"Official" Audyssey thread Part II - Page 242 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #7231 of 7897 Old 12-05-2019, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
OK, I get it from Xtz. Actually they are taking about subs that have an "auto wake up" feature. This means the sub will stay off below a certain level and kick-in (auto-turn-on) when the input level reaches that triggering point. My Dali sub has the same, but it can be disabled with an on/off switch on the rear side of the sub.

I don't want my sub to turn off when Master Volume is set so low that the sub if defeated, so I keep that feature out of site, my sub always stays "awake" even at the lowest MV setting, like for example when I have guests and I play a little background music for my friends at say -50 dB and the bass still remains intact!

Hope this helps!
1. So I set the gain of the subwoofer so as to get the level of about 0 dB at the end of the calibration?

2. Should I use the two sponges I found in the two holes of the subwoofer?

3. audyssey Dynamic EQ: is it better to set On or OFF?
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post #7232 of 7897 Old 12-05-2019, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by senzaparole View Post
1. So I set the gain of the subwoofer so as to get the level of about 0 dB at the end of the calibration?

2. Should I use the two sponges I found in the two holes of the subwoofer?

3. audyssey Dynamic EQ: is it better to set On or OFF?

1. Nope. You should set the gain of the sub to get a level between -6 dB to -11 dB at the end of the calibration.


2. Actually you have four choices: no port plug, left port plug, right port plug and both port plug. Only you can decide which sounds best in your specific room. Try to experiment, then run Audyssey calibration program.


3. DynamicEQ is a tool to compensate the human ear's characteristics as the Master Volume is turned down. At 0 dB MV we hear the full frequency range, but as soon as we start to turn down the Master Volume our ears start to loose sensitivity to bass and treble. DynamicEQ keeps the percived frequency range constant. Turn down MV to say -20 dB and turn DynamicEQ on and off and listen carefully. Decision is again in your hands.
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post #7233 of 7897 Old 12-06-2019, 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
1. Nope. You should set the gain of the sub to get a level between -6 dB to -11 dB at the end of the calibration.


Excuse me. I'm confused.
The producer writes to me that the level of the subwoofer should be between 0db and + 3db.
Instead you write to me that the level of the subwoofer must be between -6db and -11db.
Are you absolutely certain of what you wrote to me?
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post #7234 of 7897 Old 12-06-2019, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by senzaparole View Post
Excuse me. I'm confused.

The producer writes to me that the level of the subwoofer should be between 0db and + 3db.

Instead you write to me that the level of the subwoofer must be between -6db and -11db.

Are you absolutely certain of what you wrote to me?


A low starting point gives less chance of pre outs clipping which can be a problem on some AVRs while many subs can have difficulties turning on with the same low sub out signal. Also a lot of people, if not most, turn the sub level up 3 to 6dB(some even more) which if sub out is at +3 already increases the chance of output clipping. Some subs cant achieve full power with a very low input signal.

As you can see there are many considerations and in the end it depends on your equipment and use whats best for you.
If you want a middle ground -5dB can be good at calibration if you increase a little after. -unless sub auto wake is slow, then start a little higher.


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post #7235 of 7897 Old 12-06-2019, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Leeliemix View Post
A low starting point gives less chance of pre outs clipping which can be a problem on some AVRs while many subs can have difficulties turning on with the same low sub out signal. Also a lot of people, if not most, turn the sub level up 3 to 6dB(some even more) which if sub out is at +3 already increases the chance of output clipping. Some subs cant achieve full power with a very low input signal.

As you can see there are many considerations and in the end it depends on your equipment and use whats best for you.
If you want a middle ground -5dB can be good at calibration if you increase a little after. -unless sub auto wake is slow, then start a little higher.


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For 11 years I set my sub trim at -3 dB on my Onkyo 706 with MultEq. I now set the sub the same way with my Denon 3500 with MultEq XT32. No problems at all with those settings.
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post #7236 of 7897 Old 12-06-2019, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post
For 11 years I set my sub trim at -3 dB on my Onkyo 706 with MultEq. I now set the sub the same way with my Denon 3500 with MultEq XT32. No problems at all with those settings.

During calibration did you turn the gain of the subwoofer to get a level of -3db at the end of the calibration?

XTZ wrote to me that a level too low does not activate the subwoofer:

If it has set it to negative value, ie. -6 dB or similar, the signal to the subwoofer is probably too weak to trigger it. Then you can lower the gain on the bit subwoofer, run the calibration again. Repeat lowering the gain until the value for the subwoofer output level is 0 dB or even up to +3 dB. This way, the receiver will be able to react.
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post #7237 of 7897 Old 12-06-2019, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by senzaparole View Post
During calibration did you turn the gain of the subwoofer to get a level of -3db at the end of the calibration?

XTZ wrote to me that a level too low does not activate the subwoofer:

If it has set it to negative value, ie. -6 dB or similar, the signal to the subwoofer is probably too weak to trigger it. Then you can lower the gain on the bit subwoofer, run the calibration again. Repeat lowering the gain until the value for the subwoofer output level is 0 dB or even up to +3 dB. This way, the receiver will be able to react.
The sub volume control was set to 9:00 o'clock prior to calibration. The resulting Audyssey trim level is -3 dB. I have had the sub for a number of years and know pretty well what sub settings are required to obtain my desired Audyssey trim levels. I don't use the auto on function for the sub. It is on all the time unless we go away, then I turn it off.
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post #7238 of 7897 Old 12-06-2019, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by senzaparole View Post
Excuse me. I'm confused.
The producer writes to me that the level of the subwoofer should be between 0db and + 3db.
Instead you write to me that the level of the subwoofer must be between -6db and -11db.
Are you absolutely certain of what you wrote to me?
Please see this section of mthomas47's Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences (linked in my sig) for an explanation of why you want to keep sub trims well below 0dB:

Master Volume Levels And Sub Boosts


If you want to learn even more about subwoofer calibration (and many other HT topics), click the link in my sig for the full guide.
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post #7239 of 7897 Old 12-06-2019, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by senzaparole View Post
During calibration did you turn the gain of the subwoofer to get a level of -3db at the end of the calibration?

XTZ wrote to me that a level too low does not activate the subwoofer:

If it has set it to negative value, ie. -6 dB or similar, the signal to the subwoofer is probably too weak to trigger it. Then you can lower the gain on the bit subwoofer, run the calibration again. Repeat lowering the gain until the value for the subwoofer output level is 0 dB or even up to +3 dB. This way, the receiver will be able to react.

Hi,

Several others, including both Feri and Alan, have already addressed this issue. But, let me add that I believe you are overthinking this. You do not need to follow XTZ's specific recommendation for the trim level unless you actually are having a problem with the subwoofer coming on from Auto mode, with a lower trim level. You will surely be able to tell whether the sub comes on or not, and you can adjust the trim up and down to test it as much as you like.

The best practice recommendations in the Guide are somewhat generic, without the advantage of knowing what specific subwoofer/AVR combination you have. And XTZ's recommendation is also generic. For instance, it would be much more applicable to older generations of Yamaha AVR's, which sent a lower-voltage signal to the subwoofer unless the trim level were high, rather than to Denon/Marantz AVR's.

As explained in the Guide section that Alan linked for you, there are actually two reasons why individuals may be better off using higher subwoofer gain settings, and correspondingly lower AVR trim settings. The first reason involves the possibility of the subwoofer clipping at higher trim levels when they are combined with louder overall master volume levels.

The second reason involves the fact that not all subwoofers can achieve max volume levels unless the gain is set relatively high. That sometimes varies with subwoofer models, even within specific subwoofer brands. The best practice guidelines are merely intended to provide general guidance to avoid those two potential issues. But, individuals are always perfectly free to experiment for themselves, and to decide for themselves what specific advice is directly applicable to their situations.

I'm writing this for others who may be reading along, as much as I am for your specific situation. Rather than overthinking it, I recommend that you just discover for yourself at what AVR trim setting your subwoofer will reliably turn-on from Auto mode.

Regards,
Mike


Edit: Noticing your other question, I should add that the port plugs change the tuning point of your ported subwoofer. I assume from your statement about having two foam plugs that you have a 17 Series subwoofer.

If you are plugging a port, the one you choose to plug will affect the frequency response of your subwoofer, as will plugging both ports. As Feri said, you will have to decide for yourself which mode you prefer. The one port plugged mode will give you the deepest extension, and the most SPL below 20Hz. XTZ explains what the different port tunes do on their website, and they include frequency response graphs for the different options which are available to you.

It may be important that you change the setting on the subwoofer's plate amp to correspond to the new tuning point you are trying. You have the option of EQ1 and EQ2. The digital signal processing (DSP) in the subwoofer is intended to correspond to the various plug configurations, and you have quite a bit of user adjustability. You should rerun Audyssey if you change the tuning point on your sub.

In my opinion, this issue of port configuration is actually much more significant, with respect to your overall bass, than the issue of gain/trim setting. This is where I would spend some of my time reading the XTZ website, and then experimenting to discover what combination of port plug and DSP sounds best to you.
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 12-06-2019 at 11:40 AM.
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post #7240 of 7897 Old 12-06-2019, 12:04 PM
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Is there a thread to discuss/post Audyssey MultiEq Editor App results, and get some recommendations? I have a hard time figuring out what to tweak, including turning midrange compensation on or off. Thanks!
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post #7241 of 7897 Old 12-06-2019, 12:04 PM
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I apologize if this is in the wrong area, but before I run Audyssey again (and my wife kills me), regarding the center channel placement - I currently have it to the edge of my media cabinet but the L and R speakers are a bit further back - i would say the front of the L and R are about 7 inches further back. Would this cause a problem? Should they all be IN line if viewed from the side and thusly the LR closer to my seating position? Thank you in advanced!
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Originally Posted by exm View Post
Is there a thread to discuss/post Audyssey MultiEq Editor App results, and get some recommendations? I have a hard time figuring out what to tweak, including turning midrange compensation on or off. Thanks!
There is a general Audyssey MultiEq Editor App thread, and they do discuss these type of things.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...l#post56565524
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I apologize if this is in the wrong area, but before I run Audyssey again (and my wife kills me), regarding the center channel placement - I currently have it to the edge of my media cabinet but the L and R speakers are a bit further back - i would say the front of the L and R are about 7 inches further back. Would this cause a problem? Should they all be IN line if viewed from the side and thusly the LR closer to my seating position? Thank you in advanced!
You'll be fine, the calibration will adjust for the different distances. As far as the center speaker placement, that should be good, as well, or even hang it over the edge, but having it at the edge should stop any potential reflection issues with the cabinet.
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post #7244 of 7897 Old 12-06-2019, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by guacamoleparty View Post
I apologize if this is in the wrong area, but before I run Audyssey again (and my wife kills me), regarding the center channel placement - I currently have it to the edge of my media cabinet but the L and R speakers are a bit further back - i would say the front of the L and R are about 7 inches further back. Would this cause a problem? Should they all be IN line if viewed from the side and thusly the LR closer to my seating position? Thank you in advanced!

Hi,

Having the center channel at the front edge of the cabinet is helpful to avoid comb filtering (distortion) created by the bottom or sides of a shelf. If the left and right speakers are floor-standing, or on independent stands, there is no reason to have them exactly in-line with the CC. Audyssey will set different distances for the speakers to compensate for the difference in arrival time of the sound, and your ears could never pick-up the 7" difference in any case.

If, however, the L and R speaker are also sitting on that cabinet, and are 7" back from the edge, then it might be worthwhile to try moving them forward. Vertical speakers are not as susceptible to reflections from a shelf as a horizontal speaker, such as a center channel, would be. (It's mainly the mid-range and treble frequencies that will be reflecting from a shelf. And the drivers that play those frequencies are usually higher in the cabinet than they would be with a horizontal center channel.) But, you may still get slightly better sound quality/clarity if they are moved forward a bit, so that they aren't reflecting off the shelf as much.

I sympathize with your wife. Listening to repetitive Audyssey calibrations isn't a lot of fun. But, if you do move the speakers, you will need to rerun Audyssey.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #7245 of 7897 Old 12-06-2019, 12:37 PM
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Hi,

Having the center channel at the front edge of the cabinet is helpful to avoid comb filtering (distortion) created by the bottom or sides of a shelf. If the left and right speakers are floor-standing, or on independent stands, there is no reason to have them exactly in-line with the CC. Audyssey will set different distances for the speakers to compensate for the difference in arrival time of the sound, and your ears could never pick-up the 7" difference in any case.

If, however, the L and R speaker are also sitting on that cabinet, and are 7" back from the edge, then it might be worthwhile to try moving them forward. Vertical speakers are not as susceptible to reflections from a shelf as a horizontal speaker, such as a center channel, would be. (It's mainly the mid-range and treble frequencies that will be reflecting from a shelf. And the drivers that play those frequencies are usually higher in the cabinet than they would be with a horizontal center channel.) But, you may still get slightly better sound quality/clarity if they are moved forward a bit, so that they aren't reflecting off the shelf as much.

I sympathize with your wife. Listening to repetitive Audyssey calibrations isn't a lot of fun. But, if you do move the speakers, you will need to rerun Audyssey.

Regards,
Mike
Hah its not so much my wife who care, but our 3 dogs tend to freak out and hide, hah! Well the L and R are on separate smaller side tables and higher up by a slight amount (they're on foam/yoga blocks) for ear height. It all sounds great, Ill maybe run it again when no one is home with them closer and see if I like it better.

Thanks
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post #7246 of 7897 Old 12-06-2019, 12:53 PM
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thank you all for the answers.

the power of my subwoofer is not set to auto but always on.

So if I understand your answers correctly, I can also adjust the gain of the subwoofer to get -6db at the end of the calibration and be sure that the subwoofer will always activate.
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post #7247 of 7897 Old 12-06-2019, 07:20 PM
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If you don't need a great deal of boost for your sub on some program material, or you're not perversely interested in audionervosa, don't even read this.

I hear no clipping whatsoever from my sub, even with relatively high trim settings in my AVP, but my OCD nature makes me wonder whether I could have predicted "no clipping" from info from the component manufacturers. Do AVPs have higher clean outputs from the sub out than AVRs? [Note: I would certainly turn up the gain on the volume control on the sub itself (and turn down the trim setting on the AVP) if I could get to the sub volume control, but my sub is buried in the wall with grille cloth over the hole, and I don't want to open it up.]

In the old days, when antediluvian patriarchs were running the audio companies, just about everything that had an input had an input sensitivity specified in the manual and on the spec sheets. So, my old power amp, IIRC had an input sensitivity of 1volt to produce the rated power in watts out. My old McIntosh preamp had a 12 volt output (McIntosh didn't fool around), so I could be fairly sure (!) I wouldn't clip the preamp output in persuading the power amp to produce rated power. Most preamps only put out 2-3 volts then; one I remember outputted 0.775 volts.

I looked at the spec sheet for my sub, and found no input sensitivity listed, but I accessed the service manual online (after inputting way too much ID), and found that the input sensitivity is 200mVrms @ 40Hz to produce max SPL. My AVP says it puts out 2 volts at 0 dB, but out of what? Is that the output rating of each of the various channels that have a trim control, including the AVP's subwoofer out? No service manual is available (to me) for the AVP. If the output rating for the AVP is for each of the outputs, with all channels operating, I would have a 10:1 ratio, but I'm pretty sure that would be with the inaccessible gain control on the sub itself all the way up, so I'll just have to be happy not hearing clipping. Time for a Zoloft.
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post #7248 of 7897 Old 12-07-2019, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
To me it look absolutely OK for all speakers.

As regard the sub, the -0.5 dB seems a tad bit too high. General consensus is to have the sub level somewhere in the mid negatives, but not lower than -11 dB.

For best results you may rerun Audyssey calibration with the sub GAIN set to "noon" (12 am). That will surely result in a lower level trim. The importance of this setting is that you will be able to boost a couple of dBs on the sub to taste once you feel the need to have a little more extra bass (we all have that particular feeling!) and won't need to worry about saturation in the subwoofer chain causing distortion.
Hi!
I redid the calibration.
I set the gain of the diver at 12 o'clock before starting the calibration.
During the calibration Audyssey asks me to lower the gain of the subwoofer up to around 75 db. I turned the sub knob until I saw about 79/80 db on the TV screen.
I continued the calibration.
At the end of the calibration I noticed that the level of the sub is -6db.
All correct?

If in a specific situation I wanted to hear stronger bass, I manually change the level of the sub by setting -4db (without redoing the automatic calibration).
Did I get it right?
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post #7249 of 7897 Old 12-07-2019, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by senzaparole View Post
Hi!
I redid the calibration.
I set the gain of the diver at 12 o'clock before starting the calibration.
During the calibration Audyssey asks me to lower the gain of the subwoofer up to around 75 db. I turned the sub knob until I saw about 79/80 db on the TV screen.
I continued the calibration.
At the end of the calibration I noticed that the level of the sub is -6db.
All correct?

If in a specific situation I wanted to hear stronger bass, I manually change the level of the sub by setting -4db (without redoing the automatic calibration).
Did I get it right?
Yes and yes.
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post #7250 of 7897 Old 12-07-2019, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by senzaparole View Post
Hi!

I redid the calibration.

I set the gain of the diver at 12 o'clock before starting the calibration.

During the calibration Audyssey asks me to lower the gain of the subwoofer up to around 75 db. I turned the sub knob until I saw about 79/80 db on the TV screen.

I continued the calibration.

At the end of the calibration I noticed that the level of the sub is -6db.

All correct?



If in a specific situation I wanted to hear stronger bass, I manually change the level of the sub by setting -4db (without redoing the automatic calibration).

Did I get it right?


You can easily go up to 0 when you want more bass.


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post #7251 of 7897 Old 12-07-2019, 01:00 PM
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Yes and yes.

+1.
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post #7252 of 7897 Old 12-07-2019, 05:17 PM
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Hi, I have been owning this Velodyne Cht-8q unit for last 10 years. Currently using with new receiver Denon 3500H, after Audy calibration etc, I playback with the Dolby Atmos Demo disc. In one of the demo, Horizon, there is a subwoofer bass issue which I do not know what is it. In the scene where the gush of water fell from the cliff before a rower appear, my sub would sound a small pop and silent for a quick second and then continue to put out the bass for the rest of the demo. In another demo, Amaze, at the scene when it say powerful bass, there is period of small static, clucky noise which follows when the word flash across the scene. My master volume on Denon was -15 during demo, subwoofer volume was 36, AVR trim level was -8. May I know what is this issue known as? Bottoming out or clipping or something else? I googled these 2 terms and it does not seem to be the same noise that I'm hearing from my own sub. Thanks.

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post #7253 of 7897 Old 12-07-2019, 06:05 PM
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Hi, I have been owning this Velodyne Cht-8q unit for last 10 years. Currently using with new receiver Denon 3500H, after Audy calibration etc, I playback with the Dolby Atmos Demo disc. In one of the demo, Horizon, there is a subwoofer bass issue which I do not know what is it. In the scene where the gush of water fell from the cliff before a rower appear, my sub would sound a small pop and silent for a quick second and then continue to put out the bass for the rest of the demo. In another demo, Amaze, at the scene when it say powerful bass, there is period of small static, clucky noise which follows when the word flash across the scene. My master volume on Denon was -15 during demo, subwoofer volume was 36, AVR trim level was -8. May I know what is this issue known as? Bottoming out or clipping or something else? I googled these 2 terms and it does not seem to be the same noise that I'm hearing from my own sub. Thanks.

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What does "subwoofer volume was 36" mean? 36 what?

You have an 8" driver with a 180 watt amp. If the bass is strong enough you may be overdriving the sub causing either or both the amp to clip and the cone to reach its excursion limits. The sounds you describe are in fact the sounds you could hear under those conditions.

You may want to consider replacing a small 10 year old sub with something new and bigger/more powerful.
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post #7254 of 7897 Old 12-07-2019, 06:36 PM
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Im using Marantz now, how big is the difference of using Audyssey vs hiring someone to do caloibration with pro equipment?

My setup is fairly basic 16x12 8ft ceiling. Nothing fancy but want to get the best out of my room
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post #7255 of 7897 Old 12-07-2019, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by ramon banaag View Post
Im using Marantz now, how big is the difference of using Audyssey vs hiring someone to do caloibration with pro equipment?

My setup is fairly basic 16x12 8ft ceiling. Nothing fancy but want to get the best out of my room
Run Audyssey first and see how you like it. What version do you have?

I wouldn't waste money on a "professional" unless you are building a dedicated home theater. Even then I would run Audyssey first.
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post #7256 of 7897 Old 12-07-2019, 06:48 PM
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Not even sure on the version, I use a Marantz SR6013 on an Armos setup

My first theater so currently on nirvana state, but sounds awesome so far

I guess I need to stop reading or geeking out on other setup online first and enjoy mines first
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post #7257 of 7897 Old 12-07-2019, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post
What does "subwoofer volume was 36" mean? 36 what?



You have an 8" driver with a 180 watt amp. If the bass is strong enough you may be overdriving the sub causing either or both the amp to clip and the cone to reach its excursion limits. The sounds you describe are in fact the sounds you could hear under those conditions.



You may want to consider replacing a small 10 year old sub with something new and bigger/more powerful.
The sub has a electronic volume control, max is 80, so 36 is slightly less than the 12 o'clock analogue dial. My previous AVR was a Onkyo Tx-SR507 for 8 years but I did not encounter the 2 issues until I got myself a 3500H and a Dolby demo, together with new Elac speakers to replace my Def tech 600. Same house n same spot for sub woofer. Is there any solution to mitigate this without buying a new sub? The 4k n Blu-ray movies disc I have, occasionally have the pop n silent treatment for some scenes, with the new setup. Thanks again.

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post #7258 of 7897 Old 12-07-2019, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haman View Post
The sub has a electronic volume control, max is 80, so 36 is slightly less than the 12 o'clock analogue dial. My previous AVR was a Onkyo Tx-SR507 for 8 years but I did not encounter the 2 issues until I got myself a 3500H and a Dolby demo, together with new Elac speakers to replace my Def tech 600. Same house n same spot for sub woofer. Is there any solution to mitigate this without buying a new sub? The 4k n Blu-ray movies disc I have, occasionally have the pop n silent treatment for some scenes, with the new setup. Thanks again.

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Your 507 had less power and less sophisticated Audyssey (2EQ) than the 3500. You are playing a demo disc that apparently has a lot of bass. I have no idea what volume level you played the 507 at but it would appear that your sub is not up to the job with your new system.
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post #7259 of 7897 Old 12-07-2019, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post
Your 507 had less power and less sophisticated Audyssey (2EQ) than the 3500. You are playing a demo disc that apparently has a lot of bass. I have no idea what volume level you played the 507 at but it would appear that your sub is not up to the job with your new system.
Thank you for your pointers. Appreciate it. I supposed a 12" with above 300W will be all right for my usage then.

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post #7260 of 7897 Old 12-07-2019, 10:29 PM
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Thank you for your pointers. Appreciate it. I supposed a 12" with above 300W will be all right for my usage then.

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You're welcome. Good luck.
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