"Official" Audyssey thread Part II - Page 25 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #721 of 7281 Old 07-12-2016, 03:03 PM
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maestro50, I will toss out that, sometimes, a room's signature ... what Audyssey is removing as best it can ... has favorable characteristics for certain kinds of music. A test could be to put on an entirely different genre and see if the bypass still sounds better. If you think it's better with studio music, try live. Or vice versa.

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post #722 of 7281 Old 07-12-2016, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Trim level is not something to obsess over, though..
I agree, the filters are much more important.

But, I obsess over trim level about once every couple of months. If all movies had about the same left to right balance (or a plausible left to right balance), all would be well. But, we are viewing about 2 to 6 movies a week, and every once in a while there is one that is out of balance (often "catalog" movies that didn't get restored, or a foreign, or independent, film.. For this reason, I usually sample some of the opening music alone in the room, before others arrive in the HT. Almost always the opening music tells the tale. I change the LF & RF trims, then change them back to the written down "correct levels" that Audyssey determined after the movie is over. Rather rarely, the center channel needs to be turned up because of unclear dialog.
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post #723 of 7281 Old 07-12-2016, 07:36 PM
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I agree, the filters are much more important.

But, I obsess over trim level about once every couple of months. If all movies had about the same left to right balance (or a plausible left to right balance), all would be well. But, we are viewing about 2 to 6 movies a week, and every once in a while there is one that is out of balance (often "catalog" movies that didn't get restored, or a foreign, or independent, film.. For this reason, I usually sample some of the opening music alone in the room, before others arrive in the HT. Almost always the opening music tells the tale. I change the LF & RF trims, then change them back to the written down "correct levels" that Audyssey determined after the movie is over. Rather rarely, the center channel needs to be turned up because of unclear dialog.

But that's not really obsessing. You are just making rational adjustments, as required. I actually have a similar experience. I never need to adjust trim levels for music. Once they are set properly, I can leave them that way. But, as you observed, not all movies seem to be recorded with exactly the same left/right, or even front/surround balance, so occasionally (although, not often) I need to make adjustments to properly enjoy a movie. But I do it very un-obsessively.
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post #724 of 7281 Old 07-12-2016, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post

There are reasons why Audyssey does those things, but I'm not discussing the merits of the Reference Curve, or of DEQ, but only how it may affect your perception of a more, or less, natural sound. Speaking only for myself, in my room, with my system, the most natural sound is achieved with Flat, no DEQ, and -1 Treble on my front speakers (using my Tone Control). Others on the thread will undoubtedly have entirely different views regarding what makes acoustical instruments, with which they are familiar, sound most natural in their rooms, with their systems.
Your response is very helpful and greatly appreciated.
Interesting that you would mention that Flat works best for you, since I had dismissed it.
I didn't have much time to listen tonight, but the little I did suggests that I may have to give Flat another try.
You are right, the timbre of instruments is quite good, but in my room, the soundstage collapses some as compared to Reference or LR Bypass.

You mention that some people enjoy switching back and forth between modes and I can see how that might be the case.
I listened to a period instrument performance on Reference this evening and enjoyed it very much. But a piano recording was awful. The Steinway sounded like, well, NOT like a Steinway.

It's fun to tweak and experiment, but I had begun to feel like I was doing something "wrong."
Thanks for the explanation.
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post #725 of 7281 Old 07-13-2016, 02:06 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Speaking only for myself, in my room, with my system, the most natural sound is achieved with Flat, no DEQ, and -1 Treble on my front speakers (using my Tone Control). Others on the thread will undoubtedly have entirely different views regarding what makes acoustical instruments, with which they are familiar, sound most natural in their rooms, with their systems..
In my room, with my system, with most movies and most music the most natural sound is with Audyssey Flat, and No DEQ. I shy away from cutting the Treble (although I have to on one old movie). I do use the Tone control to adjust bass on the LF & RF, usually between 0 (flat) and +6 dB. I boost the sub, as do most people here, anywhere from 3 dB to 8 dB. I set the Main Volume by ear. With music on CD or SACD, it can be anywhere, depending on the disk. I listen to virtually all kinds of music, especially classical and later orchestral, at a SPL close to live. With movies the Main Volume setting starts out at 5 dB below reference, awaiting confirmation when dialog starts. The dialog sounds natural, and measures that way*, at 5 dB below reference most of the time. If I played back at a significantly lower level, I might use DEQ.

* I measured friends talking naturally in our HT. The mean centered around 60 to 65 dB, peaking at 70 dB, or a bit higher, all at C weighting, "Fast." When I tried a few movies, setting the MV by ear, as usual, the dialog measured at those same levels. Looking at the MV, I saw it was set to 5 dB below reference! There are exceptions, like one Lilly Tomlin movie, in which she speaks very emphatically, occasionally producing peaks of 74 dB at a MV setting of 6 dB below reference. All of this is based on using Blu-rays, almost always with DTS HD Master. DVDs seem to be recorded at a significantly lower level.
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post #726 of 7281 Old 07-13-2016, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
I agree, the filters are much more important.

But, I obsess over trim level about once every couple of months. If all movies had about the same left to right balance (or a plausible left to right balance), all would be well. But, we are viewing about 2 to 6 movies a week, and every once in a while there is one that is out of balance (often "catalog" movies that didn't get restored, or a foreign, or independent, film.. For this reason, I usually sample some of the opening music alone in the room, before others arrive in the HT. Almost always the opening music tells the tale. I change the LF & RF trims, then change them back to the written down "correct levels" that Audyssey determined after the movie is over. Rather rarely, the center channel needs to be turned up because of unclear dialog.
And does anybody else notice the results of your efforts?
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post #727 of 7281 Old 07-13-2016, 04:54 PM
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And does anybody else notice the results of your efforts?

"Ars Gratia Artis"! Perfection is it's own reward.
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post #728 of 7281 Old 07-13-2016, 05:31 PM
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"Ars Gratia Artis"! Perfection is it's own reward.
Touché!
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post #729 of 7281 Old 07-13-2016, 06:30 PM
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And does anybody else notice the results of your efforts?
Some have, mostly my wife who I would call into the room while setting up and ask, "Am I crazy, or is this out of balance right to left, and if so, which side dominates?" She usually identifies the same side as being low that I do. Sometimes she doesn't hear a difference in balance. My daughter is very sensitive to the difference between various levels of recording quality, but hasn't commented about R/L balance. As I said, differences in balance among movies are rare. Most of the time our standard Audyssey determined balance is fine. When it's out, it is often that the extreme left or right (front) doesn't seem to be doing much for long periods of time ... or the imaging is not as good as usual. Guess what film has the all time best front orchestral imaging at out house (but doesn't have much LFE). Star Trek: The Wrath of the Khan. Our award for best sound effects imaging goes to The Grey; during the major event in the early part of the film, it seemed that there were 4 to 5 channels down each side of the room, with just 5.1. At 5 dB below reference it was positively frightening.
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post #730 of 7281 Old 07-13-2016, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by maestro50 View Post
Your response is very helpful and greatly appreciated.
Interesting that you would mention that Flat works best for you, since I had dismissed it.
I didn't have much time to listen tonight, but the little I did suggests that I may have to give Flat another try.
You are right, the timbre of instruments is quite good, but in my room, the soundstage collapses some as compared to Reference or LR Bypass.

You mention that some people enjoy switching back and forth between modes and I can see how that might be the case.
I listened to a period instrument performance on Reference this evening and enjoyed it very much. But a piano recording was awful. The Steinway sounded like, well, NOT like a Steinway.

It's fun to tweak and experiment, but I had begun to feel like I was doing something "wrong."
Thanks for the explanation.
Room correction above Schroeder is not universally considered a good thing. Personally, I use L/R bypass on my mains with Audyssey, since whatever corrections are made degrade the sound on my speakers and in my room. Same with Dirac.

If you have accurate speakers with smooth on and off axis response within a decent listening window, then what you're hearing is likely correct - your speakers sound better without auto-RC. There are respected experts that will tell you that if you start with a well behaved, accurate speaker on and off axis, you will be better off without room correction in most rooms. There are always exceptions.

The only thing for certain is there are no absolute rules. The individual speaker, room, and listener need to be considered.
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post #731 of 7281 Old 07-14-2016, 09:48 AM
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Room correction above Schroeder is not universally considered a good thing. Personally, I use L/R bypass on my mains with Audyssey, since whatever corrections are made degrade the sound on my speakers and in my room. Same with Dirac.

If you have accurate speakers with smooth on and off axis response within a decent listening window, then what you're hearing is likely correct - your speakers sound better without auto-RC. There are respected experts that will tell you that if you start with a well behaved, accurate speaker on and off axis, you will be better off without room correction in most rooms. There are always exceptions.

The only thing for certain is there are no absolute rules. The individual speaker, room, and listener need to be considered.
That's a good post! I like trying to take a balanced viewpoint on most things, and particularly with respect to entertainment preferences. The greatest service that we can do for each other on this thread, in my opinion, is not to be advocates for Audyssey, or for using Audyssey in a particular way. Instead, I like the idea of just helping other people to trouble-shoot and optimize their particular set-ups, calibrations, and settings, so that they can arrive at their own preferred use (or non-use) of Audyssey.

It's interesting sometimes to listen to various "respected experts" discuss how best to deal with room issues even below Schroeder. I have seen advocates for three distinct camps clash sometimes, with very little allowance for each others' viewpoints. One camp advocates using multiple subwoofers (the number and arrangement of subs varies). Another camp advocates using bass traps (sometimes with some EQ below about 60Hz, due to inherent frequency limitations in attenuation with traps). The third camp advocates EQ in various forms as a panacea. To be fair, the third camp is less well represented in those discussions.

But there often doesn't seem to be much focus on the value of combining methods in some of those discussions. It's as if some feel that their "expertise" depends on the singular efficacy of what they are recommending. Again, to be fair though, the experts I prefer to listen to acknowledge the value of combining approaches, and using whatever combination of multiple subs, bass traps, and EQ, are most useful and practical in the particular situation.

I think that the same thing is true with respect to EQing a room above Schroeder. Many experts tend to discount the value of EQ above about 400Hz, but then they are also all over the place about the value of attenuating early and late reflections with room treatments too. As with anything in audio, I think it is up to the individual listener to decide what he likes in his particular circumstances.

Gary G. for instance, has consistently said that XT helps with the upper treble in his room. And I believe him. In my room, with the even more efficacious XT-32, it is in the bass and mid-range frequencies where room correction is most helpful. In my case, it was a challenge to keep my set-up and calibration technique from causing negative effects to the treble, so that I could fully enjoy the benefits of EQ in the bass (primarily) and in the mid-range. It took awhile, but I succeeded in that goal.

"The only thing for certain is there are no absolute rules. The individual speaker, room, and listener need to be considered."

That last statement is right on the money as far as I am concerned.

Regards,
Mike

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post #732 of 7281 Old 07-14-2016, 12:03 PM
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^^^^Wise words guys ,wise words
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Just wanted to share my experience with Audyssey, since I finally got results I'm very happy with. I'm using multeq xt. And running 4 subs. My previous issues where mainly with my center channel. Dialogue would often seem muffled with dynamic eq on. I'd end up turning dynamic eq off, still have to turn center channel up a few db, and even then I'd get distortion on loud scenes, people screaming, that sort of thing. On top of losing low end and lacking a more full sound with dynamic eq off. I actually LIKE dynamic eq. My center was a klipsch rc42 and I realized that was part of the issue. It just couldn't keep up with my mains and I had to cross it over to high(120hz). And to people with center channel issues, it may not be Audyssey, might just be your speaker. I found a Klipsch Synergy b3 bookshelf that goes great with my synergy towers. That fixed a lot of my issues. It can easily be crossed @80hz. But, something was still off. For calibration, my method was a mic stand in my seats. I decided to raise the stand and put it on the floor directly behind my listening positions with the mic just above the couch height. And then about 3ft in front of listening positions at the same height for a total of 8 calibration positions. That did it! Results where amazing and for the first time I could keep dynamic eq on with awesome results. I did still bump my subs level as usual. As well as center channel. But center is no longer muffled, also not harsh. Just right. As for how I set up my subs. I level matched each one to 70db at my main listening position. Used the built in test tone feature of my denon avr and had the sub level at 0. With alI subs going I was getting about 78-80db at main listening position. Did all this prior to calibration, and was my first try at running 4 subs. I read a ton of information before I finally decided on this method and I couldn't be happier. So to anyone having trouble with Audyssey, or not liking the results, try different methods, or possibly different equipment. Gotta realize that sometimes what you have may not have the capability to give the results you want. And read all the posts on avs forum to school yourself . Hopefully these tips will help someone with there setup.
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post #734 of 7281 Old 07-15-2016, 01:14 PM
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Hopefully these tips will help someone with there setup.
Great write up Toneb210, thanks for sharing. Would it be too much to ask to share a couple of photos of your room setup? That would be educational to many of us, I'm sure. Thx.
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Great write up Toneb210, thanks for sharing. Would it be too much to ask to share a couple of photos of your room setup? That would be educational to many of us, I'm sure. Thx.
Thanks. And yes I can absolutely share some pics. I havent taken any with my most recent changes. But I'll get some posted this evening.
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Thanks. And yes I can absolutely share some pics. I havent taken any with my most recent changes. But I'll get some posted this evening.
Lookin' forward with great interest!!
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Lookin' forward with great interest!!
Just added a couple pics to the post.
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post #738 of 7281 Old 07-16-2016, 08:16 AM
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Just added a couple pics to the post.
Congrats! A very nice and clean setup, indeed. I bet it sounds awesome! Thanks for sharing the pix.
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Monday I'm getting tile in the family room. Will the sound change from having carpet and will audyssey help having tile?

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Monday I'm getting tile in the family room. Will the sound change from having carpet and will audyssey help having tile?

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Yes! the sound will definitely change , you could add an area rug to help tame some of the floor bounce (think more lively) and Audyssey will indeed help
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Yes! the sound will definitely change , you could add an area rug to help tame some of the floor bounce (think more lively) and Audyssey will indeed help
Yup my wife is going to buy a rug to place in the center.

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Yup my wife is going to buy a rug to place in the center.

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That should help tons! just sit back and listen and then run Audyssey and see what it brings to the table, if not to your liking are you and or the Misses opposed to room treatments?
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That should help tons! just sit back and listen and then run Audyssey and see what it brings to the table, if not to your liking are you and or the Misses opposed to room treatments?
I wouldn't mind room treatment but in a family room opened to the kitchen it will look horrible I think.

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I wouldn't mind room treatment but in a family room opened to the kitchen it will look horrible I think.

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There are many many, decor options and some cases adds a nice touch
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post #745 of 7281 Old 07-16-2016, 01:24 PM
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Yup my wife is going to buy a rug to place in the center.

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The rug will help, but if I were you I would also put a piece of foam under the area rug. A fairly thick rubber pad will not only help to preserve the rug, and keep it from sliding, it will also provide some additional attenuation. That is an example of an inconspicuous room treatment that can be added in a mixed-use room. Acoustic panels, designed to look like paintings, are another popular choice, but really anything that helps to either break-up or absorb mid and high frequency sounds can be helpful.

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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
The rug will help, but if I were you I would also put a piece of foam under the area rug. A fairly thick rubber pad will not only help to preserve the rug, and keep it from sliding, it will also provide some additional attenuation. That is an example of an inconspicuous room treatment that can be added in a mixed-use room. Acoustic panels, designed to look like paintings, are another popular choice, but really anything that helps to either break-up or absorb mid and high frequency sounds can be helpful.
Yeah, on a good note I can now put my Auralex gramma to better use for my subs since I'll have tile now. With the carpet it was useless.

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post #747 of 7281 Old 07-16-2016, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by asere View Post
Yeah, on a good note I can now put my Auralex gramma to better use for my subs since I'll have tile now. With the carpet it was useless.

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There's always a bright side!
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post #748 of 7281 Old 07-16-2016, 05:32 PM
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I noticed that there is a large difference in trim levels for each channel that Audyssey sets vs what you can manually set.
Audyssey sets trim below zero fro all my speakers. Where as if I do them manually (measure using REW SPL meter to 75dB and internal test tomes from AVR), they all are above 0.
What is there such a large difference (in the tune of 5dB or more)?
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post #749 of 7281 Old 07-16-2016, 06:37 PM
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Monday I'm getting tile in the family room. Will the sound change from having carpet and will audyssey help having tile?

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It will get much more "live." Use area rugs, especially at the point where a straight line from the tweeter will bounce off the tile and up to your ears at listening positions, then re-run Audyssey. Audyssey will help a little.

The "West Coast Sound" used to (most often) be JBL or Altec speakers. Tile floors used to be pictured often in the advertisements, because tile was very California. It was often very, very bright, so people scattered small area rugs, with rubber grips underneath.
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post #750 of 7281 Old 07-16-2016, 09:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
I noticed that there is a large difference in trim levels for each channel that Audyssey sets vs what you can manually set.
Audyssey sets trim below zero fro all my speakers. Where as if I do them manually (measure using REW SPL meter to 75dB and internal test tomes from AVR), they all are above 0.
What is there such a large difference (in the tune of 5dB or more)?
Suggest you post specifics about each speaker make/model, level set by Audyssey vs your manual setup. Was mic/meter in same exact position for both measurements?
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