"Official" Audyssey thread Part II - Page 27 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #781 of 8045 Old 08-02-2016, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Yup, 512 to be exact.



You can see a very crude graph of what Audyssey has done in terms of EQ in the AUDYSSEY menu...can't remember exactly where right now, but I'm sure you can find it. Just keep in mind, it is VERY crude and should not influence any decisions.
Can you please point me more specifically to where that info is? I just looked in all menu branches under the Audyssey menu (under the Audio main menu option in the Setup) and don't see anything that shows a graph or other details about what it did.

Quote:
A y-splitter is exactly what you want for each pair of subs.
I'm thinking I may not need a Y splitter at least not where it may traditionally be used... Here's what I'm picturing - the SP2-12000-DP amp has two channel inputs (XLR). I would take sub1 out of the 8802a and into channel 1, and sub2 out and into channel 2. The amp was ordered with CH1+CH1 CH2+CH2 wiring. This means that the 4 conductor SpeakOn output from the amp will have sub 1 and 2 output on that one SpeakOn, and I wire those to my front subs, then do the same with sub 3 and 4 output coming from the Speakon output from channel 2. Make sense or is there something else/different I need to do?

Quote:
Personally, I like to gain match all 4 of my subs. Gain matching, in case you aren't familiar (but I think you might be) means that all subs are outputting at the same level, not at the same SPL at the MLP. See this post from Craig John for a good explanation of how to gain match your subs.

However, if you don't want to move those huge beasts to the center of the room, you can do what I do; I place an SPL meter about an inch in front of the sub and adjust gain until I get about 68dB. Then, with all 4 subs playing, this should come out to ~77-78dB.
Great, thanks. You answered the next pressing question on my mind which was how to gain match without trying to move 200+ pounds subs around a room, especially since I will not be able to get them out of the baffle wall too easily once installed... However I didn't quite understand your instructions - can you clarify? Since the amps output is the same and the subs are identical, in terms of drivers and cabinet cubic feet (4ft^3), would I be able to just make sure I set the output knob for channel 1 and 2 on the sub amp identically and then the subs would be gain matched? The only thing that may throw that plan off is that the two in-wall HST-18 subs have a totally different cabinet design. The cubic feet are the same, but the cabinet is constructed much differently - instead of being mostly a cube like the front subs, the in-wall sub cabinets are as shallow as possible to fit the driver while being tall to make up the volume - I'm not sure if that, plus its location in the cubby vs baffle wall, impacts its output - or if that matters?

How are you getting from 68 dB to 77-78 dB with the 4 subs? My understanding is that the second sub adds + 3dB, and the next two subs (3 and 4) add an additional + 3dB to that, for a total of 6 dB compared to one sub. But in your example you added 9-10 dB?

OK so aside from that clarification, can you please take me through the overall process if you wouldn't mind? First measure one sub with all others disconnected and adjust amp gain until it reads 68 dB? Then turn that sub off and repeat for the next sub, and rinse and repeat for all 4 subs independently? And then together they should be about +10 dB? Sounds like I'm not fully understanding the procedure. Although in my case please keep in mind that I have one amp output channel that is split (within the amp wiring, as described above) and fed to two subs - so that pair of subs will play at or near the same volume and there's no way I can adjust one up or down. So I think what we're mainly talking about here is gain matching the front pair to the second pair, instead of each one to all 4 if that makes sense. Tho I'm sure your procedure is the same, just less steps since its two pairs of subs being matched instead of 4 individual, but I still don't understand the process.

Thank you!
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post #782 of 8045 Old 08-02-2016, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Can you please point me more specifically to where that info is? I just looked in all menu branches under the Audyssey menu (under the Audio main menu option in the Setup) and don't see anything that shows a graph or other details about what it did.
Hmmm...lemme see.

On my Denon 4520 it is under AUDYSSEY SETUP>CHECK RESULTS>EQUALIZERS.



Quote:
I'm thinking I may not need a Y splitter at least not where it may traditionally be used... Here's what I'm picturing - the SP2-12000-DP amp has two channel inputs (XLR). I would take sub1 out of the 8802a and into channel 1, and sub2 out and into channel 2. The amp was ordered with CH1+CH1 CH2+CH2 wiring. This means that the 4 conductor SpeakOn output from the amp will have sub 1 and 2 output on that one SpeakOn, and I wire those to my front subs, then do the same with sub 3 and 4 output coming from the Speakon output from channel 2. Make sense or is there something else/different I need to do?
I don't use external amps for my subs, but that sounds to me like it would work.


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Since the amps output is the same and the subs are identical, in terms of drivers and cabinet cubic feet (4ft^3), would I be able to just make sure I set the output knob for channel 1 and 2 on the sub amp identically and then the subs would be gain matched?
Theoretically, that should work.


Quote:
The only thing that may throw that plan off is that the two in-wall HST-18 subs have a totally different cabinet design. The cubic feet are the same, but the cabinet is constructed much differently - instead of being mostly a cube like the front subs, the in-wall sub cabinets are as shallow as possible to fit the driver while being tall to make up the volume - I'm not sure if that, plus its location in the cubby vs baffle wall, impacts its output - or if that matters?
Just set the amps all the same then double check your output from each sub individually afterwards to confirm.


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How are you getting from 68 dB to 77-78 dB with the 4 subs? My understanding is that the second sub adds + 3dB, and the next two subs (3 and 4) add an additional + 3dB to that, for a total of 6 dB compared to one sub. But in your example you added 9-10 dB?
Second sub will add 6dB, adding a second pair will add another 6dB. This is of course in a perfect world...since no room is perfect and the second pair of subs by necessity must be located further away, you can expect about a 3-4dB increase by adding the second pair. Make sure you get an increase in SPL when you add a sub (should be at least 3dB but can be up to 6dB), otherwise you are getting cancellations and have more work to do.


Quote:
OK so aside from that clarification, can you please take me through the overall process if you wouldn't mind? First measure one sub with all others disconnected and adjust amp gain until it reads 68 dB? Then turn that sub off and repeat for the next sub, and rinse and repeat for all 4 subs independently? And then together they should be about +10 dB? Sounds like I'm not fully understanding the procedure. Although in my case please keep in mind that I have one amp output channel that is split (within the amp wiring, as described above) and fed to two subs - so that pair of subs will play at or near the same volume and there's no way I can adjust one up or down. So I think what we're mainly talking about here is gain matching the front pair to the second pair, instead of each one to all 4 if that makes sense. Tho I'm sure your procedure is the same, just less steps since its two pairs of subs being matched instead of 4 individual, but I still don't understand the process.
Yes, you would essentially be gain matching by pair. I would still measure them individually just to confirm that each sub in each pair is outputting the same SPL....no reason they shouldn't be since they are being powered by the same amp channel, but better safe than sorry.
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post #783 of 8045 Old 08-02-2016, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Yup, 512 to be exact.



You can see a very crude graph of what Audyssey has done in terms of EQ in the AUDYSSEY menu...can't remember exactly where right now, but I'm sure you can find it. Just keep in mind, it is VERY crude and should not influence any decisions.




A y-splitter is exactly what you want for each pair of subs.




That is going to be AWESOME!

No, 4" will make no difference at all.

Personally, I like to gain match all 4 of my subs. Gain matching, in case you aren't familiar (but I think you might be) means that all subs are outputting at the same level, not at the same SPL at the MLP. See this post from Craig John for a good explanation of how to gain match your subs.

However, if you don't want to move those huge beasts to the center of the room, you can do what I do; I place an SPL meter about an inch in front of the sub and adjust gain until I get about 68dB. Then, with all 4 subs playing, this should come out to ~77-78dB.




Knowing how to calibrate your own system is priceless IMO.

Alan,

Just FWIW, these graphs have always been a little more confusing than helpful to most of us, partly because Chris K would never actually tell anyone how many filters were actually involved in the various versions. And some people tried very hard to get the number out of him.

The real number with XT-32 is probably at least in the tens of thousands. What the graph actually means is that XT-32 has 512 times as many satellite filters as XT. And 512 times as many sub filters, and so on down to either MultEQ, or the original 2EQ. But without knowing exactly how many filters those implementations started with, it is impossible to calculate how many the latest version has. A lot is a pretty good answer.

Regards,
Mike
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* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #784 of 8045 Old 08-02-2016, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Alan,

Just FWIW, these graphs have always been a little more confusing than helpful to most of us, partly because Chris K would never actually tell anyone how many filters were actually involved in the various versions. And some people tried very hard to get the number out of him.
Yeah, I'm aware...and why I warned the OP earlier to not put too much value on those graphs.


Quote:
The real number with XT-32 is probably at least in the tens of thousands. What the graph actually means is that XT-32 has 512 times as many satellite filters as XT. And 512 times as many sub filters, and so on down to either MultEQ, or the original 2EQ. But without knowing exactly how many filters those implementations started with, it is impossible to calculate how many the latest version has. A lot is a pretty good answer.
Ummm...yeah. Math has never been my strong suit. I see now that 2EQ="x". Duh!
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Allright so, XT32 calibration is making me mad lately. I have phase on sub set to 0. I run audyssey. I run REW to confirm results and i see subwoofer frequency response is a mess. I flip phase 180. I measure with REW again, looks good now, albeit a bit bumpy. So I rerun Audyssey, this time with sub phase at 180 to iron things out. And bloody thing messes it up again so now I have to flip phase to 0 so I could have flat bass response. What? Why? How?

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post #786 of 8045 Old 08-02-2016, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
Allright so, XT32 calibration is making me mad lately. I have phase on sub set to 0. I run audyssey. I run REW to confirm results and i see subwoofer frequency response is a mess. I flip phase 180. I measure with REW again, looks good now, albeit a bit bumpy. So I rerun Audyssey, this time with sub phase at 180 to iron things out. And bloody thing messes it up again so now I have to flip phase to 0 so I could have flat bass response. What? Why? How?
My humble advice to you donktard is to forget REW for the time being. Just run the Audyssey calibration and call it a day. REW can give you tricky results in the bass department, especially when only a single point measurement is made. No wonder you are seeing a mess!! Don't let REW fool you. Do the setup as per the Audyssey guide and enjoy.

But if you really insist on doing REW measurements, please make sure you do a multi-point measurement and average the results. It won't give you a clear picture on what Audyssey did for your system, just an approximantion.

Do your own listening tests after calibration. Probably best is to listen to bass heavy music you know very well.

Hope this helps.
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post #787 of 8045 Old 08-02-2016, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
Allright so, XT32 calibration is making me mad lately. I have phase on sub set to 0. I run audyssey. I run REW to confirm results and i see subwoofer frequency response is a mess. I flip phase 180. I measure with REW again, looks good now, albeit a bit bumpy. So I rerun Audyssey, this time with sub phase at 180 to iron things out. And bloody thing messes it up again so now I have to flip phase to 0 so I could have flat bass response. What? Why? How?
This is because Audyssey is getting the sub distance wrong. Audyssey never measures your sub(s) plus a main channel (FL, FR or CC) at the same time, and this is why it can never really get the phase relationship right between speaker/sub. This is not unusual at all, and the reason the Sub Distance Tweak exists.

That doc can be a bit intimidating, so I wrote up a more concise version.


Sub Distance Tweak, the Reader's Digest condensed version:

  • Measure CC+subs (REW HDMI CH3)
  • Add/subtract to the sub distance setting (both subs equally) in 1' increments
  • Re-measure
  • Repeat until you get the smoothest transition over the crossover
  • You can repeat the process with the L/R+sub, but will usually have to compromise the CC+subs to get them all fairly smooth (if you are primarily movies, balance the compromise in favor of CC+sub, if music the L/R+sub)
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post #788 of 8045 Old 08-02-2016, 02:10 PM
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My humble advice to you donktard is to forget REW for the time being. Just run the Audyssey calibration and call it a day.
I have to respectfully disagree with you here Feri.

Audyssey gets the phase relationship between speakers and sub(s) wrong more often than it gets it right. I highly recommend the sub distance tweak to anyone using Audyssey...especially if they already have the tools (REW).
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post #789 of 8045 Old 08-02-2016, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I have to respectfully disagree with you here Feri.

Audyssey gets the phase relationship between speakers and sub(s) wrong more often than it gets it right. I highly recommend the sub distance tweak to anyone using Audyssey...especially if they already have the tools (REW).
Vice-versa, I do always respect other opinion, even though I may have different thoughts on the same subject.

Alan, as you stated correctly in your previous post, Audyssey does nothing in the phase department since it calibrates each speaker (and sub) individually and there is no further process in the algorithm to do a combined measurement of sub and any of the satellites.

Belive it or not, I also did the sub distance tweak on my system many Moons ago and found no real audible improvement afterward. I think it relates to the behaviour of our human ears that might be a bit less sensitive to phase issues than to level issues, or in other words: more forgiving.

Another interesting comment came from Chris K. on this issue when he said the sub distance tweak may work, but only for one single point in space. A multi-point environment we live in may not really benefit from the sub distance tweak process, so I already returned my settings to what MultEQ set them originally.

YMMV.
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Another trim question:

Several posts have asked about the subwoofer trim, which is often set after Audyssey calibration to a negative number.
In my case, the sub is set by Audyssey to -3.5. I then raise it, as many do, up 3dB to its final position at -0.5 dB.

In reading the many posts on this subject, there is usually some mention about not wanting to raise the sub beyond 0.0 so that it won't run out of headroom. That got me wondering--

Audyssey sets my front towers at +1.5 and +2.5. I don't hear a problem (everything sounds darn great, as a matter of fact) but I thought I would ask:

Is there any problem having my front towers set at positive levels? Should I lower them back down to 0.0?

Thanks,
This thread has been tremendously helpful over the last month.
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Originally Posted by maestro50 View Post
Another trim question:

Several posts have asked about the subwoofer trim, which is often set after Audyssey calibration to a negative number.
In my case, the sub is set by Audyssey to -3.5. I then raise it, as many do, up 3dB to its final position at -0.5 dB.

In reading the many posts on this subject, there is usually some mention about not wanting to raise the sub beyond 0.0 so that it won't run out of headroom. That got me wondering--

Audyssey sets my front towers at +1.5 and +2.5. I don't hear a problem (everything sounds darn great, as a matter of fact) but I thought I would ask:

Is there any problem having my front towers set at positive levels? Should I lower them back down to 0.0?

Thanks,
This thread has been tremendously helpful over the last month.
Hi,

I have always thought that this is one of the most helpful threads on the forum too. It surely has helped me over the years. Positive numbers for your speaker trim levels are just fine. Audyssey is just making sure that they all play at the same volume at the MLP.

With subs, though, it's a little more complicated because of the external sub amplifier. The reason for raising the sub gain high enough to stay in negative AVR trim numbers is to put the strain where it belongs--on the sub amp. Even there, in most cases staying in negative numbers is generally just a good precautionary measure unless you are exceeding -10 in MV. At some point, the sub(s) might begin to distort if you went too far into positive numbers with a high master volume.

But your speakers should be just fine wherever Audyssey set them.

Regards,
Mike

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post #792 of 8045 Old 08-02-2016, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Another interesting comment came from Chris K. on this issue when he said the sub distance tweak may work, but only for one single point in space. A multi-point environment we live in may not really benefit from the sub distance tweak process, so I already returned my settings to what MultEQ set them originally.

YMMV.
You make a good point here Feri. I have never done a multi-point measurement along with the distance tweak. I should really do that before I pretend like I know what I'm talking about.
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
My humble advice to you donktard is to forget REW for the time being. Just run the Audyssey calibration and call it a day. REW can give you tricky results in the bass department, especially when only a single point measurement is made. No wonder you are seeing a mess!! Don't let REW fool you. Do the setup as per the Audyssey guide and enjoy.

But if you really insist on doing REW measurements, please make sure you do a multi-point measurement and average the results. It won't give you a clear picture on what Audyssey did for your system, just an approximantion.

Do your own listening tests after calibration. Probably best is to listen to bass heavy music you know very well.

Hope this helps.
Nah, my REW measurements are very consistent. Seat to seat variaton (for 3 seats I got) is actually very acceptable for me, with middle seat being practically flat up to 100-120 Hz when calibrated properly. Also it is very audible, with phase flipped wrong bass is pretty much dead.

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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
This is because Audyssey is getting the sub distance wrong. Audyssey never measures your sub(s) plus a main channel (FL, FR or CC) at the same time, and this is why it can never really get the phase relationship right between speaker/sub. This is not unusual at all, and the reason the Sub Distance Tweak exists.

That doc can be a bit intimidating, so I wrote up a more concise version.


Sub Distance Tweak, the Reader's Digest condensed version:

  • Measure CC+subs (REW HDMI CH3)
  • Add/subtract to the sub distance setting (both subs equally) in 1' increments
  • Re-measure
  • Repeat until you get the smoothest transition over the crossover
  • You can repeat the process with the L/R+sub, but will usually have to compromise the CC+subs to get them all fairly smooth (if you are primarily movies, balance the compromise in favor of CC+sub, if music the L/R+sub)
Oh nice, thanks, I recalled that document was hiding here somewhere.
I will get on to it tomorrow, but just to quickly recap...I basically don't need to re-run audyssey again, but simply tweak sub distance properly?
And yeah, I need a nice transition between fronts and cc too because its 50% movies 50% music with me.

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post #794 of 8045 Old 08-02-2016, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maestro50 View Post
Another trim question:

Several posts have asked about the subwoofer trim, which is often set after Audyssey calibration to a negative number.
In my case, the sub is set by Audyssey to -3.5. I then raise it, as many do, up 3dB to its final position at -0.5 dB.

In reading the many posts on this subject, there is usually some mention about not wanting to raise the sub beyond 0.0 so that it won't run out of headroom. That got me wondering--

Audyssey sets my front towers at +1.5 and +2.5. I don't hear a problem (everything sounds darn great, as a matter of fact) but I thought I would ask:

Is there any problem having my front towers set at positive levels? Should I lower them back down to 0.0?

Thanks,
This thread has been tremendously helpful over the last month.
As always, Mike has given you a great answer. I just wanted to explain a bit further.

The reason you want to stay under 0dB on the sub trim is so you don't apply too much voltage from the AVR's sub out to the subwoofer's amplifier. Too much voltage and you could overdrive the input, clipping the sub's amp. This is how I understand it at least.

Now, you may be completely safe going over 0dB with your AVR depending on the output voltage of your particular sub out jack. However, without actually measuring the output voltage on your sub out, you won't know for sure. So, we always recommend to stay under 0dB just to be safe.
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
I will get on to it tomorrow, but just to quickly recap...I basically don't need to re-run audyssey again, but simply tweak sub distance properly?
Correct!


Quote:
And yeah, I need a nice transition between fronts and cc too because its 50% movies 50% music with me.
Sometimes compromises have to be made that favor either the mains or CC...you won't know until you perform the tweak.
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And yeah, I need a nice transition between fronts and cc too because its 50% movies 50% music with me.
I think some basic principles are being lost here. We are not calibrating for program materials, but for speaker-room interaction. And that has nothing to do with what we are listening to, right?
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I think some basic principles are being lost here. We are not calibrating for program materials, but for speaker-room interaction. And that has nothing to do with what we are listening to, right?
Honestly, there is a such a chaos between 100 and 400 Hz in my room that fixing that transition isn't even the biggest of my worries.

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post #798 of 8045 Old 08-02-2016, 04:01 PM
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I think some basic principles are being lost here. We are not calibrating for program materials, but for speaker-room interaction. And that has nothing to do with what we are listening to, right?
Feri,

When performing the sub distance tweak, usually you can't get the crossover transition smooth with both the CC and the mains...a compromise usually has to be made. That is what we are talking about here.

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post #799 of 8045 Old 08-02-2016, 04:01 PM
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Honestly, there is a such a chaos between 100 and 400 Hz in my room that fixing that transition isn't even the biggest of my worries.
Can we see a graph of said chaos??
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post #800 of 8045 Old 08-02-2016, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
Honestly, there is a such a chaos between 100 and 400 Hz in my room that fixing that transition isn't even the biggest of my worries.
Do you have any bass traps in your room? That 100 to 400Hz range sounds like a great candidate for room treatments.
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post #801 of 8045 Old 08-02-2016, 04:46 PM
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That's great to hear there is no timber lost with the speaker playing through the screen. Which screen material is it that you're using? How far away is your speaker sitting behind the screen? I will have the Center Stage XD and will have the speaker about 4-5" or so behind it (or a bit more if I can manage it).
It was the only Seymour AT fabric available in 2011, i.e., Center Stage XD. The speaker is about 1 foot, or a little less, behind the screen, and very slightly above seated ear height. An engineer at a major speaker company tested CS XD fabric for a mutual friend, and found a transmission loss of about 1 dB at 16K Hz without Audyssey. As I reported earlier, there is no loss at our place with Audyssey, even with black backing that Seymour provides (as an option) in case there is a shiny object behind the screen that would pick up the projector light.

We sit about 12 feet away, and we cannot see the fabric texture -- not a trace -- from there, even with the finest grained movie. We sometimes walk over to about 8 feet from the screen to focus, and we can barely see the fabric pattern (nearly none) from there.

I'd like to share my biases with you. I am a strong advocate of 'scope shaped screens, because of their immersive properties, and their fidelity to filmmakers' intentions. Most filmmakers select an aspect ratio to fit their conception of the movie. True widescreen movies have an image larger in area and a wider true width than letterbox on standard HDTV screens, in which 'scope occupies a ribbon like band across the screen with large blank spaces above and below the image. So called "widescreen" HDTV sets and projection screens, at 1.78:1, are narrower in aspect ratio than the narrowest of theatrical narrow screen images, except for the old 1.37:1 that was around before 1953, and the largely European 1.66:1) Our screen is 130" wide (not diagonal) and has an aspect ratio is 2.35 to 1, which matches CinemaScope for most of its lifespan, and matches 35 mm Panavision, until they changed to 2.39:1 (commonly known in theater and movie publications by its nickname of "2.40:1"). The difference 2.39 makes is easily absorbed by the black borders of the Seymour. The common 70 mm aspect ratios look good as well, with just about 1" of space to either side of the image for Todd-AO's and Panavision 70's 2.2:1. Even the outrageous aspect ratios of Ultra Panavision 70 and Camera 65 (a handful of classic films) look good, with a space at the top and bottom that is much easier to ignore than it would be if projected on a 16:9 (1.78:1) screen. Even Cinerama's simulated curved screen image of 2.89:1 (on BD "Smilebox") looks good, and sucks the viewer right in. I have counted 10 aspect ratios in all. There is no matching all of them, but 2.35:1 is very workable, IMO. And we thus avoid making big movies small, and small movies big, so to speak.

Our image, regardless of aspect ratio, is nice and bright, with the Panasonic projector 24 feet away. I should point out that we watch in total darkness, except for ambient light that bounces off the screen.

Seymour was very supportive when we bought our screen; Chris and I exchanged about 3 emails, discussing practically every aspect of image quality.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Can we see a graph of said chaos??
Sure, tomorrow, its too late now to make such noise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Do you have any bass traps in your room? That 100 to 400Hz range sounds like a great candidate for room treatments.
No, I have only treated early reflections. Having said that, I have posted a picture so you can see what it looks like. Response is worse on left speaker then on right one and I suspect that it is caused mostly by slanted ceiling right above it (which causes bunch of additional combing/SBIR issues in bass area). Unusual room shape doesn't help with treating room in a simple manner like rectangular room. I also don't have bass traps because my waterfall graph is pretty good despite of poor 100-400 Hz response.
Repositioning anything is not possible but I can try adding bass traps. I will probably make a dedicated HT room in 1-2 years, but until then, I am trying to make the most out of what I have.
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post #803 of 8045 Old 08-02-2016, 05:53 PM
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Also I meant to ask - most importantly, can you notice a difference in the timber of your center speaker playing through the screen when you turn Audyssey on versus off? IOW you say there is no loss of timber from your center speaker, but I am wondering if that is because Audyssey is making a correction for that, or because the loss is so minimal anyway. From what I recall on the XD material the loss is minimal (but to me as an audiophile I certainly want to EQ that as best as possible). Thanks again!
Yes, there is a noticeable difference between Audyssey OFF and Audyssey FLAT through the screen, but it is complicated, as is all this stuff. There is a definite, but small, loss of detail and balance with Audyssey OFF. With Audyssey FLAT and the screen in the way, the timber of the center sounds pretty much like the timbre of the R & L, which are not behind the screen. Also:
  • Our screen is electrically retractable. When I say "no loss" through the screen fabric, if I remember the old REW curves correctly, I mean that the response around 12K and 16 K are the same distance from "Flat" (i.e., Flat = 0dB at 1K) with NO Audyssey and the screen out of the way, and Audyssey FLAT with the screen down (in the way). That would imply that Audyssey corrections are compensating for the fabric being in the way, IMO.
  • By ear it is a little trickier, because of the other things Audyssey is doing. Audyssey is removing a sort of broad peak centered at 8K. That makes some of the high range a little less bright, but it sounds better that way. Since I'm calibrating Audyssey only with the screen down (in the way), Audyssey is raising the level above ~~12k a little. So, it is both raising and lowering the highs, as expected. As if that weren't enough, other than making many small changes across the spectrum with those hundreds of EQ points, Audyssey is eliminating a dip at ~~ 350 Hz, pulling down a double peak at ~~ 110 Hz and ~~ 150 Hz, and increasing the level below ~~ 42 Hz. These changes have a psychological effect on how I perceive the overall balance, and have an effect all the way up, IMO.

In any case, with the screen in the way, whenever I've switched back and forth between No Audyssey and Audyssey Flat, I've liked Audyssey Flat better. It's clearer, and more "free floating" (whatever that means). With harsh program material (some old, or badly mastered, movies), it is a little less harsh -- perhaps due to cutting the 8K peak -- yet the cymbals shimmer more (the boosting above 12K?).

As you've noticed by now, in my moderately treated room, for most movies, I prefer Audyssey Flat to Audyssey Reference. So do some others. For movies before about 1980, I sometimes use Audyssey Reference to filter out a little distortion in the highs.

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Regarding 2016-1017 Denon/Marantz AVR, is there any refinement (better accuracy for improved audio quality) in Audyssey XT32? (other than the mobile device addon to shape the curve)
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Sure, tomorrow, its too late now to make such noise.



No, I have only treated early reflections. Having said that, I have posted a picture so you can see what it looks like. Response is worse on left speaker then on right one and I suspect that it is caused mostly by slanted ceiling right above it (which causes bunch of additional combing/SBIR issues in bass area). Unusual room shape doesn't help with treating room in a simple manner like rectangular room. I also don't have bass traps because my waterfall graph is pretty good despite of poor 100-400 Hz response.
Repositioning anything is not possible but I can try adding bass traps. I will probably make a dedicated HT room in 1-2 years, but until then, I am trying to make the most out of what I have.

Hi,

The wood is attractive, but I think you are right that all the angles, and places where two walls meet are likely to generate distortion from standing waves collecting, or colliding. I think that bass traps would help a lot with the sound quality in your room, irrespective of measurements. And if you use broadband traps, they will provide some additional benefit with potential ringing in mid and high frequencies, as well.

I would start with a good corner trap in the corner where the Ultra is, just moving it away from the corner a little, and add other traps as you can. One of the nice things about this kind of room treatment is that it can travel with you to your next location, and almost every room will benefit from having bass traps. In my personal opinion, the use of bass traps can sometimes be even more desirable than treating early reflections.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
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post #806 of 8045 Old 08-03-2016, 06:26 PM
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Hi,

I must have missed this post earlier. Sorry to hear about your issue with the Denon. The only thing that I could think to try (since you have already tried a different mic) would be multiple, consecutive, microprocessor resets. Before sending the unit off for servicing, I would try several resets. It might not work, but at least you will have excluded another trouble-shooting option.

Regards,
Mike
The AVR will be shipped to service center this week end.
Need to find something to fill the gap (of 2 weeks at least)...
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post #807 of 8045 Old 08-04-2016, 07:38 AM
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The AVR will be shipped to service center this week end.
Need to find something to fill the gap (of 2 weeks at least)...
That's tough, but I'm with you. Being without both my music and movie/TV system for a period of at least two weeks would be very difficult. I wonder if there are places that would rent or loan AVR's? If not, I might have to pick-up something cheap at a pawn shop.

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Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #808 of 8045 Old 08-04-2016, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
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Feri,

When performing the sub distance tweak, usually you can't get the crossover transition smooth with both the CC and the mains...a compromise usually has to be made. That is what we are talking about here.

I hear you Alan, but what IS the best compromise? Is it CC for movies? Is it L&R for music? How about a concert BD? Is it a movie or music? Just thinking out loud!
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post #809 of 8045 Old 08-04-2016, 12:45 PM
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Wha? Someone can hear a "non-smooth" sub-to-CC/sub-to-L&R transition???

"The future is already here, it's just not evenly distributed." W. Gibson

"I like the future, I'm in it." F. Theater
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post #810 of 8045 Old 08-04-2016, 02:01 PM
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I hear you Alan, but what IS the best compromise? Is it CC for movies? Is it L&R for music? How about a concert BD? Is it a movie or music? Just thinking out loud!
It really comes down to preference. If you are mostly music, weight towards the mains...if mostly movies, weight towards the CC. Or, if you are like me and want to optimize the best you can for both, you split the difference.


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Wha? Someone can hear a "non-smooth" sub-to-CC/sub-to-L&R transition???
With my ears, on my system, in my room...I most certainly can.

Here is a pre/post distance tweak example with my mains + subs. Think you could hear that??


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