"Official" Audyssey thread Part II - Page 226 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6751 of 6880 Old 07-14-2019, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by sjm817 View Post
Honestly, I dont understand why xover settings are even part of the app. Ive never used the app to set them. The app should just be for running Audyssey with the enhancements that are not available in the AVR. Just my opinion.
It's handy if you want to have multiple setup/calibrations saved and switch between them. You can simply load the file and be ready to go without having to go in and manually change the crossover settings each time you load a file. Same for levels and distances (mostly used by people to adjust the sub).
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post #6752 of 6880 Old 07-17-2019, 09:40 AM
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Hello,

I have a new 7.1 speaker setup, now with the great Gallo Strada 2 and Adiva SE as Surround Back, and the Gallo Subwoofer.
In the manual Gallo states that when you use a receiver the x-over must be set between 80-120Hz.
Audyssey will set them at 150Hz - 200Hz for the Strada and 120Hz for the Adiva, so a on the high side.

Will it be wrong to set all to say 100Hz or maybe even 90 or 80Hz like Gallo sugests ?
Will Audyssey still "works" when i lower the x-over ?

Thanks....
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Those speakers are just very small and Audyssey is measuring the fact they're severely lacking in bass. I would not lower the crossover the receiver sets after running Audyssey (they usually err on the low side, not the high side) or you're likely to have a hole in your response between the sub and the speakers. You can certainly try different settings to see what you feel sounds the best. But I think you'll find, if you want any mid-bass, it's going to have to come from the sub with those speakers.
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post #6754 of 6880 Old 07-17-2019, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post
Hello,

I have a new 7.1 speaker setup, now with the great Gallo Strada 2 and Adiva SE as Surround Back, and the Gallo Subwoofer.
In the manual Gallo states that when you use a receiver the x-over must be set between 80-120Hz.
Audyssey will set them at 150Hz - 200Hz for the Strada and 120Hz for the Adiva, so a on the high side.

Will it be wrong to set all to say 100Hz or maybe even 90 or 80Hz like Gallo sugests ?
Will Audyssey still "works" when i lower the x-over ?

Thanks....

Hi,

Can you place those speakers closer to the wall, like within 30 cms or less? That way the boundary reinforcement may help lower the crossover frequencies. You will need to re-run Audyssey to see the effect.
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post #6755 of 6880 Old 07-17-2019, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Hi,

Can you place those speakers closer to the wall, like within 30 cms or less? That way the boundary reinforcement may help lower the crossover frequencies. You will need to re-run Audyssey to see the effect.
Hello, no, can not get closer to the wall, they are on stands and the standfeet is against the wall.
The speakers them self are "just" 15 cm from the wall !

The Gallo (paper) specs are:
68 Hz - 20kHz
90 dB

On the AV receiver you can select small speaker setting.
Manually adjust the frequency between 40-80Hz if they are on the wall, and between 80-120Hz if they are on floor stands.


A big differents with the Audyssey setting of 150 and 200 Hz...…….
Can't i just set all speakers to 100Hz manual ?

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post #6756 of 6880 Old 07-17-2019, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post
Hello, no, can not get closer to the wall, they are on stands and the standfeet is against the wall.
The speakers them self are "just" 15 cm from the wall !

The Gallo (paper) specs are:
68 Hz - 20kHz
90 dB

On the AV receiver you can select small speaker setting.
Manually adjust the frequency between 40-80Hz if they are on the wall, and between 80-120Hz if they are on floor stands.


A big differents with the Audyssey setting of 150 and 200 Hz...…….
Can't i just set all speakers to 100Hz manual ?

In that case you will have an un-EQ'd range from 100Hz to 150 Hz! You can either live with it or let's try some more troubleshooting!

Can you confirm those speakers are angled to face the MLP? If you don't mind me asking, can you send a couple of photos of your setup? That would help a lot!
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post #6757 of 6880 Old 07-17-2019, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post
Hello, no, can not get closer to the wall, they are on stands and the standfeet is against the wall.
The speakers them self are "just" 15 cm from the wall !

The Gallo (paper) specs are:
68 Hz - 20kHz
90 dB

On the AV receiver you can select small speaker setting.
Manually adjust the frequency between 40-80Hz if they are on the wall, and between 80-120Hz if they are on floor stands.


A big differents with the Audyssey setting of 150 and 200 Hz...…….
To my understanding Audyssey just reports the frequency response level it measured to the AVR and the AVR does the setting... So the speaker output was down 3db at 150Hz not 68Hz. If you manually set it to 68Hz then you will likely, as a guess, have a dip in the frequency level output.

[Edit] PS: 68Hz to 150Hz is just over 1 octave so the output at 68Hz could be down another 3db or more(?) depending on the roll off slope of the speaker response
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post #6758 of 6880 Old 07-17-2019, 02:08 PM
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Thanks to all that helped, i also have contact with mthomas47 and he had also some great advice.
He told me to use the settings as messured, or lower the x-over and see if the sound stayes without distortion.
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post #6759 of 6880 Old 07-17-2019, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt2026 View Post
... So the speaker output was down 3db at 150Hz not 68Hz. If you manually set it to 68Hz then you will likely, as a guess, have a dip in the frequency level output.
... and distortion. Audyssey is actually measuring the 3dB down point. You want to keep anything below that out of your main speakers, i.e., you want the sound to roll off below the 3 db down point, and let the subwoofer do the heavy lifting.
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
... and distortion. Audyssey is actually measuring the 3dB down point. You want to keep anything below that out of your main speakers, i.e., you want the sound to roll off below the 3 db down point, and let the subwoofer do the heavy lifting.
As the Gallo Strada are set so high (150 and 200 Hz) will it matter to set LPF/LFE to a lower number ? (now standard 120 Hz)
Du to the high x-over i can "hear" the sub as this is playing well above 80 Hz.
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post #6761 of 6880 Old 07-18-2019, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post
As the Gallo Strada are set so high (150 and 200 Hz) will it matter to set LPF/LFE to a lower number ? (now standard 120 Hz)
Du to the high x-over i can "hear" the sub as this is playing well above 80 Hz.

Please note, the LPF/LFE setting has nothing to do with Bass Management and crossover settings. The subwoofer channel of the AVR has two (internal) inputs, one is the LFE contents (so called 0.1 channel), the other one is the frequency contents filtered out and re-directed below the crossover frequency to the subwoofer channel. These two are summed up before being sent to the subwoofer. So, no matter how you adjust the LPF of LFE it will have no effect on speaker to subwoofer crossover. Hope my explanation is clear!

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post #6762 of 6880 Old 07-18-2019, 03:57 PM
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As the Gallo Strada are set so high (150 and 200 Hz) will it matter to set LPF/LFE to a lower number ? (now standard 120 Hz) ...
What Feri said.


LPF/LFE is supposed to be for Low Frequency Effects (sound effects, e.g., explosions, thunder, etc.) ONLY, not music, dialog, or higher frequency sound effects. So, 120 Hz for LPF/LFE is fine, but if you sense any weakness in your subwoofer, which seems to have a pretty small chamber and driver, setting the LPF/LFE at 80 Hz will still maintain super low sound effects, with the range between 80 Hz to 120 Hz only slightly attenuated. My best guess is the cleanest, clearest results would be:
  • LPF/LFE set at 80 Hz
  • All other speakers set on SMALL
  • Crossovers for all speakers other than the subwoofer set wherever Audyssey/AVR suggests, or perhaps a bit higher.
IMO, distortion is public enemy #1. I have friends who play movies back at a lower volume than I would (Keith Barnes and I are the high volume kings, both of us averaging at 5 dB below reference). Some of my low volume friends run into what, to my ear, seems like too much distortion for a given SPL, rather than SPL which would be too high if played through a low distortion system. Protecting small woofers from more bass than they can handle, and re-channeling that bass to subwoofers is one way to avoid that distortion and a needless reduction of SPL.

I don't mean to complicate things, but here are some points of view on where the LPF/LFE should be set. Eventually, you could experiment with these. No hurry! The following is excerpted from the Keith Barnes FAQ for Audyssey. Some of the FAQ is now out of date (so for newer info, see Mike's GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES), but this part of Keith's FAQ (and several other parts) is still relevant! The two people cited/quoted are experts of the first water.

" Roger Dressler (formerly of Dolby Labs and the guy who helped them develop many of their technologies, including bass management) and Mark Seaton (founder and owner of Seaton Sound, makers of the legendary Submersive subwoofers) have both recently put forward an alternative view. Mark explains it like this in this post:

'I personally tend to set the low pass on the LFE channel at 80Hz in most systems by preference. I think many forget that the difference between a 120Hz low pass and an 80Hz low pass is nothing more than a shelving filter. If the low pass is 4th order, the 80Hz filter is about 7dB lower at 100Hz and about 4dB at 80Hz. A 100Hz low pass setting would have about 1/2 that difference. The adjustment has more effect on shaping the LFE track's response than it does on cutting off content. If you're running the subs with a rising response on the low end which blends with the main speakers, experimenting with 80, 100 vs. 120Hz is basically a means to taper the top end of the LFE channel. Setting this lower than 120Hz is not hacking off content any more than setting your sub a few dB hot would destroy a soundtrack.'

What this means in effect is that you do NOT lose the content between 80Hz and 120Hz if you set the LPF of LFE to 80Hz - you simply alter the way it is presented, because the filter is not a brickwall but a shelving filter. Setting it to 80Hz simply allows you to 'shape' the LFE track's response.

Roger goes on to elaborate more in a separate post (my bolding below):

'Back when DTS was making their name with Jurassic Park and Apollo 13 on 35mm film, the LFE bandwidth was 80 Hz. The Dolby Digital codec has a bandlimited LFE channel, and it has a brickwall filter at 120 Hz as a means to protect the LFE channel from higher frequencies (which can still be present even with a 4th-order LPF at 80 Hz). It seems that when films moved from optical to digital delivery, the LFE bandwidth crept up to 120 Hz or maybe even higher (the PCM LFE channel has no inherent response limitation). I suppose it helps less than magnificent subwoofers in "regular" cinemas provide more whomp. But I find that LFE in the 100-120 Hz region is just a lot of boominess that unfortunately too often clouds the deeper bass in the bottom 2 octaves. Setting the LFE filter to 80 Hz does a dandy job of dealing with that boominess IMHO.

In addition, I have found that 5.1 music recordings are not well disciplined in their use of LFE, leading to muddiness that is even more annoying. Again, the 80 Hz LFE filter setting really helps the bass knit together more cohesively." Background information also in this post of Roger's.'

Further comment from Roger Dressler explains the thinking behind a setting of 80Hz as opposed to the more usually recommended 120Hz:

'I was recently noticing that my well tuned room sounded great on 2-ch programs but occasionally had excessive/plump bass on some 5.1 music discs. Turns out many music discs do not have well filtered LFE tracks--easily seen using REW's spectrum analyzer. It also turned out that my SSP did not filter the LFE at 120 Hz or the like.

I did some experiments comparing SACD/DVD-A music recordings with the LFE unfiltered, or filtered at 120 or 80 Hz, and compared the results with the 2-ch mixes on those discs. It was pretty obvious that the mixers were listening with a monitor system using an LFE sub filtered at 80 Hz. The match was obviously right, whereas at 120 Hz it was not even close, and not very pleasant. They filtered the LFE sound in the room rather than the signal feeding the recorder.

I did a similar survey of movie soundtracks, and REW showed all were well filtered near 120 Hz at max. Some DTS movies were rolled off lower, like 90 Hz. In listening to these movies with 80 and 120 Hz LFE filters, it was possible in direct A/B to sometimes hear a difference only with the 120 Hz LFE tracks, but using either the 80 or 120 Hz filters sounded great and sounded correct. The impression was that the 80 Hz setting yielded "deeper, tighter" bass than the 120 Hz, and this has been a major reported difference between Dolby and DTS soundtracks since the days of laser discs. Interestingly, DTS HDMA does not employ the 90 Hz filter, so that "advantage" is now gone, even for the core lossy DTS track.

I have my SSP's LFE set for 80 Hz all the time (F/W updated!). It makes a huge benefit for 5.1 music, and a small benefit for movies, so it all sounds great now."

I should emphasise that the generally accepted setting for the LPF of LFE is 120Hz. However, this is one of those 'preference' issues which members may want to experiment with and come to their own conclusions. I have tried it myself and found that I can definitely hear (or feel) a difference between 80Hz and 120Hz for the LPF. 120Hz gives more slam and I feel the gunshots etc more in my chest. But Roger is right - it also adds a touch of boom too. 80Hz gives a little less slam but overall it's tighter. We're talking small, but noticeable differences. It also seems to be movie-dependent - I guess some mixers add more to the LFE channel than others, or more above 80Hz anyway.' "
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post #6763 of 6880 Old 07-18-2019, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
What Feri said.


LPF/LFE is supposed to be for Low Frequency Effects (sound effects, e.g., explosions, thunder, etc.) ONLY, not music, dialog, or higher frequency sound effects. So, 120 Hz for LPF/LFE is fine, but if you sense any weakness in your subwoofer, which seems to have a pretty small chamber and driver, setting the LPF/LFE at 80 Hz will still maintain super low sound effects, with the range between 80 Hz to 120 Hz only slightly attenuated. My best guess is the cleanest, clearest results would be:
  • LPF/LFE set at 80 Hz
  • All other speakers set on SMALL
  • Crossovers for all speakers other than the subwoofer set wherever Audyssey/AVR suggests, or perhaps a bit higher.
IMO, distortion is public enemy #1. I have friends who play movies back at a lower volume than I would (Keith Barnes and I are the high volume kings, both of us averaging at 5 dB below reference). Some of my low volume friends run into what, to my ear, seems like too much distortion for a given SPL, rather than SPL which would be too high if played through a low distortion system. Protecting small woofers from more bass than they can handle, and re-channeling that bass to subwoofers is one way to avoid that distortion and a needless reduction of SPL.

I don't mean to complicate things, but here are some points of view on where the LPF/LFE should be set. Eventually, you could experiment with these. No hurry! The following is excerpted from the Keith Barnes FAQ for Audyssey. Some of the FAQ is now out of date (so for newer info, see Mike's GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES), but this part of Keith's FAQ (and several other parts) is still relevant! The two people cited/quoted are experts of the first water.

" Roger Dressler (formerly of Dolby Labs and the guy who helped them develop many of their technologies, including bass management) and Mark Seaton (founder and owner of Seaton Sound, makers of the legendary Submersive subwoofers) have both recently put forward an alternative view. Mark explains it like this in this post:

'I personally tend to set the low pass on the LFE channel at 80Hz in most systems by preference. I think many forget that the difference between a 120Hz low pass and an 80Hz low pass is nothing more than a shelving filter. If the low pass is 4th order, the 80Hz filter is about 7dB lower at 100Hz and about 4dB at 80Hz. A 100Hz low pass setting would have about 1/2 that difference. The adjustment has more effect on shaping the LFE track's response than it does on cutting off content. If you're running the subs with a rising response on the low end which blends with the main speakers, experimenting with 80, 100 vs. 120Hz is basically a means to taper the top end of the LFE channel. Setting this lower than 120Hz is not hacking off content any more than setting your sub a few dB hot would destroy a soundtrack.'

What this means in effect is that you do NOT lose the content between 80Hz and 120Hz if you set the LPF of LFE to 80Hz - you simply alter the way it is presented, because the filter is not a brickwall but a shelving filter. Setting it to 80Hz simply allows you to 'shape' the LFE track's response.

Roger goes on to elaborate more in a separate post (my bolding below):

'Back when DTS was making their name with Jurassic Park and Apollo 13 on 35mm film, the LFE bandwidth was 80 Hz. The Dolby Digital codec has a bandlimited LFE channel, and it has a brickwall filter at 120 Hz as a means to protect the LFE channel from higher frequencies (which can still be present even with a 4th-order LPF at 80 Hz). It seems that when films moved from optical to digital delivery, the LFE bandwidth crept up to 120 Hz or maybe even higher (the PCM LFE channel has no inherent response limitation). I suppose it helps less than magnificent subwoofers in "regular" cinemas provide more whomp. But I find that LFE in the 100-120 Hz region is just a lot of boominess that unfortunately too often clouds the deeper bass in the bottom 2 octaves. Setting the LFE filter to 80 Hz does a dandy job of dealing with that boominess IMHO.

In addition, I have found that 5.1 music recordings are not well disciplined in their use of LFE, leading to muddiness that is even more annoying. Again, the 80 Hz LFE filter setting really helps the bass knit together more cohesively." Background information also in this post of Roger's.'

Further comment from Roger Dressler explains the thinking behind a setting of 80Hz as opposed to the more usually recommended 120Hz:

'I was recently noticing that my well tuned room sounded great on 2-ch programs but occasionally had excessive/plump bass on some 5.1 music discs. Turns out many music discs do not have well filtered LFE tracks--easily seen using REW's spectrum analyzer. It also turned out that my SSP did not filter the LFE at 120 Hz or the like.

I did some experiments comparing SACD/DVD-A music recordings with the LFE unfiltered, or filtered at 120 or 80 Hz, and compared the results with the 2-ch mixes on those discs. It was pretty obvious that the mixers were listening with a monitor system using an LFE sub filtered at 80 Hz. The match was obviously right, whereas at 120 Hz it was not even close, and not very pleasant. They filtered the LFE sound in the room rather than the signal feeding the recorder.

I did a similar survey of movie soundtracks, and REW showed all were well filtered near 120 Hz at max. Some DTS movies were rolled off lower, like 90 Hz. In listening to these movies with 80 and 120 Hz LFE filters, it was possible in direct A/B to sometimes hear a difference only with the 120 Hz LFE tracks, but using either the 80 or 120 Hz filters sounded great and sounded correct. The impression was that the 80 Hz setting yielded "deeper, tighter" bass than the 120 Hz, and this has been a major reported difference between Dolby and DTS soundtracks since the days of laser discs. Interestingly, DTS HDMA does not employ the 90 Hz filter, so that "advantage" is now gone, even for the core lossy DTS track.

I have my SSP's LFE set for 80 Hz all the time (F/W updated!). It makes a huge benefit for 5.1 music, and a small benefit for movies, so it all sounds great now."

I should emphasise that the generally accepted setting for the LPF of LFE is 120Hz. However, this is one of those 'preference' issues which members may want to experiment with and come to their own conclusions. I have tried it myself and found that I can definitely hear (or feel) a difference between 80Hz and 120Hz for the LPF. 120Hz gives more slam and I feel the gunshots etc more in my chest. But Roger is right - it also adds a touch of boom too. 80Hz gives a little less slam but overall it's tighter. We're talking small, but noticeable differences. It also seems to be movie-dependent - I guess some mixers add more to the LFE channel than others, or more above 80Hz anyway.' "
Excellent post Gary, picked a few great quotes. I’ve read them before as I followed Mark’s guide to try cascading crossovers. I set the LPF on my Rythmik F12G subwoofer to 80hz, and on my Denon 3500, set the LPF of LFE to 80hz. My mains were already at 80hz. Unfortunately I can’t report just yet on any audible differences as my old, little Mirage center channel, is being replaced by a Chane A2.4 speaker, which I just ordered an hour ago. But the logic of the 80hz setting made sense to me, and having those big name audio experts findings, well it cost nothing to try it out. Since I only employ a single sub in a small space, I’m always looking for clean tight bass in music, and clear distinct dialog in movie playback. While a small setting change, it holds promise to both.
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Mic Height Question...

The guide at the beginning of the thread recommends mic positions 7 and 8 be 2-3 inches above ear height. I'm curious as to why a few inches above ear height and not below ear height as well? What is Audyssey's official position on microphone height? Do they recommend ear height for all mic positions or do they recommend varying the height slightly?

Thanks in advance.

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Originally Posted by Bghead8che View Post
The guide at the beginning of the thread recommends mic positions 7 and 8 be 2-3 inches above ear height. I'm curious as to why a few inches above ear height and not below ear height as well? What is Audyssey's official position on microphone height? Do they recommend ear height for all mic positions or do they recommend varying the height slightly?

Thanks in advance.

Hi,

Quite a few Audyssey owners have found that having a couple of mic positions 2" or 3" higher than ear level helps with respect to the overall frequency response and for the overall sound quality. Like yourself, I have wondered why that works. One possible explanation is the way that the pinnae in our ears (the flaps) are shaped. They are designed to funnel sound downward into our ear canals more than upward from below. Evolutionary adaptation to protect us from predators in trees, or attacks from above? Your guess as to why they are shaped that way is as good as mine. But, empirically speaking, having a couple of mic positions above ear level does seem to improve things in many cases.

I do know that if we put the mic much below ear height, a couple of things may happen. First, I believe that we would increase early reflections from a chair or sofa back (or too much absorption, if we use a blanket) if we dropped the mic by a few inches below ear level. Second, we might also have more trouble with rear surround speakers, if the mic were below the chair back for a couple of positions.

Of course, anything involving microphone patterns has a YMMV quality to it, as rooms, speakers, and listeners will all combine to give variable results, so you can certainly experiment to discover whatever works best in your room. I believe that Audyssey manuals recommend keeping all of the positions at ear height, although I think I remember Chris K. saying that he was personally fine with doing a couple of positions a little higher if people wanted to try it.

Incidentally, as noted in the Guide and in the FAQ, the order of the mic positions doesn't matter. I have always just found that adjusting the mic stand upward a little for the last two positions is easier than starting at ear level for #1 , then adjusting upward at some point for a couple of positions, and then dropping the stand back to ear level again for the remainder.

Regards,
Mike

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post #6766 of 6880 Old 07-20-2019, 01:19 AM
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Some (subwoofer) help please……

I told i have some not to bass happy speakers, the Gallo Strada 2 and Adiva SE.
They are set after the Audyssey run:

Fronts 150 Hz
Center 150 Hz
Surround 110 Hz (after putting both in a corner)
SB 120 Hz (Adiva SE)
Front Hight 120 Hz (Kef T101)

So how will these numbers effect the subwoofer, will it try to play up the highest number 150 Hz ?
And will it matter to have a small sub (10 Inch) or big one (say 12-15 Inch) with these high x-over numbers ?

(i do not want to change the Gallo speakers, i like them very much, just to bad of the high x-over, seems "design" has its bad side)

Thanks again !!

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post #6767 of 6880 Old 07-20-2019, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post
[
So how will these numbers effect the subwoofer, will it try to play up the highest number 150 Hz ?
And will it matter to have a small sub (10 Inch) or big one (say 12-15 Inch) with these high x-over numbers ?
Yes. You want to look at the specs to confirm that the sub(s) are specified to perform above the nominal 120Hz top frequency for LFE. You might find that using a pair of smaller subs can give you a FR to 150Hz+ as well as bass power equal to a single larger sub.

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(i do not want to change the Gallo speakers, i like them very much, just to bad of the high x-over, seems "design" has its bad side)
"Style" has its downside.
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post #6768 of 6880 Old 07-20-2019, 09:27 AM
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Would it be possible to "fool" Audyssey in putting the fronts in the corner (te get a lower x-over) and do the first run, then put them back again to the wanted position and do the other 7 runs ?
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post #6769 of 6880 Old 07-20-2019, 01:34 PM
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Would it be possible to "fool" Audyssey in putting the fronts in the corner (te get a lower x-over) and do the first run, then put them back again to the wanted position and do the other 7 runs ?
Yes but that completely defeats the entire purpose of Audyssey.
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post #6770 of 6880 Old 07-20-2019, 01:52 PM
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Yes but that completely defeats the entire purpose of Audyssey.
Why ?
The 7 runs will set the filters for room correction, and on these 7 runs the speakers are in the "correct" position.
Think its the same as running Audyssey various times and getting different results because the mic is not always in the same spot.
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post #6771 of 6880 Old 07-20-2019, 03:52 PM
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Why don't you just leave Audyssey turned off?
You can set your system up anyway you like.
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post #6772 of 6880 Old 07-20-2019, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post
Would it be possible to "fool" Audyssey in putting the fronts in the corner (te get a lower x-over) and do the first run, then put them back again to the wanted position and do the other 7 runs ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post
Why ?
The 7 runs will set the filters for room correction, and on these 7 runs the speakers are in the "correct" position.
Think its the same as running Audyssey various times and getting different results because the mic is not always in the same spot.

Hi Dick,

I gave you the best answers I could when you PMed me. Sometimes, we just don't like the answers we receive, and I understand that.

Here's another one. You could certainly trick Audyssey into EQing your speakers to a lower frequency by putting your speakers closer to a wall or in a corner, and then moving them back to where you want them, post-calibration. In that case, you just wouldn't run Audyssey again.

What you suggested won't work. If you move them and start Audyssey again, it will ignore any previous settings, or findings, and begin again from scratch at that new position. If you pick-up the calibration with mic position 2, all of the filters and the crossovers will be set based on the new positions. Crossovers are set based on all 8 mic positions. Only timing and trim levels are set based on mic position 1. So, this method would simply give you a slightly more screwed-up result that would be similar to doing all 8 mic positions where the speakers are actually going to be.

If, on the other hand, you try the different method I suggested, all of the EQ filters that Audyssey set for those speakers in the bogus position would be wrong when you moved them to their real position. That might, or might not, be a real problem when the speakers tried to play any frequencies at whatever crossovers you set.

There is no reason you can't try this, if you want to, and find out how it sounds. That's essentially the same advice I gave you with respect to lowering your crossovers. You can always try that too, and see how it sounds. If you are looking for someone to be able to tell you in advance how you will like a particular setting, though, I'm afraid it just can't be done.

We all have to try to find the settings, and compromises, that work best in our rooms and for our personal preferences. And, we all have to decide for ourselves to what extent we will follow general rules and best practice principles, with respect to both Audyssey, and for audio in general.

As noted previously, the real problem here is that your speakers don't have very low-extension to start with, due to the 4" woofers and extremely small cabinets. Moving them further away from boundary walls, and having them at some distance from your listening position, exacerbates that fundamental problem. They are simply not very powerful at low-frequencies.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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post #6773 of 6880 Old 07-20-2019, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Dick,

I gave you the best answers I could when you PMed me. Sometimes, we just don't like the answers we receive, and I understand that.

Here's another one. You could certainly trick Audyssey into EQing your speakers to a lower frequency by putting your speakers closer to a wall or in a corner, and then moving them back to where you want them, post-calibration. In that case, you just wouldn't run Audyssey again.

What you suggested won't work. If you move them and start Audyssey again, it will ignore any previous settings, or findings, and begin again from scratch at that new position. If you pick-up the calibration with mic position 2, all of the filters and the crossovers will be set based on the new positions. Crossovers are set based on all 8 mic positions. Only timing and trim levels are set based on mic position 1. So, this method would simply give you a slightly more screwed-up result that would be similar to doing all 8 mic positions where the speakers are actually going to be.

If, on the other hand, you try the different method I suggested, all of the EQ filters that Audyssey set for those speakers in the bogus position would be wrong when you moved them to their real position. That might, or might not, be a real problem when the speakers tried to play any frequencies at whatever crossovers you set.

There is no reason you can't try this, if you want to, and find out how it sounds. That's essentially the same advice I gave you with respect to lowering your crossovers. You can always try that too, and see how it sounds. If you are looking for someone to be able to tell you in advance how you will like a particular setting, though, I'm afraid it just can't be done.

We all have to try to find the settings, and compromises, that work best in our rooms and for our personal preferences. And, we all have to decide for ourselves to what extent we will follow general rules and best practice principles, with respect to both Audyssey, and for audio in general.

As noted previously, the real problem here is that your speakers don't have very low-extension to start with, due to the 4" woofers and extremely small cabinets. Moving them further away from boundary walls, and having them at some distance from your listening position, exacerbates that fundamental problem. They are simply not very powerful at low-frequencies.

Regards,
Mike
Hi Mike,

thanks again, and other repliers, i was hoping Audyssey did x-over in step 1 and not the other 7 steps.

Thanks !
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post #6774 of 6880 Old 07-20-2019, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Henry Lambert View Post
Why don't you just leave Audyssey turned off?
You can set your system up anyway you like.
Could do this, but i do like what Audyssey is doing.
Sound makes a big fall when i turn Audyssey off (even my wife will hear it ) so it has a function in my room
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post #6775 of 6880 Old 07-20-2019, 11:48 PM
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Hi, did a re-run and placed the fronts in the corner just to see if that wil make a change in getting the x-over to drop.

But no, still they are set at 150Hz.

Also had the center close to the wall, but also here 200Hz it is and stays.
Like told these mid/bass drivers are to small to get the x-over to drop.
But the same speakers are in the Surround position and they are set at 110Hz
This wall is from a different material, softer, the front wall is hard wood, think thats changing the x-over.

So, when i change the x-overs (200-150-110Hz) manual to 100Hz or even lower, i thought Audyssey would not sound different any more in the ON and OFF position.
But it still is, and the differents is just as big in the on/off with the high x-over and the manual x-over.
Thought filters would not work any more when i lowered manual the x-over this much.....

>> Should i still look for a "200Hz" subwoofer, or leave the x-over at 100Hz and just buy the one i like...…..

Very happy to have this Audyssey forum !!
Thanks for your thoughts

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post #6776 of 6880 Old 07-21-2019, 07:20 AM
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So, when i change the x-overs (200-150-110Hz) manual to 100Hz or even lower, i thought Audyssey would not sound different any more in the ON and OFF position. But it still is, and the differents is just as big in the on/off with the high x-over and the manual x-over.
Thought filters would not work any more when i lowered manual the x-over this much.....
Sure they work but, in the range between 200-150-110Hz and 100Hz, there will be no EQ. And that range is important.

Quote:
>> Should i still look for a "200Hz" subwoofer, or leave the x-over at 100Hz and just buy the one i like...…..
I would get rid of the Gallo speakers but, since you are married to them, get a sub that will complement them.

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post #6777 of 6880 Old 07-21-2019, 08:12 AM
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Sure they work but, in the range between 200-150-110Hz and 100Hz, there will be no EQ. And that range is important.

I would get rid of the Gallo speakers but, since you are married to them, get a sub that will complement them.
I would like a Klipsch SPL 150, so that one is no good for me as it will do 18-125Hz with the Audyssey settings of 200-150-110Hz ?
Or will this sub just ignore all above 125Hz and i will loos some bass from 125 to 200Hz ?

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post #6778 of 6880 Old 07-21-2019, 09:23 AM
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I would like a Klipsch SPL 150, so that one is no good for me as it will do 18-125Hz with the Audyssey settings of 200-150-110Hz ?
Yes.
Quote:
Or will this sub just ignore all above 125Hz and i will loos some bass from 125 to 200Hz ?
No crossover filter is a brick wall; all roll off the response over the octaves depending on their slope. In this case, it will not "ignore all above 125Hz" but is likely to lose an undetermined amount of the bass from 125-299Hz.

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post #6779 of 6880 Old 07-21-2019, 09:54 AM
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Yes.
No crossover filter is a brick wall; all roll off the response over the octaves depending on their slope. In this case, it will not "ignore all above 125Hz" but is likely to lose an undetermined amount of the bass from 125-299Hz.
If i buy a 200Hz sub and it will (try to) do the 200Hz x-over, think i will hear it play.
If i buy the SPL 150 it will be less placeable du to it will play max 125Hz and start to lose bass much sooner then a 200Hz sub, or am i wrong ?

And thank you for trying to get me on the right track
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post #6780 of 6880 Old 07-21-2019, 04:15 PM
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Part of what you are encountering is Hofmann's Iron Law of speaker design, which states that among the following three desirable properties of a speaker, you can only have two:



Small speaker box (enclosure)



High sensitivity (sometimes called "efficiency")


Good, deep bass


Your main speakers have extremely small enclosures (and the speaker diaphragms themselves are very small, as Mike pointed out). At 90 dB/1w/1m, they have slightly high efficiency in the midrange (usually 500 to 2,000Hz) -- so that's two -- so, according to Hofmann, you can't have deep bass. Audyssey is telling you that in your room, with your speaker placement, and in your listening position, they don't reach down to the 68 dB Gallo specifies without more of a bass decline than 3 dB.



The Klipsch subwoofer is probably pretty good (some others might be better for the $$), but I really don't know what would happen above 120 Hz ... some subwoofers roll off at 38 dB/octave above their upper limit.
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