.
Only way is to deactivate Audyssey and use the AV receiver's manual speaker settings to select the 80Hz crossover for the fronts.
But then you lose the benefits of Audyssey.

I own an AVC-X8500H (European equivalent to the AVR-X8500H in the U.S.), just for info.
With 40Hz crossover for the front speakers my system sounds dull (I own a THX Ultra speaker system), but I guess I have to live with that until the next (hopefully fixed) app update arrives.
With the previous app version everything was fine.
Already tried uninstalling an reinstalling the app, also tried on iPad and iPhone, all the same, no change.
Anyone else?

Warning: If you are currently happy with the sound and calibration of your system better DO NOT try this just for fun without saving your AV receivers config file to USB first (something I sadly forgot) - you may end up in the same situation as me, not being able to restore the 80Hz front crossover with Audyssey with the current app version!

Greets
SkyCyberguy

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Last edited by SkyCyberguy; 07-14-2019 at 11:14 AM.
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post #6743 of 6878 Old 07-14-2019, 11:22 AM
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Hi there,

has anyone else noticed the following bug in version 1.4.2 of the MultEQ app (I can only speak for iOS), released on sunday, July 7th:

1) Perform a new calibration or open an existing one with the app
2) After that go to "Speaker measurement results" (translating from the German version of the app here, but it should be something like that in English - upper option in the main menu)
3) Set all speakers to "small" and their crossovers as you desire (I'm using a 7.1.4 layout and set all crossovers of the lower level speakers to 80Hz and that of the front heights to 100Hz, that of the rear heights to 110Hz)
4) Save those settings and go back to the main menu
5) If you go back into "Speaker measurement results" now, the front speakers (except the center speaker!) have been reset to 40Hz, no matter what you manually set before!
You can set them back to 80Hz, but as soon as you leave to the main menu (from where you can send the settings to the AV receiver), they fall back to 40Hz again - NO WAY to make them stay on another crossover frequency!

So if you send the file to the AV receiver, the fronts are stuck at 40Hz.
And since you cannot manually alter those settings in the AV receiver's Audyssey menu, you have to live with that.
Only way is to deactivate Audyssey and use the AV receiver's manual speaker settings to select the 80Hz crossover for the fronts.
But then you lose the benefits of Audyssey.


I own an AVC-X8500H (European equivalent to the AVR-X8500H in the U.S.), just for info.
With 40Hz crossover for the front speakers my system sounds dull (I own a THX Ultra speaker system), but I guess I have to live with that until the next (hopefully fixed) app update arrives.
With the previous app version everything was fine.
Already tried uninstalling an reinstalling the app, also tried on iPad and iPhone, all the same, no change.
Anyone else?

Warning: If you are currently happy with the sound and calibration of your system better DO NOT try this just for fun without saving your AV receivers config file to USB first (something I sadly forgot) - you may end up in the same situation as me, not being able to restore the 80Hz front crossover with Audyssey with the current app version!

Greets
SkyCyberguy
The manual speaker settings do not deactivate audyssey. If you were not using the app, that is how you would set the speaker size and xovers.
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post #6744 of 6878 Old 07-14-2019, 11:31 AM
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The manual speaker settings do not deactivate audyssey. If you were not using the app, that is how you would set the speaker size and xovers.
There are two speaker settings in the AV receiver: One for Audyssey and one without.
The one for Audyssey can either be used in the AVR itself, so it performs a setup calibration etc - but on a lower level than the app does. That's the benefit of the app and the reason for its additional cost as I understand: it uses your smartphone's / tablet's processing power to perform the XT32 portion of the setup, something in former AVR generations you needed additional (expensive) measuring/processing equipment for.
Using the App the AVR's Audyssey speaker setting can then be used to check the results of the config you sent from the app - but not change those, at least not the crossovers.
The AVR itself only performs the "standard" Audyssey setup procedure which is inferior to that performed with the app.
If that's good enough for you and you're not using the app, of course afterwards you can manually alter those settings in the AVR, too.
For me it's not, which is why I'm using the app.
And then you have to do the settings in the app, too.
The AVR's Audyssey speaker setting menu is just for checking the results then, but locks out certain setting options, referring to the app instead.

You can, of course, change the crossovers in the AVR's "Not Audyssey"-setting menu.
But this will have no effect when the AVR is in one of the Audyssey modes (Reference, Flat, etc.).

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Last edited by SkyCyberguy; 07-14-2019 at 12:09 PM.
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post #6745 of 6878 Old 07-14-2019, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyCyberguy View Post
There are two speaker settings in the AV receiver: One for Audyssey and one without.
The one for Audyssey can either be used in the AVR itself, so it performs a setup calibration etc - but on a lower level than the app does. That's the benefit of the app and the reason for its additional cost as I understand: it uses your smartphone's / tablet's processing power to perform the XT32 portion of the setup, something in former AVR generations you needed additional (expensive) measuring/processing equipment for.
Or it can be used to check the results of the config you sent from the app - but not change those, at least not the crossovers.
The AVR itself only performs the "standard" Audyssey setup procedure which is inferior to that performed with the app.
If that's good enough for you and you're not using the app, of course you can manually alter those settings in the AVR, too.
For me it's not, which is why I'm using the app.
And then you have to do the settings in the app, too.
The AVR's Audyssey speaker setting menu is just for checking the results then, but locks out certain setting options, referring to the app instead.

You can, of course, change the crossovers in the AVR's "Not Audyssey"-setting menu.
But this will have no effect when the AVR is in one of the Audyssey modes (Reference, Flat, etc.).
I dont understand your point. I am quite familiar with Audyssey in the AVR and with the app as I have used both. Speaker crossover is not an Audyssey calibration function. Set in in manual settings. How you ran audyssey is irrelevant.
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post #6746 of 6878 Old 07-14-2019, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyCyberguy View Post
There are two speaker settings in the AV receiver: One for Audyssey and one without.
The one for Audyssey can either be used in the AVR itself, so it performs a setup calibration etc - but on a lower level than the app does. That's the benefit of the app and the reason for its additional cost as I understand: it uses your smartphone's / tablet's processing power to perform the XT32 portion of the setup, something in former AVR generations you needed additional (expensive) measuring/processing equipment for.
Or it can be used to check the results of the config you sent from the app - but not change those, at least not the crossovers.
The AVR itself only performs the "standard" Audyssey setup procedure which is inferior to that performed with the app.
If that's good enough for you and you're not using the app, of course you can manually alter those settings in the AVR, too.
For me it's not, which is why I'm using the app.
And then you have to do the settings in the app, too.
The AVR's Audyssey speaker setting menu is just for checking the results then, but locks out certain setting options, referring to the app instead.

You can, of course, change the crossovers in the AVR's "Not Audyssey"-setting menu.
But this will have no effect when the AVR is in one of the Audyssey modes (Reference, Flat, etc.).

Hi,

If you like using the app for the additional user control it gives you, then that's absolutely what you should use. For instance, you can choose not to EQ above a certain frequency, and you can create a house curve that way. But, there is no difference in the actual quality of the EQ filters that Audyssey sets, using either the AVR or the App. All the app does is to give you more control of the process.

The reason I am posting this is because I think it's an important distinction to make for others who may be reading along and who may read your post as suggesting that the nature of the calibration process itself is different with the AVR, and inferior to that of the app; or that somehow the smartphone app sets filters with greater effectiveness than the AVR does. It doesn't do that. The way that Audyssey sets its filters hasn't changed with the app. The app just gives users more control regarding where Audyssey sets filters, and what happens after they are set. That's still a lot, but it's an important distinction to make, nevertheless.

What you described in your first post frankly sounds like a software glitch, which I hope gets resolved in a future update. Meanwhile, I might consider going back to using the AVR version of Audyssey if the glitch becomes too inconvenient. Some people did that when the app wouldn't allow subwoofers to play <20Hz frequencies. Fortunately, user complaints resulted in a fix for that glitch.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
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post #6747 of 6878 Old 07-14-2019, 12:24 PM
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Hi,

If you like using the app for the additional user control it gives you, then that's absolutely what you should use. For instance, you can choose not to EQ above a certain frequency, and you can create a house curve that way. But, there is no difference in the actual quality of the EQ filters that Audyssey sets, using either the AVR or the App. All the app does is to give you more control of the process.

The reason I am posting this is because I think it's an important distinction to make for others who may be reading along and who may read your post as suggesting that the nature of the calibration process itself is different with the AVR, and inferior to that of the app; or that somehow the smartphone app sets filters with greater effectiveness than the AVR does. It doesn't do that. The way that Audyssey sets its filters hasn't changed with the app. The app just gives users more control regarding where Audyssey sets filters, and what happens after they are set. That's still a lot, but it's an important distinction to make, nevertheless.

What you described in your first post frankly sounds like a software glitch, which I hope gets resolved in a future update. Meanwhile, I might consider going back to using the AVR version of Audyssey if the glitch becomes too inconvenient. Some people did that when the app wouldn't allow subwoofers to play <20Hz frequencies. Fortunately, user complaints resulted in a fix for that glitch.

Regards,
Mike
Honestly, I dont understand why xover settings are even part of the app. Ive never used the app to set them. The app should just be for running Audyssey with the enhancements that are not available in the AVR. Just my opinion.
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post #6748 of 6878 Old 07-14-2019, 12:25 PM
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I dont understand your point. I am quite familiar with Audyssey in the AVR and with the app as I have used both. Speaker crossover is not an Audyssey calibration function. Set in in manual settings. How you ran audyssey is irrelevant.
My point is: There are two speaker settings in the AVR, one for use with Audyssey and one ("Manual") for use without it.
The "Manual" one does not affect the Audyssey modes.
The one for use with Audyssey can be manually adjusted afterwards when you used the AVR to perform the speaker calibration.
But it cannot when you used the app to do so - then the app is the only way to change things like speaker sizes and crossovers so they affect the Audyssey modes.
When I send the calibration file from the app to the AVR and I enter the AVR's Audyssey speaker menu it just offers "Amp Assign", "Channel Select", "Check Results" and "Restore".
When I select "Check Results" it shows the results set in the app (including my manually set crossovers, including the faulty 40Hz setting for the fronts) - but does not allow me to change those.
In the "Manual" menu I can change the crossover setting to 80Hz, but this pretty much surely does not affect the Audyssey modes. Proof, aside from sound, is that in the Audyssey menu the crossover for the fronts still shows 40Hz, even when I set it to 80Hz in the "Manual" menu.
I also hear a clear difference in bass reproduction when swtiching between "Audyssey Off" (where the 80Hz apply then) and "Audyssey Reference" (which is still 40Hz).
And this difference is not due to Audyssey bass correction, I'm not using that (switched it off in the app) since I have a DSPeaker AntiMode for that plus Bass Shakers installed.
The bass simply runs higher with "Audyssey Off". This was not the case with previous app versions without that unpleasant bug.

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post #6749 of 6878 Old 07-14-2019, 12:31 PM
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Hi,

If you like using the app for the additional user control it gives you, then that's absolutely what you should use. For instance, you can choose not to EQ above a certain frequency, and you can create a house curve that way. But, there is no difference in the actual quality of the EQ filters that Audyssey sets, using either the AVR or the App. All the app does is to give you more control of the process.

The reason I am posting this is because I think it's an important distinction to make for others who may be reading along and who may read your post as suggesting that the nature of the calibration process itself is different with the AVR, and inferior to that of the app; or that somehow the smartphone app sets filters with greater effectiveness than the AVR does. It doesn't do that. The way that Audyssey sets its filters hasn't changed with the app. The app just gives users more control regarding where Audyssey sets filters, and what happens after they are set. That's still a lot, but it's an important distinction to make, nevertheless.

What you described in your first post frankly sounds like a software glitch, which I hope gets resolved in a future update. Meanwhile, I might consider going back to using the AVR version of Audyssey if the glitch becomes too inconvenient. Some people did that when the app wouldn't allow subwoofers to play <20Hz frequencies. Fortunately, user complaints resulted in a fix for that glitch.

Regards,
Mike
Okay, that's interesting information and clarifies a lot - kudos and a huge thanks for that!
My problem is that I deactivated the MultEQ filers for the subwoofer channel because I use bass shakers (which sound, sorry, FEEL best with a linear signal) and have a seperate DSPeaker AntiMode DualCore 2.0 for my two subwoofers.
I'm pretty sure the AVR's Audyssey settings do not allow to deactivate MultEQ filters for just one channel, which would make this a choice between pest or cholera for me.
Or do they?
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post #6750 of 6878 Old 07-14-2019, 12:38 PM
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My point is: There are two speaker settings in the AVR, one for use with Audyssey and one ("Manual") for use without it.
The "Manual" one does not affect the Audyssey modes.
The one for use with Audyssey can be manually adjusted afterwards when you used the AVR to perform the speaker calibration.
But it cannot when you used the app to do so - then the app is the only way to change things like speaker sizes and crossovers so they affect the Audyssey modes.
When I send the calibration file from the app to the AVR and I enter the AVR's Audyssey speaker menu it just offers "Amp Assign", "Channel Select", "Check Results" and "Restore".
When I select "Check Results" it shows the results set in the app (including my manually set crossovers, including the faulty 40Hz setting for the fronts) - but does not allow me to change those.
In the "Manual" menu I can change the crossover setting to 80Hz, but this pretty much surely does not affect the Audyssey modes. Proof, aside from sound, is that in the Audyssey menu the crossover for the fronts still shows 40Hz, even when I set it to 80Hz in the "Manual" menu.
I also hear a clear difference in bass reproduction when swtiching between "Audyssey Off" (where the 80Hz apply then) and "Audyssey Reference" (which is still 40Hz).
And this difference is not due to Audyssey bass correction, I'm not using that (switched it off in the app) since I have a DSPeaker AntiMode for that plus Bass Shakers installed.
The bass simply runs higher with "Audyssey Off". This was not the case with previous app versions without that unpleasant bug.
The Manual speaker setting set the crossovers. Audyssey, AVR, app, not using audyssey. Again, speaker size and xover is NOT an Audyssey function. Its an AVR function.

"Check results" is a read only field that shows what was initially set using the AVR or app calibration run. Notice "CHECK" results, not "modify" results. Its handy if you are messing with setting and want to get back to what was initially set.

You are fine. Use manual to change the settings. Check results to review what was initially set.
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