"Official" Audyssey thread Part II - Page 245 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #7321 of 8550 Old 12-22-2019, 01:29 PM
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Audyssey only showing one sub-out being used however, I am actually using both Denon 3600H

I tried microprocessor reset but still only shows one. Any solutions/ideas?
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post #7322 of 8550 Old 12-22-2019, 02:50 PM
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The site tells me there are unread (for me) posts here which were made today but I don't see any posts after yesterday at 11:58AM
[Edit] Okay, so I posted successfully and now I can see the earlier post...

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Quote:
Originally Posted by platoon2063 View Post
Audyssey only showing one sub-out being used however, I am actually using both Denon 3600H

I tried microprocessor reset but still only shows one. Any solutions/ideas?
There is a Channel Select Option at the start of Audyssey calibration to set the number of subwoofers in use. Suggest you download the PDF owner's manual if you haven't already.
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post #7324 of 8550 Old 12-26-2019, 10:10 AM
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Audyssey settings question

I'm using the Audyssey calibration tool with my new Denon Receiver and noticed that after the program completed the bass completely disappeared. When I checked the levels the subwoofer was set to -12 dB. I also didn't understand what the dynamic EQ does so I enabled it. I was just wondering if anyone else has run into this problem and if so what worked best in your system?
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post #7325 of 8550 Old 12-26-2019, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by morasp View Post
I'm using the Audyssey calibration tool with my new Denon Receiver and noticed that after the program completed the bass completely disappeared. When I checked the levels the subwoofer was set to -12 dB. I also didn't understand what the dynamic EQ does so I enabled it. I was just wondering if anyone else has run into this problem and if so what worked best in your system?
I just set up my new JBL 590's and experienced the same issue. I turned the subs off initially with just the JBL's for music which I thought I might prefer and they sounded good. I then decided to run Audyssey with the subs in to see the difference and ended up with the no bass issue. After I ran Audyssey it set my mains to large, set the crossover to 90, the subs to -9db, the bass set to LFE, and the bass disappeared. While playing music the subs could not be heard at all and the 590's had little to no bass output. If I change the setting to LFE + main the bass returns. I will keep playing with the settings to see what sounds best but it is confusing for a novice.
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post #7326 of 8550 Old 12-26-2019, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by morasp View Post
I'm using the Audyssey calibration tool with my new Denon Receiver and noticed that after the program completed the bass completely disappeared. When I checked the levels the subwoofer was set to -12 dB. I also didn't understand what the dynamic EQ does so I enabled it. I was just wondering if anyone else has run into this problem and if so what worked best in your system?
I've run into this. I reran Audyssey and sometimes it will register and sometimes not. if it still doesn't pick up the sub, I would increase the volume on the sub a little.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
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post #7327 of 8550 Old 12-26-2019, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by morasp View Post
I'm using the Audyssey calibration tool with my new Denon Receiver and noticed that after the program completed the bass completely disappeared. When I checked the levels the subwoofer was set to -12 dB. I also didn't understand what the dynamic EQ does so I enabled it. I was just wondering if anyone else has run into this problem and if so what worked best in your system?

-12 is the lowest number Audyssey will report, it could be even lower. It couldn't set the AVR to a low enough number. turn down the sub volume a bit and run again. It may take several attempts. I believe -10 to -11.5 is a good number. That give room to adjust the bass upwards afterwards.


[Edit] You might want to study a bit... Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences

Last edited by Matt2026; 12-26-2019 at 12:49 PM.
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post #7328 of 8550 Old 12-26-2019, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt2026 View Post
-12 is the lowest number Audyssey will report, it could be even lower. It couldn't set the AVR to a low enough number. turn down the sub volume a bit and run again. It may take several attempts. I believe -10 to -11.5 is a good number. That give room to adjust the bass upwards afterwards.


[Edit] You might want to study a bit... Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
What confuses me is that the bass completely disappears after running audyssey.

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post #7329 of 8550 Old 12-26-2019, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by morasp View Post
... after the program completed the bass completely disappeared ... I was just wondering if anyone else has run into this problem and if so what worked best in your system?
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Originally Posted by mdildine View Post
I just set up my new JBL 590's and experienced the same issue ... After I ran Audyssey it set my mains to large, set the crossover to 90, the subs to -9db, the bass set to LFE, and the bass disappeared. While playing music the subs could not be heard at all and the 590's had little to no bass output. If I change the setting to LFE + main the bass returns.
Although it seems like Audyssey set your mains to large, it really wasn't Audyssey that set your mains to large -- it was your AVR or AVP that did that. The Audyssey engineers hate large -- you should hear their CTO and co-inventor rail against the practice of AVRs switching to large when the main speakers have pretty good bass! One reason, as you found out, is the "Large" setting means "although true Low Frequency Effects (generally on movies only) can be sent to the subwoofer, bass content of music (a la "bass management") will not be (when allowed, they both cone out of the output marked "sub" on the AVR).. In other words, the large setting is commanding, "when playing music, or anything except LFE, send nothing to the subwoofer. As you say, "While playing music the subs could not be heard at all." One work around is to engage LFE+Main, which sends the bass going to mains set for large to the subs as well. There is a potential problem with that option, too. You may get multipath distortion, lose some headroom (in the AVR power amplifier), and you may get increased modulation distortion. SEE AHEAD.


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Originally Posted by threshold350 View Post
I've run into this ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt2026 View Post
... I believe -10 to -11.5 is a good number. That gives room to adjust the bass upwards afterwards.


[Edit] You might want to study a bit... Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
Please do! That Guide (by Mike Thomas -- mthomas47) is terrific. It does the job the manuals should have done. You may want to use the "Cliff Notes" section at first, then read the rest at your leisure. Or ... get a cup of coffee, and plunge ahead, knowing that, like War and Peace, it is a masterpiece.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdildine View Post
What confuses me is that the bass completely disappears after running audyssey.

What does Audyssey "want" you to do? Set your main speakers (all speakers except the subs) to "SMALL," letting your sub do the work it was designed to do, and provide the lowest distortion of several kinds. Wouldn't it have been nice if your AVR manual told you this? "LARGE" and "SMALL" have nothing to do with the physical size of the speakers, just the bass capability, and "SMALL" is the correct setting for all main speakers. My mains are 52" high, 33" wide and 28" deep, and after stubbornly trying "Large" v.s. the recommended "Small" for many months, I set them for "Small" permanently. With a crossover to the sub of 80 Hz, the mains still provide a signal at a bit below 50 Hz (their "native" response in my room goes to 24 Hz), but the clarity and power of the overall system is best at X-over 80, "Small."


Apparent bass loss can happen for a variety of reasons (SEE ABOVE & BELOW).

  1. Failure to use all 8 microphone positions
  2. Audyssey attempts to set for Reference, not Preference, i.e., a smooth, flat room curve that neither boosts, nor cuts the bass, to allow us to hear the music more or less as it was heard in the control room. It does a pretty good job. BUT, several research studies have shown that most listeners not only prefer a bass boost of several dB (sometimes as much as 9 or 10 dB), but they also perceive such a boost as "natural," or "realistic." (SEE BELOW). Almost all Audyssey users boost their bass by a) turning up the subwoofer AFTER running Audyssey (if you do it before, Audyssey will just turn it down, and grumble) and b) Either turning up the bass tone control (which will turn up the mid & upper bass) or engaging Dynamic EQ if you play music and movies at significantly below concert/theater level, and happen to like DEQ. In turning up bass for preference, it is much better to start with the relatively smooth curve Audyssey gives you than with the kinky, craggy curve most rooms/speakers will provide.
  3. Even for those who don't want to use post-Audyssey sub boost, and tone control boost, there is a fly in the ointment. To oversimplify, it is now a widespread practice to turn down the bass "in the mix," for music recording. The suits want this, and recording engineers have learned not to complain about it. IMO, it is not done as much with classical music or jazz, and Blu-ray movies are usually fine.

[Too much caffeine]
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post #7330 of 8550 Old 12-26-2019, 04:11 PM
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Although it seems like Audyssey set your mains to large, it really wasn't Audyssey that set your mains to large -- it was your AVR or AVP that did that. The Audyssey engineers hate large -- you should hear their CTO and co-inventor rail against the practice of AVRs switching to large when the main speakers have pretty good bass! One reason, as you found out, is the "Large" setting means "although true Low Frequency Effects (generally on movies only) can be sent to the subwoofer, bass content of music (a la "bass management") will not be (when allowed, they both cone out of the output marked "sub" on the AVR).. In other words, the large setting is commanding, "when playing music, or anything except LFE, send nothing to the subwoofer. As you say, "While playing music the subs could not be heard at all." One work around is to engage LFE+Main, which sends the bass going to mains set for large to the subs as well. There is a potential problem with that option, too. You may get multipath distortion, lose some headroom (in the AVR power amplifier), and you may get increased modulation distortion. SEE AHEAD.




Please do! That Guide (by Mike Thomas -- mthomas47) is terrific. It does the job the manuals should have done. You may want to use the "Cliff Notes" section at first, then read the rest at your leisure. Or ... get a cup of coffee, and plunge ahead, knowing that, like War and Peace, it is a masterpiece.




What does Audyssey "want" you to do? Set your main speakers (all speakers except the subs) to "SMALL," letting your sub do the work it was designed to do, and provide the lowest distortion of several kinds. Wouldn't it have been nice if your AVR manual told you this? "LARGE" and "SMALL" have nothing to do with the physical size of the speakers, just the bass capability, and "SMALL" is the correct setting for all main speakers. My mains are 52" high, 33" wide and 28" deep, and after stubbornly trying "Large" v.s. the recommended "Small" for many months, I set them for "Small" permanently. With a crossover to the sub of 80 Hz, the mains still provide a signal at a bit below 50 Hz (their "native" response in my room goes to 24 Hz), but the clarity and power of the overall system is best at X-over 80, "Small."


Apparent bass loss can happen for a variety of reasons (SEE ABOVE & BELOW).

  1. Failure to use all 8 microphone positions
  2. Audyssey attempts to set for Reference, not Preference, i.e., a smooth, flat room curve that neither boosts, nor cuts the bass, to allow us to hear the music more or less as it was heard in the control room. It does a pretty good job. BUT, several research studies have shown that most listeners not only prefer a bass boost of several dB (sometimes as much as 9 or 10 dB), but they also perceive such a boost as "natural," or "realistic." (SEE BELOW). Almost all Audyssey users boost their bass by a) turning up the subwoofer AFTER running Audyssey (if you do it before, Audyssey will just turn it down, and grumble) and b) Either turning up the bass tone control (which will turn up the mid & upper bass) or engaging Dynamic EQ if you play music and movies at significantly below concert/theater level, and happen to like DEQ. In turning up bass for preference, it is much better to start with the relatively smooth curve Audyssey gives you than with the kinky, craggy curve most rooms/speakers will provide.
  3. Even for those who don't want to use post-Audyssey sub boost, and tone control boost, there is a fly in the ointment. To oversimplify, it is now a widespread practice to turn down the bass "in the mix," for music recording. The suits want this, and recording engineers have learned not to complain about it. IMO, it is not done as much with classical music or jazz, and Blu-ray movies are usually fine.

[Too much caffeine]
Thank you so much for the explanations. I have begun going through the thread provided above and still somehow missed the set the mains to small part and yes it would have been nice if my manual stated this I have now set the mains to small and bass has returned. I may rerun Audyssey and see what happens with the mains set to small. Thanks again.
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post #7331 of 8550 Old 12-26-2019, 04:38 PM
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Thank you so much for the explanations. I have begun going through the thread provided above and still somehow missed the set the mains to small part and yes it would have been nice if my manual stated this I have now set the mains to small and bass has returned. I may rerun Audyssey and see what happens with the mains set to small. Thanks again.

Your AVR may set the mains to large again so if you run Ausyssey check to see if they are again large. If so reset to small. Audyssey doesn't set them to large, it just reports the results to your AVR and the AVR makes the decision so you may have to correct it.
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post #7332 of 8550 Old 12-27-2019, 03:39 AM
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I just saw a youtube review of an upper end Marantz AVR. The Reviewer specifically mentions the bass problem. What worked best for him was to turn off DEQ and increase the subwoofer level by 4-6 dB. I tried it and so far it sounds pretty good.
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post #7333 of 8550 Old 12-27-2019, 07:12 AM
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Lightbulb Guide Edits

^^^

After reading several recent posts on this thread, I decided to go back to the Cliff Notes, which begin the Guide, and add both more detail and more emphasis to a number of the points. For those of us who are relatively new to HT (which has been all of us at one time) there is a lot of information to take-in all at once, even in the very abbreviated Cliff Notes format.

Please read the Cliff Notes several times, and let the information sink-in gradually. Some of the concepts are more complicated than they appear to be, and understanding them is important. For instance, almost everyone is going to need to add some subwoofer boost for 5.1 movies, after running an Audyssey calibration. That is not a flaw in Audyssey's operation. It is an intentional design decision.

Audyssey is attempting to make all of the channels in an HT system play at exactly the same volume, at a fixed master volume level, which is called Dolby/THX Reference. After an Audyssey calibration, that volume level is 0.0 MV. But, very few of us actually listen at 0.0 MV. That is very loud for most people, even with room treatments. The average AVS volume level is probably somewhere around -15 or -20 MV. And, at that volume level, we don't hear bass frequencies nearly as well as those in our normal hearing range of about 500Hz to 5000Hz.

So, as volume levels drop below 0.0 MV, bass frequencies drop away faster than other frequencies, and we need more bass volume to hear the bass in equilibrium with other frequencies. DynamicEQ (DEQ) is intended to compensate for that, to some extent, and many people find it very helpful. That's strictly a YMMV issue! But, even with DEQ engaged, the average subwoofer boost used on AVS seems to be about +3 to +6db. Without DEQ, the typical subwoofer boost would be much higher than that.

And then, there are the issues that Gary mentioned, such as the variances in recording levels, how much bass is embedded in the movie or music to start with, and the issues of personal preference, that we need to consider. How much bass we prefer to add, post-Audyssey, will inevitably vary by individual, and it may be both room-dependent and content-dependent. But, it is important to understand that it is absolutely normal (and typical) to add subwoofer boosts after an Audyssey calibration.

I appreciate the nice comments about the Guide, from my friends Gary and Ken, and I wish everyone a Happy Holiday Season!

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #7334 of 8550 Old 12-27-2019, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
^^^

After reading several recent posts on this thread, I decided to go back to the Cliff Notes, which begin the Guide, and add both more detail and more emphasis to a number of the points. For those of us who are relatively new to HT (which has been all of us at one time) there is a lot of information to take-in all at once, even in the very abbreviated Cliff Notes format.

Please read the Cliff Notes several times, and let the information sink-in gradually. Some of the concepts are more complicated than they appear to be, and understanding them is important. For instance, almost everyone is going to need to add some subwoofer boost for 5.1 movies, after running an Audyssey calibration. That is not a flaw in Audyssey's operation. It is an intentional design decision.

Audyssey is attempting to make all of the channels in an HT system play at exactly the same volume, at a fixed master volume level, which is called Dolby/THX Reference. After an Audyssey calibration, that volume level is 0.0 MV. But, very few of us actually listen at 0.0 MV. That is very loud for most people, even with room treatments. The average AVS volume level is probably somewhere around -15 or -20 MV. And, at that volume level, we don't hear bass frequencies nearly as well as those in our normal hearing range of about 500Hz to 5000Hz.

So, as volume levels drop below 0.0 MV, bass frequencies drop away faster than other frequencies, and we need more bass volume to hear the bass in equilibrium with other frequencies. DynamicEQ (DEQ) is intended to compensate for that, to some extent, and many people find it very helpful. That's strictly a YMMV issue! But, even with DEQ engaged, the average subwoofer boost used on AVS seems to be about +3 to +6db. Without DEQ, the typical subwoofer boost would be much higher than that.

And then, there are the issues that Gary mentioned, such as the variances in recording levels, how much bass is embedded in the movie or music to start with, and the issues of personal preference, that we need to consider. How much bass we prefer to add, post-Audyssey, will inevitably vary by individual, and it may be both room-dependent and content-dependent. But, it is important to understand that it is absolutely normal (and typical) to add subwoofer boosts after an Audyssey calibration.

I appreciate the nice comments about the Guide, from my friends Gary and Ken, and I wish everyone a Happy Holiday Season!

Regards,
Mike
Thank you for taking the time to clarify and for the guide to begin with. I do feel guilty for posting so many questions concerning these subjects, both the set up and the equipment. I find the advice here invaluable and although very new to this forum it has already helped me decide speakers to purchase and how to set them up. I will keep reading through your original guide. The guide has information I had no idea was needed to enjoy the music and the HT that I do enjoy so much. Thank you again to you and everyone that has responded, even though I am sure they have seen these types of questions over and over.

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Thank you for taking the time to clarify and for the guide to begin with. I do feel guilty for posting so many questions concerning these subjects, both the set up and the equipment. I find the advice here invaluable and although very new to this forum it has already helped me decide speakers to purchase and how to set them up. I will keep reading through your original guide. The guide has information I had no idea was needed to enjoy the music and the HT that I do enjoy so much. Thank you again to you and everyone that has responded, even though I am sure they have seen these types of questions over and over.
I have found that it's helpful to revisit and read the guide every so often, because we sometimes either forget or hear/learn new things (additive or contradicting) over time and sometimes it also just makes more sense after a while. Things just click, whereas the very first time I had so many questions and wanted everything explicitly defined for my exact setup.

Also, after changing settings, I like to set it and forget for a couple of days/weeks and not fall into the vicious cycle of striving for perfection.
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Speaker Distance Issue

Hey all,

Brand new home theatre with a speaker issue. Running a 7.2.4 setup with a Denon 4400 receiver. Using a cheap Dayton 60w stereo amp for the rear top speakers.

The problem is after running Audyssey, the rear top speakers are set to a distance about 8’ more than what they should be.

I’ve tried googling this and looking on the forums, but I can’t seem to find anything about this. Not sure if I should adjust this or not.

Any help would be appreciated!!
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post #7337 of 8550 Old 12-27-2019, 04:56 PM
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Hey all,

Brand new home theatre with a speaker issue. Running a 7.2.4 setup with a Denon 4400 receiver. Using a cheap Dayton 60w stereo amp for the rear top speakers.

The problem is after running Audyssey, the rear top speakers are set to a distance about 8’ more than what they should be.

I’ve tried googling this and looking on the forums, but I can’t seem to find anything about this. Not sure if I should adjust this or not.

Any help would be appreciated!!
What is the model of the dayton amplifier?

If it has any signal processing on it for balance/etc then it could be putting a delay on the signal which would result in audyssey thinking the speaker is farther away.

-Rich
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What is the model of the dayton amplifier?

If it has any signal processing on it for balance/etc then it could be putting a delay on the signal which would result in audyssey thinking the speaker is farther away.

-Rich
Hey Rich,

The model is APA102BT. I don’t see anything on it for delay. It does have a balance knob.

Thanks for the reply.
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post #7339 of 8550 Old 12-28-2019, 06:43 AM
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Hey Rich,

The model is APA102BT. I don’t see anything on it for delay. It does have a balance knob.

Thanks for the reply.
I do notice a slight volume change on the 1st chirp of the Audyssey test tone when it gets to the rear top (externally powered) speakers. The first chirp seems to transition from a lower volume to higher volume. The rest of the tones on those speakers are ok. If this sheds some light....
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post #7340 of 8550 Old 12-28-2019, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Rick Lajeunesse View Post
Hey all,

Brand new home theatre with a speaker issue. Running a 7.2.4 setup with a Denon 4400 receiver. Using a cheap Dayton 60w stereo amp for the rear top speakers.

The problem is after running Audyssey, the rear top speakers are set to a distance about 8’ more than what they should be.

I’ve tried googling this and looking on the forums, but I can’t seem to find anything about this. Not sure if I should adjust this or not.

Any help would be appreciated!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Lajeunesse View Post
I do notice a slight volume change on the 1st chirp of the Audyssey test tone when it gets to the rear top (externally powered) speakers. The first chirp seems to transition from a lower volume to higher volume. The rest of the tones on those speakers are ok. If this sheds some light....

Hi Rick,

I don't know if I can help you or not. I guess, to some extent, it depends on how we define being helpful. If help here consists of appropriately diagnosing the potential issue behind the increased distance setting, I don't think I can. But, Audyssey is just measuring the actual arrival time of the sounds from the various channels, and it normally gets the distance settings right. I may also be able to persuade you that delay is often a little over-rated in terms of audibility.

Several years ago, I experimented quite a bit with the delay on some of my speakers, in order to find out how much difference it made in the sound. I discovered that I could change the stereo balance point just slightly, between my very widely-spaced front speakers, by changing the distances that Audyssey had set for those speakers. But, I also discovered that even a 0.5db change in volume for one of the speakers had more audible impact than changing the delay by several feet did. (At sea level, sound travels 1' per millisecond.)

If your overhead speakers are set for distances that exceed their physical distance from your main listening position, all that means is that Audyssey is speeding-up the arrival time of those speakers to help you hear them at about the same time that the sound arrives from your other channels. Since the overhead speakers are mainly just providing ambient sound effects anyway, I think that it may be very hard for you to hear an audible problem.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't remain curious about why Audyssey is setting those distances the way it is. It may very well have something to do with latency in your external amplifier. And, we are all a little bit OCD about issues like these. But, if you can't hear a problem with the sound from the overhead speakers arriving a little sooner (not later, but sooner) then I wouldn't worry about it too much. Of course, if you are able to detect something, then you could either reduce the distance (to delay the signal), or you could try adjusting the volume of those speakers a little.

Just experiment if you want to! You can always return to the original settings, afterwards. I found that volume trumps the arrival time of sounds, for me, in my room. So, those are two variables you can experiment with if you want to. Or, if you really can't hear an audible difference in your channels, you can just let the issue go. I hope this helps!

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 12-28-2019 at 07:51 AM.
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post #7341 of 8550 Old 12-28-2019, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Lajeunesse View Post
Hey all,

Brand new home theatre with a speaker issue. Running a 7.2.4 setup with a Denon 4400 receiver. Using a cheap Dayton 60w stereo amp for the rear top speakers.

The problem is after running Audyssey, the rear top speakers are set to a distance about 8’ more than what they should be.

I’ve tried googling this and looking on the forums, but I can’t seem to find anything about this. Not sure if I should adjust this or not.

Any help would be appreciated!!
Stupid question:

Are your rear height speakers actually mounted in the ceiling or are they the sort of height speaker that sits on top of another speaker and bounces the sound off the ceiling? The delay time that Audyssey measures is the time it takes for the sound to travel from the AVR to the measuring position so it includes delays occurring in the speaker crossover and electronics. If your speaker is one of the up-firing height speakers that bounces sound off the ceiling, then the air travel path of the sound goes from speaker to ceiling to measuring position and that is going to add several feet to the distance Audyssey sets compared to the distance it would set for the same speaker/crossover arrangement actually physically mounted in the ceiling with an air travel path that only goes from ceiling to measuring position.

If you have an 8' ceiling the height from your ears to the ceiling directly above you will be a bit less than 5' away (average seated ear height somewhere around 40") and if the speakers are about 3' behind you then we would add about another 2' or so to that distance for an Audyssey measurement of roughly 7'. If the speakers are up firing speakers mounted on speakers behind you and reflecting from a point 3' behind you then we can roughly double the distance from speaker to you, adding another 7' or so. It's very easy to see how Audyssey could report an 8' greater distance if the rear height speakers are up firing speakers located somewhere around your head height and 5' to 6' or so behind you.
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post #7342 of 8550 Old 12-28-2019, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Lajeunesse View Post
I do notice a slight volume change on the 1st chirp of the Audyssey test tone when it gets to the rear top (externally powered) speakers. The first chirp seems to transition from a lower volume to higher volume. The rest of the tones on those speakers are ok. If this sheds some light....
This might be better addressed Denon 4400 thread.

In my experience the soft then louder chirp occurs when the amplifier isn't turned up loud enough. What is the speaker level for those speakers? If they are at +12db then it is maxing out the adjustment and it may also increase the distance to compensate.

If you haven't maxed out the volume on the amp or at least set it to 3/4 on the front vol knob then I would re-run it again at the higher volume setting. I have this same issue on my nr1403s that I use to expand form 9.2.4 to 9.2.6. I only have the volume set to 61 because above that I get some hiss. If I go lower then it has trouble adjusting for the gain on those channels. I also get a much larger distance setting because I am processing the each of the two channels with prologic which creates an extra delay.

-Rich

Quad Marantz AVR 9.2.(4+2) Atmos/DTS:X using Dual sr7010's + Dual scAtmos nr1403's
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfb6435 View Post
This might be better addressed Denon 4400 thread.

In my experience the soft then louder chirp occurs when the amplifier isn't turned up loud enough.

The volume setting on the amplifier is irrelevant to what happens during an Audyssey calibration.

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post #7344 of 8550 Old 12-28-2019, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt2026 View Post
-12 is the lowest number Audyssey will report, it could be even lower. It couldn't set the AVR to a low enough number. turn down the sub volume a bit and run again. It may take several attempts. I believe -10 to -11.5 is a good number. That give room to adjust the bass upwards afterwards.


[Edit] You might want to study a bit... Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
Bingo! I just hooked up some height speakers and had to rerun the calibration so I tried your suggestion of turning down the level on the sub and the Audyssey tool set the Subwoofer to -3 dB this time and it sounds great. Thanks for the tip!
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post #7345 of 8550 Old 12-28-2019, 05:21 PM
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Bingo! I just hooked up some height speakers and had to rerun the calibration so I tried your suggestion of turning down the level on the sub and the Audyssey tool set the Subwoofer to -3 dB this time and it sounds great. Thanks for the tip!

You're quite welcome. I was just passing on info from Mike @mthomas47 ! As well as others who have helped educate many folks.

You can certainly run with the -3 reading but it doesn't leave a lot of room for sub adjustments upward, should you desire to do so.

IF you care to run Audyssey again you could turn the sub back up a bit. The -10 to -11.5 range is liked by some here because you can then turn the sub volume up in Audyssey by 5 to 6 dB and not get into clipping the sub output of the AVR which can cause a lot of distortion. Even getting it down to -6 to -8 after the Audyssey run will give you more adjustment.


Of course if you're happy with what you have, then enjoy your setup
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Appreciate you posting your tips and tricks for Audyssey! I have been using the following mic pattern with good success (but am curious about yours so may give it a try next time I run Audyssey for comparison):


1. Main Listening position
2. 10 inches to the right of position 1 (at ear level)
3. 10 inches to the left of position 1 (at ear level)
4. 20 inches forward of position 3 (at ear level)
5. 20 inches right of position 4 (at ear level)
6. 14 inches forward of position 1 (at ear level)
7. 5 inches to the left of position 1 (3 inches above ear level)
8. 5 inches to the right of position 1 (3 inches above ear level)


Also, could you diagram out your Audyssey mic pattern. I want to be sure I understand your recommendations.
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Rick,

I don't know if I can help you or not. I guess, to some extent, it depends on how we define being helpful. If help here consists of appropriately diagnosing the potential issue behind the increased distance setting, I don't think I can. But, Audyssey is just measuring the actual arrival time of the sounds from the various channels, and it normally gets the distance settings right. I may also be able to persuade you that delay is often a little over-rated in terms of audibility.

Several years ago, I experimented quite a bit with the delay on some of my speakers, in order to find out how much difference it made in the sound. I discovered that I could change the stereo balance point just slightly, between my very widely-spaced front speakers, by changing the distances that Audyssey had set for those speakers. But, I also discovered that even a 0.5db change in volume for one of the speakers had more audible impact than changing the delay by several feet did. (At sea level, sound travels 1' per millisecond.)

If your overhead speakers are set for distances that exceed their physical distance from your main listening position, all that means is that Audyssey is speeding-up the arrival time of those speakers to help you hear them at about the same time that the sound arrives from your other channels. Since the overhead speakers are mainly just providing ambient sound effects anyway, I think that it may be very hard for you to hear an audible problem.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't remain curious about why Audyssey is setting those distances the way it is. It may very well have something to do with latency in your external amplifier. And, we are all a little bit OCD about issues like these. But, if you can't hear a problem with the sound from the overhead speakers arriving a little sooner (not later, but sooner) then I wouldn't worry about it too much. Of course, if you are able to detect something, then you could either reduce the distance (to delay the signal), or you could try adjusting the volume of those speakers a little.

Just experiment if you want to! You can always return to the original settings, afterwards. I found that volume trumps the arrival time of sounds, for me, in my room. So, those are two variables you can experiment with if you want to. Or, if you really can't hear an audible difference in your channels, you can just let the issue go. I hope this helps!

Regards,
Mike
Hi Mike,

Thanks very much for the response. Everybody here has been so helpful! As this is my first real theatre setup (previous was 5.1), I don’t really know what to expect sound wise from the Atmos speakers. I just found it odd that I couldn’t find any info when googling so I thought it may be an issue with my equipment. I will play around with it to see if I can notice any difference. Like you said, just a little OCD...:-)

Rick
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post #7349 of 8550 Old 12-29-2019, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aiken View Post
Stupid question:

Are your rear height speakers actually mounted in the ceiling or are they the sort of height speaker that sits on top of another speaker and bounces the sound off the ceiling? The delay time that Audyssey measures is the time it takes for the sound to travel from the AVR to the measuring position so it includes delays occurring in the speaker crossover and electronics. If your speaker is one of the up-firing height speakers that bounces sound off the ceiling, then the air travel path of the sound goes from speaker to ceiling to measuring position and that is going to add several feet to the distance Audyssey sets compared to the distance it would set for the same speaker/crossover arrangement actually physically mounted in the ceiling with an air travel path that only goes from ceiling to measuring position.

If you have an 8' ceiling the height from your ears to the ceiling directly above you will be a bit less than 5' away (average seated ear height somewhere around 40") and if the speakers are about 3' behind you then we would add about another 2' or so to that distance for an Audyssey measurement of roughly 7'. If the speakers are up firing speakers mounted on speakers behind you and reflecting from a point 3' behind you then we can roughly double the distance from speaker to you, adding another 7' or so. It's very easy to see how Audyssey could report an 8' greater distance if the rear height speakers are up firing speakers located somewhere around your head height and 5' to 6' or so behind you.
Hi David,

Thanks for the reply. The Atmos speakers are in the ceiling. The front tops are Denon powered and correctly set while the rear tops are externally powered and incorrect.

Rick
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post #7350 of 8550 Old 12-29-2019, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m0j0 View Post
Appreciate you posting your tips and tricks for Audyssey! I have been using the following mic pattern with good success (but am curious about yours so may give it a try next time I run Audyssey for comparison):


1. Main Listening position
2. 10 inches to the right of position 1 (at ear level)
3. 10 inches to the left of position 1 (at ear level)
4. 20 inches forward of position 3 (at ear level)
5. 20 inches right of position 4 (at ear level)
6. 14 inches forward of position 1 (at ear level)
7. 5 inches to the left of position 1 (3 inches above ear level)
8. 5 inches to the right of position 1 (3 inches above ear level)


Also, could you diagram out your Audyssey mic pattern. I want to be sure I understand your recommendations.
Hi m0j0, I am glad you found it useful. I would highly suggest trying the Harman Curve, as it has been the greatest tweak I have ever heard applied to Audyssey, post calibration. All you do is set Audyssey from the default Reference to Flat, then turn on tone controls in your options menu and put treble to -5 and bass to +1.

As for my suggested mic pattern, it is pretty similar to yours as far as the movement, just much tighter (again, you can move double the amount if you want a wider calibration zone, but I like to keep my pattern more focused on the MLP.)

As for the pattern, I will update my original post and also here is the diagram.

1. Main Listening position (MLP) (I suggest marking MLP with a piece of tape (make an x) or object right under where the mic is)
2. 3 inches forward of MLP
3. 3 inches up from MLP (back in MLP, raise your mic 3 inches higher than ear level)
4. 3 inches up and 3 inches forward (3 inches forward from MLP, keep the mic 3 inches higher than ear level)
5. 3 inches left of MLP (put the mic back at ear level)
6. 3 inches right of MLP
7. 6 inches left of MLP
8. 6 inches right of MLP

When I say "up", I mean put the mic 3 inches higher than ear level. So you are taking 2 measurements with the mic above ear level, the other 6 with it at ear level.

You can also alternate the mic height more often. I have tested that and found the results are not very different.

Edit: I will try your mic pattern but shorten the distances. Thank you for posting that as well! Appreciated.
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Last edited by ArchonX; 12-29-2019 at 11:02 AM.
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