"Official" Audyssey thread Part II - Page 243 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #7261 of 7751 Old 12-09-2019, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by ramon banaag View Post
Not even sure on the version, I use a Marantz SR6013 on an Armos setup

My first theater so currently on nirvana state, but sounds awesome so far

I guess I need to stop reading or geeking out on other setup online first and enjoy mines first
The 6013 has Audyssey XT32 which is the top tier for Audyssey room correction.

Pro calibrators can be expensive, and if you ever make a change to your system, they will need to return to re-calibrate (more $$$)...you would be better served by getting yourself a calibrated mic (UMIK-1), downloading REW and learning to tweak your system yourself.
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post #7262 of 7751 Old 12-09-2019, 11:19 AM
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Hello - My audyssey mic wire does not reach my receiver in the AV Rack. I will need to connect an extension. Can anyone link me to what kind of extension I could use?

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post #7263 of 7751 Old 12-09-2019, 12:14 PM
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Quick question. Yesterday I ran Audyssey through my x3400 and it set my front speakers to about 0db and the surrounds to +6db. Is this an issue? Ascend Sierra towers and horizon in front and sierra 2ex in the back.

Most of the pats i have read through the avr set peoples levels in the negative db range.
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post #7264 of 7751 Old 12-09-2019, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by UofA fan View Post
Quick question. Yesterday I ran Audyssey through my x3400 and it set my front speakers to about 0db and the surrounds to +6db. Is this an issue? Ascend Sierra towers and horizon in front and sierra 2ex in the back.

Most of the pats i have read through the avr set peoples levels in the negative db range.
No issue at all. The trim levels are determined from a combination of the speaker's distance to the MLP and their sensitivity.
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post #7265 of 7751 Old 12-09-2019, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
No issue at all. The trim levels are determined from a combination of the speaker's distance to the MLP and their sensitivity.
Thanks Alan!

Wow I need to proofread before I hit post. My phones autocorrect butchered that last post.
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post #7266 of 7751 Old 12-09-2019, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by m0j0 View Post
I have found that I need to break out my SPL meter and get all the speakers at the same level from the MLP as well after running Audyssey, as the Audyssey results are not really good/accurate as far as I can tell (I have a Denon x4400h with Audyssey XT32). In addition, I bump up my Atmos speakers another 3.5db to get a more robust experience since Atmos soundtracks are known for being a little on the weak side more often than not.
When you’re increasing the atmos speakers, are you increasing them in the audyssey menu or adjusting them for every source?
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post #7267 of 7751 Old 12-10-2019, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by bobby james View Post
When you’re increasing the atmos speakers, are you increasing them in the audyssey menu or adjusting them for every source?

I'm going into the menu where test tones are played and adding 3.5db's of positive trim for each atmos speaker, so that if the front left height speaker was set to +1.0 by Audyssey, I set it to +4.5, as an example.
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post #7268 of 7751 Old 12-10-2019, 12:07 PM
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Random Question: When running Audyssey, 3 of my positions are on my couch - center, left right etc. Should the Mic be on a stand, floating above with a boom extender or is putting the MIC directly on the couch cushion/on a book advised?

Thanks!
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post #7269 of 7751 Old 12-10-2019, 12:16 PM
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"Official" Audyssey thread Part II

Quote:
Originally Posted by guacamoleparty View Post
Random Question: When running Audyssey, 3 of my positions are on my couch - center, left right etc. Should the Mic be on a stand, floating above with a boom extender or is putting the MIC directly on the couch cushion/on a book advised?



Thanks!

This (stand with boom)

If center, left and right is seat cushions you may be measuring too far apart. I think there are some links at start of thread with a detailed how to measure right and the right/max distance between measuring points. (I dont remember right now but its far less than generally indicated in many diagrams)

Edit: looks like the guide at beginning of this thread favor both up to 3 feet and close range depending on what gives the best result in each case between measuring points.

Last edited by Leeliemix; 12-10-2019 at 12:22 PM.
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post #7270 of 7751 Old 12-11-2019, 07:59 AM
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Lost my Audyssey mic...replacement?

Hi all. As the title says, I have lost my Audyssey microphone for my Denon x4100w. I am reading conflicting information online, some saying I have to replace it with one specifically for my receiver, some saying any will work after a certain date, some saying certain models....it's a crap shoot.

What do I actually need to look for? And I guess there is no substitution? I have tons of other mics but I assume this software is looking for something particular.

Thanks!
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post #7271 of 7751 Old 12-11-2019, 11:01 AM
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Thank you for your pointers. Appreciate it. I supposed a 12" with above 300W will be all right for my usage then.

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Hi, is SVS PB-1000 an appropriate upgrade to my Velodyne CHT-8Q? If not, can you let me know within this price range of $500? Thanks.

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post #7272 of 7751 Old 12-11-2019, 12:45 PM
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Hi, is SVS PB-1000 an appropriate upgrade to my Velodyne CHT-8Q? If not, can you let me know within this price range of $500? Thanks.

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post #7273 of 7751 Old 12-11-2019, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by savage8190 View Post
Hi all. As the title says, I have lost my Audyssey microphone for my Denon x4100w. I am reading conflicting information online, some saying I have to replace it with one specifically for my receiver, some saying any will work after a certain date, some saying certain models....it's a crap shoot.

What do I actually need to look for? And I guess there is no substitution? I have tons of other mics but I assume this software is looking for something particular.

Thanks!
Substitutions are extremely iffy. The software and electronics in your Denon are trimmed/set for that particular model of mic. Try contacting Denon directly.

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post #7274 of 7751 Old 12-12-2019, 07:00 PM
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What are folks thoughts and experiences with using SubEQ HT with 4 subs, say 2 subs in the front of the room on sub out 1, and 2 subs roughly mid-wall in line with the MLP on the sub 2 out?

My current setup is a Marantz 7704 with sub 1 (Outlaw X-12) and sub 2 (Outlaw LFM-1) both in the front of the room. The X-12 is about 12.5 ft from the MLP and the LFM-1 about 11.5 feet.

I am considering adding 2 more X-12's (on sale for $499). The 2 new subs would be roughly mid-wall in the room in line with the MLP couch. One would be about 7.5 feet from the MLP, and the other about 6.5 feet.

I know I would lose per-sub level and distance control, as the front subs would be grouped and the mid-wall subs would be grouped. However, I'm thinking that the increased headroom (lowered demand on each sub) and natural smoothing from adding 2 more subs could net some potential performance gains in bass frequency response smoothness and headroom/distortion.

Anyone doing this or have general thoughts/input?

Thanks.


-

5.1 and 2.0 ch: Marantz AV7704/Emotiva DC-1/Rotel RB-1582 MKII/Audiosource Amp Three x 2/Polk LS90, CS400i, FX500i/Outlaw X-12, LFM-1/JVD DLA-HD250/Da-Lite 100" HCCV/Sony ES BDP/Sonos Connect. DC-1/RB-1582 MKII/Sonos Connect also feed Polk 7C in garage and Dayton IO655 on patio. 2.1 ch: Denon AVR-2807/Klipsch Forte I or NHT SB2/JBL SUB 550P x 2. 2.0 ch: Outlaw 975/Outlaw M2200 x 2/Klipsch RF-7 III/Sony ES BDP/LG 65" LED. 2.0 ch: Klipsch Powergate/NHT SB3. Kitchen: Sonos Play5.
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post #7275 of 7751 Old 12-12-2019, 07:33 PM
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I use four subs...two in front and two in back of room. It is best to match the subs. Two rears same model, two fronts same model.

Home Theater System Denon X8500H, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2, Polk CSi A6 Center, Polk RTi A9 Front, Polk RTi A7 Front Wide, Polk RTi A1 Front Height, Polk FXi A6 Side, Polk RTi A3 Rear, Polk RTi A1 Rear Heights, Polk 70RT Middle In-Ceiling, SVS PB12-NSD x2 Front, SVS PC12-NSD x2 Rear, JVC DLA-RS1000, Visual Apex CineWhite 100" Screen, Panasonic UB9000, Dish Hopper 3
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post #7276 of 7751 Old 12-13-2019, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by adam2434 View Post
What are folks thoughts and experiences with using SubEQ HT with 4 subs, say 2 subs in the front of the room on sub out 1, and 2 subs roughly mid-wall in line with the MLP on the sub 2 out?

My current setup is a Marantz 7704 with sub 1 (Outlaw X-12) and sub 2 (Outlaw LFM-1) both in the front of the room. The X-12 is about 12.5 ft from the MLP and the LFM-1 about 11.5 feet.

I am considering adding 2 more X-12's (on sale for $499). The 2 new subs would be roughly mid-wall in the room in line with the MLP couch. One would be about 7.5 feet from the MLP, and the other about 6.5 feet.

I know I would lose per-sub level and distance control, as the front subs would be grouped and the mid-wall subs would be grouped. However, I'm thinking that the increased headroom (lowered demand on each sub) and natural smoothing from adding 2 more subs could net some potential performance gains in bass frequency response smoothness and headroom/distortion.

Anyone doing this or have general thoughts/input?

Thanks.


-
The X-12 and LFM-1 seem to be very similar in specs, so you should be fine using them together. Since the front and rear pairs of subs only have a 1' discrepancy in distance to the MLP , I would say you should be fine using sub out 1 for the front and sub out 2 for the rear. I would also gain match all subs (NOT level match).

However, IMO once you get up to four subs, REW+UMIK+MiniDSP is pretty much required equipment.

Check these videos for the proper way to integrate 4 subs:


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post #7277 of 7751 Old 12-13-2019, 09:31 AM
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Phillihp23 and Alan P, thanks for your input.

Alan P, yes I also was thinking that the X-12 in max output (2 ports open) should be similar in output/response to the LFM-1 (similar/same tuning freq, driver, amp, cabinet).

Regarding your comment "However, IMO once you get up to four subs, REW+UMIK+MiniDSP is pretty much required equipment", does this mean my specific scenario above only using SubEQ HT could really complicate and mess up the bass response with 4 subs vs. my current set-up with 2 subs in the front of he room? I would only go this route if I felt confident that adding the 2 mid-wall subs and running 4 subs total with SubEQ HT would be an improvement (prior to getting into REW+UMIK+MiniDSP).

I will watch the video on gain matching later - thanks.


-

5.1 and 2.0 ch: Marantz AV7704/Emotiva DC-1/Rotel RB-1582 MKII/Audiosource Amp Three x 2/Polk LS90, CS400i, FX500i/Outlaw X-12, LFM-1/JVD DLA-HD250/Da-Lite 100" HCCV/Sony ES BDP/Sonos Connect. DC-1/RB-1582 MKII/Sonos Connect also feed Polk 7C in garage and Dayton IO655 on patio. 2.1 ch: Denon AVR-2807/Klipsch Forte I or NHT SB2/JBL SUB 550P x 2. 2.0 ch: Outlaw 975/Outlaw M2200 x 2/Klipsch RF-7 III/Sony ES BDP/LG 65" LED. 2.0 ch: Klipsch Powergate/NHT SB3. Kitchen: Sonos Play5.
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post #7278 of 7751 Old 12-13-2019, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adam2434 View Post
Phillihp23 and Alan P, thanks for your input.

Alan P, yes I also was thinking that the X-12 in max output (2 ports open) should be similar in output/response to the LFM-1 (similar/same tuning freq, driver, amp, cabinet).

Regarding your comment "However, IMO once you get up to four subs, REW+UMIK+MiniDSP is pretty much required equipment", does this mean my specific scenario above only using SubEQ HT could really complicate and mess up the bass response with 4 subs vs. my current set-up with 2 subs in the front of he room? I would only go this route if I felt confident that adding the 2 mid-wall subs and running 4 subs total with SubEQ HT would be an improvement (prior to getting into REW+UMIK+MiniDSP).

I will watch the video on gain matching later - thanks.


-
Depending on how your proposed locations work together, it will most likely be an improvement. I'm just saying that integrating 4 subs can be done better with outboard DSP and the ability to measure your response.

You may want to fool around with the REW Room Simulator to see how your proposed sub locations will work out. If your room is a sealed rectangle, the room sim is pretty accurate...if the room is irregular or open to other spaces, not so much.
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post #7279 of 7751 Old 12-13-2019, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adam2434 View Post
Phillihp23 and Alan P, thanks for your input.

Alan P, yes I also was thinking that the X-12 in max output (2 ports open) should be similar in output/response to the LFM-1 (similar/same tuning freq, driver, amp, cabinet).

Regarding your comment "However, IMO once you get up to four subs, REW+UMIK+MiniDSP is pretty much required equipment", does this mean my specific scenario above only using SubEQ HT could really complicate and mess up the bass response with 4 subs vs. my current set-up with 2 subs in the front of he room? I would only go this route if I felt confident that adding the 2 mid-wall subs and running 4 subs total with SubEQ HT would be an improvement (prior to getting into REW+UMIK+MiniDSP).

I will watch the video on gain matching later - thanks.


-

Hi adam2434, I think Alan is giving you continuous excellent advice on integrating 4 subs in your room, yet, as and option - not meant to discourage you by any means - you may consider a "Plan B" which may be based on the saying: sometimes less is more!

What I mean is to think of limiting subs to two only. You have two different but similar brands, choose the pair you like better and try to integrated only these two subs into your system.

Please remember my word, this is not against 4 subs, just a tip to be on the safe side where you can have multiple choices.

Good luck with your project!
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post #7280 of 7751 Old 12-13-2019, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Depending on how your proposed locations work together, it will most likely be an improvement. I'm just saying that integrating 4 subs can be done better with outboard DSP and the ability to measure your response.

You may want to fool around with the REW Room Simulator to see how your proposed sub locations will work out. If your room is a sealed rectangle, the room sim is pretty accurate...if the room is irregular or open to other spaces, not so much.
OK, understand.

Regarding the REW Room Simulator, the room is in the basement, so I had to frame around a lot of utilities, HVAC, beams, etc. So, the room has several deviations from a pure rectangle (sections of ceiling that are lower, sections of walls that bump out, etc.) and it opens to stairs to the main floor, so I would imagine that it deviates too much from a pure rectangle. Thanks for the suggestion though.

-

5.1 and 2.0 ch: Marantz AV7704/Emotiva DC-1/Rotel RB-1582 MKII/Audiosource Amp Three x 2/Polk LS90, CS400i, FX500i/Outlaw X-12, LFM-1/JVD DLA-HD250/Da-Lite 100" HCCV/Sony ES BDP/Sonos Connect. DC-1/RB-1582 MKII/Sonos Connect also feed Polk 7C in garage and Dayton IO655 on patio. 2.1 ch: Denon AVR-2807/Klipsch Forte I or NHT SB2/JBL SUB 550P x 2. 2.0 ch: Outlaw 975/Outlaw M2200 x 2/Klipsch RF-7 III/Sony ES BDP/LG 65" LED. 2.0 ch: Klipsch Powergate/NHT SB3. Kitchen: Sonos Play5.

Last edited by adam2434; 12-13-2019 at 06:57 PM.
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post #7281 of 7751 Old 12-13-2019, 08:47 PM
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Alan P, I watched the gain matching video. Gain matching would only be relevant with non-identical subs, right? With identical subs, gain matching would be achieved by simply setting each sub's volume control to the same level (unless there was the possibility of significant variation between units of the same model), right?

Also, if the subs were different models (like my current Outlaw X-12 and LFM-1), seems like doing the gain matching at an arbitrary position on each sub's volume control at an arbitrary position in the room could be a problem when the subs are later moved into their actual positions and XT32/SubEQ HT is run. XT32/SubEQ HT could require each sub's volume level to be adjusted to get into the target range, defeating the gain matching that was just performed. Also, depending on where each sub is positioned, one sub could require more adjustment than the other to get into the target range (like if one is in a corner and one is not).

Guess I'm not fully grasping how gain matching works when the subs will subsequently be moved and then will need to be calibrated with XT32/SubEQ HT, potentially requiring adjustment of each sub's volume control.

Unrelated (or maybe related to the above and gain matching), I'm perplexed by the following with the current Outlaw X-12 and LFM-1 set-up. XT32/SubEQ HT set each sub level to within 1 dB of each other. The X-12's on-board volume is pretty low - there are no numbers, but let's call it somewhere between 20-30% of the knob range. The LFM-1's volume knob is at 6 of 10. The X-12 is on the front wall to the left of the left speaker, not near a corner. The LFM-1 is in a quasi-corner (the corner is a boxed out framing area that bumps out about 2 feet into the room) to the right of the right speaker . The perplexing thing is that the X-12 seems to be working a lot harder than the LFM-1 based on woofer excursion and cabinet vibration when I touch them when music is playing at moderate to high levels. Net, with a very low volume knob setting on the X-12, it seems to be working a lot harder than the LFM-1 at a much higher volume knob setting. This has bothered me since I added the X-12 as a second sub in the system. Any thoughts on why I'm observing this?


-

5.1 and 2.0 ch: Marantz AV7704/Emotiva DC-1/Rotel RB-1582 MKII/Audiosource Amp Three x 2/Polk LS90, CS400i, FX500i/Outlaw X-12, LFM-1/JVD DLA-HD250/Da-Lite 100" HCCV/Sony ES BDP/Sonos Connect. DC-1/RB-1582 MKII/Sonos Connect also feed Polk 7C in garage and Dayton IO655 on patio. 2.1 ch: Denon AVR-2807/Klipsch Forte I or NHT SB2/JBL SUB 550P x 2. 2.0 ch: Outlaw 975/Outlaw M2200 x 2/Klipsch RF-7 III/Sony ES BDP/LG 65" LED. 2.0 ch: Klipsch Powergate/NHT SB3. Kitchen: Sonos Play5.

Last edited by adam2434; 12-13-2019 at 09:27 PM.
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post #7282 of 7751 Old 12-16-2019, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adam2434 View Post
Alan P, I watched the gain matching video. Gain matching would only be relevant with non-identical subs, right? With identical subs, gain matching would be achieved by simply setting each sub's volume control to the same level (unless there was the possibility of significant variation between units of the same model), right?
Mostly yes, but if the subs have an analog dial for gain and not some sort of digital control, I would still verify that they are gain matched since a small amount of deviation on an analog dial can result in a few dB of variation.


Quote:
Also, if the subs were different models (like my current Outlaw X-12 and LFM-1), seems like doing the gain matching at an arbitrary position on each sub's volume control at an arbitrary position in the room could be a problem when the subs are later moved into their actual positions and XT32/SubEQ HT is run. XT32/SubEQ HT could require each sub's volume level to be adjusted to get into the target range, defeating the gain matching that was just performed. Also, depending on where each sub is positioned, one sub could require more adjustment than the other to get into the target range (like if one is in a corner and one is not).

Guess I'm not fully grasping how gain matching works when the subs will subsequently be moved and then will need to be calibrated with XT32/SubEQ HT, potentially requiring adjustment of each sub's volume control.
In order to keep the subs gain matched, you would just "skip" the Audyssey level matching screen. I believe that was covered in the Home Theater Gurus video, was it not?


Quote:
Unrelated (or maybe related to the above and gain matching), I'm perplexed by the following with the current Outlaw X-12 and LFM-1 set-up. XT32/SubEQ HT set each sub level to within 1 dB of each other. The X-12's on-board volume is pretty low - there are no numbers, but let's call it somewhere between 20-30% of the knob range. The LFM-1's volume knob is at 6 of 10. The X-12 is on the front wall to the left of the left speaker, not near a corner. The LFM-1 is in a quasi-corner (the corner is a boxed out framing area that bumps out about 2 feet into the room) to the right of the right speaker . The perplexing thing is that the X-12 seems to be working a lot harder than the LFM-1 based on woofer excursion and cabinet vibration when I touch them when music is playing at moderate to high levels. Net, with a very low volume knob setting on the X-12, it seems to be working a lot harder than the LFM-1 at a much higher volume knob setting. This has bothered me since I added the X-12 as a second sub in the system. Any thoughts on why I'm observing this?
Since gain structure/drivers/amps can vary between different subs in a manufacturers line, and as I alluded to above even between subs of the same model, this does not surprise me all that much. Let's see what the results are after you truly gain match the subs.
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post #7283 of 7751 Old 12-16-2019, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
In order to keep the subs gain matched, you would just "skip" the Audyssey level matching screen. I believe that was covered in the Home Theater Gurus video, was it not?
I don’t recall this being covered in the video, but I might have missed it or maybe did not watch the video to the end. I appreciate your replies and patience.

I use the MultEQ Editor App for Audyssey. It has been many months since I have used it, so I don’t recall if the level calibration can be skipped, and whether levels and distances are done in the same step.

So, in keeping the subs gain matched, I guess one would have to do manual level matching for all channels with a SPL meter, once the subs are placed in their true positions. I also guess one would have to get lucky or do iterative gain matching on the subs to get their gain position to a level that puts them in a good AVR/AVP trim range once they are placed in their true positions. For example, say you place the subs into their true positions, calibrate all channels to 75 dB and find that you run out of AVR/AVP sub trim before hitting 75 dB. I guess in this case, one would need to pull the subs back out of their positions and re-do gain matching a different gain level on the subs, then put the subs back into their true positions and try calibrating all channels again. I know folks like to keep their AVR/AVP trim levels well into the negative range, so getting the gain matching level to a point that enables this could be iterative, requiring one to move the subs in and out of the gain matching position of the room. Sound right, or am I missing something?

Another thing I’m not clear on – say one gain matches 4 identical subs and then puts two subs in the front of the room using sub 1 out and two subs nearfield using sub out 2 (assume XT32/SubEQ HT). Would XT32/SubEQ HT typically calibrate the nearfield subs to a lower trim level because they are closer? If so, I guess there would be no way to make all 4 subs equal contributors from an output standpoint.


-

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post #7284 of 7751 Old 12-16-2019, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adam2434 View Post
I don’t recall this being covered in the video, but I might have missed it or maybe did not watch the video to the end. I appreciate your replies and patience.

I use the MultEQ Editor App for Audyssey. It has been many months since I have used it, so I don’t recall if the level calibration can be skipped, and whether levels and distances are done in the same step.
I just skimmed through the video since I watched it some time ago and that particular info is not in it, sorry.


Quote:
So, in keeping the subs gain matched, I guess one would have to do manual level matching for all channels with a SPL meter, once the subs are placed in their true positions.
No, you can still let Audyssey set the speaker trim levels for you.


Quote:
I also guess one would have to get lucky or do iterative gain matching on the subs to get their gain position to a level that puts them in a good AVR/AVP trim range once they are placed in their true positions. For example, say you place the subs into their true positions, calibrate all channels to 75 dB and find that you run out of AVR/AVP sub trim before hitting 75 dB. I guess in this case, one would need to pull the subs back out of their positions and re-do gain matching a different gain level on the subs, then put the subs back into their true positions and try calibrating all channels again. I know folks like to keep their AVR/AVP trim levels well into the negative range, so getting the gain matching level to a point that enables this could be iterative, requiring one to move the subs in and out of the gain matching position of the room. Sound right, or am I missing something?
That is correct, it can be an iterative process, but you can get close using math (+6dB for every doubling of subs, +3dB for each boundary, -6dB for every doubling of distance). However, you do NOT have to move the subs back out into the room to make the adjustments...you can just take a close-mic measurement and you will remain very close to gain matched (depending a bit on how the individual subs will be placed). Place the SPL meter on the floor directly in front of the sub (<1") and adjust the gain knob until you have added/subtracted the desired dB, then repeat this process with the other subs adjusting them by the exact same amount.

Full disclosure; this is how I "gain match" my subs, with them in their final positions and with close-mic measurements. You do get some influence from the room with this method, but since all four of my subs are corner loaded, I figure that influence is minimal.


Quote:
Another thing I’m not clear on – say one gain matches 4 identical subs and then puts two subs in the front of the room using sub 1 out and two subs nearfield using sub out 2 (assume XT32/SubEQ HT). Would XT32/SubEQ HT typically calibrate the nearfield subs to a lower trim level because they are closer? If so, I guess there would be no way to make all 4 subs equal contributors from an output standpoint.
Yes, SubEQ HT will indeed provide a much lower trim for the nearfield subs. You would set both subwoofer trims to the same value and you are back to being gain matched. After that, you would adjust both sub trims up/down equally to get to your preferred level.
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post #7285 of 7751 Old 12-16-2019, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adam2434 View Post
I don’t recall this being covered in the video, but I might have missed it or maybe did not watch the video to the end. I appreciate your replies and patience.

I use the MultEQ Editor App for Audyssey. It has been many months since I have used it, so I don’t recall if the level calibration can be skipped, and whether levels and distances are done in the same step.

So, in keeping the subs gain matched, I guess one would have to do manual level matching for all channels with a SPL meter, once the subs are placed in their true positions. I also guess one would have to get lucky or do iterative gain matching on the subs to get their gain position to a level that puts them in a good AVR/AVP trim range once they are placed in their true positions. For example, say you place the subs into their true positions, calibrate all channels to 75 dB and find that you run out of AVR/AVP sub trim before hitting 75 dB. I guess in this case, one would need to pull the subs back out of their positions and re-do gain matching a different gain level on the subs, then put the subs back into their true positions and try calibrating all channels again. I know folks like to keep their AVR/AVP trim levels well into the negative range, so getting the gain matching level to a point that enables this could be iterative, requiring one to move the subs in and out of the gain matching position of the room. Sound right, or am I missing something?

Another thing I’m not clear on – say one gain matches 4 identical subs and then puts two subs in the front of the room using sub 1 out and two subs nearfield using sub out 2 (assume XT32/SubEQ HT). Would XT32/SubEQ HT typically calibrate the nearfield subs to a lower trim level because they are closer? If so, I guess there would be no way to make all 4 subs equal contributors from an output standpoint.

Hi,

You are already getting excellent advice from Alan, and I don't really have anything to add to that advice. The only thing I might add is that with sufficient subwoofage to start with, concerns about gain-matching the subs diminishes in importance. Room positioning and room modes will ultimately dictate whether some subs will have to work slightly harder than others. But, with four subs, none of them should be having to work hard enough for those small differences in effort to matter.

In other words, not only is there no way to guarantee that all four subs are exactly equal contributors, there is also no reason to be particularly concerned about that fact. I say that while understanding that we can all be a little bit OCD at times. But, we are really never dealing with a perfect world. And, exactly equal contributions just won't matter in the greater scheme of things.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #7286 of 7751 Old 12-16-2019, 06:29 PM
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Alan P and mthomas47, thanks for the input. I appreciate it!

Here are my thoughts on next steps.

1) Do a gain matching sanity check with current 2 subs using my RS SPL meter within 1” of subs. I will try pink noise and a couple specific frequencies, like maybe 50 and 70 Hz, with both sub trims set to the same level and Audyssey off. I’ll do this in the front and back of the subs. If the X-12 is outputting a significantly higher SPL, this might confirm my observation of its working much harder than the LFM-1, suggesting that it is at a higher gain although its gain knob is set very low vs. the LFM-1. On both subs, the driver and ports are downfiring, BTW.

2) If I buy the 2 additional Outlaw X-12 subs (sale ends today, I believe, so I will decide in the next couple hours ), I believe I will need to reduce gain on both of the current subs because they are currently calibrated to -7.5 and -8.0 dB with the Editor app, and adding 2 more subs will probably take me out of the trim range.

3) I will do a gain match check on the 2 new subs to hopefully verify that each tracks SPL with gain setting the same way. I will set the gain to the same setting used on the current X-12.

4) If the Editor app sets the 2 new midwall subs to a lower trim than the front subs, I can just leave it that way (knowing that the midwall subs are being taxed less), or I can adjust the midwall sub trim to match the front sub trim, knowing that I have just boosted the overall sub level some amount. Some iterations could be required to get all 4 sub gains matched to a level that allows adequate trim range for the front and midwall sub groups. BTW, with the current front subs, I typically boost both sub trims 4-7 dB, depending on content.

Seem like a decent path forward?

Hopefully, SubEQ HT will do a decent job of aligning the timing of the front group and midwall group together, since each sub in a group will be within a foot of each other vs. the MLP (the Editor app set the current front subs to 13.3 and 14.1 feet, BTW). I realize that I will have no way of knowing precisely without REW, miniDSP, etc.
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Last edited by adam2434; 12-16-2019 at 07:03 PM.
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post #7287 of 7751 Old 12-16-2019, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
-6dB for every doubling of distance
Hi Alan,


As usual, I could be wrong, but ... the smallest note: You do lose 6 dB with each doubling of distance outdoors, where there are no walls and no ceiling to provide either room gain or boundary gain. Indoors, it gets more complicated and controversial, with good reason. As usual in audio, "it all depends." According to several sources, it is likely that you will lose an average of about 3 dB for each doubling of distance indoors, more or less, subject to fudge factor. In the 1970s, Paul Klipsch demonstrated an average of about 8 or 9 dB loss by moving the microphone about 3 doublings of distance away. In other words about 3 dB per doubling.*


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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
But, we are really never dealing with a perfect world.
We're not? That's it, I quit!

* That's about what I get in my room. The purpose of Klipsch's article was different, but he demonstrated the "~~~ -3 db indoors 'rule' " along the way. It was in "The Great Major Breakthrough No. 29" or "Reverberant Field Loudspeakers" by Klipsch, a probable reaction to JBL's reintroduction of 360 degree speakers with the Aquarius line in 1970, or the intro of the Bose 901 in 1968. He used a Klipschorn (in a corner, of course, just where many folk put their subs), in an approximately 3500 cu.ft. room.
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post #7288 of 7751 Old 12-17-2019, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adam2434 View Post
Alan P and mthomas47, thanks for the input. I appreciate it!

Here are my thoughts on next steps.

1) Do a gain matching sanity check with current 2 subs using my RS SPL meter within 1” of subs. I will try pink noise and a couple specific frequencies, like maybe 50 and 70 Hz, with both sub trims set to the same level and Audyssey off. I’ll do this in the front and back of the subs. If the X-12 is outputting a significantly higher SPL, this might confirm my observation of its working much harder than the LFM-1, suggesting that it is at a higher gain although its gain knob is set very low vs. the LFM-1. On both subs, the driver and ports are downfiring, BTW.
I would only use pink noise, not specific frequencies. No need to measure in front and in back of the subs.


Quote:
2) If I buy the 2 additional Outlaw X-12 subs (sale ends today, I believe, so I will decide in the next couple hours ), I believe I will need to reduce gain on both of the current subs because they are currently calibrated to -7.5 and -8.0 dB with the Editor app, and adding 2 more subs will probably take me out of the trim range.
Correct. You will have to reduce the gain on the current subs ~6dB since you are doubling the number of subs.


Quote:
3) I will do a gain match check on the 2 new subs to hopefully verify that each tracks SPL with gain setting the same way. I will set the gain to the same setting used on the current X-12.
Should get you very close to gain matched on those three subs, but I would still verify with the SPL meter.


Quote:
4) If the Editor app sets the 2 new midwall subs to a lower trim than the front subs, I can just leave it that way (knowing that the midwall subs are being taxed less), or I can adjust the midwall sub trim to match the front sub trim, knowing that I have just boosted the overall sub level some amount. Some iterations could be required to get all 4 sub gains matched to a level that allows adequate trim range for the front and midwall sub groups. BTW, with the current front subs, I typically boost both sub trims 4-7 dB, depending on content.
The point of gain matching is to have all subs providing the same amount of energy to the room. If you leave the midwall subs at a lower level, it will only drag down the entire system's headroom.


Quote:
Hopefully, SubEQ HT will do a decent job of aligning the timing of the front group and midwall group together, since each sub in a group will be within a foot of each other vs. the MLP (the Editor app set the current front subs to 13.3 and 14.1 feet, BTW). I realize that I will have no way of knowing precisely without REW, miniDSP, etc.
Just an FYI; some pro calibrators will completely bypass SubEQ HT and connect all subs to a single sub out and report good results. Something to experiment with if you are so inclined. There are also some who believe that once you get to the point of 4 or more subs, time alignment is not as critical, and can even be detrimental to the frequency response...so there's that too.
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post #7289 of 7751 Old 12-17-2019, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
Hi Alan,


As usual, I could be wrong, but ... the smallest note: You do lose 6 dB with each doubling of distance outdoors, where there are no walls and no ceiling to provide either room gain or boundary gain. Indoors, it gets more complicated and controversial, with good reason. As usual in audio, "it all depends." According to several sources, it is likely that you will lose an average of about 3 dB for each doubling of distance indoors, more or less, subject to fudge factor. In the 1970s, Paul Klipsch demonstrated an average of about 8 or 9 dB loss by moving the microphone about 3 doublings of distance away. In other words about 3 dB per doubling.*




We're not? That's it, I quit!

* That's about what I get in my room. The purpose of Klipsch's article was different, but he demonstrated the "~~~ -3 db indoors 'rule' " along the way. It was in "The Great Major Breakthrough No. 29" or "Reverberant Field Loudspeakers" by Klipsch, a probable reaction to JBL's reintroduction of 360 degree speakers with the Aquarius line in 1970, or the intro of the Bose 901 in 1968. He used a Klipschorn (in a corner, of course, just where many folk put their subs), in an approximately 3500 cu.ft. room.
To be completely honest Gary, I couldn't remember if it was 3dB or 6dB so I Googled it real quick, saw the -6dB in one of the first hits, and went with it.

Thanks for the correction!
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post #7290 of 7751 Old 12-17-2019, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
The point of gain matching is to have all subs providing the same amount of energy to the room. If you leave the midwall subs at a lower level, it will only drag down the entire system's headroom.

Just an FYI; some pro calibrators will completely bypass SubEQ HT and connect all subs to a single sub out and report good results. Something to experiment with if you are so inclined. There are also some who believe that once you get to the point of 4 or more subs, time alignment is not as critical, and can even be detrimental to the frequency response...so there's that too.
So, if Audyssey calibrates the midwall subs to a lower trim than the front subs (and all were gain matched prior), increasing the midwall trim level to the front trim level will simply result in running the combined sub level hot vs. the Audyssey calibrated level. That's fine for me because I run my current subs 4-7 dB hot, and I might still boost both sub groups a bit more after adjusting the midwall trim. However, some may not like the idea of automatically boosting the bass above the Audyssey calibrated level just to have all subs outputting the same level.

Also, if one boosts the nearer sub group trim (midwall in my case) to match the front wall trim, could the midwall subs perhaps sound louder, possibly draw attention to themselves, and sound distracting with music.

I realize that I will have to experiment to get it to sound right with music.

Your statement about bypassing SubEQ HT and not time aligning because it can be detrimental threw me for a bit of a loop . I watched some of the video you linked on time aligning with REW and miniDSP. IIRC, that video showed some destructive effects when adding subs without time alignment. He had to adjust delay and phase to avoid destructive effects and to maximize output.

-

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