"Official" Audyssey thread Part II - Page 26 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #751 of 7273 Old 07-17-2016, 10:15 AM
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I am also interested in seeing the answers to those questions. Here are a few general thoughts on the issue, though, in advance of that. First, I keep a written log of all of my calibrations so that I can compare them. I have found that even when I am trying to repeat exact mic placements using a graph and a tape measure, I can get some changes in trim settings. I can get even more swings if I change microphones. I have two Audyssey mics, and I have experimented with both.

The microphone issue alone is a significant one, The Audyssey mic is rated to have an error factor of +/- 3db. I believe that the calibrated UMIK-1 has an error factor of about +/- 1db. If your Audyssey mic. were at one end of its allowable range, and the UMIK-1 were at the other end, that alone could account for a 4db swing in trim settings. Couple that with the difficulty in maintaining exact positioning through the full 8 mic positions (I believe that Audyssey sets trim levels based on all 8 positions, and not just on position 1) and that could easily explain the difference.

It's an interesting question, but FWIW, I don't think the trim differences between the two measurements really matter very much in the larger scheme of things. As long as Audyssey is setting the trim levels equivalently to each other, so that all speakers play the same volume at the MLP, I think it has accomplished its objective. There have been lengthy discussions on this thread (and on others) on the difficulty of ever knowing exactly what Reference volume is anyway, given variable numbers of speakers, individualized sub boosts, and so on. So, knowing that our speakers are all playing at the same volume, relative to each other, and generally relative to Reference, seems to me to be the most important thing.

Regards,
Mike
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post #752 of 7273 Old 07-19-2016, 07:51 AM
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I guess the adjustment microphones are paired with the receivers. Is it possible to buy a new audyssey microphone from the market ?
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post #753 of 7273 Old 07-19-2016, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by ozkarah View Post
I guess the adjustment microphones are paired with the receivers. Is it possible to buy a new audyssey microphone from the market ?

Yes, and the mics are interchangeable as long as you use the same general type--ie tower type versus flat. This is an example of what you are probably looking for: https://www.amazon.com/Denon-Audysse...sey+microphone

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post #754 of 7273 Old 07-31-2016, 09:13 AM
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Hey guys - I'm a new owner of the Marantz 8802A and I have a few questions about Audyseey and some of the sound settings please.

1. When I ran Audsyeey it said my L/R (I only have a 2.1 setup at the moment) were out of phase, but had a disclaimer that even with the proper wiring it may still think that with some rooms). I double checked my wiring and its correct. I assume this is fairly normal if they have that disclaimer in there. My temporary set up is in a room that's far from ideal - 12 foot ceiling, windows all along a side wall and rear wall, fully open side of the room etc. Just curious what conditions can cause this and if its safe to ignore.

2. It has my distances quite wrong. It thinks my L/R are 2 feet further than they are. And it thinks my subwoofer is 10 feet further than it is. Should I manually fix these in them menu? Or is the Audyseey configuration all tied to this and if it thinks that's the distance that it needs for the EQ compensation just leave it as is? IOW while my overrides would be much more accurate, perhaps acoustically-speaking the speakers are that further distance because of the room characteristics and just leave it?

3. Audsyssey did a great job on my subwoofer EQ. But it left it far more flat and subtle than I'd like. I've used REW+BFD before to calibrate my own in previous setups and I usually add a house curve and like to run the subs about +5 dB "hot". What's the best way to compensate for this? I assume I can't do a house curve. But how about making the sub +5 dB hot? I know I can turn up the subs volume control, but then I lose the ability to know how much I've added and go back to where I was if I wanted. I noticed there are TWO places where you can seemingly control the subwoofer output level... There is a "Subwoofer" adjust in the Audio menu. And there is a subwoofer Level in the Speakers (IIRC that's the place) menu. Is there any difference between these locations at all? For instance if I was to +5 dB in the Subwoofer Adjust area, is there any difference if I was to leave that at 0 and just add +5 dB in the Speaker Level menu? Perhaps the Subwoofer Adjust applies differently for each input, whereas the setting in the Levels menu applies globally to the inputs?

4. Audsyssey chose 60 hz as the crossover. It sounds good but I tend to prefer 80 hz. I know I can change this in the menus, but in doing so, does it then throw off the Audsyssey calibration or it internal automatically compensates?

5. Overall I am thrilled at how much better my room sounds with Audyssey engaged. I had Yamaha YPAO in their AVRs and it never seemed to help so Audyssey is far superior. I understand their is a Pro version. How much better is it than XT-32 and what's the primary advantages of the Pro version?

Thanks!!
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post #755 of 7273 Old 07-31-2016, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Hey guys - I'm a new owner of the Marantz 8802A and I have a few questions about Audyseey and some of the sound settings please.

1. When I ran Audsyeey it said my L/R (I only have a 2.1 setup at the moment) were out of phase, but had a disclaimer that even with the proper wiring it may still think that with some rooms). I double checked my wiring and its correct. I assume this is fairly normal if they have that disclaimer in there. My temporary set up is in a room that's far from ideal - 12 foot ceiling, windows all along a side wall and rear wall, fully open side of the room etc. Just curious what conditions can cause this and if its safe to ignore.

2. It has my distances quite wrong. It thinks my L/R are 2 feet further than they are. And it thinks my subwoofer is 10 feet further than it is. Should I manually fix these in them menu? Or is the Audyseey configuration all tied to this and if it thinks that's the distance that it needs for the EQ compensation just leave it as is? IOW while my overrides would be much more accurate, perhaps acoustically-speaking the speakers are that further distance because of the room characteristics and just leave it?

3. Audsyssey did a great job on my subwoofer EQ. But it left it far more flat and subtle than I'd like. I've used REW+BFD before to calibrate my own in previous setups and I usually add a house curve and like to run the subs about +5 dB "hot". What's the best way to compensate for this? I assume I can't do a house curve. But how about making the sub +5 dB hot? I know I can turn up the subs volume control, but then I lose the ability to know how much I've added and go back to where I was if I wanted. I noticed there are TWO places where you can seemingly control the subwoofer output level... There is a "Subwoofer" adjust in the Audio menu. And there is a subwoofer Level in the Speakers (IIRC that's the place) menu. Is there any difference between these locations at all? For instance if I was to +5 dB in the Subwoofer Adjust area, is there any difference if I was to leave that at 0 and just add +5 dB in the Speaker Level menu? Perhaps the Subwoofer Adjust applies differently for each input, whereas the setting in the Levels menu applies globally to the inputs?

4. Audsyssey chose 60 hz as the crossover. It sounds good but I tend to prefer 80 hz. I know I can change this in the menus, but in doing so, does it then throw off the Audsyssey calibration or it internal automatically compensates?

5. Overall I am thrilled at how much better my room sounds with Audyssey engaged. I had Yamaha YPAO in their AVRs and it never seemed to help so Audyssey is far superior. I understand their is a Pro version. How much better is it than XT-32 and what's the primary advantages of the Pro version?

Thanks!!
I can answer most of these questions. Be sure you're placing the mic at your main listening position and at ear height for the first calibration signals--the first set determines the distances and levels.

1. Concerning the out of phase reading, are you sure that your speakers are wired correctly INSIDE? In other words, you've matched + to + and - to -, but is one of the speakers wired wrong within itself? Try a stereo phase test signal (THX DVDs have them, for example, or you can play this youtube test signbal:
). That will tell you if your speakers are in phase. If they are in phase but Audyssey disagrees, ignore the Audyssey warning. The mic may be picking up reflections from the room that cause the error.

2. Leave the distance (delay) readings alone. Don't worry about the subwoofer being so far off--the "extra distance" is actually a correction for the delay caused by your AVR's bass management circuitry.

3. A lot of people like more bass than what Audyssey calibrates for. If you want more, then after calibration you can adjust the subwoofer trim upwards on your AVR; most people start with 3 dB if they are going to add bass. I don't have a Marantz, so I can't answer the question of which menu item you should use to adjust the subwoofer trim.

4. You can adjust the Audyssey-selected crossover higher if you like. You should not adjust it lower than what Audyssey recommends because Audyssey is not applying any correction to your response curve below its recommended crossover frequency.

5. The Pro version is a hardware and software kit that you buy, plus a license for each receiver on which you use it. The calibration is exactly the same resolution as Multi EQ XT32 but can be based on up to 32 measurements instead of a maximum of 8. The hardware includes an individually calibrated microphone, and you have the ability to "tweak" the target curves. I haven't heard a system that was calibrated using Pro, so I can't comment on how much better it is than XT32.
http://www.audyssey.com/technologies/multeq/multeq-pro

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post #756 of 7273 Old 07-31-2016, 02:04 PM
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To add just a little to the excellent post by Pbarach, the erroneous distance setting on your fronts is puzzling. Are they self powered? If they have their own amps, the internal delay could cause the distance difference, just as it does with the sub. But distance (timing) is not per se as important as correct trim setting, IMO. So, I would probably just leave them where they are unless something sounds off.

With respect to where to adjust the sub settings, I have never found a difference on where I adjust them with my Marantz, and the Audio Menu is easier. I recommend setting your sub gain high enough to put you deep into negative numbers post-calibration. I would suggest shooting for -10, or so. That will leave you lots of headroom to adjust upward in the AVR without exceeding about 0.0. The average adjustment is probably about +3 to +6db, but some people () adjust much more than that.

Most people on the thread who have had Pro, and who have compared it to just running XT-32, have concluded that it doesn't offer much additional benefit.

Regards,
Mike

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post #757 of 7273 Old 07-31-2016, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
Suggest you post specifics about each speaker make/model, level set by Audyssey vs your manual setup. Was mic/meter in same exact position for both measurements?
Please ignore. May be I had set MV to lower than 0dB.
I did that one more time and things look aligned.
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post #758 of 7273 Old 07-31-2016, 05:45 PM
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I am having a weird issue with my Denon 7200WA.
It has stopped reading the Audyssey mic.
It does detect the mic, but fails to read the chirps.
I tried another mic., to eliminate issue with the mic itself.
It's not the dust or any object in mic port, as it works for one round or bit more if you do microprocessor reset.
When it works, it gives error during calibration at random speaker (cable is not connected or too much noise in the room).
Then eventually it stops reading the mic again.
Yes, I know I may have to get it to the service, which I hate the most.
Looking for help or if anyone else encountered similar issue and found a fix.
For now, I have simply set my speakers in manual mode by level matching using REW SPL meter.
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post #759 of 7273 Old 07-31-2016, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
Feri was the one who drew the comment a week or so ago...."LOL Feri. After all these years you still keep trying to ask me about future developments. I can say that we are working on something very cool for 2016 release. It will make hard core Audyssey fans happy. And, no, we are not leaving the room correction business."
Was it revealed yet what is being worked on that you mentioned back in March?
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post #760 of 7273 Old 07-31-2016, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by pbarach View Post
I can answer most of these questions. Be sure you're placing the mic at your main listening position and at ear height for the first calibration signals--the first set determines the distances and levels.

1. Concerning the out of phase reading, are you sure that your speakers are wired correctly INSIDE? In other words, you've matched + to + and - to -, but is one of the speakers wired wrong within itself? Try a stereo phase test signal (THX DVDs have them, for example, or you can play this youtube test signbal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-kxtKGR2vY). That will tell you if your speakers are in phase. If they are in phase but Audyssey disagrees, ignore the Audyssey warning. The mic may be picking up reflections from the room that cause the error.
Yes I know what you mean. I'm 99.5% sure I didn't reverse the wires in the speaker cabinet and its a lot of work to remove the baffle from the cabinet and triple check so I am going to assume it is wired correctly inside. I did run the YouTube video through the system and it plays in / out of phase as expected (and not reversed). So it seems something about this room triggers that. My Yamaha YPAO (which with hindsight after my Audyssey results is far inferior) never complained about the phase. The room has a lot of reflections - dry wall ceiling 12' high, full side of room all windows, rear of room all windows, other side of room completely open into the next room. As mentioned this is just a temporary setup so I can listen to my speakers and test out the gear while the theater is being finished.

Quote:
2. Leave the distance (delay) readings alone. Don't worry about the subwoofer being so far off--the "extra distance" is actually a correction for the delay caused by your AVR's bass management circuitry.
Thanks. I'm not sure if its normal for the 8802a to add that much delay due to correction for its base management circuity but I'll ask in that thread.

Thank you!
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post #761 of 7273 Old 07-31-2016, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
To add just a little to the excellent post by Pbarach, the erroneous distance setting on your fronts is puzzling. Are they self powered? If they have their own amps, the internal delay could cause the distance difference, just as it does with the sub. But distance (timing) is not per se as important as correct trim setting, IMO. So, I would probably just leave them where they are unless something sounds off.
I'm not sure what you mean by self-powered, but if you mean do the speakers have an amp built in, the answer is no. The speakers are powered by an external amp.

Quote:
With respect to where to adjust the sub settings, I have never found a difference on where I adjust them with my Marantz, and the Audio Menu is easier. I recommend setting your sub gain high enough to put you deep into negative numbers post-calibration. I would suggest shooting for -10, or so. That will leave you lots of headroom to adjust upward in the AVR without exceeding about 0.0. The average adjustment is probably about +3 to +6db, but some people () adjust much more than that.
At the start of the Audyssey calibration it told me I needed to lower my subwoofer gain/volume control. I have a HSU VTF-2 MK3 and the knob is barely turned up past off to get to this point where it is near the 75 dB target it displays. When I tried to proceed with the sub too high before turning this control down, it wouldn't let me continue until I turned it down. This is a temporary sub. I will be using 4 HST-18 subs powered by a Speaker Power SP2-12000-DP. That may give me a bit more control.

Thank you for the help.
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post #762 of 7273 Old 08-01-2016, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by self-powered, but if you mean do the speakers have an amp built in, the answer is no. The speakers are powered by an external amp.



At the start of the Audyssey calibration it told me I needed to lower my subwoofer gain/volume control. I have a HSU VTF-2 MK3 and the knob is barely turned up past off to get to this point where it is near the 75 dB target it displays. When I tried to proceed with the sub too high before turning this control down, it wouldn't let me continue until I turned it down. This is a temporary sub. I will be using 4 HST-18 subs powered by a Speaker Power SP2-12000-DP. That may give me a bit more control.

Thank you for the help.

You are very welcome! Bogus phase warnings, and long distance settings for subs, are fairly common issues, and nothing to worry about. Distance anomalies with passive speakers like yours are less common, but still not something to worry about, in my opinion. (You were right. I was asking about speakers with built-in amplifiers.)

If your Marantz would not let you proceed until you lowered the gain on your sub to get to 75db, however, that is more troubling. Normally, you will have the option to skip level matching, and proceed with the calibration. In fact, many of us routinely set our subs at about 78db, or so, and then do a one-point calibration to find out where the trim level is. I typically shoot for about -11, or so, but try not to have trim settings of -12, because that is the bottom of the trim scale, and the actual trim setting might have been even lower.

Moving to the four 18" subs will be great, but FWIW, I don't think that this a subwoofer issue. If you are sure that your Marantz isn't giving you the option to move ahead with your calibration, until your sub gain is at 75db, then there is something wrong with your Audyssey software. I would double-check this with another Audyssey calibration, just to make sure, and if you still can't set your sub gain to about 78db, I would do a microprocessor reset. That is sometimes necessary with new units.

I'm really glad to hear that you like XT-32. Audyssey is, by most accounts, superior to YPAO, and particularly in the modal (low bass) region.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #763 of 7273 Old 08-01-2016, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Hey guys - I'm a new owner of the Marantz 8802A and I have a few questions about Audyseey and some of the sound settings please.

3. Audsyssey did a great job on my subwoofer EQ. But it left it far more flat and subtle than I'd like. I've used REW+BFD before to calibrate my own in previous setups and I usually add a house curve and like to run the subs about +5 dB "hot". What's the best way to compensate for this? I assume I can't do a house curve. But how about making the sub +5 dB hot? I know I can turn up the subs volume control, but then I lose the ability to know how much I've added and go back to where I was if I wanted. I noticed there are TWO places where you can seemingly control the subwoofer output level... There is a "Subwoofer" adjust in the Audio menu. And there is a subwoofer Level in the Speakers (IIRC that's the place) menu. Is there any difference between these locations at all? For instance if I was to +5 dB in the Subwoofer Adjust area, is there any difference if I was to leave that at 0 and just add +5 dB in the Speaker Level menu? Perhaps the Subwoofer Adjust applies differently for each input, whereas the setting in the Levels menu applies globally to the inputs?
You've gotten some great advice already, I just wanted to address these two things.

You could still add your house curve with the BFD (if you still have it) post-Audyssey. A lot of people use outboard sub EQ to tailor the response to their preference, nothing wrong with that at all.

On my Denon AVR, the sub level in the AUDIO menu is indeed input specific, so I always change it in the SPEAKERS>MANUAL>LEVELS menu which is global (as you correctly assumed).
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post #764 of 7273 Old 08-01-2016, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
You are very welcome! Bogus phase warnings, and long distance settings for subs, are fairly common issues, and nothing to worry about. Distance anomalies with passive speakers like yours are less common, but still not something to worry about, in my opinion. (You were right. I was asking about speakers with built-in amplifiers.)

If your Marantz would not let you proceed until you lowered the gain on your sub to get to 75db, however, that is more troubling. Normally, you will have the option to skip level matching, and proceed with the calibration. In fact, many of us routinely set our subs at about 78db, or so, and then do a one-point calibration to find out where the trim level is. I typically shoot for about -11, or so, but try not to have trim settings of -12, because that is the bottom of the trim scale, and the actual trim setting might have been even lower.

Moving to the four 18" subs will be great, but FWIW, I don't think that this a subwoofer issue. If you are sure that your Marantz isn't giving you the option to move ahead with your calibration, until your sub gain is at 75db, then there is something wrong with your Audyssey software. I would double-check this with another Audyssey calibration, just to make sure, and if you still can't set your sub gain to about 78db, I would do a microprocessor reset. That is sometimes necessary with new units.

I'm really glad to hear that you like XT-32. Audyssey is, by most accounts, superior to YPAO, and particularly in the modal (low bass) region.
Having the same Marantz model I can say there is an option to continue regardless of the sub gain UNLESS it is below a level that the MiC will pick up. Otherwise it will just warn you that your gain is higher than the 75db setting but you can still continue on with the measurement.

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post #765 of 7273 Old 08-01-2016, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by dlynch34 View Post
Having the same Marantz model I can say there is an option to continue regardless of the sub gain UNLESS it is below a level that the MiC will pick up. Otherwise it will just warn you that your gain is higher than the 75db setting but you can still continue on with the measurement.

Thanks! I believe that is the case with the earlier versions, as well. I have a 7008, and mine works the same way. I think it's possible that the OP missed the option to continue when his gain was above 75db. If not, something is wrong with his unit that, hopefully, a reset will correct.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #766 of 7273 Old 08-01-2016, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
I am having a weird issue with my Denon 7200WA.
It has stopped reading the Audyssey mic.
It does detect the mic, but fails to read the chirps.
I tried another mic., to eliminate issue with the mic itself.
It's not the dust or any object in mic port, as it works for one round or bit more if you do microprocessor reset.
When it works, it gives error during calibration at random speaker (cable is not connected or too much noise in the room).
Then eventually it stops reading the mic again.
Yes, I know I may have to get it to the service, which I hate the most.
Looking for help or if anyone else encountered similar issue and found a fix.
For now, I have simply set my speakers in manual mode by level matching using REW SPL meter.
Hi,

I must have missed this post earlier. Sorry to hear about your issue with the Denon. The only thing that I could think to try (since you have already tried a different mic) would be multiple, consecutive, microprocessor resets. Before sending the unit off for servicing, I would try several resets. It might not work, but at least you will have excluded another trouble-shooting option.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
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post #767 of 7273 Old 08-01-2016, 03:32 PM
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Thanks. I'm not sure if its normal for the 8802a to add that much delay due to correction for its base management circuity but I'll ask in that thread.

Thank you!
I'm betting it's normal. Here, you see owners of Onkyo, Denon, and Marantz equipment reporting the same long delays on their Audyssey subwoofer calibration.

Denon x4400h, Samsung LED 1080p TV, B&W 704 mains, two M&K subwoofers, Oppo 103, Roku 2, Darbeevision, etc.
Headphone system: Focal Clear, Sennheiser HD600, AKG K702, Hifiman HE-400i, Marantz HD-DAC1, Denon DVD-3910
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post #768 of 7273 Old 08-01-2016, 03:52 PM
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You are very welcome! Bogus phase warnings, and long distance settings for subs, are fairly common issues, and nothing to worry about. Distance anomalies with passive speakers like yours are less common, but still not something to worry about, in my opinion. (You were right. I was asking about speakers with built-in amplifiers.)

If your Marantz would not let you proceed until you lowered the gain on your sub to get to 75db, however, that is more troubling. Normally, you will have the option to skip level matching, and proceed with the calibration. In fact, many of us routinely set our subs at about 78db, or so, and then do a one-point calibration to find out where the trim level is. I typically shoot for about -11, or so, but try not to have trim settings of -12, because that is the bottom of the trim scale, and the actual trim setting might have been even lower.

Moving to the four 18" subs will be great, but FWIW, I don't think that this a subwoofer issue. If you are sure that your Marantz isn't giving you the option to move ahead with your calibration, until your sub gain is at 75db, then there is something wrong with your Audyssey software. I would double-check this with another Audyssey calibration, just to make sure, and if you still can't set your sub gain to about 78db, I would do a microprocessor reset. That is sometimes necessary with new units.

I'm really glad to hear that you like XT-32. Audyssey is, by most accounts, superior to YPAO, and particularly in the modal (low bass) region.
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
You've gotten some great advice already, I just wanted to address these two things.

You could still add your house curve with the BFD (if you still have it) post-Audyssey. A lot of people use outboard sub EQ to tailor the response to their preference, nothing wrong with that at all.

On my Denon AVR, the sub level in the AUDIO menu is indeed input specific, so I always change it in the SPEAKERS>MANUAL>LEVELS menu which is global (as you correctly assumed).
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Having the same Marantz model I can say there is an option to continue regardless of the sub gain UNLESS it is below a level that the MiC will pick up. Otherwise it will just warn you that your gain is higher than the 75db setting but you can still continue on with the measurement.
Thanks guys. I may have just misread the warning screen. As I recall I thought it said something like the sub volume control was too loud and that I could either adjust it to be at 75 dB or continue WITHOUT it EQ'ing the sub. So I do recall there was an option to skip the adjustment of the sub volume, but that in doing so it would not eq the sub. Maybe it was because it was way too high (in its opinion). Like I think it measured something like 83 dB initially. So perhaps it will let you continue with it above 75 dB, but not too much above it? I'll play around with it to see. I may back up my first calibration before experimenting because the system sounds so amazing right now (with a +5 dB boost in the Subwoofer Level Adjust setting ON) that I don't want to mess it up.

Question 1: Because I did the EQ with my sub volume set to 75 dB in the beginning, what is the harm in the set up I have now, versus if I had done it with a higher level. Note that even with my volume knob set so it read 75 dB prior to Audyssey, it still lowered it to -1.5 dB in the process.

Question 2: Has anyone compared the results of the EQ for the subwoofer as done by XT-32, compared to what they can achieve with REW auto filters and the BFD? Putting the house curve aside, does REW+BFD still provide a better result, or are they effectively the same? I haven't measured what Audyssey did yet, but it sure sounds darn near perfect and blends beautifully with the L/R in my 2.1 setup. Bass notes in music never sounded so good!

Question 3: Eventually I'll have 4 HST-18 subs connected. I will be able to level or gain match them and treat it as one channel as far as the 8802a is concerned. Will Audyssey be able to calibrate all 4 subs acting as one sub just as well, or is it not suited for that? I've been considering a QSC system with professional manual calibration but after seeing how great it did with one sub I wonder if the pro calibration may not add much additional benefit (but has a lot of cost). Also I love the idea of being able to tweak and play which XT32 will enable me to do but I'll be a lot less able to mess with the pro's setup in concern I'd mess something up.

Thanks for the excellent help and suggestions guys!! I am really loving the 8802a. Just amazed at the sound quality of music which is what I've been testing with so far (no movies, yet). Also I've been equally amazed at how much better things sound with Audyssey enabled - and the dialog is so much more intelligible it is really hard to believe. I had hear people say that is an expected result of a good EQ but didn't expect it to make that much of a difference.
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post #769 of 7273 Old 08-01-2016, 03:58 PM
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Hi,

I must have missed this post earlier. Sorry to hear about your issue with the Denon. The only thing that I could think to try (since you have already tried a different mic) would be multiple, consecutive, microprocessor resets. Before sending the unit off for servicing, I would try several resets. It might not work, but at least you will have excluded another trouble-shooting option.

Regards,
Mike
Thanks Mike.
When I said reset, those were 5 in a row.
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post #770 of 7273 Old 08-01-2016, 04:19 PM
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Thanks Mike.
When I said reset, those were 5 in a row.

You are welcome, but that's a bummer!

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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Thanks guys. I may have just misread the warning screen. As I recall I thought it said something like the sub volume control was too loud and that I could either adjust it to be at 75 dB or continue WITHOUT it EQ'ing the sub. So I do recall there was an option to skip the adjustment of the sub volume, but that in doing so it would not eq the sub. Maybe it was because it was way too high (in its opinion). Like I think it measured something like 83 dB initially. So perhaps it will let you continue with it above 75 dB, but not too much above it? I'll play around with it to see. I may back up my first calibration before experimenting because the system sounds so amazing right now (with a +5 dB boost in the Subwoofer Level Adjust setting ON) that I don't want to mess it up.

Question 1: Because I did the EQ with my sub volume set to 75 dB in the beginning, what is the harm in the set up I have now, versus if I had done it with a higher level. Note that even with my volume knob set so it read 75 dB prior to Audyssey, it still lowered it to -1.5 dB in the process.

Question 2: Has anyone compared the results of the EQ for the subwoofer as done by XT-32, compared to what they can achieve with REW auto filters and the BFD? Putting the house curve aside, does REW+BFD still provide a better result, or are they effectively the same? I haven't measured what Audyssey did yet, but it sure sounds darn near perfect and blends beautifully with the L/R in my 2.1 setup. Bass notes in music never sounded so good!

Question 3: Eventually I'll have 4 HST-18 subs connected. I will be able to level or gain match them and treat it as one channel as far as the 8802a is concerned. Will Audyssey be able to calibrate all 4 subs acting as one sub just as well, or is it not suited for that? I've been considering a QSC system with professional manual calibration but after seeing how great it did with one sub I wonder if the pro calibration may not add much additional benefit (but has a lot of cost). Also I love the idea of being able to tweak and play which XT32 will enable me to do but I'll be a lot less able to mess with the pro's setup in concern I'd mess something up.

Thanks for the excellent help and suggestions guys!! I am really loving the 8802a. Just amazed at the sound quality of music which is what I've been testing with so far (no movies, yet). Also I've been equally amazed at how much better things sound with Audyssey enabled - and the dialog is so much more intelligible it is really hard to believe. I had hear people say that is an expected result of a good EQ but didn't expect it to make that much of a difference.
I will get things started, but I imagine that several people will respond to your multi-part question. First, the option to continue simply skips level matching. Audyssey still EQ's the sub(s) in exactly the same way, whether your level is set at 75db or 80db. Audyssey's objective is to make your sub(s) play at exactly the same volume, at the MLP, as the other speakers in your system. But that is not necessarily our objective. Not if we want to add a house curve by increasing the sub trim.

In essence, it is good practice to keep the sub trim in your AVR at 0.0, or less. That is particularly the case as you approach Reference MV's. So, a good rule of thumb is to keep the AVR trim at or below 0.0 at MV's of about -10 or higher. That makes the sub amp do the work and prevents your sub(s) from distorting. But to make that work, you have to start in solidly negative trim numbers, so you will have room to add trim without exceeding 0.0. And to make that work, you typically have to increase the sub gain, so that it registers higher than 75db. There is a section in the FAQ that discusses the reasons in more detail, but that's a quick synopsis.

I assume that your Marantz has two subwoofer inputs, and when you run four subs, you will split them into two pairs using Y-adapters. If so, Audyssey will set levels and distances for each pair separately, but will treat all four subs as one, and will EQ them as one.

Incidentally, don't worry too much about messing up your good current sound by running additional Audyssey calibrations. If you are like most of us, you will eventually run a number of calibrations, anyway. The key is to keep a log of your preferred mic pattern, with measured mic positions, so that you can always repeat a calibration that you really like. Most of us find that we can improve the sound quality in our rooms with experimentation in mic patterns, and practice in our calibration technique.
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #772 of 7273 Old 08-01-2016, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Thanks guys. I may have just misread the warning screen. As I recall I thought it said something like the sub volume control was too loud and that I could either adjust it to be at 75 dB or continue WITHOUT it EQ'ing the sub. So I do recall there was an option to skip the adjustment of the sub volume, but that in doing so it would not eq the sub. Maybe it was because it was way too high (in its opinion). Like I think it measured something like 83 dB initially. So perhaps it will let you continue with it above 75 dB, but not too much above it? I'll play around with it to see. I may back up my first calibration before experimenting because the system sounds so amazing right now (with a +5 dB boost in the Subwoofer Level Adjust setting ON) that I don't want to mess it up.

Question 1: Because I did the EQ with my sub volume set to 75 dB in the beginning, what is the harm in the set up I have now, versus if I had done it with a higher level. Note that even with my volume knob set so it read 75 dB prior to Audyssey, it still lowered it to -1.5 dB in the process.

Question 2: Has anyone compared the results of the EQ for the subwoofer as done by XT-32, compared to what they can achieve with REW auto filters and the BFD? Putting the house curve aside, does REW+BFD still provide a better result, or are they effectively the same? I haven't measured what Audyssey did yet, but it sure sounds darn near perfect and blends beautifully with the L/R in my 2.1 setup. Bass notes in music never sounded so good!

Question 3: Eventually I'll have 4 HST-18 subs connected. I will be able to level or gain match them and treat it as one channel as far as the 8802a is concerned. Will Audyssey be able to calibrate all 4 subs acting as one sub just as well, or is it not suited for that? I've been considering a QSC system with professional manual calibration but after seeing how great it did with one sub I wonder if the pro calibration may not add much additional benefit (but has a lot of cost). Also I love the idea of being able to tweak and play which XT32 will enable me to do but I'll be a lot less able to mess with the pro's setup in concern I'd mess something up.

Thanks for the excellent help and suggestions guys!! I am really loving the 8802a. Just amazed at the sound quality of music which is what I've been testing with so far (no movies, yet). Also I've been equally amazed at how much better things sound with Audyssey enabled - and the dialog is so much more intelligible it is really hard to believe. I had hear people say that is an expected result of a good EQ but didn't expect it to make that much of a difference.
1) No harm at all as long as you are staying under 0dB on the sub trim. Going over 0dB you can risk clipping the sub's amp.

2) There is absolutely no way you could match what XT32 does with any (affordable) outboard sub EQ. XT32 has literally hundreds of filters in the sub region alone, no way to match that with a BFD, MiniDSP, etc.

3a) If you plan on having all 4 subs equidistant to the MLP, then XT32 will do a fine job EQ'ing them all as one. If you, like most of us, need to have differing distances between the subs and the MLP, you will need some way to time-align them. If each sub in each pair is equidistant (i.e. 2 in front corners, 2 in back corners), you can just use the built in SubEQ HT (calibrating each pair as a single sub). If you're setup will be more complicated than that, you will need a MiniDSP or similar. Does the BFD have the ability to set delays for 4 separate channels??

3b) A lot of folks who used to have Audyssey Pro have abandoned it for XT32*. 'Nuff said.

*Not necessarily because XT32 is "better" than Pro, but Pro doesn't offer enough of an advantage (if any) in sound quality to justify the cost/hassle.

Now, go play some blu rays and let us know what you think.
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post #773 of 7273 Old 08-01-2016, 06:59 PM
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You are welcome, but that's a bummer!
Yeah, I know...
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I will get things started, but I imagine that several people will respond to your multi-part question. First, the option to continue simply skips level matching. Audyssey still EQ's the sub(s) in exactly the same way, whether your level is set at 75db or 80db. Audyssey's objective is to make your sub(s) play at exactly the same volume, at the MLP, as the other speakers in your system. But that is not necessarily our objective. Not if we want to add a house curve by increasing the sub trim.
Thanks. The house curves I've used in the past have had an intentional unevenness. For instance I like to run like +5 dB at 20 Hz and then tail that toward + 0 dB as it gets to 80 Hz. I assume there's no way to do that without adding a BFD or equivalent.

Quote:
In essence, it is good practice to keep the sub trim in your AVR at 0.0, or less. That is particularly the case as you approach Reference MV's. So, a good rule of thumb is to keep the AVR trim at or below 0.0 at MV's of about -10 or higher. That makes the sub amp do the work and prevents your sub(s) from distorting. But to make that work, you have to start in solidly negative trim numbers, so you will have room to add trim without exceeding 0.0. And to make that work, you typically have to increase the sub gain, so that it registers higher than 75db. There is a section in the FAQ that discusses the reasons in more detail, but that's a quick synopsis.
Great. I missed the fact that there's a FAQ. Will check it out. Sounds like maybe I should start with the sub at around 85 dB and that afterward I just need to trim it down so it is still hot but not +10 dB hot.

Quote:
I assume that your Marantz has two subwoofer inputs, and when you run four subs, you will split them into two pairs using Y-adapters. If so, Audyssey will set levels and distances for each pair separately, but will treat all four subs as one, and will EQ them as one.
I think you meant to say outputs not inputs? Yes I have the 8802a which has two subwoofer outputs. See my reply to Alan P next for a bit more on the subject.
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post #775 of 7273 Old 08-01-2016, 10:17 PM
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1) No harm at all as long as you are staying under 0dB on the sub trim. Going over 0dB you can risk clipping the sub's amp.
Understood. I will rerun it with the sub at like 85 dB or whatever seems to make sense after I read the FAQ tomorrow.

Quote:
2) There is absolutely no way you could match what XT32 does with any (affordable) outboard sub EQ. XT32 has literally hundreds of filters in the sub region alone, no way to match that with a BFD, MiniDSP, etc.
Hundreds? Wow that is impressive. I was wondering actually if there was a way to see a list of all filters it has applied to the various regions. I suppose not? I'd also be curious what it has EQ'ed in the ranges for the mid range and tweeters. I assume that it will take care of correcting for a little loss from using an acoustically transparent screen too?

[quote]
3a) If you plan on having all 4 subs equidistant to the MLP, then XT32 will do a fine job EQ'ing them all as one. If you, like most of us, need to have differing distances between the subs and the MLP, you will need some way to time-align them. If each sub in each pair is equidistant (i.e. 2 in front corners, 2 in back corners), you can just use the built in SubEQ HT (calibrating each pair as a single sub). If you're setup will be more complicated than that, you will need a MiniDSP or similar. Does the BFD have the ability to set delays for 4 separate channels??

[quote]
Perfect. I will have 4 of the HST-18's so it probably helps also that they are all 4 the same exact sub. It will be powered with a Speaker Power SP2-12000-DP that should ship later this week. My subs each have dual 2ohm voice coils creating a 4 ohm load each. They will then be wired in parallel to the Speaker Power amp, creating a 2 ohm load. That will deliver 3000 watts to each of the 4 subs according to the manufacturer. I assume that connecting these with a Y and using both sub outputs wouldn't change any of that?

Yes my distances play very well into using the 2 subwoofer outputs. My front two subs are in the baffle wall. They are just about equidistant to the MLP - one is about 4" further. I assume that makes not material difference. Then the other two 18" subs are located - are you ready for this? Inside the rear wall. . Its a double studded wall and the isolation shell was extended into two cavities designed to be isolated and hold the HST 18 cabinets. This oughta be interesting. Those two rear subs are also equidistant to the MLP. I assume I should level or gain the front two to each other and the rear two to each other - I will check the FAQ to see if that is covered.

As for alternatives, I had been considering a QSC Core 110f with a professional calibrator coming in. I'm sure he would do an amazing job. The downside to this besides the cost of the QSC and calibration is that I want the ability to tweak and understand what was done - with the pro calibrating it I wouldn't have his equipment and I would essentially be stuck with his calibration without the ability to tweak (unless done so by ear). On the plus side, I would have preset calibrations for when I'm the only one in the room at the MLP, a preset when its just a few of us in the front row, and a preset when the second row is full too. With Audyseey its just one calibration and that's it. Bummer. Some may say to just calibrate for all seats and leave it, but 90+% of the time I'll be the only one in the room and I'm quite sure a calibration for the MLP only will result in something better than a full seat calibration, as measured at the MLP.

The other alternative is to use the MiniDSP 88A with Dirac. Its been several months since I've followed the various threads, but it seemed the overall consensus as I read it favored Dirac Live. Plus with the 88A I would have the ability to use multiple presets for the various room seating configurations.

All that said, after my limited experience with XT32 in my temporary living room set up while theater is being finish, I'm rethinking the need for QSC and professional calibration. Or at least I may hold off and see what Audyseey can do in my room first, then go to another solution if I'm not totally satisfied.

Quote:
Now, go play some blu rays and let us know what you think.
Wait - we are supposed to play movies and listen to music with this - not just for test signals? What's the fun in that?

As I may have mentioned in this thread, I'm building a 9.4.6 Atmos room with professional designed acoustical plan and treatments. Should be done around the end of the month. In the meantime I have a 2.1 setup in my living room just so I can enjoy some music in my new speakers. It sounds incredible at the moment, with Audyseey off/on being the difference of good-sounding vs amazing sounding.

Thanks again to you and everyone for all the wonderful help and support!
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post #776 of 7273 Old 08-02-2016, 01:33 AM
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...
I assume that it will take care of correcting for a little loss from using an acoustically transparent screen too?
We have a acoustically transparent Seymour screen with the center channel behind it. Our LF and RF speakers are to either side of the screen. All the tweeters and midranges are identical ("timbre matters!"). If anything, the Audyssey corrected sound from the center channel, after it comes through the screen, is smoother than that coming from the toed in R & L speakers! Just a little ("timbre matters," but it's hard to get all the channels to sound exactly the same). There is no treble loss after coming through the AT screen after running Audyssey.

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We have a acoustically transparent Seymour screen with the center channel behind it. Our LF and RF speakers are to either side of the screen. All the tweeters and midranges are identical ("timbre matters!"). If anything, the Audyssey corrected sound from the center channel, after it comes through the screen, is smoother than that coming from the toed in R & L speakers! Just a little ("timber matters," but it's hard to get all the channels to sound exactly the same). There is no treble loss after coming through the AT screen after running Audyssey.
That's great to hear there is no timber lost with the speaker playing through the screen. Which screen material is it that you're using? How far away is your speaker sitting behind the screen? I will have the Center Stage XD and will have the speaker about 4-5" or so behind it (or a bit more if I can manage it).
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post #778 of 7273 Old 08-02-2016, 06:19 AM
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I'm about 3/4 of the way through the Audyssey FAQ. Its been very helpful and indeed answers a lot of questions I had after first using it (too bad I hadn't seen the FAQ before my first go-round with Audyssey).

So far the most significant thing I've learned is this:

Quote:
"Taking measurements in one spot guarantees bad sound. The algorithm needs to collect data from around the listening area in order to work correctly. One should not think of mic locations as being the same as seating locations. The recommended pattern for measurements is shown here. Whether you have one listener or many, all available measurements should be taken to provide the algorithm with the needed data."
I had totally misunderstood the purpose of the multiple mic locations. Exactly like as quoted above, I thought that the purpose of the multiple mic locations was to try and optimize for each seat. Since I only care about the single MLP seat, I stopped Audyssey after measuring just the first position. With hindsight, I clearly see that I should have measured multiple positions. I read in the FAQ that even if you only care about one spot, then take a group of measurements closer to that spot, but at least take the full group of measures. I had thought that by taking multiple measures Audyssey would try to make it sound good in multiple seats, providing an averaged response which could improve all seats but in exchange not an optimal EQ for the MLP.

Has anyone done comparisons of just the MLP vs all 8 measurements with XT-32? I suppose it is really hard to A/B the difference by ear (given there is no way to quickly switch back and forth), but would likely show up via measurements in REW. Currently I still have my one seat EQ in the 8802a. I will take a full frequency sweep measure with REW soon and use it as a baseline. Then I'll do another calibration with all 8 mic positions, somewhat clustered around the MLP and see if I can hear any difference and what the REW measurements show as being different. Should be an interesting experiment.

On a related note - how well can you go by REW measurements (UMIK-1) in the mid and upper range to understand what your ears are hearing in one configuration versus another? I ask because a calibrator once told me that you can't really go by such measurements to understand what you are hearing, because our ears hear quite differently than the way microphones "hear"...?
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
We have a acoustically transparent Seymour screen with the center channel behind it. Our LF and RF speakers are to either side of the screen. All the tweeters and midranges are identical ("timbre matters!"). If anything, the Audyssey corrected sound from the center channel, after it comes through the screen, is smoother than that coming from the toed in R & L speakers! Just a little ("timber matters," but it's hard to get all the channels to sound exactly the same). There is no treble loss after coming through the AT screen after running Audyssey.
Also I meant to ask - most importantly, can you notice a difference in the timber of your center speaker playing through the screen when you turn Audyssey on versus off? IOW you say there is no loss of timber from your center speaker, but I am wondering if that is because Audyssey is making a correction for that, or because the loss is so minimal anyway. From what I recall on the XD material the loss is minimal (but to me as an audiophile I certainly want to EQ that as best as possible). Thanks again!
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post #780 of 7273 Old 08-02-2016, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Understood. I will rerun it with the sub at like 85 dB or whatever seems to make sense after I read the FAQ tomorrow.



Hundreds? Wow that is impressive. I was wondering actually if there was a way to see a list of all filters it has applied to the various regions. I suppose not? I'd also be curious what it has EQ'ed in the ranges for the mid range and tweeters. I assume that it will take care of correcting for a little loss from using an acoustically transparent screen too?
Yup, 512 to be exact.



You can see a very crude graph of what Audyssey has done in terms of EQ in the AUDYSSEY menu...can't remember exactly where right now, but I'm sure you can find it. Just keep in mind, it is VERY crude and should not influence any decisions.


Quote:
Perfect. I will have 4 of the HST-18's so it probably helps also that they are all 4 the same exact sub. It will be powered with a Speaker Power SP2-12000-DP that should ship later this week. My subs each have dual 2ohm voice coils creating a 4 ohm load each. They will then be wired in parallel to the Speaker Power amp, creating a 2 ohm load. That will deliver 3000 watts to each of the 4 subs according to the manufacturer. I assume that connecting these with a Y and using both sub outputs wouldn't change any of that?
A y-splitter is exactly what you want for each pair of subs.


Quote:
Yes my distances play very well into using the 2 subwoofer outputs. My front two subs are in the baffle wall. They are just about equidistant to the MLP - one is about 4" further. I assume that makes not material difference. Then the other two 18" subs are located - are you ready for this? Inside the rear wall. . Its a double studded wall and the isolation shell was extended into two cavities designed to be isolated and hold the HST 18 cabinets. This oughta be interesting. Those two rear subs are also equidistant to the MLP. I assume I should level or gain the front two to each other and the rear two to each other - I will check the FAQ to see if that is covered.
That is going to be AWESOME!

No, 4" will make no difference at all.

Personally, I like to gain match all 4 of my subs. Gain matching, in case you aren't familiar (but I think you might be) means that all subs are outputting at the same level, not at the same SPL at the MLP. See this post from Craig John for a good explanation of how to gain match your subs.

However, if you don't want to move those huge beasts to the center of the room, you can do what I do; I place an SPL meter about an inch in front of the sub and adjust gain until I get about 68dB. Then, with all 4 subs playing, this should come out to ~77-78dB.


Quote:
As for alternatives, I had been considering a QSC Core 110f with a professional calibrator coming in. I'm sure he would do an amazing job. The downside to this besides the cost of the QSC and calibration is that I want the ability to tweak and understand what was done - with the pro calibrating it I wouldn't have his equipment and I would essentially be stuck with his calibration without the ability to tweak (unless done so by ear). On the plus side, I would have preset calibrations for when I'm the only one in the room at the MLP, a preset when its just a few of us in the front row, and a preset when the second row is full too. With Audyseey its just one calibration and that's it. Bummer. Some may say to just calibrate for all seats and leave it, but 90+% of the time I'll be the only one in the room and I'm quite sure a calibration for the MLP only will result in something better than a full seat calibration, as measured at the MLP.
Knowing how to calibrate your own system is priceless IMO.
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