"Official" Audyssey thread Part II - Page 230 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6871 of 7169 Old 08-15-2019, 06:12 PM
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I'm unaware of any changes the DEQ makes based upon input signal. As far as I know it's based upon your Reference Level Offset setting and you Main Volume setting only. Here are the same two comparisons with the master volume set to -30 db:








With the lower volume setting, it does more compensation, which makes sense. Maybe next time I have the measuring gear out I'll see if changing the input signal level changes anything, but I'd be surprised if it did. That'd be pretty complex.
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post #6872 of 7169 Old 08-15-2019, 08:40 PM
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Is there any users here who are using Dirac? I’m curious how they compare. I find it curious that NAD AVR’s don’t have any features like DEQ but users seem to really love the low end. DEQ pumps up bass and surrounds too much for me. Especially the surrounds.

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post #6873 of 7169 Old 08-15-2019, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rosstg View Post
Is there any users here who are using Dirac? I’m curious how they compare. I find it curious that NAD AVR’s don’t have any features like DEQ but users seem to really love the low end. DEQ pumps up bass and surrounds too much for me. Especially the surrounds.
Everyone perceives bass differently, and also like different amounts in general. Some people boost the subwoofer by 2-3dB, others by 5-6db. Others like to enable DEQ, others don't. Some that do, like to also add more on top of DEQ. I like having the options; it's easy enough to disable DEQ. I also like being able to play with MRC, rolloff targets, personal house curves, limiting correction to any frequency I want.

If i had a treated dedicated room, I'd probably stick with "flat". My room is on the more reflective side (I'm guessing), so I prefer Reference with MRC off and target roll-off 2. I like the little amount of bass DEQ adds at my -10 listening level (which is equivalent to what I would do anyway if I had it off with sub +4)...but with DEQ, I can listen at low volumes too.
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post #6874 of 7169 Old 08-16-2019, 12:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon AA View Post
I'm unaware of any changes the DEQ makes based upon input signal. As far as I know it's based upon your Reference Level Offset setting and you Main Volume setting only. Here are the same two comparisons with the master volume set to -30 db:


With the lower volume setting, it does more compensation, which makes sense. Maybe next time I have the measuring gear out I'll see if changing the input signal level changes anything, but I'd be surprised if it did. That'd be pretty complex.

Chris Kyriakakis/ author of Audyssey says:

"One goal of DEQ is to maintain the same perceived spectral balance when listening at levels lower than those used during the mix. A violin, for example, is playing a wide range of notes and it is mixed so that every passage is at a given balance with the other instruments. When you turn the volume down the lower notes of the violin will start to be perceived softer in level than the higher notes for that same passage.

The overall perception of the violin relative to other instruments playing along with it will also be perceived differently. So, with the static part of Dynamic EQ we are trying to make spectral adjustments that follow a set of static curves.

The dynamic part of Dynamic EQ adds one more level of detail: it looks at the moment-by-moment variations in the content loudness and compares them to the perceptual model. Based on that information it determines how "loud" that passage will be perceived and then, by knowing how loud it was perceived during the mix, it makes a secondary adjustment. This secondary adjustment is, well... secondary and changes continuously as the signal is playing."

Is it complex? Yes it is, but that's how DEQ works. Please be surprised!
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post #6875 of 7169 Old 08-16-2019, 11:41 AM
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Interesting, I had not seen that before. Is that a recent quote? Anyway, thanks for bringing it to my attention. Learn something new every day.


I'm not sure how I feel about it conceptually though. Sounds a little "too clever by half" to me. I'll definitely try messing around with it next time I'm in the measuring mood.
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post #6876 of 7169 Old 08-16-2019, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon AA View Post
Interesting, I had not seen that before. Is that a recent quote? Anyway, thanks for bringing it to my attention. Learn something new every day.


I'm not sure how I feel about it conceptually though. Sounds a little "too clever by half" to me. I'll definitely try messing around with it next time I'm in the measuring mood.

Hi, glad to help you with some in-depths on DEQ. Actually DEQ works the way described from the beginning.

Should you be interested, please click on the "Audyssey Quotes" in my sig, I've collected a huge info-base mostly from discussions with Chris Kyriakakis from the time he was a member here and some other quotes from Audyssey Tech Talk on Facebook. Chris K. is there so you may feel free to get in touch with him. He's a very helpful person.
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post #6877 of 7169 Old 08-16-2019, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by pbz06 View Post
Everyone perceives bass differently, and also like different amounts in general. Some people boost the subwoofer by 2-3dB, others by 5-6db. Others like to enable DEQ, others don't. Some that do, like to also add more on top of DEQ. I like having the options; it's easy enough to disable DEQ. I also like being able to play with MRC, rolloff targets, personal house curves, limiting correction to any frequency I want.

If i had a treated dedicated room, I'd probably stick with "flat". My room is on the more reflective side (I'm guessing), so I prefer Reference with MRC off and target roll-off 2. I like the little amount of bass DEQ adds at my -10 listening level (which is equivalent to what I would do anyway if I had it off with sub +4)...but with DEQ, I can listen at low volumes too.
For sure. Bass is subjective. I don’t like when it calls attention to itself which is why I like it Flat. I just watched Endgame and Iron Man in UHD the bass was excellent in my room. Balanced, natural, detailed and impactful. With a MultiEQ limited to 300hz the detail in the highs was spectacular.

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post #6878 of 7169 Old 08-16-2019, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Chris Kyriakakis/ author of Audyssey says:

"One goal of DEQ is to maintain the same perceived spectral balance when listening at levels lower than those used during the mix. A violin, for example, is playing a wide range of notes and it is mixed so that every passage is at a given balance with the other instruments. When you turn the volume down the lower notes of the violin will start to be perceived softer in level than the higher notes for that same passage.

The overall perception of the violin relative to other instruments playing along with it will also be perceived differently. So, with the static part of Dynamic EQ we are trying to make spectral adjustments that follow a set of static curves.

The dynamic part of Dynamic EQ adds one more level of detail: it looks at the moment-by-moment variations in the content loudness and compares them to the perceptual model. Based on that information it determines how "loud" that passage will be perceived and then, by knowing how loud it was perceived during the mix, it makes a secondary adjustment. This secondary adjustment is, well... secondary and changes continuously as the signal is playing."

Is it complex? Yes it is, but that's how DEQ works. Please be surprised!
Since MV is a major factor on how much effect DEQ adds, as well as having some user control over it with the level offset, I’m wondering how that whole scheme is then effected by using the Denon setting of “input source level”?

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post #6879 of 7169 Old 08-20-2019, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Hi, glad to help you .....

Should you be interested, please click on the "Audyssey Quotes" in my sig, I've collected a huge info-base mostly from discussions with Chris Kyriakakis from the time he was a member here and some other quotes from Audyssey Tech Talk on Facebook. .....
This is a great collection! Thank you for compiling this.

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post #6880 of 7169 Old 08-21-2019, 05:38 AM
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This is a great collection! Thank you for compiling this.

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post #6881 of 7169 Old 08-26-2019, 02:15 PM
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Is there subwoofer correction in MultEq (NR 1609 receiver)? Reading the FAQ, it appears that there is, but why does the receiver not include the Equalization graph?



I can see the SUB graph in MultEQ editor app. I presume that it was transferred to the AVR, but I cannot see it on the AVR. Am I correct?
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post #6882 of 7169 Old 08-26-2019, 05:39 PM
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Every version of Audyssey does subwoofer correction. The graphs just show you what response curve Audyssey hoped to produce, but the corrections are there regardless of the graph.
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post #6883 of 7169 Old 08-27-2019, 05:58 PM
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Is there a way to get Audyssey XT32 on a Denon 6400H to not EQ my subs, so that I can do it myself with a MiniDSP? It does a great job with my mains, settings levels, time aligning the subs with the mains, but my subs it seems to over EQ. I have a bunch of room gain down low and it does a ~8dB cut with a pretty wide Q i'd rather leave in...
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post #6884 of 7169 Old 08-28-2019, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by anjunadeep View Post
Is there a way to get Audyssey XT32 on a Denon 6400H to not EQ my subs, so that I can do it myself with a MiniDSP? It does a great job with my mains, settings levels, time aligning the subs with the mains, but my subs it seems to over EQ. I have a bunch of room gain down low and it does a ~8dB cut with a pretty wide Q i'd rather leave in...
You can do it with the Multeq Editor app. Let Audyssey run and collect the data. Then you can select the frequency range for correction from "MultEQ Filter Frequency Range" and put the lowest possible value for the cutoff for Subwoofer.
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post #6885 of 7169 Old 08-28-2019, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by codwapeace View Post
You can do it with the Multeq Editor app. Let Audyssey run and collect the data. Then you can select the frequency range for correction from "MultEQ Filter Frequency Range" and put the lowest possible value for the cutoff for Subwoofer.
Thanks. I move this slider to 20Hz (minimum it will go) and I should be golden?
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post #6886 of 7169 Old 08-28-2019, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by anjunadeep View Post
Is there a way to get Audyssey XT32 on a Denon 6400H to not EQ my subs, so that I can do it myself with a MiniDSP? It does a great job with my mains, settings levels, time aligning the subs with the mains, but my subs it seems to over EQ. I have a bunch of room gain down low and it does a ~8dB cut with a pretty wide Q i'd rather leave in...
Not without turning Audyssey off. AFAIK, you cannot set a lower limit for correction with the app, only an upper limit.


Quote:
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You can do it with the Multeq Editor app. Let Audyssey run and collect the data. Then you can select the frequency range for correction from "MultEQ Filter Frequency Range" and put the lowest possible value for the cutoff for Subwoofer.
Wouldn't that essentially be the same as turning Audyssey off??
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post #6887 of 7169 Old 08-28-2019, 10:43 AM
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Not without turning Audyssey off. AFAIK, you cannot set a lower limit for correction with the app, only an upper limit.




Wouldn't that essentially be the same as turning Audyssey off??
You can set the filter range per channel or channel pair. If you do it for just the sub channel, it would effectively be turning audyssey off for the subwoofer only.
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Thanks. I move this slider to 20Hz (minimum it will go) and I should be golden?
Yes. You already have the app. Great!
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Not without turning Audyssey off. AFAIK, you cannot set a lower limit for correction with the app, only an upper limit.




Wouldn't that essentially be the same as turning Audyssey off??
If you set the upper limit equal to the lower limit of correction (20 hz for sub), you get zero correction.
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post #6890 of 7169 Old 08-28-2019, 11:48 AM
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Jeeeez...... I just wish the app was compatible with my SR7009!!
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post #6891 of 7169 Old 08-28-2019, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbaucom View Post
You can set the filter range per channel or channel pair. If you do it for just the sub channel, it would effectively be turning audyssey off for the subwoofer only.
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Originally Posted by codwapeace View Post
If you set the upper limit equal to the lower limit of correction (20 hz for sub), you get zero correction.
Thanks for the clarification guys! I stand corrected.
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post #6892 of 7169 Old 08-28-2019, 12:18 PM
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If you set the upper limit equal to the lower limit of correction (20 hz for sub), you get zero correction.
Yes, but unless I'm reading it wrong he wants to EQ above a certain frequency for his mains.
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post #6893 of 7169 Old 08-28-2019, 01:08 PM
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Yes. You already have the app. Great!
Oh yeah that was day one haha. The app is a must in my opinion, it's a huge improvement ergonomically besides the extra functions. Thanks for the help!
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post #6894 of 7169 Old 08-28-2019, 01:10 PM
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Yes, but unless I'm reading it wrong he wants to EQ above a certain frequency for his mains.
I just want Audyssey to ignore my LFE channel so I can use the MiniDSP instead. Audyssey is getting tripped up with some of my bass and the MiniDSP + REW I'm able to correct it better. I still want Audyssey to time align my subs and mains, EQ my mains, set my distances (or delay), set the levels for my mains, etc.
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post #6895 of 7169 Old 08-28-2019, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by anjunadeep View Post
I just want Audyssey to ignore my LFE channel so I can use the MiniDSP instead. Audyssey is getting tripped up with some of my bass and the MiniDSP + REW I'm able to correct it better. I still want Audyssey to time align my subs and mains, EQ my mains, set my distances (or delay), set the levels for my mains, etc.

Hi, since I'm not familiar with MiniDSP, allow me to ask how many mic positions do you use during measurement of the subwoofer? Thx.
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post #6896 of 7169 Old 08-28-2019, 03:49 PM
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3 Subwoofer Connection Best Practices

I have a Denon AVR-X4400H driving a 5.3.2 Atmos configuration. My question is about the three subwoofer connections to the Denon AVR. Two of the subs are SVS PB-1000's and the third is a Klipsch R-100SW. I have the SVS's in the front of the room next to the F/L and F/R mains. They are connected to the AVR using a Y adapter into the first sub pre out. The Klipsch is behind the MLP and connected to the second sub pre out. Is there a better way to connect the subs to the AVR? Also I moved a few things around and need to run Audyssey again. I would also like to know if there are any special steps to take when running Audyssey this time to get the different branded subs to play well with each other and integrate with the mains?

Spoiler!
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post #6897 of 7169 Old 08-28-2019, 04:28 PM
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I have a Denon AVR-X4400H driving a 5.3.2 Atmos configuration. My question is about the three subwoofer connections to the Denon AVR. Two of the subs are SVS PB-1000's and the third is a Klipsch R-100SW. I have the SVS's in the front of the room next to the F/L and F/R mains. They are connected to the AVR using a Y adapter into the first sub pre out. The Klipsch is behind the MLP and connected to the second sub pre out. Is there a better way to connect the subs to the AVR? Also I moved a few things around and need to run Audyssey again. I would also like to know if there are any special steps to take when running Audyssey this time to get the different branded subs to play well with each other and integrate with the mains?
I would just use the two PB1000s and sell the Klipsch.

Running the Klipsch with the SVSs you are only going to have trouble. The Klipsch is tuned much higher than the SVS subs and consequently you will be cancelling out some important low frequencies, essentially neutering the SVS subs response below 30hz or so. Not to mention that setting up such disparate subs without REW and a MiniDSP would be an exercise in futility, IMO.

I would leave one SVS up front and place the other where you now have the Klipsch and call it good.
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post #6898 of 7169 Old 08-28-2019, 04:30 PM
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anjunadeep,


Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Hi, since I'm not familiar with MiniDSP, allow me to ask how many mic positions do you use during measurement of the subwoofer? Thx.

That's my question, too.


As I understand it, one mic position won't do the job, or at least won't do the job very well, unless you have a room with modes of very low (inconsequential) amplitude, or multiple subwoofers optimally placed. Move your head a little, or change seats, and the frequency response will be different. Earlier on this forum we joked about an audiophile head clamp that would help a sole listener stay within the EQ zone correctable by data from one mic. An engineer I respect answered my question concerning "how many mic positions?" by saying "Good question -- probably at least 3." Audyssey obviously thinks 8 positions will be O.K., but then they add in their proprietary "fuzzy logic" substitute for an average, arguably an improvement. Some proud victims of OCD (like me) will more or less (anxiously) trust Audyssey, and its 8 mic positions, for the overall curve smoothing, then turn up the subwoofer to taste. Of course, to EQ for an audience of more than one listener, one must bounce from seat to seat to confirm that the bass is about right from each seat, and across a decent sample of bass frequencies. This can be amusing to onlookers, so it's best done alone.
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post #6899 of 7169 Old 08-28-2019, 07:18 PM
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Hi, since I'm not familiar with MiniDSP, allow me to ask how many mic positions do you use during measurement of the subwoofer? Thx.
Quote:
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anjunadeep,

That's my question, too.

As I understand it, one mic position won't do the job, or at least won't do the job very well, unless you have a room with modes of very low (inconsequential) amplitude, or multiple subwoofers optimally placed. Move your head a little, or change seats, and the frequency response will be different. Earlier on this forum we joked about an audiophile head clamp that would help a sole listener stay within the EQ zone correctable by data from one mic. An engineer I respect answered my question concerning "how many mic positions?" by saying "Good question -- probably at least 3." Audyssey obviously thinks 8 positions will be O.K., but then they add in their proprietary "fuzzy logic" substitute for an average, arguably an improvement. Some proud victims of OCD (like me) will more or less (anxiously) trust Audyssey, and its 8 mic positions, for the overall curve smoothing, then turn up the subwoofer to taste. Of course, to EQ for an audience of more than one listener, one must bounce from seat to seat to confirm that the bass is about right from each seat, and across a decent sample of bass frequencies. This can be amusing to onlookers, so it's best done alone.

REW (what I use to get the measurements to use with the MiniDSP) it depends on what I'm trying to do, and Audyssey I always take a grid. I'm mostly concerned about just my seating position, but Audyssey does better if it gets a bit of a scope of the room so after the first main listening position measurement (this is critical because that's when Audyssey grabs its distance and delay information) I move it around in a grid of about 1.5ft increments. I take all eight measurements. Some people go wider if they are concerned about more seats, but, you have to play with it a bit and it's a judgement call. If it's normally you and your girlfriend sitting in the sweet spot love seat, then I'd probably just concentrate in that area to optimize in a reasonable area but not compromise for seats that aren't often used. If you have a big group over, yeah some people will get a non-optimum seat but they won't care as long as it isn't really really bad (like being crammed up against the back wall or something where the bass is so loud they can't hear the dialog).

For REW, I do a mix of single measurements to get started and then taking measurements in a grid like with Audyssey (MLP, left of MLP, right of MLP, those three spots about 1.5ft in front, then two spots on either side behind the MLP...so total of 8 positions), but I pay attention to how much things are moving around. When tweaking placements often one or two measurements is enough to see if you are making progress, you don't need to take a ton of measurements every time. Then when you think you have a great spot you can take a bit of a grid again and average it. I find that this is working well when keeping within a reasonably tight listening area for two people. If you are trying to EQ for a much wider area than yeah you probably need to use a combination of averaging and specific measurements to see if you are compromising one seat you care about too much to benefit the average. The wider the area, tougher the compromises, most of the time.

I recommend not trusting Audyssey if you don't have to though, at least get REW and a UMIK and see what it is doing to make sure it passes the sniff test. The reason I'm wanting to avoid Audyssey EQing my bass is because it just happens to be getting confused and making some bad decisions that cost a lot of headroom. It's doing fine elsewhere though, so, keep what we like and remove what we don't.
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post #6900 of 7169 Old 08-29-2019, 03:08 AM
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Originally Posted by anjunadeep View Post
REW (what I use to get the measurements to use with the MiniDSP) it depends on what I'm trying to do, and Audyssey I always take a grid. I'm mostly concerned about just my seating position, but Audyssey does better if it gets a bit of a scope of the room so after the first main listening position measurement (this is critical because that's when Audyssey grabs its distance and delay information) I move it around in a grid of about 1.5ft increments. I take all eight measurements. Some people go wider if they are concerned about more seats, but, you have to play with it a bit and it's a judgement call. If it's normally you and your girlfriend sitting in the sweet spot love seat, then I'd probably just concentrate in that area to optimize in a reasonable area but not compromise for seats that aren't often used. If you have a big group over, yeah some people will get a non-optimum seat but they won't care as long as it isn't really really bad (like being crammed up against the back wall or something where the bass is so loud they can't hear the dialog).

For REW, I do a mix of single measurements to get started and then taking measurements in a grid like with Audyssey (MLP, left of MLP, right of MLP, those three spots about 1.5ft in front, then two spots on either side behind the MLP...so total of 8 positions), but I pay attention to how much things are moving around. When tweaking placements often one or two measurements is enough to see if you are making progress, you don't need to take a ton of measurements every time. Then when you think you have a great spot you can take a bit of a grid again and average it. I find that this is working well when keeping within a reasonably tight listening area for two people. If you are trying to EQ for a much wider area than yeah you probably need to use a combination of averaging and specific measurements to see if you are compromising one seat you care about too much to benefit the average. The wider the area, tougher the compromises, most of the time.

I recommend not trusting Audyssey if you don't have to though, at least get REW and a UMIK and see what it is doing to make sure it passes the sniff test. The reason I'm wanting to avoid Audyssey EQing my bass is because it just happens to be getting confused and making some bad decisions that cost a lot of headroom. It's doing fine elsewhere though, so, keep what we like and remove what we don't.

Thanks. Care to expand a bit on this part:"...it just happens to be getting confused and making some bad decisions that cost a lot of headroom." What are those "bad decisions" you are experiencing with Audyssey in the subwoofer channel and what effect do they have on headroom? Thanks again.
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