"Official" Audyssey thread Part II - Page 28 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #811 of 7273 Old 08-04-2016, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
It really comes down to preference. If you are mostly music, weight towards the mains...if mostly movies, weight towards the CC. Or, if you are like me and want to optimize the best you can for both, you split the difference.




With my ears, on my system, in my room...I most certainly can.

Here is a pre/post distance tweak example with my mains + subs. Think you could hear that??


Alan,

I saw you make a similar comment over on the PSA thread, regarding the transition from mains to subs with respect to certain music. You spoke, for instance, of sometimes hearing a slight lag in sound from the subs. I just happened to be reading along, and decided I didn't have a dog in the hunt.

But, FWIW, one of the reasons that I prefer to listen to music without my subs is for a similar reason. Music is where my hearing is the most acute, since I am typically listening to well-known acoustical instruments, playing primarily jazz and classical music, and which usually doesn't include synthesized sound, or of course, special audio effects. And it is also where my audio attention is the most focused, since I don't have video activity, dialogue, or story to compete for my attention.

I definitely believe that I get smoother transitions to bass frequencies, relying only on the internal crossovers within my speakers, and not on those crossovers, plus the external ones to my subs, as well. So, I do believe that there is something to what you are saying. I have never gotten involved in the controversy regarding whether some subs are quicker than others with respect to music. But whether it is a question of quickness of response, or an actual measurable issue at the crossover point, or both, is not clear to me.

And whether this is something that is easy to notice, or very difficult, or something that we get used to with our subs, and simply don't notice at all, I can't say. I can say that it's not something I notice at all when I switch to movies, add my subs, and bass manage my full-range speakers.

Regards,
Mike
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post #812 of 7273 Old 08-04-2016, 03:35 PM
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Alan, do you remember the distance change (before/after) to the sub to get those results?
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post #813 of 7273 Old 08-04-2016, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
It really comes down to preference. If you are mostly music, weight towards the mains...if mostly movies, weight towards the CC. Or, if you are like me and want to optimize the best you can for both, you split the difference.
Not sure Alan that I understand this "preference" thing. The system does not really know what is being played, right? Film or music, what is the difference? Both are electical signals fed into the system, noting more. IMHO, the key point should always be room-speaker interaction and our way of perception, regardless of what program material we are playing.


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With my ears, on my system, in my room...I most certainly can.

Here is a pre/post distance tweak example with my mains + subs. Think you could hear that??


My recurring question: is this a one point in space (probably at MLP) measurement or is it a multiple measurement with mic placed around the seating area and averaged in REW?

BTW, the green curve doesn't really look good from above 130 Hz.

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post #814 of 7273 Old 08-04-2016, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by D Bone View Post
Alan, do you remember the distance change (before/after) to the sub to get those results?
It's in the legend of the graph, but my labels aren't the clearest; 6.8' as set by Audyssey, 12.8' for the flattest response.
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post #815 of 7273 Old 08-04-2016, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Not sure Alan that I understand this "preference" thing. The system does not really know what is being played, right? Film or music, what is the difference? Both are electical signals fed into the system, noting more. IMHO, the key point should always be room-speaker interaction and our way of perception, regardless of what program material we are playing.
Agreed Feri, however, on a "movies only" (or "movies dominant") system, the CC is used much more than any other channel while in a "music only" (or "music dominant") system, the FL/FR are used more. The "preference" would be for which activity you prefer to optimize.

Luckily, on my system (and others I have seen post here), the sub distance setting that produces the flattest response with the CC just happens to be the same for the FL/FR, but that is more often than not, not the case.


Quote:
My recurring question: is this a one point in space (probably at MLP) measurement or is it a multiple measurement with mic placed around the seating area and averaged in REW?
I'll admit that this particular measurement is a single point. However, I have taken multi-point measurements around my MLP with little to no variation so I am fairly certain that this is a fair representation of my actual response.

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BTW, the green curve doesn't really look good from above 130 Hz.
You realize this is un-smoothed, right? But yes, I realize I still had some slight issues back when I took that measurement. I have since installed some bass traps and that region has cleaned up a bit. Attached is a graph of what it looks like more recently.
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post #816 of 7273 Old 08-04-2016, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Agreed Feri, however, on a "movies only" (or "movies dominant") system, the CC is used much more than any other channel while in a "music only" (or "music dominant") system, the FL/FR are used more. The "preference" would be for which activity you prefer to optimize.
Actually Alan, I'd prefer to optimize for room-speaker interaction, regardless of what is dominant or what is used "much more".

Quote:
Luckily, on my system (and others I have seen post here), the sub distance setting that produces the flattest response with the CC just happens to be the same for the FL/FR, but that is more often than not, not the case.
Hmm!

Quote:
I'll admit that this particular measurement is a single point. However, I have taken multi-point measurements around my MLP with little to no variation so I am fairly certain that this is a fair representation of my actual response.
Hmm, again!

Quote:
You realize this is un-smoothed, right? But yes, I realize I still had some slight issues back when I took that measurement. I have since installed some bass traps and that region has cleaned up a bit. Attached is a graph of what it looks like more recently.
Alan, your recent graph of mains + sub starts out at 90 dB at 20 Hz and then it ends at 73 dB at 200 Hz. That's a 17 dB difference. I'm starting to worry! Or should I not?
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post #817 of 7273 Old 08-04-2016, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Actually Alan, I'd prefer to optimize for room-speaker interaction, regardless of what is dominant or what is used "much more".
Well, Feri, if you had ever performed the distance tweak you would already know what I'm trying to convey here. Have you not?


Quote:
Alan, your recent graph of mains + sub starts out at 90 dB at 20 Hz and then it ends at 73 dB at 200 Hz. That's a 17 dB difference. I'm starting to worry! Or should I not?
As I've posted in this thread before, I am running my subs approximately 14dB hot*...and, like I've posted in this thread before, some might call me crazy.

*In a VERY large room, with DynEQ off of course.
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post #818 of 7273 Old 08-04-2016, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
As I've posted in this thread before, I am running my subs approximately 14dB hot*...and, like I've posted in this thread before, some might call me crazy.
I don't think it's accurate to say that some might call you crazy, although I am running +15db, with no DEQ myself, so you seem perfectly sane to me.
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post #819 of 7273 Old 08-04-2016, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Well, Feri, if you had ever performed the distance tweak you would already know what I'm trying to convey here. Have you not?
As commented about two Moons ago I did perform the tweak, found no real improvement, so I returned to the original settings. But that's just me!

Quote:
As I've posted in this thread before, I am running my subs approximately 14dB hot*...and, like I've posted in this thread before, some might call me crazy.

*In a VERY large room, with DynEQ off of course.
Running subs hot explains what I have experienced on your graphs. Enjoy!!

I will not comment on "DynEQ off, of course" as long as you are listening at 0 dB MV, where DEQ automatically turns itself off!!
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Nope, listening (usually) at -10MV.

When I was using DynEQ, I had the subs +8dB. At -10MV, DynEQ adds 6dB of boost. Since I prefer how the system sounds without DynEQ, I just manually added the same boost that DynEQ was adding at my preferred listening level.
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post #821 of 7273 Old 08-04-2016, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Nope, listening (usually) at -10MV.

When I was using DynEQ, I had the subs +8dB. At -10MV, DynEQ adds 6dB of boost. Since I prefer how the system sounds without DynEQ, I just manually added the same boost that DynEQ was adding at my preferred listening level.
Alan, I'm gonna add something here that I'm sure you and many others who frequently visit this thread already know. This just as a reminder!

As you say DEQ adds 6 dB of perceptual boost at -10 dB MV with the purpose of restoring bass as per our ears characteristics is only one side of the story. DEQ actually is a much more sophisticated software.

It is a two-tier solution. On one hand it looks at the actual MV setting and when its lower than 0 dB it applies an electrical boost in order to flatten out perceptual bass response.

Then the second tier operation looks at the program material (in real time. i.e. on-the-fly) that is being played and as soft and loud parts follow, DEQ applies another compensation accordingly.

This is working so smoothly, its only gonna be apparent when taken away (read: DEQ off).

No other loudness compensation solution on the market I know of has the same feature of DEQ.
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This is working so smoothly, its only gonna be apparent when taken away (read: DEQ off).
And, IMO, it's very apparent when it is taken away...everything just sounds better, less "muddy", more "open", etc.
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I want to give a quick shout out to Chad. He came to my house today while on his tour in the DFW area. After calibrating my projector he setup my Denon AVR and the result is AMAZING! The sound in my 7.1 media room and my 5.1 family room kicks serious butt after Chad finished calibrating them. I highly recommend having him setup your audio to get the most out of it.
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
It really comes down to preference. If you are mostly music, weight towards the mains...if mostly movies, weight towards the CC. Or, if you are like me and want to optimize the best you can for both, you split the difference.




With my ears, on my system, in my room...I most certainly can.

Here is a pre/post distance tweak example with my mains + subs. Think you could hear that??


Alan - Indeed that is a HUGE difference. I saw your post about this and the procedure a couple days ago, please let me see if I have this right... So when using sub 1 and sub 2 outputs with the 8802A, Audyseey will calibrate each sub independently (or each group of subs gained matched and attached to sub 1 together and sub 2 together). But it does not look at how sub(s) 1 and sub(s) 2 interact. So the idea with the distance trick is that you use REW afterward to measure with all subs going, and with each remeasure, increase the distance by 1 foot for the sub out with the lowest distance and decrease the distance by 1 foot for the sub out with the highest distance, and remeasure. Rinse and repeat until you have the best looking graph.

Do I have this right? Thanks!
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I don't think it's accurate to say that some might call you crazy, although I am running +15db, with no DEQ myself, so you seem perfectly sane to me.
And you both seem sane to me, as well. With no DEQ, I usually run the sub at 5 dB hot, but for a few movies, I push it up to 9 dB hot (or a bit more).
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And, IMO, it's very apparent when it is taken away...everything just sounds better, less "muddy", more "open", etc.
Exactly!
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post #827 of 7273 Old 08-05-2016, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Alan - Indeed that is a HUGE difference. I saw your post about this and the procedure a couple days ago, please let me see if I have this right... So when using sub 1 and sub 2 outputs with the 8802A, Audyseey will calibrate each sub independently (or each group of subs gained matched and attached to sub 1 together and sub 2 together). But it does not look at how sub(s) 1 and sub(s) 2 interact. So the idea with the distance trick is that you use REW afterward to measure with all subs going, and with each remeasure, increase the distance by 1 foot for the sub out with the lowest distance and decrease the distance by 1 foot for the sub out with the highest distance, and remeasure. Rinse and repeat until you have the best looking graph.

Do I have this right? Thanks!
There is one aspect of this that you may already understand, but I think it bears repeating just in case. When you say that Audyssey calibrates each sub independently (or each group of subs on Sub 1 or Sub 2), the only calibration performed is for distance (timing) and level. The more important EQing of the subs occurs for all of the subs as a group, however they are configured. I am pretty sure that you know that from earlier discussions, but for others who may be reading this, it's an important distinction, particularly when people mix dissimilar subs and then try to rely on Audyssey, even with SubEQ, to EQ them separately.

Regards,
Mike
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I am certain I would hear it if I saw the graph first.

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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Here is a pre/post distance tweak example with my mains + subs. Think you could hear that??



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post #829 of 7273 Old 08-05-2016, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Alan - Indeed that is a HUGE difference. I saw your post about this and the procedure a couple days ago, please let me see if I have this right... So when using sub 1 and sub 2 outputs with the 8802A, Audyseey will calibrate each sub independently (or each group of subs gained matched and attached to sub 1 together and sub 2 together). But it does not look at how sub(s) 1 and sub(s) 2 interact. So the idea with the distance trick is that you use REW afterward to measure with all subs going, and with each remeasure, increase the distance by 1 foot for the sub out with the lowest distance and decrease the distance by 1 foot for the sub out with the highest distance, and remeasure. Rinse and repeat until you have the best looking graph.

Do I have this right? Thanks!
The sub distance tweak is performed in order to get the sub(s) in-phase with the mains and/or CC, not with each other (although that is an important step as well). Audyssey usually does a good job at getting the relative phase (delay) between the 2 subs right...not so much when it comes to the speakers. This is because Audyssey never measures subs+speakers together so it doesn't even have the information needed to do so.


Again, here is my short version:


  • Measure CC+subs (REW HDMI CH3)
  • Add/subtract to the sub distance setting (both subs equally) in 1' increments
  • Re-measure
  • Repeat until you get the smoothest transition over the crossover
  • You can repeat the process with the L/R+sub, but will usually have to compromise the CC+subs to get them all fairly smooth (if you are primarily movies, balance the compromise in favor of CC+sub, if music the L/R+sub)
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post #830 of 7273 Old 08-05-2016, 09:44 AM
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I am certain I would hear it if I saw the graph first.
A 60hz wide, -25dB dip is very audible with or without seeing the graph. If this is inaudible to you, maybe you're in the wrong hobby.
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And in the wrong thread when subs +15dB. Audyssey FUBAR thread more appropriate.
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post #832 of 7273 Old 08-05-2016, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
  • You can repeat the process with the L/R+sub, but will usually have to compromise the CC+subs to get them all fairly smooth (if you are primarily movies, balance the compromise in favor of CC+sub, if music the L/R+sub)
Alan, I still don't get it why you are insisting on separate procedures for movies and for music. Just re-read the subwoofer tweak PDF and there is no mentioning of the above. So, again: why the distinction? The HT system itself has no idea what is being played, right? This is all about a specific speaker-room interaction that has nothing to do with the "type" of program material being played! It will work (or not) even with measurement test signals!

Care to shed some light on your thougths? Thx.
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Can we see a graph of said chaos??
I am about to post graphs but not sure which smoothing to use for left and right and which frequency range?
Also, whats the procedure nowadays for waterfall graphs? If I recall correctly, someone around here mentioned that there should be 40 dB difference from top to bottom of graph at SPL we measured. So, if we measure at 85dB, top would be 85, bottom 45, and also time range 450 ms?

EDIT: I suppose also that measurement should be taken about 40dB or more above noise floor?

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Hi,

The wood is attractive, but I think you are right that all the angles, and places where two walls meet are likely to generate distortion from standing waves collecting, or colliding. I think that bass traps would help a lot with the sound quality in your room, irrespective of measurements. And if you use broadband traps, they will provide some additional benefit with potential ringing in mid and high frequencies, as well.

I would start with a good corner trap in the corner where the Ultra is, just moving it away from the corner a little, and add other traps as you can. One of the nice things about this kind of room treatment is that it can travel with you to your next location, and almost every room will benefit from having bass traps. In my personal opinion, the use of bass traps can sometimes be even more desirable than treating early reflections.

Regards,
Mike
I tweaked sub distance today, made significant improvement. I have attached my last measurement. Red line is center channel with final sub tweak and blue line is me adding 4 broadband panels on right side reflection of center channel. It is actually effectively 2x 8" broadband traps. I ran 135 Hz tone with SPL meter fixed at MLP and ran with panels around the room until I gained some SPL there. Coincidentally, I have put all those panels in same place Ethan Winer suggested. His suggestion was basically to put them symetrically to panels on other side of room regardless that they actually stand on floor about 6 feet from side wall (and couch)
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Alan, I still don't get it why you are insisting on separate procedures for movies and for music. Just re-read the subwoofer tweak PDF and there is no mentioning of the above. So, again: why the distinction? The HT system itself has no idea what is being played, right? This is all about a specific speaker-room interaction that has nothing to do with the "type" of program material being played! It will work (or not) even with measurement test signals!

Care to shed some light on your thougths? Thx.
You are misunderstanding his point. Its not about type of material played but about speakers that play material.
If you are watching primarily movies then make sub-tweak with center channel because thats where most important content comes from. In that case it may be possible that crossover transition between sub and mains may not be smoothest.
If you are listening primarily to music then make sub-tweak with left and right channel because, again, thats where ALL of the content comes from. In this case it could be possible that crossover transition between sub and center may not be smoothest.

You can even imagine it in a much more dramatic way. Imagine you have two speakers at various positions in room and a subwoofer. You listen to your content only on one speaker + subwoofer at a time.
If you do subtweak for speaker No1, then crossover transition for speaker No2 could be sub-optimal (pun intended ). If you do sub-tweak for speaker No2, then crossover between speaker No1 and sub will be probably pretty bad.

Ideally, you could do best sub-tweak with center, then best one with fronts, memorize both distance numbers and simply switch between them if you listen to surround/stereo content.

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post #835 of 7273 Old 08-05-2016, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
You are misunderstanding his point. Its not about type of material played but about speakers that play material.
If you are watching primarily movies then make sub-tweak with center channel because thats where most important content comes from. In that case it may be possible that crossover transition between sub and mains may not be smoothest.
If you are listening primarily to music then make sub-tweak with left and right channel because, again, thats where ALL of the content comes from. In this case it could be possible that crossover transition between sub and center may not be smoothest.

Ummm, yeah...what donktard said.

And what I basically said just a few posts up.
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post #836 of 7273 Old 08-05-2016, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donktard View Post
You are misunderstanding his point. Its not about type of material played but about speakers that play material.
If you are watching primarily movies then make sub-tweak with center channel because thats where most important content comes from. In that case it may be possible that crossover transition between sub and mains may not be smoothest.
If you are listening primarily to music then make sub-tweak with left and right channel because, again, thats where ALL of the content comes from. In this case it could be possible that crossover transition between sub and center may not be smoothest.

You can even imagine it in a much more dramatic way. Imagine you have two speakers at various positions in room and a subwoofer. You listen to your content only on one speaker + subwoofer at a time.
If you do subtweak for speaker No1, then crossover transition for speaker No2 could be sub-optimal (pun intended ). If you do sub-tweak for speaker No2, then crossover between speaker No1 and sub will be probably pretty bad.

Ideally, you could do best sub-tweak with center, then best one with fronts, memorize both distance numbers and simply switch between them if you listen to surround/stereo content.
This all above is plain wrong, sorry donktard. In a surround sound system you have a lot of speakers that may (or may not) interact well with the sub(s) at the crossover splice all around in a multi-seat environment. Program material doesn't matter in this case. Full stop. Hope we can get an end to spreading out wrong information. Please!

P.s. What do you think of music in a movie?
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post #837 of 7273 Old 08-05-2016, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
I am about to post graphs but not sure which smoothing to use for left and right and which frequency range?
You got it right...for sub graphs, no smoothing and 20hz-300hz. You can change the lower limit to your sub's -3dB point though so we can see how low you can go.


Quote:
Also, whats the procedure nowadays for waterfall graphs? If I recall correctly, someone around here mentioned that there should be 40 dB difference from top to bottom of graph at SPL we measured. So, if we measure at 85dB, top would be 85, bottom 45, and also time range 450 ms?
I believe that is correct.

Quote:
EDIT: I suppose also that measurement should be taken about 40dB or more above noise floor?
Don't think it matters as long as you are showing a 40dB difference.

Personally, I think the spectrogram is almost a more useful tool for looking at ringing.


Quote:
I tweaked sub distance today, made significant improvement. I have attached my last measurement. Red line is center channel with final sub tweak and blue line is me adding 4 broadband panels on right side reflection of center channel.
Looks like the traps cleaned it up a bit from 120-160hz for sure, good job there.

I'm not really seeing the "chaos from 100-400hz" you were talking about earlier. Sure, it looks a little ragged over ~150hz, but that's pretty much normal. Once you get above the modal region, you should apply smoothing to better represent what you can actually hear. Either use Variable or 1/6th above the sub frequencies.

I would expect to see the bass response a bit more flat higher up though. Where is your crossover set? It seem like you are dropping significantly from 40-100hz, then the response starts to slowly rise again to 300hz. Can we see the same measurement but with Audyssey off?

I hope Feri or Gary J don't see how hot you're running your subs! You may incur their wrath.


EDIT: Since we are now getting into graph interpretation, it may be best to move this discussion to the REW thread or your own thread.

Last edited by Alan P; 08-05-2016 at 04:56 PM.
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post #838 of 7273 Old 08-05-2016, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
This all above is plain wrong, sorry donktard. In a surround sound system you have a lot of speakers that may (or may not) interact well with the sub(s) at the crossover splice all around in a multi-seat environment. Program material doesn't matter in this case. Full stop. Hope we can get an end to spreading out wrong information. Please!

P.s. What do you think of music in a movie?
Feri,

We all know that you place ultimate trust in Audyssey and it can do no wrong in your eyes...but some of us don't. While we appreciate all that Audyssey does right, we realize it's flaws and prefer to get that last ounce of performance out of our system. That is what the distance tweak (among others) is all about.

In terms of the distance tweak, program material does matter, it can matter a lot (just ask any of the 2 channel purists ).


Please answer these two questions:

If you had a music only system and the tools to do so, why on earth would you not tweak the sub distance to optimize the splice between sub(s) and mains?

If you had a movie only system and the tools to do so, why on earth would you not tweak the sub distance to optimize the splice between CC and mains?
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post #839 of 7273 Old 08-05-2016, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donktard View Post
I am about to post graphs but not sure which smoothing to use for left and right and which frequency range?
Also, whats the procedure nowadays for waterfall graphs? If I recall correctly, someone around here mentioned that there should be 40 dB difference from top to bottom of graph at SPL we measured. So, if we measure at 85dB, top would be 85, bottom 45, and also time range 450 ms?

EDIT: I suppose also that measurement should be taken about 40dB or more above noise floor?

I tweaked sub distance today, made significant improvement. I have attached my last measurement. Red line is center channel with final sub tweak and blue line is me adding 4 broadband panels on right side reflection of center channel. It is actually effectively 2x 8" broadband traps. I ran 135 Hz tone with SPL meter fixed at MLP and ran with panels around the room until I gained some SPL there. Coincidentally, I have put all those panels in same place Ethan Winer suggested. His suggestion was basically to put them symetrically to panels on other side of room regardless that they actually stand on floor about 6 feet from side wall (and couch)
I'm with Alan on this one. I don't really see anything chaotic here, but I am also puzzled by the drop-off above about 40Hz. The Ultra should be pretty flat all the way up to 120Hz or so, almost irrespective of crossover. But out of curiosity, where is your CC crossover set? I would also be curious to see the graph with your fronts included. Does that help at all from about 40hz up?

Ethan is obviously a great source of information, but I do have one thought on traps. They typically work best when they are open-back panels (that means one or more very large holes are cut out of the plywood backing), and can be situated with an air pocket behind them (typically of 4" to 6"). That works better than simply doubling their thickness, and is another reason why corners work well. You just put one across a corner and you already have an air pocket behind the panel. You still get the broadband benefits, but may pick-up some lower frequency benefit, as well. But with that said, I'm not going to argue traps, or trap locations, with Ethan.
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #840 of 7273 Old 08-05-2016, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Feri,

We all know that you place ultimate trust in Audyssey and it can do no wrong in your eyes...but some of us don't. While we appreciate all that Audyssey does right, we realize it's flaws and prefer to get that last ounce of performance out of our system. That is what the distance tweak (among others) is all about.

In terms of the distance tweak, program material does matter, it can matter a lot (just ask any of the 2 channel purists ).
Alan, will all due respect, I think you didn't really answer my question, right? HOW does program material matter? HT system does not know what is being played. But I think I'm repeating myself, again and again!


Quote:
Please answer these two questions:

If you had a music only system and the tools to do so, why on earth would you not tweak the sub distance to optimize the splice between sub(s) and mains?

If you had a movie only system and the tools to do so, why on earth would you not tweak the sub distance to optimize the splice between CC and mains?
I think I already answered this question! No difference between source material that the system can (or can not) recognize!!!!!!!

Anything from hereon is pure speculation, or preference, or even placebo. The distinction of music and movies has nothing to do with Audyssey, eh? Let's try to think out of the box. May we?
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