"Official" Audyssey thread Part II - Page 24 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #691 of 7169 Old 07-02-2016, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
Okay, so... Audyssey made a quite a boost in midrange regions of my three front speakers...mostly center channel which by the looks of EQ Graph has a 10 dB boost somewhere in a wide 300 Hz area. Coincidentally, my midrange driver started buzzing in center and is waiting for replacement (no visual damage though). I don't know if main cause of damage was that boost, but I am wondering what can I do about it? I know I can bypass audyssey on left and right speaker...but if I turn it off completely then I will have no bass management.
Any workarounds I don't know off other then switching to something more flexible like Dirac?
You can still have bass management without Audyssey, but I wouldn't go that way. Audyssey can help a little to a lot (in my case, a lot).

I think the maximum boost of Audyssey (over true 0) is 9 dB. I, too, doubt if that damaged your center, although some centers are delicate, compared to LF and RF. Are you running your center as "small?" Running all speakers as "small" may provide a bit of extra protection by sending bass to the sub. I realize that you suspect that Audyssey may have turned your midrange up too high, but speaker damage is most often done by high SPL at the bass end, or in some cases in the treble end where tweeters may get the treble byproducts of amplifier clipping, which most people think can kill tweeters.

What is the power rating in watts per channel of your receiver or amp?

Are you setting your Main Volume control by ear? How loud are you running it (in dB below 0)? Most home theater components can be run at a high SPL without damage, but some of those sold in big box stores or department stores cannot.

Please give us the information asked for by Mike, above, as well as your room size in cubic feet and the power handling capacity of the speakers, particularly the center (even though power handling capacity is not often informative!), and their rated sensitivity (or efficiency).

See the "Audyssey FAQ" link at the bottom of Mike's posts.
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post #692 of 7169 Old 07-03-2016, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I don't recall if you have posted pictures of your system and a description of your speakers, but I don't know that I would try to read too much into the crude graphs. As has been stated many times on the thread, it is hard to draw meaningful conclusions from graphs that attempt to depict at such a broad level the corrections that Audyssey is trying to make. The actual corrections occur at thousands of locations across the frequency spectrum.

If your CC is buzzing, it is probably damaged alright, but I don't know that I would conclude that Audyssey caused the damage. If the CC were damaged, that might explain why Audyssey was trying to boost it. It would be very rare for Audyssey to damage a speaker by boosting it. It is simply trying to get all of the speakers to play at the same volume at the MLP, and trying to get the full frequency band within about +/- 3db. An already damaged driver might not be able to play at the MV you are using, and the buzzing might then become more audible. But the cause would likely be the defective driver to start with. The boost just makes the defect more noticeable.

I don't know of any way to protect a defective CC from playing with Audyssey, other than by removing it from the system, either physically, or virtually in the Speaker Configuration Menu, and running a phantom center. To be thorough with the options, I guess you could also just turn down the trim level on the CC to make it inaudible, with the same effect of creating a phantom center. I would do one of those things, in any case, until I could replace or repair the CC, regardless of the EQ system.

If you will post pictures, descriptions of your speakers, crossovers and trim levels, distance to MLP, and MV levels, you may be able to get some helpful trouble-shooting advice. I'm sorry to hear about your damaged CC.

Regards,
Mike
It would be about time I put my setup info in signature
I cannot take photos at the moment, maybe in a few days, but I don't think its necessary.
Revel Ultima Salon 2
Revel C208
Revel M106
Denon X5200
Yamaha P5000S (for driving Salons only)

Fronts and CC are roughly 2.7 m from MLP, it is not symmetrical placement in regards to room, but I have first reflection treatments for fronts and CC. Trim for CC is -2, for fronts -1.5, all crossovers are at 80. My usual listening levels (for movies) are between -12 and -5.
"Idea" that audyssey 9 dB boost in that frequency area could be damaging came to me because there is obviously pretty tasking power requirement for amp when listening near reference levels and I have no actual clue how much headroom speaker and amp have to handle that.

I am getting a replacement part soon as it is still under a warranty.

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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
You can still have bass management without Audyssey, but I wouldn't go that way. Audyssey can help a little to a lot (in my case, a lot).

I think the maximum boost of Audyssey (over true 0) is 9 dB. I, too, doubt if that damaged your center, although some centers are delicate, compared to LF and RF. Are you running your center as "small?" Running all speakers as "small" may provide a bit of extra protection by sending bass to the sub. I realize that you suspect that Audyssey may have turned your midrange up too high, but speaker damage is most often done by high SPL at the bass end, or in some cases in the treble end where tweeters may get the treble byproducts of amplifier clipping, which most people think can kill tweeters.

What is the power rating in watts per channel of your receiver or amp?

Are you setting your Main Volume control by ear? How loud are you running it (in dB below 0)? Most home theater components can be run at a high SPL without damage, but some of those sold in big box stores or department stores cannot.

Please give us the information asked for by Mike, above, as well as your room size in cubic feet and the power handling capacity of the speakers, particularly the center (even though power handling capacity is not often informative!), and their rated sensitivity (or efficiency).

See the "Audyssey FAQ" link at the bottom of Mike's posts.
Hi,
I answered most of your questions above.
I have experience with Audyssey so everything is set up correctly (speakers to small, etc etc)
Power output is rated somewhere around 150WPC in 8 Ohms for 2 channels iirc. (i run only cc and 2 surrounds on Denons amps, fronts are hooked to preouts)
Power handling for cc is 50-350W, 8 Ohms, 89dB sensitivity.
Yes, I usually set volume by ear, -12 to -5 or so...comfortably loud
Room is about 4000 cubic feet, but HT area utilizes about 1/4 of it (roughly 7 x 5.5 x 2.5 meters). Will post picture as soon as I am able to if necessary.
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post #693 of 7169 Old 07-03-2016, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
It would be about time I put my setup info in signature
I cannot take photos at the moment, maybe in a few days, but I don't think its necessary.
Revel Ultima Salon 2
Revel C208
Revel M106
Denon X5200
Yamaha P5000S (for driving Salons only)

Fronts and CC are roughly 2.7 m from MLP, it is not symmetrical placement in regards to room, but I have first reflection treatments for fronts and CC. Trim for CC is -2, for fronts -1.5, all crossovers are at 80. My usual listening levels (for movies) are between -12 and -5.
"Idea" that audyssey 9 dB boost in that frequency area could be damaging came to me because there is obviously pretty tasking power requirement for amp when listening near reference levels and I have no actual clue how much headroom speaker and amp have to handle that.

I am getting a replacement part soon as it is still under a warranty.



Hi,
I answered most of your questions above.
I have experience with Audyssey so everything is set up correctly (speakers to small, etc etc)
Power output is rated somewhere around 150WPC in 8 Ohms for 2 channels iirc. (i run only cc and 2 surrounds on Denons amps, fronts are hooked to preouts)
Power handling for cc is 50-350W, 8 Ohms, 89dB sensitivity.
Yes, I usually set volume by ear, -12 to -5 or so...comfortably loud
Room is about 4000 cubic feet, but HT area utilizes about 1/4 of it (roughly 7 x 5.5 x 2.5 meters). Will post picture as soon as I am able to if necessary.
Thanks for the information. I agree that the photos aren't necessary. Those are good speakers. To me, the most salient pieces of information are: the CC speaker sensitivity, which is 89db 1watt/1m; the listening distance, which is less than 3m; the trim level, which is -2; the crossover, which is 80Hz; and the MV, which is below Reference, at -12 to -5.

All of those factors suggest that your speakers are operating well within normal limits. A trim setting of -2 means that you have ample headroom for the listening distance of less than 3m, and you have the crossover set about a half octave higher than the F3 point of the speaker. In-room, it's possible that your AVR would even set that speaker at 40Hz, although 60Hz is more likely.

So, there is nothing there to indicate to me that your CC should be over-driven by anything that you are doing with the MV, or that Audyssey might be doing with a boost at around 300Hz. As Gary noted, typically if a speaker is over-driven, it occurs in the lower bass range, below about 80Hz, or in the upper frequency range above 8000Hz or so. Since your CC has an internal crossover of 375Hz, any boost in that area should be distributed mainly to your 8" woofers. It is possible, I suppose that the 4" mid-range could be getting a little bit of boost at the low-end of its capabilities, but if Revel is properly implementing the internal crossover, which I'm sure they are, the 4" mid-range should be fine unless it had a problem to start with. And again, you can't take those graphs as literal representations of what Audyssey is actually doing, anyway.

I have been very careful not to say that it's impossible for Audyssey to damage a speaker, as who really knows, but if the speakers are fairly new I would strongly suspect an inherent defect, that has only now become noticeable. Audyssey does not have a history of damaging speakers (if there were such a history, this long thread would be filled with such reports). So, I am hoping that the replacement part will solve your problem. But for the benefit of others with Audyssey, I would appreciate it if you would keep us informed about what happens once your speaker is repaired.
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Last edited by mthomas47; 07-03-2016 at 10:10 AM.
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post #694 of 7169 Old 07-03-2016, 04:17 PM
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Thanks for the information. I agree that the photos aren't necessary. Those are good speakers. To me, the most salient pieces of information are: the CC speaker sensitivity, which is 89db 1watt/1m; the listening distance, which is less than 3m; the trim level, which is -2; the crossover, which is 80Hz; and the MV, which is below Reference, at -12 to -5.

All of those factors suggest that your speakers are operating well within normal limits. A trim setting of -2 means that you have ample headroom for the listening distance of less than 3m, and you have the crossover set about a half octave higher than the F3 point of the speaker. In-room, it's possible that your AVR would even set that speaker at 40Hz, although 60Hz is more likely.

So, there is nothing there to indicate to me that your CC should be over-driven by anything that you are doing with the MV, or that Audyssey might be doing with a boost at around 300Hz. As Gary noted, typically if a speaker is over-driven, it occurs in the lower bass range, below about 80Hz, or in the upper frequency range above 8000Hz or so. Since your CC has an internal crossover of 375Hz, any boost in that area should be distributed mainly to your 8" woofers. It is possible, I suppose that the 4" mid-range could be getting a little bit of boost at the low-end of its capabilities, but if Revel is properly implementing the internal crossover, which I'm sure they are, the 4" mid-range should be fine unless it had a problem to start with. And again, you can't take those graphs as literal representations of what Audyssey is actually doing, anyway.

I have been very careful not to say that it's impossible for Audyssey to damage a speaker, as who really knows, but if the speakers are fairly new I would strongly suspect an inherent defect, that has only now become noticeable. Audyssey does not have a history of damaging speakers (if there were such a history, this long thread would be filled with such reports). So, I am hoping that the replacement part will solve your problem. But for the benefit of others with Audyssey, I would appreciate it if you would keep us informed about what happens once your speaker is repaired.
Thank you for reply.
Of course, I wouldn't claim that Audyssey was the biggest factor in speaker damage, but rather just another piece in combination of unfortunate circumstances. Though it seems it is just a defective part since speaker really didn't have that much work hours in it to begin with and as you said, I didn't really push it insanely hard.
Audyssey did behave rather "insane" since i placed that speaker at new position (couple of feet away from old one, also different direction). Usually it would set crossover really low (40 Hz) or so, but in this new position it usually puts it really high...120, 100, but I always check with REW whats going on and usually end up at 80 because it looks and sounds best there.

I surely will let you know how are things going once speaker is fixed.
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post #695 of 7169 Old 07-03-2016, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
Power output is rated somewhere around 150WPC in 8 Ohms for 2 channels iirc. (i run only cc and 2 surrounds on Denons amps, fronts are hooked to preouts)
Power handling for cc is 50-350W, 8 Ohms, 89dB sensitivity.
Yes, I usually set volume by ear, -12 to -5 or so...comfortably loud
Room is about 4000 cubic feet, but HT area utilizes about 1/4 of it (roughly 7 x 5.5 x 2.5 meters). Will post picture as soon as I am able to if necessary.
If the highest (peak) SPL through your center is 100 dB (5 dB below Reference full scale for main speakers) at your MLP, I doubt that your playback level damaged your speaker. You may want to ask Revel for their opinion, though. I would think that the power it would take to produce 100 dB at your MLP with a speaker of 89 dB sensitivity would be less than 100 watts, and that would be only for peaks. Your room is a bit bigger than some, but you and your mic positions are close.

If you don't go by the percussion, the loudest frequency range put out by an orchestra is centered somewhere around 150 Hz to 800 Hz, so if you are setting by ear, you may be setting the SPL based on that band, which is where your possible 9 dB boost occurs -- so you probably aren't pushing the low bass or the treble very much.

Since you are set up for REW, you could run sweeps with and without Audyssey, and see if there really is a 9 dB difference centered around 300 Hz. I'd expect an electronic boost of 9 dB to read a little less acoustically because of the compression imposed by most speakers.
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post #696 of 7169 Old 07-05-2016, 04:25 PM
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Thank you for reply.
Of course, I wouldn't claim that Audyssey was the biggest factor in speaker damage, but rather just another piece in combination of unfortunate circumstances. Though it seems it is just a defective part since speaker really didn't have that much work hours in it to begin with and as you said, I didn't really push it insanely hard.
Audyssey did behave rather "insane" since i placed that speaker at new position (couple of feet away from old one, also different direction). Usually it would set crossover really low (40 Hz) or so, but in this new position it usually puts it really high...120, 100, but I always check with REW whats going on and usually end up at 80 because it looks and sounds best there.

I surely will let you know how are things going once speaker is fixed.
You're getting a lot of great advice from Mike & Gary, I just wanted to point out that you should never lower a crossover set by Audyssey.

Audyssey only EQ's the speaker down to the detected -3dB point. So, if you lower the crossover manually, the frequencies between the Audyssey set crossover and your manually set crossover will not be EQ'ed.

Did you move the CC from under the display to over, or....?
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post #697 of 7169 Old 07-05-2016, 05:26 PM
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You're getting a lot of great advice from Mike & Gary, I just wanted to point out that you should never lower a crossover set by Audyssey.

Audyssey only EQ's the speaker down to the detected -3dB point. So, if you lower the crossover manually, the frequencies between the Audyssey set crossover and your manually set crossover will not be EQ'ed.

Did you move the CC from under the display to over, or....?
I hope someone can confirm what you just said because that sounds like a really poorly developed mechanism. I was assuming that Audyssey measures each speaker and sub, EQ's full range for each speaker and sub, then chooses -3db point and applies crossovers. That way, if anyone decides to lower crossover point or set speaker to LARGE, EQ for that specific speaker can be properly utilized.

To answer your other question, my speakers were previously positioned differently, facing different direction in the room with MLP really close to back wall (aiming down the shorter dimension of a room) and now I have repositioned them so they aim downwards longer dimension so i have about 12 feet between back wall and MLP.
Bass/mid-bass wise it seems to be worse position for center then previous one, but at least I don't have to listen to painful back wall reflections any more.
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post #698 of 7169 Old 07-05-2016, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
I hope someone can confirm what you just said because that sounds like a really poorly developed mechanism. I was assuming that Audyssey measures each speaker and sub, EQ's full range for each speaker and sub, then chooses -3db point and applies crossovers. That way, if anyone decides to lower crossover point or set speaker to LARGE, EQ for that specific speaker can be properly utilized.
...
I think it is confirmed somewhere in the Audyssey FAQ that is in both Mike's and Alan's signatures, if it is not, it may be in the Audyssey 101 that is in Alan's.

Here's the way I see it:
  • If Audyssey EQd the full range (20 to 20KHz) of a speaker that has its -3dB point at 90 Hz (some do, in some rooms), it might end up boosting a full 9 dB at, say, 25 Hz (or 30, or 80, etc.), causing distortion and possible damage, if someone sets the crossover much lower than the measured f3 of 90. It's conceivable that the net or relative boost might be even more, if most other ranges were cut to allow more relative boost at 25 Hz).
  • If Audyssey does not EQ the whole range, but stops at the -3 dB point (which we think is the case), the speaker would get whatever it would normally get below f3, as if Audyssey was not being used, therefore the speaker wouldn't be being over strained below the f3 (unless it would be in an ordinary, non-Audyssey system).


Audyssey measures my front speakers as being at -3 dB at 40 Hz, in my room. In reality, they have fairly good response to about 32 Hz, and respond cleanly, but softly, to 24 Hz. For a few movies in my collection (all from the1950s and 60s) I do use "Large" and "LFE + Main," because those few films just sound better that way, but I do maintain the same crossover (80 Hz, in my case). I have experimented with lowering it to the f3 of 40 Hz, without a problem. I'm glad that Audyssey doesn't try to boost my main fronts below f3 -- I wouldn't want Audyssey to be pumping in a 9 dB boost (or more, relatively speaking) at 20 Hz, when I use "Large." I'd wager I'd hear distortion, and might cause harm.
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post #699 of 7169 Old 07-06-2016, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
I think it is confirmed somewhere in the Audyssey FAQ that is in both Mike's and Alan's signatures, if it is not, it may be in the Audyssey 101 that is in Alan's.

Here's the way I see it:
  • If Audyssey EQd the full range (20 to 20KHz) of a speaker that has its -3dB point at 90 Hz (some do, in some rooms), it might end up boosting a full 9 dB at, say, 25 Hz (or 30, or 80, etc.), causing distortion and possible damage, if someone sets the crossover much lower than the measured f3 of 90. It's conceivable that the net or relative boost might be even more, if most other ranges were cut to allow more relative boost at 25 Hz).
  • If Audyssey does not EQ the whole range, but stops at the -3 dB point (which we think is the case), the speaker would get whatever it would normally get below f3, as if Audyssey was not being used, therefore the speaker wouldn't be being over strained below the f3 (unless it would be in an ordinary, non-Audyssey system).


Audyssey measures my front speakers as being at -3 dB at 40 Hz, in my room. In reality, they have fairly good response to about 32 Hz, and respond cleanly, but softly, to 24 Hz. For a few movies in my collection (all from the1950s and 60s) I do use "Large" and "LFE + Main," because those few films just sound better that way, but I do maintain the same crossover (80 Hz, in my case). I have experimented with lowering it to the f3 of 40 Hz, without a problem. I'm glad that Audyssey doesn't try to boost my main fronts below f3 -- I wouldn't want Audyssey to be pumping in a 9 dB boost (or more, relatively speaking) at 20 Hz, when I use "Large." I'd wager I'd hear distortion, and might cause harm.
Yeah, you have the point. I didn't think it through.
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post #700 of 7169 Old 07-06-2016, 09:33 AM
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I hope someone can confirm what you just said because that sounds like a really poorly developed mechanism. I was assuming that Audyssey measures each speaker and sub, EQ's full range for each speaker and sub, then chooses -3db point and applies crossovers. That way, if anyone decides to lower crossover point or set speaker to LARGE, EQ for that specific speaker can be properly utilized.

To answer your other question, my speakers were previously positioned differently, facing different direction in the room with MLP really close to back wall (aiming down the shorter dimension of a room) and now I have repositioned them so they aim downwards longer dimension so i have about 12 feet between back wall and MLP.
Bass/mid-bass wise it seems to be worse position for center then previous one, but at least I don't have to listen to painful back wall reflections any more.
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I think it is confirmed somewhere in the Audyssey FAQ that is in both Mike's and Alan's signatures, if it is not, it may be in the Audyssey 101 that is in Alan's.
It is indeed confirmed in the Audyssey FAQ:

Is it OK to change the Crossovers from Audyssey's recommendation?

"If you decide to change any of the Crossovers determined by Audyssey, note that it is always OK to RAISE the Crossovers from those suggested but never to LOWER them. This is because Audyssey corrects down to the -3dB point of the speaker's frequencies response, so if you lower the Crossover from Audyssey's suggested setting you will create an uncorrected 'hole' in the frequency response. It's fine to raise them and doing so does not harm the Audyssey calibration in any way at all."
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post #701 of 7169 Old 07-06-2016, 11:31 AM
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Just to close the loop on all of this, Audyssey measures the frequency response and reports the F3 point for each speaker to the AVR. The AVR then sets a crossover based on it's own internal algorithm, which may vary just slightly from manufacturer to manufacturer. In my opinion, there are two important aspects to how crossovers are set. First, although one speaker may measure lower in-room than the other (due to room effects), the crossover is set for the pair, and is based on the higher detected crossover not the lower one. As Gary explained so well, that is to protect the speakers from being boosted below their F3 points.

Second, no one has ever been exactly sure how different companies implement crossovers. For instance, if the detected F3 point on the CC is about 45Hz or 50Hz, the AVR will surely round up to 60Hz for the crossover. But what is the point at which a crossover is rounded up, or down. If the F3 point were 41Hz or 42Hz, would a given AVR still round-up to a 60Hz crossover, or down to 40Hz?

In recent years, Chris K. has reversed his long-standing recommendation to always use 80Hz or higher crossovers, if the owner has XT-32. That is due to the increased number of filters in the satellite channels, which can EQ bass as effectively as it can for the subs. But even with his advice that it is okay to leave crossovers wherever Audyssey sets them with XT-32, I think a better standard is the 1/2 to 1 octave rule that recommends setting crossovers at least 1/2 octave above the F3 point, to protect the speakers from distorting at higher volumes. That is not so much an Audyssey issue as a basic way to protect any speakers from distorting by trying to play low frequencies at high volumes.

Regards,
Mike
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post #702 of 7169 Old 07-09-2016, 05:20 AM
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Hoping you guys could answer this question. I'm looking for a receiver that can store different presets for Audyssey configurations. I use my PC as my entertainment system, so when I'm at my desk I would like my Audyssey setup different from when I'm watching a movie, for which I sit back a meter and more to the left of my speakers. So basically I would like to have 2 different presets: one for when I'm doing work or listening to music, and one for when I'm watching movies. Are there any receivers that offer such functionality?
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post #703 of 7169 Old 07-09-2016, 10:01 AM
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Hoping you guys could answer this question. I'm looking for a receiver that can store different presets for Audyssey configurations. I use my PC as my entertainment system, so when I'm at my desk I would like my Audyssey setup different from when I'm watching a movie, for which I sit back a meter and more to the left of my speakers. So basically I would like to have 2 different presets: one for when I'm doing work or listening to music, and one for when I'm watching movies. Are there any receivers that offer such functionality?
Short answer, NO.
Denon & Marantz both have network save/load functions, so that you can create two totally independent Audyssey Calibrations and store them on your PC. Then load the appropriate one. Saving is really slow at approx. 10 minutes, but loading is a bit quicker at approx. 6 minutes. The configurations are in fact a complete snapshot of the whole AVR configuration, not just the Audyssey data.
Regards, Mike.
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post #704 of 7169 Old 07-10-2016, 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Vandaahl View Post
Hoping you guys could answer this question. I'm looking for a receiver that can store different presets for Audyssey configurations. I use my PC as my entertainment system, so when I'm at my desk I would like my Audyssey setup different from when I'm watching a movie, for which I sit back a meter and more to the left of my speakers. So basically I would like to have 2 different presets: one for when I'm doing work or listening to music, and one for when I'm watching movies. Are there any receivers that offer such functionality?
When you watch a movie from one meter back and slightly to the left, are you watching it on your PC, or are you using some other screen? Are you using your PC speakers, or another set of dedicated speakers? If you are watching it on your PC, why are you one meter back and to the side -- to sit in a more comfortable chair? If you are using a bigger screen of some kind, that is centered between your LF and RF speakers, you may want to just move your desk. In our combination Home Theater, Music Room & Library, we have a couch with a desk directly behind it, almost touching, both centered, so movie watching and serious music listening is done from the centered couch, and work is done at the laptop on the desk, both centered in regard to the main speakers. Audyssey is optimized for the couch, but music still sounds good a little more than a meter back when sitting in the desk chair. This arrangement is basically copied from one in the old High Fidelity magazine.
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post #705 of 7169 Old 07-10-2016, 04:24 AM
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
When you watch a movie from one meter back and slightly to the left, are you watching it on your PC, or are you using some other screen? Are you using your PC speakers, or another set of dedicated speakers? If you are watching it on your PC, why are you one meter back and to the side -- to sit in a more comfortable chair? If you are using a bigger screen of some kind, that is centered between your LF and RF speakers, you may want to just move your desk. In our combination Home Theater, Music Room & Library, we have a couch with a desk directly behind it, almost touching, both centered, so movie watching and serious music listening is done from the centered couch, and work is done at the laptop on the desk, both centered in regard to the main speakers. Audyssey is optimized for the couch, but music still sounds good a little more than a meter back when sitting in the desk chair. This arrangement is basically copied from one in the old High Fidelity magazine.
This is a bedroom arrangement with a desk and monitor. The right speaker is on the desk next to the monitor, and the left speaker is next to a wall further to the left. I use these same speakers and monitor for desk use and movie watching, and when I watch a movie I move my monitor to the left of the desk so it's centered between the front speakers. So when I'm sitting at the desk the right speaker is very close to me and the left speaker is further away. So I really need the left speaker to be louder when I'm sitting at the desk, and when I'm watching a movie the balance should be more to the center so they're equally loud.

I really wish I could setup different profiles on a receiver, but it looks like I'll have to do this using some software on my PC (which hopefully exists).
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This is a bedroom arrangement with a desk and monitor. The right speaker is on the desk next to the monitor, and the left speaker is next to a wall further to the left. I use these same speakers and monitor for desk use and movie watching, and when I watch a movie I move my monitor to the left of the desk so it's centered between the front speakers. So when I'm sitting at the desk the right speaker is very close to me and the left speaker is further away. So I really need the left speaker to be louder when I'm sitting at the desk, and when I'm watching a movie the balance should be more to the center so they're equally loud.

I really wish I could setup different profiles on a receiver, but it looks like I'll have to do this using some software on my PC (which hopefully exists).
Why not simply adjust L/R speaker levels appropriately between the different positions?
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post #707 of 7169 Old 07-10-2016, 02:18 PM
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Why not simply adjust L/R speaker levels appropriately between the different positions?

I think that's a good suggestion. I actually do something similar to that when I change positions in my room, as I am a little anal about preserving imaging. As long as you remember your trim levels for the two different positions, it's a piece of cake--much quicker and easier than two separate calibrations would be. And Audyssey should already have EQed your listening area, including the two different positions, so all you really need to worry about is balancing the speaker levels.
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post #708 of 7169 Old 07-10-2016, 04:56 PM
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I think the solution in the above two posts should work well enough. Your speakers are in the same place, the repositioning of your head and the monitor's reflection may make some difference, but I wouldn't expect it to be much (unless your head is in a null in one of the two positions.). Try switching back and forth between Audyssey on and Audyssey off from each position (with the individual speaker volume trims adjusted for the position being tested). If Audyssey always sounds better, you will be better off than without Audyssey!

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I appreciate the suggestions. Does changing the speaker balance not mean I have to enter the receiver UI though and work my way through menu's? Do any receivers have balance buttons on the remote any more?
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post #710 of 7169 Old 07-11-2016, 12:17 PM
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Popping in here a bit late ... is the head movement along the front/back centerline? If so, tweaking trims will do it. If the head movement is left/right then there is precedence (arrival times) that will complicate merely trim adjustments.

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Popping in here a bit late ... is the head movement along the front/back centerline? If so, tweaking trims will do it. If the head movement is left/right then there is precedence (arrival times) that will complicate merely trim adjustments.

Jeff
I move both to the left and to the back (a little over 1 meter / 3.2 feet). I won't need to adjust the balance for the rear speakers however, since I only use those for watching movies i.e. when I move to my alternate position.
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I appreciate the suggestions. Does changing the speaker balance not mean I have to enter the receiver UI though and work my way through menu's? Do any receivers have balance buttons on the remote any more?
Probably, balance control is pretty much non existent on avrs that I know of, might even have to tolerate some test tones for adjusting speaker levels. Maybe even need to play with distance/delay setting as mentioned but you'd already be in the same area at least. Personally I'd rearrange things so that the audio works well at any seating position I plan to utilize....

PS You might consider Pioneer/MCACC as that has more of what you're looking for with different calibrations changed easily...
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post #713 of 7169 Old 07-11-2016, 01:23 PM
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I move both to the left and to the back (a little over 1 meter / 3.2 feet). I won't need to adjust the balance for the rear speakers however, since I only use those for watching movies i.e. when I move to my alternate position.
Rather than use the level trims, try the distance settings adjusting them to your different position. Alternately, if it is easier to use level trims, it might take an extra dB or two to override the precedence effect.

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post #714 of 7169 Old 07-11-2016, 04:02 PM
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Distance and trim variances

A question and a little concern:

Which device sets the speaker distances and levels--Audyssey or the AVR?
Each time I run the calibration, my front left speakers are set about a foot further away than what they actually are by tape measure.
Further, the trim levels for the left and right speakers change every time. For instance, sometimes the FR speaker is set at +2, the next time it is +4.5. A pretty significant difference. Similarly, the subwoofer is -4.5 one time, and then -6 the next.
Each of these results make an audible difference.
Which one is the "real" one? Should I just trust the most recent calibration and not worry about it? Should I set the distances to what they measure on the tape measure? Is the difference in distance/trim compensated for somehow by the Audyssey EQ?

I hope this makes sense.

Thanks.
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post #715 of 7169 Old 07-11-2016, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by maestro50 View Post
A question and a little concern:

Which device sets the speaker distances and levels--Audyssey or the AVR?
Each time I run the calibration, my front left speakers are set about a foot further away than what they actually are by tape measure.
Further, the trim levels for the left and right speakers change every time. For instance, sometimes the FR speaker is set at +2, the next time it is +4.5. A pretty significant difference. Similarly, the subwoofer is -4.5 one time, and then -6 the next.
Each of these results make an audible difference.
Which one is the "real" one? Should I just trust the most recent calibration and not worry about it? Should I set the distances to what they measure on the tape measure? Is the difference in distance/trim compensated for somehow by the Audyssey EQ?

I hope this makes sense.

Thanks.
Technically, the AVR sets distances and levels based on the information Audyssey gives it.

Having your trims vary by that much is definitely not normal. Are you using a mic boom (or at least a tripod) for the Audyssey mic? Is your first mic position always in the same place (give or take an inch or two)?
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post #716 of 7169 Old 07-11-2016, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by maestro50 View Post
A question and a little concern:

Which device sets the speaker distances and levels--Audyssey or the AVR?
Each time I run the calibration, my front left speakers are set about a foot further away than what they actually are by tape measure.
Further, the trim levels for the left and right speakers change every time. For instance, sometimes the FR speaker is set at +2, the next time it is +4.5. A pretty significant difference. Similarly, the subwoofer is -4.5 one time, and then -6 the next.
Each of these results make an audible difference.
Which one is the "real" one? Should I just trust the most recent calibration and not worry about it? Should I set the distances to what they measure on the tape measure? Is the difference in distance/trim compensated for somehow by the Audyssey EQ?

I hope this makes sense.

Thanks.

Alan's questions are the same ones I would ask. If you vary your microphone positions from calibration to calibration, the trim levels will change slightly. Those changes are more than I would expect, though. It can be hard to nail down your best calibration, but when you get to a sound you really like, make a written log of your mic positions so you can repeat it if necessary.

Jeff's point on perhaps needing a little extra trim to overcome a slight change in distance is spot on. When you change positions, if you need to, just adjust the trim levels slightly to get things to sound balanced. Trim level is not something to obsess over, though. Just get it to sound good to you. Setting trim levels is the very least of what Audyssey does, so the filters which are the real benefit of Audyssey, won't be affected.
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post #717 of 7169 Old 07-12-2016, 01:48 PM
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Reference v. Bypass

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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Alan's questions are the same ones I would ask. If you vary your microphone positions from calibration to calibration, the trim levels will change slightly. Those changes are more than I would expect, though. It can be hard to nail down your best calibration, but when you get to a sound you really like, make a written log of your mic positions so you can repeat it if necessary.

Jeff's point on perhaps needing a little extra trim to overcome a slight change in distance is spot on. When you change positions, if you need to, just adjust the trim levels slightly to get things to sound balanced. Trim level is not something to obsess over, though. Just get it to sound good to you. Setting trim levels is the very least of what Audyssey does, so the filters which are the real benefit of Audyssey, won't be affected.
Thank you. I measured with more care and all is well on that front.
A new question today (several actually!)--

When I listen to Audyssey in Reference mode, 2-channel stereo, it sounds very good.
But if I switch back and forth between Reference and LR bypass, the bypass mode sounds more "realistic." Oboe, guitar, piano, violin, everything sounds a little bit more like it should (more like I expect it to) in bypass mode.

[Marantz 6010, PSB T2, Hsu VTF-3 Mk5. Crossover in 6010 set at 80Hz]

I understand the answer to these type of questions is always, "find a mode you like and enjoy it." I'll do that, I promise.

But I am wondering, is Reference mode actually more accurate, and I'm just not used to it?
In changing the EQ of the room to overcome its quirks and faults, isn't Audyssey really changing the EQ of the RECORDING, so that it is actually LESS accurate?
Should I give it a week or a month and let my ears adjust?
Surely there are others that have had similar reactions to hearing/adapting/choosing Reference mode? (Oh, I've tried Flat by the way. Nope.)

Or, does it really not matter? I mean, do I get the majority of the "good stuff" out of the processing by using the bass management below 80Hz?

Thank you for letting me pick your collective brains.
I'm an old vet when it comes to stereo listening, but a novice when adding any kind of processing to the chain.
Old habits and old wisdom tell me that adding any processing is dangerous, but I feel foolish not utilizing the technology available to me in the best way that I can.

Thanks,
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Thank you. I measured with more care and all is well on that front.
A new question today (several actually!)--

When I listen to Audyssey in Reference mode, 2-channel stereo, it sounds very good.
But if I switch back and forth between Reference and LR bypass, the bypass mode sounds more "realistic." Oboe, guitar, piano, violin, everything sounds a little bit more like it should (more like I expect it to) in bypass mode.

[Marantz 6010, PSB T2, Hsu VTF-3 Mk5. Crossover in 6010 set at 80Hz]

I understand the answer to these type of questions is always, "find a mode you like and enjoy it." I'll do that, I promise.

But I am wondering, is Reference mode actually more accurate, and I'm just not used to it?
In changing the EQ of the room to overcome its quirks and faults, isn't Audyssey really changing the EQ of the RECORDING, so that it is actually LESS accurate?
Should I give it a week or a month and let my ears adjust?
Surely there are others that have had similar reactions to hearing/adapting/choosing Reference mode? (Oh, I've tried Flat by the way. Nope.)

Or, does it really not matter? I mean, do I get the majority of the "good stuff" out of the processing by using the bass management below 80Hz?

Thank you for letting me pick your collective brains.
I'm an old vet when it comes to stereo listening, but a novice when adding any kind of processing to the chain.
Old habits and old wisdom tell me that adding any processing is dangerous, but I feel foolish not utilizing the technology available to me in the best way that I can.

Thanks,

You are welcome! Well, I'll give you one perspective. FWIW, I don't really consider what Audyssey is doing as processing, although I understand that intuitive reaction. What I see Audyssey as trying to do is to keep the room/speaker interaction from interfering too much with the sound that you should be hearing. And that should make the music more, not less, accurate.

To do that, it attempts to correct any big peaks or dips in volume all the way up the frequency spectrum from 10Hz to 20KHz. I believe that the goal is to try to achieve about +/- 3db for every speaker, at every frequency. And in theory, that helps to take constructive and destructive interference out of the equation, to the extent that an automated room correction system can.

But it gets more complicated when you add in the Reference Curve, which has a dip at about 2500Hz, and which attenuates the upper frequencies a bit. And then, it gets a little more complicated again, when DEQ is introduced into the equation, because among other things, it boosts bass frequencies at below Reference volumes.

There are reasons why Audyssey does those things, but I'm not discussing the merits of the Reference Curve, or of DEQ, but only how it may affect your perception of a more, or less, natural sound. Speaking only for myself, in my room, with my system, the most natural sound is achieved with Flat, no DEQ, and -1 Treble on my front speakers (using my Tone Control). Others on the thread will undoubtedly have entirely different views regarding what makes acoustical instruments, with which they are familiar, sound most natural in their rooms, with their systems.

Your starting point is ultimately going to have to be your ending point, though. Regardless of the merits of using Audyssey in my system, in the way I described, or in other ways as may be described by others, your own ears are the final arbiter of what works best for you. I would experiment extensively, giving myself plenty of time to listen to different variations and settings, and ultimately pick the one I like best. If it happens to be Bypass L/R, so be it. And yes, you will still get real benefits just from EQing the sub-80Hz, or so, frequencies.

If you are like many of us, you may find yourself making slight adjustments from time-to-time, regardless of what you pick. And some people even go back and forth between settings in a fairly major way. There is absolutely no single right way to listen, particularly where music is concerned.

But I would try not to be influenced by preconceptions regarding "processing", because the Audyssey filters themselves are not a form of processing, as I see it, although the Reference Curve and DEQ may be considered that. I think it's useful to distinguish between Audyssey filters which simply attempt to remove interference, and Audyssey settings which are intended to appeal to the majority of listeners. And Audyssey's Reference Curve and DEQ were not filters, but settings, originally developed with 5.1 Dolby films in mind. If they also happen to work perfectly for music, as they do for some people, that is a bonus.
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Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 07-12-2016 at 02:37 PM.
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post #719 of 7169 Old 07-12-2016, 02:43 PM
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Hi,

That's puzzling! Assuming that neither of the subs was moved at all, I can only think of two possibilities. Either something has changed with your microphone (based on having done microprocessor resets to test your AVR) or something has changed with at least one of the subs. (You could try a couple more AVR resets, just in case.) You might try testing the subs individually to try to determine whether both are performing properly, and you can buy a replacement microphone. Beyond that, I am stumped at the moment. Were your post-calibration results different lately from what they used to be? Were the trim levels, distances, and crossovers approximately the same. If your microphone were going bad, I would expect some calibration result to be different. If you had moved mic position 1 by even a few inches, I suppose you could get such a different result, but you say you didn't?

Here's one tip which may be tangential to your fundamental problem. But it's worth exploring. You would be better off doing your next calibration so that you get a trim level of at least -8 or -9 (raise the gain on your subs). That will give you plenty of room to adjust trim levels upward while staying in negative trim levels. It is barely possible that some of that boominess you heard as you raised your trim levels into positive numbers was the subs distorting. Try checking the subs individually, and then re-calibrating with lower trim levels and see what happens. I hope that works.

Regards,
Mike
Did that - didn't seem to make much difference except I do have much more trim to work with.

I tried a different mic, mic positions (tape measure to nearest inch or so) and minor sub positon changes. None of those really helped. What change did help (at least a bit) was to alter the sub distances to be the same as my previous good calibration. New Sub distances are very consistent with each new calibration but slightly different than the original values with the better sub performance.

Original (good) Sub Distances:
SW1: 11.0' - Supercube Reference
SW2: 16.6' - 25-31 PC+

New (poor) Sub Distances:
SW1: 10.8' - Supercube Reference
SW2: 15.2' - 25-31 PC+

When I change the sub distance values to those of the original calibration, bass impact improves but still not the air moving hard hitting impact I had before even with levels bumped up 7-9 dB over Audyssey calibration settings. So something is still not right.

Starting to wonder if there something causing Audyssey to incorrectly set sub phase/distance. Nothing else (and I mean nothing) changed. Recalibrating yields the same disappointing results repeatedly. I don't know, something else seems amiss. Just don't know how to get back to where I was before.....
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post #720 of 7169 Old 07-12-2016, 03:00 PM
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Did that - didn't seem to make much difference except I do have much more trim to work with.

I tried a different mic, mic positions (tape measure to nearest inch or so) and minor sub positon changes. None of those really helped. What change did help (at least a bit) was to alter the sub distances to be the same as my previous good calibration. New Sub distances are very consistent with each new calibration but slightly different than the original values with the better sub performance.

Original (good) Sub Distances:
SW1: 11.0' - Supercube Reference
SW2: 16.6' - 25-31 PC+

New (poor) Sub Distances:
SW1: 10.8' - Supercube Reference
SW2: 15.2' - 25-31 PC+

When I change the sub distance values to those of the original calibration, bass impact improves but still not the air moving hard hitting impact I had before even with levels bumped up 7-9 dB over Audyssey calibration settings. So something is still not right.

Starting to wonder if there something causing Audyssey to incorrectly set sub phase/distance. Nothing else (and I mean nothing) changed. Recalibrating yields the same disappointing results repeatedly. I don't know, something else seems amiss. Just don't know how to get back to where I was before.....
I can imagine how frustrating this must be. Have you tried testing each sub independently to determine if each is performing properly? You have clearly invested some time in this already, so I might take a little more time to make sure that something hasn't simply spontaneously gone bad with one of the subs. You could try operating the system with each one successively (ideally with at least a three-point calibration each time) just to hear what happens.

The other thing that I might do, if that doesn't show you anything, is to forget about why something has changed, and start over from scratch. Do a sub crawl, and try to find the best location for each sub in order to optimize the sound. FWIW, it can be very difficult to EQ two dissimilar subs, with a system of automated EQ, under even the best of circumstances. So, perhaps even the tiniest change could have an exaggerated effect. Life is infinitely easier with two identical, or nearly identical subs, although I realize that is not always possible. We frequently have to work with what we have.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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