"Official" Audyssey thread Part II - Page 236 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #7051 of 7146 Old 10-15-2019, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
For instance, according to SMPTE RP 200, in a room size of <1500^3, only 76db is equivalent to the 85db we would experience in a commercial cinema. It's not until home theaters increase in size to >20,000^3 that 85db in a home theater has the same perceptual loudness as 85db in a commercial theater. (Commercial cinemas are much larger than 20,000^3.) That's why theatrical releases are often mixed much louder than HT releases.
Assuming it's cubic feet, then an Audyssey-calibrated system in my 12'x13' should have the master volume set at around -11 or so to play a movie at reference level. Goodbye, my remaining hearing...hello, hearing aids...
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post #7052 of 7146 Old 10-15-2019, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by pbarach View Post
Assuming it's cubic feet, then an Audyssey-calibrated system in my 12'x13' should have the master volume set at around -11 or so to play a movie at reference level. Goodbye, my remaining hearing...hello, hearing aids...

I hear you, or at least I would hear you if I hadn't tried to listen at Reference.

Actually, the SMPTE standard isn't encouraging us to listen at Reference volumes. The standard was developed for film mixers, so that there could be uniform standards regarding perceived loudness. And, I was just offering it as an explanation for why most of us don't like to listen as loudly in small rooms as we might in larger rooms.

Speaking personally, I have no interest at all in listening at Reference, whether it is calculated at the original 85db nominal average, or at an adjusted volume level based on the size of the room. I listen at a volume level which is comfortable for me, depending on the content and on my mood at that moment. And, my listening level is never equivalent to Reference, even though I have a large room and pretty good acoustic treatments. (I actually don't listen even as loudly as I did a few years ago, because I started to get concerned about doing cumulative damage to my hearing.)

As far as I am concerned, we should all just listen at whatever volume levels we choose. Some of us will like (and tolerate) much louder volume levels than others will, and that's okay too. Audyssey and SMPTE will just help all of us to understand our own listening levels, relative to Dolby/THX standards. And, as Feri noted, those numbers are really only relevant for 5.1 or higher movies anyway, because "Reference" has no relationship to music.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #7053 of 7146 Old 10-15-2019, 07:00 PM
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Small room size, liveness, early reflections, and distortion in the audio can make the sound seem like it is higher in sound pressure level (SPL), than it really is.


[Instead of printing the THX room size/SPL chart I intended, what I got was an alphanumeric character salad about a mile long. What causes that?]



I'll just include two bits of info, instead.


For a big theater or hall (20,000 cu.ft. to >>>20,000 cu.ft.), Reference level (arbitrary) is 85 dB; for a room 1,500 cu.ft to 4,999 cu.ft. what sounds like reference level is only 78 dB.
So, nominal set-up level (mistakenly called "average" nearly everywhere) to produce Reference is 85 dB in a commercial cinema. In a room the size of mine (4,257cu.ft.) a level that would sound like their Reference level would be approximately 78 dB. That's within 2 dB of the level Mike quoted from SMPTE, but he was citing a room the next size down from mine.

Setting the Main Volume Control by ear to a realistic dialogue level, I usually end up at 5 to 7 dB below Reference. As can be seen from the figures above, 7 dB down would put me at what sounds like Reference level in my size room. It does sound like the SPL in a good commercial theater, and is "full bodied" and "robust," but not "too loud" for me.
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post #7054 of 7146 Old 10-16-2019, 05:57 PM
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I should add to the above that in my 4,257 cu.ft..room there are probably instantaneous peaks (leading edges) of 98 to 100 dB through some or all of the main speakers. The subwoofer gets up to 110 dB instantaneously. What is considered to be instantaneous? Nobody knows. I've been told a range of durations from 50 ms (0.05 seconds) to 1 second. With fairly rugged speakers, this can be handled. How about our ears? OSHA puts a limit of 30 minutes on an SPL of 110 dB, for a quasi-continuous level like the sound machines might make in industry.



With a three-way speaker, the sound going through the tweeter is about 20 dB down with orchestral music. With amplified rock, metal, or electronic music, I'm not so sure.
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post #7055 of 7146 Old 10-17-2019, 10:23 PM
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Hi guys quick question. Just bought my new center and did my calibration. Most settings where the same as my last calibration even the sub. My question is with my old center the calibration setting was -5.5 and the new was calibrated at 0. I’m guessing this normal between different types of centers
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post #7056 of 7146 Old 10-18-2019, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by bigzee3 View Post
Hi guys quick question. Just bought my new center and did my calibration. Most settings where the same as my last calibration even the sub. My question is with my old center the calibration setting was -5.5 and the new was calibrated at 0. I’m guessing this normal between different types of centers
If your new center is about 5-6dB less sensitive than your old center, completely normal. What are the two speakers?
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post #7057 of 7146 Old 10-18-2019, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigzee3 View Post
Hi guys quick question. Just bought my new center and did my calibration. Most settings where the same as my last calibration even the sub. My question is with my old center the calibration setting was -5.5 and the new was calibrated at 0. I&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;m guessing this normal between different types of centers
If your new center is about 5-6dB less sensitive than your old center, completely normal. What are the two speakers?
Thanks A,

The fronts are Kef Q950s and the center is Kef Q650
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post #7058 of 7146 Old 10-18-2019, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by bigzee3 View Post
Thanks A,

The fronts are Kef Q950s and the center is Kef Q650

It turns out that KEF lists your main fronts as being 4 dB higher in sensitivity than your center. Audyssey measured the difference as more like 1.5 dB greater than that, @ 5.5 dB, but the positioning of your floor standing main fronts could account for that. If they are near a wall or corner they would gain SPL. The lowest woofers being closer to the floor, alone, could boost them by about a dB or so. In any case, all is well and normal.
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post #7059 of 7146 Old 10-18-2019, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigzee3 View Post
Thanks A,

The fronts are Kef Q950s and the center is Kef Q650

It turns out that KEF lists your main fronts as being 4 dB higher in sensitivity than your center. Audyssey measured the difference as more like 1.5 dB greater than that, @ 5.5 dB, but the positioning of your floor standing main fronts could account for that. If they are near a wall or corner they would gain SPL. The lowest woofers being closer to the floor, alone, could boost them by about a dB or so. In any case, all is well and normal.
Thanks G
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post #7060 of 7146 Old 10-19-2019, 12:25 PM
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Everyone here that runs audyssey, do you raise subwoofer after calibration or lower it? If raise, of so how much?
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post #7061 of 7146 Old 10-19-2019, 01:31 PM
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Everyone here that runs audyssey, do you raise subwoofer after calibration or lower it? If raise, of so how much?
If I'm using DEQ, I leave the subwoofer trim as is. If I am not using DEQ, I usually raise it by about 5-6dB.
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post #7062 of 7146 Old 10-19-2019, 02:37 PM
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I usually just keep DEQ on all the time and tame it with the “reference level offset” feature. And if I desire a bit more bass, I then engage the “Channel Level Adjust”, in the options menu, also available on the remote, and setting is kept for each individual source, and increase to taste (usually +3db), just the subwoofer channel. For most music sources this works well for me. I Should mention this is for music playback, I don’t fuss much over the movie settings.
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post #7063 of 7146 Old 10-19-2019, 03:28 PM
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As u all of can tell im having a tuff Times setting up My subbs. Im sure i dont whant dyn eq anymore becouse what it does to My center channel. But now im having a Hard time figure out what subwoofer gain/level i like.
Audyssey sets Them to -8.5 and -7.0 and it Kinda nice to the ears, but somethimes i woud Love some more punch, but its Hard to find the balans between to much (Hard for the ears) and the right gain.
How do you guys choose the right gain/level
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post #7064 of 7146 Old 10-19-2019, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by OrdinaryClown View Post
As u all of can tell im having a tuff Times setting up My subbs. Im sure i dont whant dyn eq anymore becouse what it does to My center channel. But now im having a Hard time figure out what subwoofer gain/level i like.
Audyssey sets Them to -8.5 and -7.0 and it Kinda nice to the ears, but somethimes i woud Love some more punch, but its Hard to find the balans between to much (Hard for the ears) and the right gain.
How do you guys choose the right gain/level

It's really just trial-and-error. I think part of the problem is that different sources, and different movies or music, may have very different amounts of bass. So, a lot of people have trouble finding one single bass setting that they like for everything.

Sometimes, I think that the people who can leave all of their settings alone, for all of their listening content, are the lucky ones. I very rarely change my bass levels for music, but I definitely do change them for TV shows and movies. The bass levels can vary quite a bit, especially where an LFE (low-frequency effects) channel is involved. And, my own moods can also influence how much bass I want for a particular program or movie.

If you are having trouble finding exactly the right balance, it's probably because you are fairly sensitive to what some people would consider fairly minor variations in bass volume. If that is the case, you would just need to adjust your bass levels from-time-to-time. It's easier to do that with your AVR remote. Just try not to go above about -5 in subwoofer trim level when you do it.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #7065 of 7146 Old 10-19-2019, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by OrdinaryClown View Post
Everyone here that runs audyssey, do you raise subwoofer after calibration or lower it? If raise, of so how much?
Just summarizing many past posts, I'd estimate that those who use Audyssey and want more bass generally increase the subwoofer trim by 3 dB. But others leave it alone, and there are some who increase it > 3 dB.

Since changing the subwoofer trim is "preference" and not "reference," why not experiment and see what you like?

As others have noted, when you have Dynamic EQ turned on, that feature will increase the volume on the subwoofer at master volume settings below 0 dB--the lower the master volume, the greater the increase in subwoofer volume.
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post #7066 of 7146 Old 10-19-2019, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrdinaryClown View Post
As u all of can tell im having a tuff Times setting up My subbs. Im sure i dont whant dyn eq anymore becouse what it does to My center channel. But now im having a Hard time figure out what subwoofer gain/level i like.
Audyssey sets Them to -8.5 and -7.0 and it Kinda nice to the ears, but somethimes i woud Love some more punch, but its Hard to find the balans between to much (Hard for the ears) and the right gain.
How do you guys choose the right gain/level

I set the sub (adding dB to Audyssey's setting) by ear using a wide range music disk, then listen at that sub level for a week or two using several different music disks, and several movies (Blu-ray). If the deep bass sounds good after this trial period, I leave it there. If not, I turn it up or down slightly.


Most people would be well advised to avoid setting the AVR sub trim any higher than -5, and turning up the gain control on the sub itself, if necessary. In his guide, GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES, Mike Thomas gives comprehensive instructions on how to manipulate elements of the initial Audyssey set up to get Audyssey to set the trim in the AVR to - 11.5 as the perfect "reference' balance, after which you can turn up the AVR trim to as high as -5, getting up to 6.5 dB net boost for your "preference" setting without overloading the line driver in your AVR. If your need more boost, turn up the gain on the sub itself.


"Punch," IMO, often occurs above the usual subwoofer crossover of 80 Hz. Since you are not using DEQ, you might want to turn up the bass tone control, which becomes available if DEQ is off. It affects the left and right front only, so it won't stress your center. It has no effect on the sub.


During your trial set-ups, listen carefully for distortion. You really shouldn't hear any in music, and hardly any, if any, in movie effects, unless the filmmakers deliberately put some on the effects track (I haven't run into a movie like that, but you never can tell what they'll do). Music shouldn't be hard on your ears, and neither should movies, except for outlandish ones like Pacific Rim.


If you are getting distortion or ear fatigue, is it possible your subs aren't heavy duty enough? What make and model are they?


I'm reluctant to admit that I'm using about 9 dB boost in my sub channel. Don't try this at home. I don't use DEQ. My front left & right channels (set for "small") are bass boosted as well, getting up to about +8 dB at 150 Hz, and to +9 dB at 100 Hz, then the crossover to the sub is at 80 Hz, so REW measures pretty much +9 dB from 100 Hz on down.
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post #7067 of 7146 Old 10-20-2019, 12:30 AM
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Hi, yes i read this from Mike, and he has done an amazing job writing all this down. But its a very Long thread 😅
If i have as i said above -8.5 and -7.5 i test Tone in My marantz if i just go into audio and go to "adjust subwoofer level" translated from Swedish. It the trim u are talking about. If i just put that setting to ON , how many db rais is that?

My subbs are dual ZTX 1x12 cinema.
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post #7068 of 7146 Old 10-20-2019, 02:36 AM
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They hardest thing is to find some middleground as Mike says, audyssey calibration sounds great when i watch blurays, but to Little bass when i watch movies on Netflix/iTunes on Apple tv
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post #7069 of 7146 Old 10-20-2019, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mactavish View Post
I usually just keep DEQ on all the time and tame it with the “reference level offset” feature. And if I desire a bit more bass, I then engage the “Channel Level Adjust”, in the options menu, also available on the remote, and setting is kept for each individual source, and increase to taste (usually +3db), just the subwoofer channel. For most music sources this works well for me. I Should mention this is for music playback, I don’t fuss much over the movie settings.

I got around to some music listening just the other day when I had DEQ on and immediately turned it off. It just didn’t sound good at all. However I like this method of yours to tame the bass a bit. I’ll have to give it a go. I certainly prefer movies with it on and since the bulk of my music and movie watching is on the same source I can’t set it per source.


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post #7070 of 7146 Old 10-21-2019, 06:11 AM
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So here's a new query...I have a faux leather couch eight feet from the TV as my main listening spot (no other furniture in the sectioned off spot of my basement). Normally run w/o the back covered as I recall seeing Chris K. mention the reflection issue may be overblown. This sets my subs at -8dB. Sounds good, like DEQ, etc.

However, on a whim and reading the guide here, I put a fleece blanket over the back, and subs measured -2dB. All other speakers, crossovers, etc. remained the same, or within tenths of the other run. Noticeably louder bass, which was amplified by DEQ (but not to an obnoxious level, just easier to hear). I did not take it with RLO, which I usually keep at 5 and listen around -20.

What is happening here, and which curve should I follow? Is this simply a preference issue?

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post #7071 of 7146 Old 10-21-2019, 06:48 AM
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Combination of Audyssey MultEQ XT32 and Manual with SPL Meter. Is that even possible?

Main question: Is it possible and/or advised to use manual settings along with Audyssey?


I have been using Denon receivers for years and back in the day, before auto calibration with mics, I purchased and used an SPL meter to calibrate my speakers (of course I learned about doing that here!)

I made the move to Atmos while redoing my Home Theater/ Shared Media Space in my basement, I purchased a Denon AVR-X3600H and have a 5.1.4 setup with ceiling speakers. I ran the calibration setup and I was not impressed with my Atmos sound, so last night I broke out my SPL meter and manually adjusted the sound levels to the MLP and WOW, what a difference that made, now I can clearly hear (equally) sound from all my speakers.

The Audyssey calibration did set distances and although I did not check for accuracy, I could clearly see that it recognized what speakers were farther way from the MLP than others. I know Audysseys main benefit is to adjust frequencies based on room characteristics but it did a poor job at at setting the listening levels per speaker. It set my speakers to large (which they are) but I was always under the impression that setting them to small was better so the LFE was always handled by the subwoofer so I changed them to small? It set the crossovers to 60 Hz L/R/C and 40 Hz/ Surrounds. I changed the bass from 120 Hz to 80Hz.

I know Denon released a $20app that allows for some more in depth customization but that will require me to do some further research/learning. One of the advantages of the AVR-X3600H is the addition of the upgraded Audyssey MultEQ X32, I would hate to not be taking advatage of that.

Does anybody use a combination of Audyssey and manual setup? Is that even possible?
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post #7072 of 7146 Old 10-21-2019, 07:27 AM
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The distance/crossover/size settings isnt actually a part of Audyssey even if it seems like it with the auto setup.
Its very common to tweak levels and crossover frequencies afterwards for accuracy or preference. The auto setup is better at distances. Remember especially sub distance will be reported as longer than actual because of internal DSP in most modern subs.

Its also very easy to not get good measurements, there are some guides here on the forum and its worth taking the time to read up on it and do the measurements as recommended in those if you use Audyssey room correction.
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post #7073 of 7146 Old 10-21-2019, 07:32 AM
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I have found that I need to break out my SPL meter and get all the speakers at the same level from the MLP as well after running Audyssey, as the Audyssey results are not really good/accurate as far as I can tell (I have a Denon x4400h with Audyssey XT32). In addition, I bump up my Atmos speakers another 3.5db to get a more robust experience since Atmos soundtracks are known for being a little on the weak side more often than not.
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post #7074 of 7146 Old 10-21-2019, 07:34 AM
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Using an SPL meter is a great idea to confirm equal output from each channel to your MLP and often used so all good there imo. If i wasn't so happy with my results i would go buy one as well and likely still will at some point as well as a good mic for REW to measure my rooms frequency's. Audyssey almost always sets speakers to "large" unless you have something like Bose 2" cubes for mains lol so most of the time you will have to manually change to small. This will send more of the bass load to the sub.

Also adjusting X-overs is a must when trying to get the perfect front soundstage and sub(s) to perform as one so unless you are using large towers for mains, starting with 80Hz and speakers set to small will provide more of the grunt work go to your subs, while taking the load off your AVR (if not also using external amps).

I dont know what audyssey set your speaker X-overs to, but it is important to "not" lower the X-over setting from audyssey as filters have been set and there will be no EQ below what audyssey set. Now changing X-overs higher is OK because audyssey has set those filters.

Without knowing you speakers specs 60Hz may be on the low side (but maybe not) also changing your LFE from 120 to 80Hz may or may not be a good move for the same reasons. Mthomas47 has a sticky that explains cascading X-overs where a lower LFE and sub X-over can be beneficial.

40Hz on your Atmos speakers seems way to low and i would bump them to 80Hz (or higher "if" audyssey set them higher). Also adjusting your avr sub trim/and sub gains are often needed to achieve the right amount of bass for your taste but that is a different conversation.

So to answer your posts question,,,,, ABSOLUTELY imo making manual adjustments post audyssey is a must.

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post #7075 of 7146 Old 10-21-2019, 09:49 AM
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Thanks for the responses!

I learned that Audyssey MultEQ is separate from the “Auto Calibration” which is great, that means that I can tweak the sound levels and distances but still take advantage of the EQ settings configured for my room.

I broke out the sound meter late last night so I only listened to a quick trailer to test the settings and I could instantly tell the huge difference, the sound levels were way off. I’m excited to check it out after work today.

I could see me tweaking the bass and Atmos settings a little higher to suite my personal taste.

I also learned that when Audyssey sets the crossover filters, I can go higher but going lower may not work due to the filters settings.

I’m really going to enjoy the addition of Atmos (along with my new Epson 6050!)
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post #7076 of 7146 Old 10-21-2019, 12:39 PM
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drober30,

I would take a good look at my Audyssey calibration method if I were you. Speaker trim levels being "way off" is not a normal result after running Audyssey. This begs the question; how far off were they?

Also, using the AVR's internal test tones to set speaker levels is not the proper way to do it if you are using Audyssey as those test tones are played without the EQ filters that Audyssey has set. Depending on how many and how aggressive these filters are, the difference could be quite minuscule or very drastic.
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post #7077 of 7146 Old 10-21-2019, 12:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
"Punch," IMO, often occurs above the usual subwoofer crossover of 80 Hz.

Gary, punch is coming from 45-80 Hz.

Look @2:40:



The chart below shows the frequency response of "Hive"-club in London, a system with a decent punch.
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post #7078 of 7146 Old 10-21-2019, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinfax1 View Post
Gary, punch is coming from 45-80 Hz.

Look @2:40:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9lG...youtu.be&t=162


The chart below shows the frequency response of "Hive"-club in London, a system with a decent punch.

Thanks for sending the video.


I agree that there is punch between 45 and 80 Hz, but I also think I hear punch just above 100 Hz. There is a little peak in the curve of the "Hive" club just in that area. Could that be part of its "decent punch?" To my ears that's about where the leading edge sometimes is.
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post #7079 of 7146 Old 10-23-2019, 11:46 AM
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I have a weird one guy's.

My friends has an avr-x2200w and after calibration audyssey set his front LCR to large. Afterwards we switch the LCR to small and doing this disabled audyssey(greyed out). If we go to Setup->Audio -> audyssey is greyed out. Switching the front LCR back to large re-enables audyssey.


any ideas why/how to fix this?



my 1400h/4500h don't behave this way at all.

Speakers: KEF Q100, Q300, Q750, Q650C / Fluance Signature Series, SX6, XL5F/ Mirage M-190 / DCM TP160S-CH Subwoofers: Outlaw Ultra X12 (x2) / BIC H100-II
Receiver: Denon AVR-X4500H, AVR-X1400H Integrated Amplifier: Yamaha A-S501/ Fosi Audio TPA3116 mini amp Extras: MiniDSP Umik-1 Amplifier: Emotiva BasX-A300
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post #7080 of 7146 Old 10-23-2019, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macgallant View Post
I have a weird one guy's.

My friends has an avr-x2200w and after calibration audyssey set his front LCR to large. Afterwards we switch the LCR to small and doing this disabled audyssey(greyed out). If we go to Setup->Audio -> audyssey is greyed out. Switching the front LCR back to large re-enables audyssey.


any ideas why/how to fix this?



my 1400h/4500h don't behave this way at all.

Try to unplug the Denon for 10 minutes. If that doesn't work, next step is a microprocessor reset. Look up procedures in the Manual.
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