"Official" Audyssey thread Part II - Page 240 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #7171 of 7273 Old 11-19-2019, 04:04 AM
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Originally Posted by dvdwilly3 View Post
I ran across something that is worth sharing. I have used Audyssey ever since they started it. It has almost always come up with accurate settings for distance.



However, the crossover settings that it usually comes up with leave me mystified. I have run floor standers...Klipsch, Definitive Tech, Goldenear...so full range...for years. Audyssey has always set them as Small and set crossovers at 40 or 60 hZ. I got these results with my current fronts, GE Triton 5s (40) and GE center Xl (60). That never made any sense because I know that they will go well beyond that.



And, the level settings showed large variations...like as much as +/- 5 dB from speaker to speaker.



Where you enter into the Audyssey setup appears to make a difference, at least with Denon. There are at least 3 different entry points from the main menu...Audio; Setup Assistant; or Speakers. I have usually come into it from Audio and got results as above.



I was having difficulty getting it to run recently and had been looking in various forums. I remember running across one posting that said that you should always launch Audyssey from the Speakers section. So, I did that.



Lo, and behold, Audyssey set my fronts and center channel as Large. And, the other crossover points make more sense. Also, the levels do not vary so widely. The variation is more like +/- 2 dB...



I have not gone back to try to replicate this behavior. The current setup makes sense to me. And, it sounds correct. I am leaving well enough alone.



I did have to boost the bass, but then I always have to boost the bass.


Auto setup has a tendency to set speakers to large even though they arent. Its also good that crossover is usually set too low because its no problem at all to set it higher while setting it lower will give a ‘gap’ in the room calibration filters.
If it sounds great this way go for it, its not always easy to get the best results.


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post #7172 of 7273 Old 11-19-2019, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Leeliemix View Post
Auto setup has a tendency to set speakers to large even though they arent. Its also good that crossover is usually set too low because its no problem at all to set it higher while setting it lower will give a ‘gap’ in the room calibration filters.
If it sounds great this way go for it, its not always easy to get the best results.


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What you say may be true. For me, since I have been using Audyssey...since about 2008, Audyssey has always set my fronts and center speakers as Small with generally 40 or 60 hZ as the crossovers. And, that was with Klipsch, Def Tech, and GE Tech towers... And, in the same room...

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post #7173 of 7273 Old 11-19-2019, 07:41 AM
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"Official" Audyssey thread Part II

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Originally Posted by dvdwilly3 View Post
What you say may be true. For me, since I have been using Audyssey...since about 2008, Audyssey has always set my fronts and center speakers as Small with generally 40 or 60 hZ as the crossovers. And, that was with Klipsch, Def Tech, and GE Tech towers... And, in the same room...


For music large is often preferred but for movies they probably should be set to small with a 40 to 60hz crossover, depends on room and such but very few speakers are flat to 20. Still might be more even bass with them as large in your room.
At the other end i have had several auto setup runs where my bookshelf surround speakers have been set to large lol, they are large for bookshelves but still its just a 6 1/2 inch woofer

Edit: added ‘surround’
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post #7174 of 7273 Old 11-19-2019, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Leeliemix View Post
For music large is often preferred but for movies they probably should be set to small with a 40 to 60hz crossover, depends on room and such but very few speakers are flat to 20. Still might be more even bass with them as large in your room.
At the other end i have had several auto setup runs where my bookshelf surround speakers have been set to large lol, they are large for bookshelves but still its just a 6 1/2 inch woofer

Edit: added ‘surround’

Hi Leeliemix, may I disagree here a bit? Thanks!!

So, as to my knowledge there is no such a thing as treating music and movie sound tracks differently. Why? Coz for a speaker they are both electric signals that are converted to sound pressure by the drivers. A speaker is either good or bad. Music or movies has nothing to do with it.

Furthermore, there are no "tags" in the signal to differentiate them for music or film.

How should music in a film be treated, music or film? How about a concert BD? Is it music or film?

The same bass management rules should apply for each and every program material regardless of its kind.

Thanks for your attention.
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post #7175 of 7273 Old 11-19-2019, 10:55 AM
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"Official" Audyssey thread Part II

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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Hi Leeliemix, may I disagree here a bit? Thanks!!

So, as to my knowledge there is no such a thing as treating music and movie sound tracks differently. Why? Coz for a speaker they are both electric signals that are converted to sound pressure by the drivers. A speaker is either good or bad. Music or movies has nothing to do with it.

Furthermore, there are no "tags" in the signal to differentiate them for music or film.

How should music in a film be treated, music or film? How about a concert BD? Is it music or film?

The same bass management rules should apply for each and every program material regardless of its kind.

Thanks for your attention.


Because unless you have perfectly integrated subs, towers with -3 db at 27/28hz (and lower)will do bass well enough on their own for most music which is why many often dont use subs for the 2ch music they play. Also direct modes are popular and they usually bypass crossovers.

Im not saying not using subs is better, just what works best differs from system to system and room to room ++ and personal preferences. In a system perfectly set up in a dedicated well suited room subs will be superior but how many have that.

Edit: forgot to add that for tv/movies perfectly integrated bass is not as critical for most.

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post #7176 of 7273 Old 11-19-2019, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Leeliemix View Post
Because unless you have perfectly integrated subs, towers with -3 db at 27/28hz (and lower)will do bass well enough on their own for most music which is why many often dont use subs for the 2ch music they play. Also direct modes are popular and they usually bypass crossovers.

Im not saying not using subs is better, just what works best differs from system to system and room to room ++ and personal preferences. In a system perfectly set up in a dedicated well suited room subs will be superior but how many have that.

Edit: forgot to add that for tv/movies perfectly integrated bass is not as critical for most.

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Agree with all the above, but I'm still trying to say that there is no difference in reproducing film or music on the same system, which was my original point provided we have a "perfectly" set up sound system or a bad system.
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post #7177 of 7273 Old 11-19-2019, 11:01 AM
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Agree with all the above, but I'm still trying to say that there is no difference in reproducing film or music on the same system, which was my original point provided we have a "perfectly" set up sound system.


Thats true yes.


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post #7178 of 7273 Old 11-19-2019, 11:03 AM
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Thats true yes.


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Thanks, glad we are in agreement!
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post #7179 of 7273 Old 11-19-2019, 11:09 AM
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Thanks, glad we are in agreement!


And i want a good room and no placement restrictions because of furniture, the need to get to the terrace and so on


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post #7180 of 7273 Old 11-19-2019, 11:14 AM
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And i want a good room and no placement restrictions because of furniture, the need to get to the terrace and so on


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+1.
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post #7181 of 7273 Old 11-20-2019, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by dvdwilly3 View Post
What you say may be true. For me, since I have been using Audyssey...since about 2008, Audyssey has always set my fronts and center speakers as Small with generally 40 or 60 hZ as the crossovers. And, that was with Klipsch, Def Tech, and GE Tech towers... And, in the same room...
You know after all that I could not leave well enough alone. Looking at the response curve for the Triton 5...60 hz is falling and 40 hZ falls off the cliff...I went into Manual and changed them from Full Range to Small and set the x-overs to 60 hZ. I do like that better. And, I may try 80 hZ to compare.

I still like the response curves better...less extreme...though now, I am not sure how much difference it really makes...

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post #7182 of 7273 Old 11-20-2019, 02:48 PM
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You know after all that I could not leave well enough alone. Looking at the response curve for the Triton 5...60 hz is falling and 40 hZ falls off the cliff...I went into Manual and changed them from Full Range to Small and set the x-overs to 60 hZ. I do like that better. And, I may try 80 hZ to compare.

I still like the response curves better...less extreme...though now, I am not sure how much difference it really makes...

In my opinion and experience you will not hear a significant audible difference between 60 Hz and 80 Hz crossover. The point is that a higher crossover will surely result in less strain put on your channel amplifiers especially when Master Volume is turned up pretty high. This means you are letting your sub(s) do the heavy weight lifting coz deep bass reproduction really needs a lot of power. Best when leaving this job to the sub(s).
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post #7183 of 7273 Old 11-20-2019, 07:14 PM
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Audyssey quick adjust settings?

Hi Everyone, I havent fully read through every post yet - but is there a way to quickly adjust Audyssey without diving into the settings menus? Like, if I wanted to adjust the Dynamic Volume etc. When I push 'Options' I just get all stereo and ch level adjust. The bottom sound modes dont seem to change Audyssey. Thanks!
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post #7184 of 7273 Old 11-21-2019, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by guacamoleparty View Post
Hi Everyone, I havent fully read through every post yet - but is there a way to quickly adjust Audyssey without diving into the settings menus? Like, if I wanted to adjust the Dynamic Volume etc. When I push 'Options' I just get all stereo and ch level adjust. The bottom sound modes dont seem to change Audyssey. Thanks!

You can make this change using Denon AVR app available. I am not sure all the adjustments that are available within the app off the top of my head but Dynamic Volume and Dynamic EQ are available. Sub level is also possible within app. It is a pretty useful app that has a lot of info and adjustments you can make on the fly.



One thing I really like is being able to make the changes without bring up on screen menus to distract from viewing especially if I want to make a change when watching TV with the wife!


Barry
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post #7185 of 7273 Old 11-21-2019, 09:07 AM
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First, thnx all for the help. Im now happy with My setup and slot of the tips help. My ears feel no pain anymore.

Just for some tips and tricks from you guys.
When u setup the subwoofer volume/gain for movies, do you tune it in to some music and set the sub were it just blends with the music and have it like that for movies to or do you crank the sub up for movies?

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post #7186 of 7273 Old 11-21-2019, 09:35 AM
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One thing I really like is being able to make the changes without bring up on screen menus to distract from viewing especially if I want to make a change when watching TV with the wife!

Barry
This exactly! My wife doesnt mind, but she doesnt need to see my tweaking and fussing about! Super appreciate it!
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post #7187 of 7273 Old 11-21-2019, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by guacamoleparty View Post
Hi Everyone, I havent fully read through every post yet - but is there a way to quickly adjust Audyssey without diving into the settings menus? Like, if I wanted to adjust the Dynamic Volume etc. When I push 'Options' I just get all stereo and ch level adjust. The bottom sound modes dont seem to change Audyssey. Thanks!
I programmed some "soft keys" on my Harmony One remote to turn DynEQ and DynVol off or on. Nice to know that these settings are in the free Denon app as well.

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post #7188 of 7273 Old 11-22-2019, 01:09 AM
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I programmed some "soft keys" on my Harmony One remote to turn DynEQ and DynVol off or on. Nice to know that these settings are in the free Denon app as well.


That would be helpful. Didn’t see this Commands available on MyHarmony Elite using a Denon X6500. That would be a nice toggle option when I want full range or enable Dynamic Volume.
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I have free time today to mess around with my subwoofer. I have previously posted about a -10dB null around 35hz (where 30hz and 40hz are fine). After Audyssey XT32, it's about -5dB...I don't really notice it during movies, have plenty of nice clean/smooth bass and tactile response.

Anyway, I can move it around a bit more now but it will stay in the general same corner....how many inches/feet would I need to play with to try and remove that null? Is it even worth fussing about?

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post #7190 of 7273 Old 11-22-2019, 08:38 AM
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I have free time today to mess around with my subwoofer. I have previously posted about a -10dB null around 35hz (where 30hz and 40hz are fine). After Audyssey XT32, it's about -5dB...I don't really notice it during movies, have plenty of nice clean/smooth bass and tactile response.
Anyway, I can move it around a bit more now but it will stay in the general same corner....how many inches/feet would I need to play with to try and remove that null? Is it even worth fussing about?

First thing I'd like to ask: was your result of having a -10 dB null around 35 Hz based on in-room measurements?
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post #7191 of 7273 Old 11-22-2019, 12:01 PM
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First thing I'd like to ask: was your result of having a -10 dB null around 35 Hz based on in-room measurements?
I used my SPL meter only (not REW), after Audyssey. My meter is rated to 31.5hz and I fed it 35hz signal from tone generator and it confirms the approximate/estimated multieq app graphs. It's flat from about 40hz to 120hz.

One thing I noticed while testing just now, moving the subwoofer up to 2' didn't show any differences, but moving the mic a couple inches results in a flat graph for the sub....strange.

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post #7192 of 7273 Old 11-22-2019, 12:20 PM
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I used my SPL meter only (not REW), after Audyssey. My meter is rated to 31.5hz and I fed it 35hz signal from tone generator and it confirms the approximate/estimated multieq app graphs. It's flat from about 40hz to 120hz.
"C" weighted SPL meter?
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"C" weighted SPL meter?
Yup

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post #7194 of 7273 Old 11-22-2019, 01:39 PM
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That would be helpful. Didn’t see this Commands available on MyHarmony Elite using a Denon X6500. That would be a nice toggle option when I want full range or enable Dynamic Volume.
I am using the Logitech Harmony Remote Software to program my Harmony One. There are commands available to turn on and off Dyn EQ and DynVol. I think the Logitech web-based software offers fewer options, but I could be wrong...

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post #7195 of 7273 Old 11-23-2019, 12:02 PM
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I used my SPL meter only (not REW), after Audyssey. My meter is rated to 31.5hz and I fed it 35hz signal from tone generator and it confirms the approximate/estimated multieq app graphs. It's flat from about 40hz to 120hz.

One thing I noticed while testing just now, moving the subwoofer up to 2' didn't show any differences, but moving the mic a couple inches results in a flat graph for the sub....strange.

Nothing strange here coz you are doing single-point measurement in space with your SPL meter. Audyssey takes 6-8 measurements and combines them with their algorithm. You could get closer to reality by using REW and averaging the multi-point measurements.



Just a thought.
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post #7196 of 7273 Old 11-23-2019, 01:05 PM
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I have free time today to mess around with my subwoofer. I have previously posted about a -10dB null around 35hz (where 30hz and 40hz are fine). After Audyssey XT32, it's about -5dB...I don't really notice it during movies, have plenty of nice clean/smooth bass and tactile response.

Anyway, I can move it around a bit more now but it will stay in the general same corner....how many inches/feet would I need to play with to try and remove that null? Is it even worth fussing about?
Peaks are usually more noticeable than nulls for a few reasons. One is simply that we seem to be more sensitive to peaks than to nulls but peaks are noticeable in 2 ways. First they can sound louder than sounds at other frequencies and second because the decay of the sound at a peak frequency takes longer than the decay of sound at other frequencies and that longer decay can audibly "muddy" the sound of the bass, making it appear to drag. On the other hand nulls are simply not noticeable unless there's actually a sound at that frequency which you expect to hear but don't hear. With music recordings you could have a deep null at a frequency which isn't a musical note and never notice the null because you never played anything at that frequency. Soundtracks to movies and TV shows are different because there's lots of sounds such as explosions, engines, etc which include frequencies which don't coincide with musical notes so if the null is at a frequency not associated with a musical note then there is a chance of noticing it when listening to non-musical sounds in a soundtrack. In the end, nulls are far less noticeable than peaks which is good because you can't fix a null by increasing the level of that frequency, the increase in power you throw at that frequency suffers the same cancellation problems that the frequency is getting from the room and your amp will run out of power before you manage to cancel the null.


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Originally Posted by pbz06 View Post
I used my SPL meter only (not REW), after Audyssey. My meter is rated to 31.5hz and I fed it 35hz signal from tone generator and it confirms the approximate/estimated multieq app graphs. It's flat from about 40hz to 120hz.

One thing I noticed while testing just now, moving the subwoofer up to 2' didn't show any differences, but moving the mic a couple inches results in a flat graph for the sub....strange.

Not strange. Walk around your room while your sub is playing a constant sound, say a 40 Hz tone, and watch your sound meter response, it will vary up and down. There are areas in a room which are high pressure zones and areas which are low pressure zones. The meter will show a higher level in a high pressure zone than it does in a low pressure zone. Room corners, for example, are high pressure zones so you will almost certainly see a difference in level between the level you measure at the listening position and the level you measure in a corner. If you move the sub you don't change the location of the high and low pressure zones in your room, they're determined by the room's shape and size, so depending on the distance you were from the sub when you were making measurements you may well not see a change in level when you move the sub 2' but don't move the mic. On the other hand, when you move the mic you're moving it in what is essentially a pressure gradient and if you move it from a low pressure zone where the null is occurring into a higher pressure area where the null is absent then you will get a flatter result even though you didn't move the sub. Sometimes small changes in mic position can make a big difference and what that also means is that small changes in your listening position can make a difference so if you're having a problem getting enough bass, one of the things you can always consider is moving the listening position backwards or forwards a little. That can sometimes solve the problem.

BTW, pressure in the room is distributed in 3 dimensions so moving the mic up and down can result in differences in reading just as moving it forwards/backwards and left/right results in differences. That's why calibration measurements are made at ear height in the listening area, the level can change at heights above and below your ear level.
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post #7197 of 7273 Old 11-26-2019, 08:21 PM
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Really basic question, but do you guys boost your center channel at all from where Audyssey sets it? I checked my speakers post-cal with an SPL meter, and they were pretty balanced. I added +1 dB to my center just to make sure dialogue has a slight edge.
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post #7198 of 7273 Old 11-26-2019, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Overrid3 View Post
Really basic question, but do you guys boost your center channel at all from where Audyssey sets it? I checked my speakers post-cal with an SPL meter, and they were pretty balanced. I added +1 dB to my center just to make sure dialogue has a slight edge.
I don't. 1 dB is a pretty small change.
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post #7199 of 7273 Old 11-26-2019, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Overrid3 View Post
Really basic question, but do you guys boost your center channel at all from where Audyssey sets it? I checked my speakers post-cal with an SPL meter, and they were pretty balanced. I added +1 dB to my center just to make sure dialogue has a slight edge.
I just make sure they're balanced when I double check the Audyssey results with external test tones. I don't add anything extra, but I know some people do. I just doubt it really make an audible difference.
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post #7200 of 7273 Old 11-26-2019, 09:52 PM
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I just make sure they're balanced when I double check the Audyssey results with external test tones. I don't add anything extra, but I know some people do. I just doubt it really make an audible difference.

Yeah, probably not much of a difference. The one main speaker was fluctuating between 2 readings, so I just bumped up the center a tad. They actually read 76 or 77 dB, but maybe that's just a discrepancy between my radio shack meter and the Audyssey mic? At any rate, things sound good I've read in some other threads what people like to boost their centers a bit to make sure the dialogue is clear.
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