"Official" Audyssey thread Part II - Page 229 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6841 of 6878 Old 08-08-2019, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
That is quite strange, indeed. I wonder how the Audyssey process is performed when you have your MV set to -80 dB?


What does the Manual of the Marantz SR6011 say about MV setting by the enduser prior to running Audyssey?

Audyssey plays its chirps at the correct volume. Just the Test Tones in the manual section react to the MV setting.
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post #6842 of 6878 Old 08-08-2019, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by fredxr2d2 View Post
Audyssey plays its chirps at the correct volume. Just the Test Tones in the manual section react to the MV setting.

I see. Sorry, seems I misunderstood. So its not the Audyssey chirps that are affected by MV during the calibration process, but the test tones you can use afterward. A-OK.
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post #6843 of 6878 Old 08-08-2019, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by fredxr2d2 View Post
Audyssey plays its chirps at the correct volume. Just the Test Tones in the manual section react to the MV setting.
On my 4520, the Test Tones will react to the MV setting, but it is always set to 0MV when you initialize the tones. This is how it has been for my last two Denons as well. I wonder when/why they decided to change this? Are they trying to make it even more confusing to the end user??
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post #6844 of 6878 Old 08-08-2019, 01:58 PM
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Many of you know this, but I’ll mention it as it seems appropriate here. The Denon “Test tones” are NOT effected by Audyssey filters. So if you use Audyssey and want to check your speaker levels with a separate audio SPL meter, the most accurate way is to run test tones from a disk like “Spears & Munsil HD Benchmark”, then the audio is routed through your Audyssey settings. But BEWARE, not all test tones on some other disks were recorded at -30db. The SM disk actually lists their tones as: Pink Noise -30db. While these test tones are playing, you adjust your MV to “0db”, and then each speaker trim to 75db. This is just if you want to manually set levels or just double check the Audyssey results.
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post #6845 of 6878 Old 08-08-2019, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Are they trying to make it even more confusing to the end user??

Of course they are!


My Marantz tells me to set the MV at 0, then proceeds to do it itself!


I guy I know who has worked in IT, IP, Audio, etc., says that often different people are assigned to write different parts of the same manual, without consultation, and sometimes with no use testing.
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post #6846 of 6878 Old 08-08-2019, 07:17 PM
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So after not being happy with my sound, I reran Audyssey. Everything seemed to work okay but I have a question.
My setup picked up my rear left speaker being closer, it has to be this way due to a wall. Yet Audyssey set that speaker to 0.5 dB louder? It's only about 20 cm closer which is far from ideal I know, but am curious why it would then set it that way. Anything to worry about? Cheers
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post #6847 of 6878 Old 08-09-2019, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by OJ Taylor View Post
So after not being happy with my sound, I reran Audyssey. Everything seemed to work okay but I have a question.
My setup picked up my rear left speaker being closer, it has to be this way due to a wall. Yet Audyssey set that speaker to 0.5 dB louder? It's only about 20 cm closer which is far from ideal I know, but am curious why it would then set it that way. Anything to worry about? Cheers
Is the other surround speaker (the one that is further from the MLP) nearer to a wall or the ceiling? If so, the boundary gain is higher for that speaker and it would be necessary to set that speaker's trim lower.
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post #6848 of 6878 Old 08-09-2019, 02:23 PM
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Hi guys!

Been messing around with Audyssey on my Marantz SR7009 and there's something I just don't get... I have a 5.1 set and when I run Audyssey everything goes smoothly. The speakers are identified correctly.
BUT, when I go to the "Amp Assign", what I see is "7.1ch+Zone2/Zone3"... I wonder why (?)
Shouldn't it be 5.1? Am I missing something?

This always happened when I ran the initial setup, it's not new to me. But this time I decided to ask for your help.
What I always did is set the amp assign to 5.1 and ran calibration all over again. Is this the correct procedure?
Thanks!
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post #6849 of 6878 Old 08-12-2019, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Edi-MC View Post
Hi guys!

Been messing around with Audyssey on my Marantz SR7009 and there's something I just don't get... I have a 5.1 set and when I run Audyssey everything goes smoothly. The speakers are identified correctly.
BUT, when I go to the "Amp Assign", what I see is "7.1ch+Zone2/Zone3"... I wonder why (?)
Shouldn't it be 5.1? Am I missing something?

This always happened when I ran the initial setup, it's not new to me. But this time I decided to ask for your help.
What I always did is set the amp assign to 5.1 and ran calibration all over again. Is this the correct procedure?
Thanks!
7.1 or 5.1 +Zone2/Zone3 are both fine in your configuration. The AVR is just telling you how many amps you have available, although you are only using 5 of the 9 internal amps. The AVR knows that you only have 5 speakers connected and will downmix 7.1 content when necessary.

This begs the question; why get an AVR with so many amps when you aren't using them?
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post #6850 of 6878 Old 08-13-2019, 01:47 AM
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Thanks! Got it!

Regarding your question: you have to ask that to the brand owners/developers.
In the world of AV receivers it seems to be impossible to get good quality amplification and technology without "having to have" a ton of channels/amps.
Even my first Pio (a humble VSX 923) had 7 of them.
So, it's not really a choice one can make is it?

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post #6851 of 6878 Old 08-13-2019, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Edi-MC View Post
Thanks! Got it!

Regarding your question: you have to ask that to the brand owners/developers.
In the world of AV receivers it seems to be impossible to get good quality amplification and technology without "having to have" a ton of channels/amps.
Even my first Pio (a humble VSX 923) had 7 of them.
So, it's not really a choice one can make is it?
Well, you could have saved a bit and gotten the Marantz 7.2 or 5.2 AVR instead.
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post #6852 of 6878 Old 08-13-2019, 10:35 AM
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I had to replace the tweeter and both woofers in my Klipsch center channel. Used original parts sent directly from Klipsch. Would I need to rerun Audyssey?

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post #6853 of 6878 Old 08-13-2019, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by jconjason View Post
I had to replace the tweeter and both woofers in my Klipsch center channel. Used original parts sent directly from Klipsch. Would I need to rerun Audyssey?
Most say absolutely, after some hours of break in.
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post #6854 of 6878 Old 08-13-2019, 12:53 PM
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I had to replace the tweeter and both woofers in my Klipsch center channel
w-what happened?
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post #6855 of 6878 Old 08-13-2019, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Mactavish View Post
Most say absolutely, after some hours of break in.
I figured I would have to but just wanted to check since it's basically the same speaker.
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Originally Posted by anjunadeep View Post
w-what happened?
Well, not entirely sure. The center channel volume would drastically lower to the point where I couldn't hear dialogue, and then it would raise to normal on its own. It was random and happened with all content and inputs. I figured it was the tweeter but Klipsch was nice enough to send a new tweeter as well as both woofers!

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post #6856 of 6878 Old 08-13-2019, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by jconjason View Post
I had to replace the tweeter and both woofers in my Klipsch center channel. Used original parts sent directly from Klipsch. Would I need to rerun Audyssey?

I would. There are sometimes slight variations in drivers, even when the model numbers don't change. My midrange drivers are slightly different in response, and Audyssey fixes that. My front tweeters are nearly perfectly the same, with the traces superimposed. Coincidence?
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post #6857 of 6878 Old 08-14-2019, 08:11 AM
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So I've had my Denon X3400h for a few months now and am really enjoying it. It's definitely a nice upgrade from my AVR-789. I find the Audyssey to be much better, which is to be expected given the upgrade to XT32, even in my small modest setup and before I add any Atmos speakers or upgrade my existing front speakers.

Surprisingly I find the DynamicEQ to not result in nearly the same amount of bass "boominess" as the old receiver did so it's pretty usable now, I only wish there were an option to tell DynamicEQ to only affect the bass response and not touch the surround levels, because I find that the surrounds are still pumped up way too much. I'm surprised this option has yet to be brought forward to selectively decide which parts of DynamicEQ to use, otherwise I'd leave it on all the time.
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post #6858 of 6878 Old 08-14-2019, 08:55 AM
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So I've had my Denon X3400h for a few months now and am really enjoying it. It's definitely a nice upgrade from my AVR-789. I find the Audyssey to be much better, which is to be expected given the upgrade to XT32, even in my small modest setup and before I add any Atmos speakers or upgrade my existing front speakers.

Surprisingly I find the DynamicEQ to not result in nearly the same amount of bass "boominess" as the old receiver did so it's pretty usable now, I only wish there were an option to tell DynamicEQ to only affect the bass response and not touch the surround levels, because I find that the surrounds are still pumped up way too much. I'm surprised this option has yet to be brought forward to selectively decide which parts of DynamicEQ to use, otherwise I'd leave it on all the time.
Yea, I love the bass response. It's nice, clean, and smooth with DEQ. I don't need to add my own boost to the SW trim level afterwards, which seems like everyone else does. I also like how it's curved and not an overall boost.

For the surrounds (and top rears), I just re-balance them to the rest of the speakers. We know DEQ boosts about 1dB per -5 from reference level...so since I do majority of my watching at -10, I just decrease them by 2dB and double check with test tones from a disc. It's much nicer that way. If I listen at lower levels, like -15, oh well...it's not critical and I don't feel like I notice a 1dB difference the same way I start noticing it with 2dB.
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post #6859 of 6878 Old 08-14-2019, 09:25 AM
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Yea, I love the bass response. It's nice, clean, and smooth with DEQ. I don't need to add my own boost to the SW trim level afterwards, which seems like everyone else does. I also like how it's curved and not an overall boost.

For the surrounds (and top rears), I just re-balance them to the rest of the speakers. We know DEQ boosts about 1dB per -5 from reference level...so since I do majority of my watching at -10, I just decrease them by 2dB and double check with test tones from a disc. It's much nicer that way. If I listen at lower levels, like -15, oh well...it's not critical and I don't feel like I notice a 1dB difference the same way I start noticing it with 2dB.
This would work if I didn't have one source that requires much lower volume on the receiver than everything else. That is my HTPC I have to have the receiver turned down to -23db or so. All my other sources are about the same around -10db. I only game on my HTPC, it's not used for video playback, but I guess its output is louder natively since i leave the Windows volume slider at 100% because I'm afraid of the HTPC/Windows itself introducing unwanted attenuation.
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post #6860 of 6878 Old 08-14-2019, 10:42 AM
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This would work if I didn't have one source that requires much lower volume on the receiver than everything else. That is my HTPC I have to have the receiver turned down to -23db or so. All my other sources are about the same around -10db. I only game on my HTPC, it's not used for video playback, but I guess its output is louder natively since i leave the Windows volume slider at 100% because I'm afraid of the HTPC/Windows itself introducing unwanted attenuation.
You can adjust the level for different sources in the AVR.

http://manuals.denon.com/AVRX3400H/N...SYyvbqibdw.php
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post #6861 of 6878 Old 08-14-2019, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by pbz06 View Post
Yea, I love the bass response. It's nice, clean, and smooth with DEQ. I don't need to add my own boost to the SW trim level afterwards, which seems like everyone else does. I also like how it's curved and not an overall boost.

For the surrounds (and top rears), I just re-balance them to the rest of the speakers. We know DEQ boosts about 1dB per -5 from reference level...so since I do majority of my watching at -10, I just decrease them by 2dB and double check with test tones from a disc. It's much nicer that way. If I listen at lower levels, like -15, oh well...it's not critical and I don't feel like I notice a 1dB difference the same way I start noticing it with 2dB.
Yeah my biggest beef with DEQ is what it doesn’t to surrounds, especially now with Atmos, it drowns them out. But I also find the bass sometimes is too much.
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post #6862 of 6878 Old 08-14-2019, 02:10 PM
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For a given SPL, it's likely that surrounds produce more distortion than mains (or at least more distortion than the LF and RF speakers). Distortion can sound like "loud," to the brain. Sensitivity ("efficiency") of surrounds is liable to be lower, so they need more power in watts to produce a given SPL, and their power handling is often lower than that of the mains. Some manufacturers succumbed to this cost and size saving temptation in the early days of Home Theater, when it was hoped that the highest SPL would be reserved for the sub and the front channels (and it still generally is). But mixers and filmmakers have their temptations, too, and very high SPL above subwoofer range gets in to surrounds. I'm thinking of The Grey, gun and cannon fire, rockets taking off, etc. in a number of films, and the leading edge -- above sub crossover -- of many special effects. Could there be a worse combination of variables? Yes. Add in user reluctance to use high crossovers, as high as 110 or 120 Hz, even when Audyssey recommends them (often when surrounds are deprived of boundary gain in the room, and had a high F3 even in an anechoic chamber), and when DEQ not only turns up the bass (above crossover to sub) but also turns up the overall SPL of the surrounds, as it does.
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post #6863 of 6878 Old 08-14-2019, 03:44 PM
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I set my mains, center and surrounds at 100hz, surround rears and Atmos modules at 150hz. I just don’t like my surrounds and bass to overpower my mains and center which is exactly what DEQ. I think it’s a good tool if you listen at really low volumes but I have dedicated treated room so I just don’t see the need now.

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post #6864 of 6878 Old 08-14-2019, 05:52 PM
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I set my mains, center and surrounds at 100hz, surround rears and Atmos modules at 150hz. I just don’t like my surrounds and bass to overpower my mains and center which is exactly what DEQ. I think it’s a good tool if you listen at really low volumes but I have dedicated treated room so I just don’t see the need now.
The higher the volume, the less impact DEQ has. Either way, I see the value in preferring balanced sound in the surrounds (I'm one of them)...hence why I re-balance them to my most common listening level (-10). I don't feel like I lose my perception of volume from my surrounds because they are closer to me and facing directly at me. I do notice the bass perception decrease from reference, which is why I do prefer DEQ for the bass. I think that's why everyone also recommends to increase sub trim after Audyssey because they feel like "omg it neutered my sub" when in reality it balanced it, but our perception of it is less when not listening to reference. To me, it "feels" balanced with DEQ and remains clean and smooth.

I don't think it's really a treated vs non-treated. It doesn't really "alter" the sound beyond make adjustments to dB. When I tested vigorously, using DEQ Off + subwoofer +4.5 (to make up for the 2.2dB per -5 volume), sounded identical to DEQ On + no subwoofer adjustment. Same with the surrounds and top rears. I didn't get any muddiness, or lack of clarity...worst case, it was "oh, my surrounds appear to be higher, let me decrease "

It's mostly a preference thing. I love my speakers and the clarity they have in the high end, and I don't hear it being altered with DEQ or full/limited.
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post #6865 of 6878 Old 08-14-2019, 06:22 PM
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The higher the volume, the less impact DEQ has. Either way, I see the value in preferring balanced sound in the surrounds (I'm one of them)...hence why I re-balance them to my most common listening level (-10). I don't feel like I lose my perception of volume from my surrounds because they are closer to me and facing directly at me. I do notice the bass perception decrease from reference, which is why I do prefer DEQ for the bass. I think that's why everyone also recommends to increase sub trim after Audyssey because they feel like "omg it neutered my sub" when in reality it balanced it, but our perception of it is less when not listening to reference. To me, it "feels" balanced with DEQ and remains clean and smooth.

I don't think it's really a treated vs non-treated. It doesn't really "alter" the sound beyond make adjustments to dB. When I tested vigorously, using DEQ Off + subwoofer +4.5 (to make up for the 2.2dB per -5 volume), sounded identical to DEQ On + no subwoofer adjustment. Same with the surrounds and top rears. I didn't get any muddiness, or lack of clarity...worst case, it was "oh, my surrounds appear to be higher, let me decrease "

It's mostly a preference thing. I love my speakers and the clarity they have in the high end, and I don't hear it being altered with DEQ or full/limited.
Yeah when I said treated I was referring to full spectrum. My room has a lot of absorption so it doesn’t benefit from a high frequency rolloff. It sounds very clear in Reference but limiting EQ to bass really opens up the top end. I’ve always set my subs flat since it sounds more natural or balanced to my ears. I started using DEQ when I was living in apartments years ago and continued in my dedicated room. At first I felt it sounded thin but I just needed some time to get used to it, now it sounds excellent.

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post #6866 of 6878 Old 08-14-2019, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
For a given SPL, it's likely that surrounds produce more distortion than mains (or at least more distortion than the LF and RF speakers). Distortion can sound like "loud," to the brain. Sensitivity ("efficiency") of surrounds is liable to be lower, so they need more power in watts to produce a given SPL, and their power handling is often lower than that of the mains. Some manufacturers succumbed to this cost and size saving temptation in the early days of Home Theater, when it was hoped that the highest SPL would be reserved for the sub and the front channels (and it still generally is). But mixers and filmmakers have their temptations, too, and very high SPL above subwoofer range gets in to surrounds. I'm thinking of The Grey, gun and cannon fire, rockets taking off, etc. in a number of films, and the leading edge -- above sub crossover -- of many special effects. Could there be a worse combination of variables? Yes. Add in user reluctance to use high crossovers, as high as 110 or 120 Hz, even when Audyssey recommends them (often when surrounds are deprived of boundary gain in the room, and had a high F3 even in an anechoic chamber), and when DEQ not only turns up the bass (above crossover to sub) but also turns up the overall SPL of the surrounds, as it does.
“and when DEQ not only turns up the bass (above crossover to sub) but also turns up the overall SPL of the surrounds, as it does”

Interesting, I didn’t realize that the added bass DEQ uses at lower volumes, is added but does not respect the crossovers one sets. Makes sense, just never made the connection.

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post #6867 of 6878 Old 08-14-2019, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mactavish View Post
“and when DEQ not only turns up the bass (above crossover to sub) but also turns up the overall SPL of the surrounds, as it does”

Interesting, I didn’t realize that the added bass DEQ uses at lower volumes, is added but does not respect the crossovers one sets. Makes sense, just never made the connection.

I'm not sure I know what you mean. It does respect the crossovers you set in that it doesn't change them, ignore them, or bypass them. But the Audyssey people, in consultation with professional sound mixers, decided that the surrounds should be turned up whenever DEQ is used. That would be in addition to the bass (and subtle treble, but not midrange) boost that DEQ provides at lower volumes to the surrounds, mains and (bass only, naturally) to the sub.
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post #6868 of 6878 Old 08-14-2019, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
I'm not sure I know what you mean. It does respect the crossovers you set in that it doesn't change them, ignore them, or bypass them. But the Audyssey people, in consultation with professional sound mixers, decided that the surrounds should be turned up whenever DEQ is used. That would be in addition to the bass (and subtle treble, but not midrange) boost that DEQ provides at lower volumes to the surrounds, mains and (bass only, naturally) to the sub.
Sorry, I’m tired, read it again and see you meant the opposite. DEQ only adds bass ABOVE, the crossover, thus respecting you set crossovers for all channels. Thanks, time for bed........

HDTV: Panasonic P55VT50 Plasma
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post #6869 of 6878 Old 08-15-2019, 02:40 AM
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To try and eliminate the confusion, here's an actual in-room measurement comparison:





That's with the volume set to -20 and DEQ off vs DEQ on set to Ref Level Offset of 0 (maximum setting) at the same volume. Crossover to sub was 80 hz.



As you can see, it's a smooth increase in bass starting from about 500 hz. It boosts both the speaker and the sub, keeping the same smooth blend through the crossover. Boosting the sub alone, or the speaker alone would not sound very good.


For those who find that "too much," please remember it is adjustable. Here's the same comparison with the reference level offset of 5, 10 and 15 added.





As you can see, at a volume setting of -20 and reference level offset of -15, it's doing very little.
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post #6870 of 6878 Old 08-15-2019, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon AA View Post
To try and eliminate the confusion, here's an actual in-room measurement comparison:





That's with the volume set to -20 and DEQ off vs DEQ on set to Ref Level Offset of 0 (maximum setting) at the same volume. Crossover to sub was 80 hz.



As you can see, it's a smooth increase in bass starting from about 500 hz. It boosts both the speaker and the sub, keeping the same smooth blend through the crossover. Boosting the sub alone, or the speaker alone would not sound very good.


For those who find that "too much," please remember it is adjustable. Here's the same comparison with the reference level offset of 5, 10 and 15 added.





As you can see, at a volume setting of -20 and reference level offset of -15, it's doing very little.

Excellent presentation Jon AA, thanks for sharing.


Now, if you'd like to see the 2 tier operation of DEQ you may need to do a bit more homework. But what is this 2 tier operation of DEQ? Many of us know already that at any given MV setting DEQ applies the 1st tier of boost, yet it does a second compensation at any given MV setting as the passage advances and shows loud and soft parts. This means the softer the material the more boost is applied by DEQ.

You may consider the following measurement series:

1. Set MV to -20 dB and leave it there.
2. Take four measurements with the input signal at 0, -10, -20, -30 dB
3. The lower the input signal the more boost will be applied by DEQ.
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Last edited by mogorf; 08-16-2019 at 12:30 AM.
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