"Official" Audyssey thread Part II - Page 280 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #8371 of 8400 Old 05-17-2020, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post
So, if I understand you correct, with a "normal" Audyssey run on the receiver, not the app, on Reference we get the MRC, and with Flat MRC is deactivated, correct ?
Correct, at least as I understand it. The "FLAT" curve gets rid of both the "crossover dip" (around 2k or 3k or whatever), as well as the high end roll-off.

The app editor doesn't actually let me pick "FLAT" (unless I'm missing it). It lets you pick from two different high end roll-offs (slower/ligher, maybe -2dB, and a second more significant looking -6dBish rolloff), and regardless of which high-end-rolloff you want, you can pick to enable or disable MCR. But if you want o switch over to the "FLAT" curve, you send those results over to your AVR from the app editor and then manually change your receiver from "Reference" to "Flat" for that input.

I generally prefer "Reference curve with lighter (-2dB-ish) rolloff and no MCR for "good metal dome tweeters and horns", and "FLAT" for my RAAL ribbon tweeters.
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post #8372 of 8400 Old 05-17-2020, 07:36 AM
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Maybe this has nothing to do with Audyssey, but why can I not alter the manual EQ on my Denon X4500H when I have Audyssey active ?
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post #8373 of 8400 Old 05-17-2020, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post
So, if I understand you correct, with a "normal" Audyssey run on the receiver, not the app, on Reference we get the MRC, and with Flat MRC is deactivated, correct ?
Edit - see mthomas response below.

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post #8374 of 8400 Old 05-17-2020, 09:20 AM
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@CBdicX you can't, it's either manual EQ or Audyssey.

You could use the tone controls for treble and bass after running Audyssey though.

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post #8375 of 8400 Old 05-17-2020, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbz06 View Post
No

When running through the AVR, both Reference and Flat have MRC enabled and non-defeatable. The only difference is the rolloff of high frequencies. The Reference is equivalent to Target 1 the app while Flat is flat.

If you want MRC disabled for Flat and or Reference (both 1 and 2), the app is the only way.

That's how it has been explained many times before.

Hi,

There is always a lot of misinformation floating around on AVS, so sometimes it is difficult to know what is really factual and what is not.

I'm sorry, but what you have read elsewhere about Flat and MRC is not correct! Audyssey Flat, either through your AVR or otherwise, means exactly what the name suggests. It is as flat a frequency response as Audyssey is able to get it, with nothing added or subtracted. So, the mid-range compensation (MRC) feature is not engaged when you set your AVR to Flat.

Both the Audyssey FAQ, which was started in 2012, and the Guide, which was started in 2016, and which is linked in my signature, contain the correct information on this subject.

Regards,
Mike
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post #8376 of 8400 Old 05-17-2020, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

There is always a lot of misinformation floating around on AVS, so sometimes it is difficult to know what is really factual and what is not.

I'm sorry, but what you have read elsewhere about Flat and MRC is not correct! Audyssey Flat, either through your AVR or otherwise, means exactly what the name suggests. It is as flat a frequency response as Audyssey is able to get it, with nothing added or subtracted. So, the mid-range compensation (MRC) feature is not engaged when you set your AVR to Flat.

Both the Audyssey FAQ, which was started in 2012, and the Guide, which was started in 2016, and which is linked in my signature, contain the correct information on this subject.

Regards,
Mike
Ugh, well that's annoying and embarrassing. I edited my post. And I'll update my notes

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post #8377 of 8400 Old 05-17-2020, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

There is always a lot of misinformation floating around on AVS, so sometimes it is difficult to know what is really factual and what is not.

I'm sorry, but what you have read elsewhere about Flat and MRC is not correct! Audyssey Flat, either through your AVR or otherwise, means exactly what the name suggests. It is as flat a frequency response as Audyssey is able to get it, with nothing added or subtracted. So, the mid-range compensation (MRC) feature is not engaged when you set your AVR to Flat.

Both the Audyssey FAQ, which was started in 2012, and the Guide, which was started in 2016, and which is linked in my signature, contain the correct information on this subject.

Regards,
Mike
Hi Mike, thanks for explaining

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post #8378 of 8400 Old 05-20-2020, 05:18 AM
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Loudness after Audyssey calibration

Transformers- The Fallen intro
75dB Average, Max SPL at 114dB using Android SOUND METER app via Huawei Nova 2i. Does that sound about right ?

EDIT: Volume at 0dB

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post #8379 of 8400 Old 05-20-2020, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by qguy View Post
... Does that sound about right ?
Yep, but it does depend on the master volume position. Sit back, relax and enjoy the movie.
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post #8380 of 8400 Old 05-20-2020, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post
Yep, but it does depend on the master volume position. Sit back, relax and enjoy the movie.
0dB
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post #8381 of 8400 Old 05-20-2020, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qguy View Post
Transformers- The Fallen intro
75dB Average, Max SPL at 114dB using Android SOUND METER app via Huawei Nova 2i. Does that sound about right ?

EDIT: Volume at 0dB

Hi,

There really isn't a right volume to listen at. There is only what you like. But, it's very difficult to say whether those numbers are "right" or not, even at a theoretical level. At a master volume level of 0.0, the nominal average volume of a 5.1 movie might be about 85dB, with potential peaks of 105dB for the regular channels, and 115dB for the LFE channel. Those numbers constitute the Dolby/THX Reference standard for 5.1 movies.

The problem is that film makers may not use an average volume level of 85dB. The actual average could be either higher or lower than that. Think of the overall volume difference (not just the bass difference) between a light romantic comedy and a heavy action thriller. But, even for action movies and blockbusters the overall average volume level can vary widely.

And, the dynamic peaks can also vary widely in both volume and in frequency. Some movies may have a lot of dramatic peaks in volume, and some may have only a few. Think of the difference between A Quiet Place as an example of one extreme, and contrast that with something like Overlord, or Batman Versus Superman, which had many loud peaks in volume.

The overall volume level, and the magnitude of bass peaks, are not just an issue with respect to different movies, but they are also an issue with respect to different theatrical releases of the same movie. The DVD version may differ from the Blu-Ray version, and both of them may differ from the Atmos version, and all of them can differ from a streaming version.

As long as your HT system is properly calibrated by Audyssey, we have to rely on our volume levels to be in appropriate balance with each other, and that the system is approximately calibrated to Reference. Then, we just pick the master volume level, and the amount of bass that sounds right to us for the particular movie or program that we are watching at the time. And, most of us won't use the same master volume level for something like Dunkirk that we will for some other movies.

@GIEGAR gave you a very concise answer to your question, when he suggested that you just relax and enjoy the movie. It will probably be pretty hard to find a movie that exactly conforms to the Dolby/THX Reference numbers cited in the first paragraph. And, it would be very difficult to measure an overall average volume level for an entire movie, even if you really wanted to. Most people just pick the dialogue level that sounds right to them, and work from there.

Film mixers and directors don't typically try to measure the overall average volume level of a movie either. They just use the overall volume levels which sound right to them, at particular points in the movie. They do try to not exceed peak volumes of 105dB/115dB, but that's about it. I hope this explanation helps!

Regards,
Mike

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post #8382 of 8400 Old 05-21-2020, 01:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qguy View Post
Transformers- The Fallen intro
75dB Average, Max SPL at 114dB using Android SOUND METER app via Huawei Nova 2i. Does that sound about right ?

EDIT: Volume at 0dB

Adjusting the dialogue to a level you think sounds like natural conversation, using the Main Volume Control, is a good approach, IMO. If the soundtrack needs to have a great deal of dynamic range (more than usual), the mixers may record the dialogue a little low, so if you adjust the dialogue to your normal level by ear, the peak levels will be higher.
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post #8383 of 8400 Old 05-21-2020, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
Adjusting the dialogue to a level you think sounds like natural conversation, using the Main Volume Control, is a good approach, IMO. If the soundtrack needs to have a great deal of dynamic range (more than usual), the mixers may record the dialogue a little low, so if you adjust the dialogue to your normal level by ear, the peak levels will be higher.
Movies with too great a dynamic range for the comfort of listeners (or the neighbors) are tailor-made for Dynamic Volume (which is the only situation in which I use it). After turning on Dynamic Voluyme (and sometimes turning off Dynamic EQ after that if the bass or surrounds are too prominent), I adjust the master volume control on the AVR when dialogue is playing.
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post #8384 of 8400 Old 05-21-2020, 08:13 PM
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qguy, just out of curiosity, did you measure your SPL at "C"
or "A" weighting, and at "Fast" or "Slow?" For music, "C" weight and "Fast" is preferred.



Careful about these high levels in your speakers. Some will take it just fine; others will not. It depends on duration as well as SPL. Just like your ears (for which, see the chart at the end of this post).


As everyone is saying, the listener's preference trumps everything ...

That said, I will type IMO once below, because that's all this is.

The most important questions, IMO, are:
  1. Does the sound at this volume and Bass/Treble balance please me?
  2. Does it sound plausibly realistic in loudness and dynamics? That is, is it high fidelity to the imagined original (which is about all we can do)? I think filmmakers tend to mix at a volume that will resemble a live orchestra, and at least suggest live sound, even if thunder or explosions are a bit soft.. Movies are meant to be a notable experience, unlike channel surfing when bored. Some composers (Bernard Herrmann) opposed the filmmakers turning the music down or up, but said something like, "Where you want it loud, I'll write it loud; where you want it soft, I'll write it soft!" That way, he avoided the perils of what Leonard Bernstein called "Upper Dubbing, California."
  3. Closely related, does the sound have a good chance of resembling a composer's or the filmmakers' intentions, as to emotional content, dynamics, etc.?
Dynamic Volume fails at numbers 2 and 3. Yes, I'd use it if I had a sleeping baby (or adult) or thin apartment walls.

THX recommends an SPL about 5 to 7 dB below Reference for a room the size of mine (big-ish). For a 12' x 15' room with an 8' ceiling, they recommend 9 dB below Reference. One reason for this is that early reflections, particularly specular, rather than diffuse, ones can be interpreted by the brain as loudness. So can distortion. The peaks THX/Dolby specifies for a large theater (105 dB, 115 dB for subwoofers) are very short, particularly the ones that are above about 80 Hz. A midrange peak at these lofty levels might be super short -- maybe 20ms to 300ms, about 1/3 of a second -- and would never be fully registered by an SPL meter set for "slow." Longer peaks tend to sound louder, but are usually softer (one of the delightful surprises one gets using an SPL meter).

But your preference rules.


[img]



[img]
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post #8385 of 8400 Old 05-21-2020, 08:13 PM
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Using the app if I boost the subwoofer curve +6db would that be close to dynamic eq as far as bass response, or should I go up to +10?
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post #8386 of 8400 Old 05-22-2020, 10:48 AM
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I installed my new DIY sub build yesterday, so i ran audyssey and now Audyssey FLAT no longer outputs audio. I did microprocessor reset and still no audio. L/R bypass, Reference and off output audio but not Flat, Anyone ever experience this?
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post #8387 of 8400 Old 05-22-2020, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy.Alexander View Post
I installed my new DIY sub build yesterday, so i ran audyssey and now Audyssey FLAT no longer outputs audio. I did microprocessor reset and still no audio. L/R bypass, Reference and off output audio but not Flat, Anyone ever experience this?

No, have not experienced this. How does this correlate with your new DIY sub?
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post #8388 of 8400 Old 05-22-2020, 12:29 PM
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No, have not experienced this. How does this correlate with your new DIY sub?

It dosent, I had to rerun audyssey because of it and that's when I noticed is all im saying,
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post #8389 of 8400 Old 05-22-2020, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Remy.Alexander View Post
It dosent, I had to rerun audyssey because of it and that's when I noticed is all im saying,

Very strange phenomenon you are experiencing! Try to do a microprocessor reset 4-5 times in a row. Sometimes it helps to resolve a glitch in the software. Report back please.
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post #8390 of 8400 Old 05-22-2020, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy.Alexander View Post
I installed my new DIY sub build yesterday, so i ran audyssey and now Audyssey FLAT no longer outputs audio. I did microprocessor reset and still no audio. L/R bypass, Reference and off output audio but not Flat, Anyone ever experience this?
Did you run it through the AVR or via the app? I've had it with the app before, and to fix it I set the curve to reference in the AVR, and then reuploaded the curve from the app. You should then be able to select Flag in the Audyssey menu.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
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post #8391 of 8400 Old 05-22-2020, 02:24 PM
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Did you run it through the AVR or via the app? I've had it with the app before, and to fix it I set the curve to reference in the AVR, and then reuploaded the curve from the app. You should then be able to select Flag in the Audyssey menu.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

I used the app- as it was the only way i knew how to shut off midrange compensation lol ill give it another shot. I re-uploaded my file already not sure whats up but ill try re uploading and resetting a few times
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post #8392 of 8400 Old 05-22-2020, 04:51 PM
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It's a bug in the app causing "Flat" data to not get uploaded. I've encountered this a few times, and every time repeating the upload brought the curve back.
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post #8393 of 8400 Old 05-22-2020, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by logan456 View Post
Using the app if I boost the subwoofer curve +6db would that be close to dynamic eq as far as bass response, or should I go up to +10?
There's a very in-depth section regarding DEQ in the link below. Read through that so you understand how it works and what it does, because the short answer is "no it's not that simple".

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...rences.html#VA
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post #8394 of 8400 Old 05-23-2020, 10:47 PM
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[QUOTE=logan456;59687976]Using the app if I boost the subwoofer curve +6db would that be close to dynamic eq as far as bass response, or should I go up to +10?[/QUOTE



The purpose of Dynamic EQ (DEQ) is to compensate for the human hearing loss in the bass (and slighty, in the treble) at low volumes, therefore it depends on the position of the volume control. At - 20 dB on the main volume control, I think DEQ gives you about + 9 dB at the bottom (20 Hz, 30 Hz), BUT you will get a different amount of boost at other settings of the main volume control. And it is even more complicated than that -- do see the reference pbz06 gave you at

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...rences.html#VA written by Mike Thomas.


And now for something completely different. Regardless of how DEQ works, there are a variety of preferred room curves researchers have put out. They often involve a substantial boost in the bass (maybe 7 or 8 dB), and some of them involve a slight roll-off in the treble. The bass boost may be partly due to honest human preference, or be because boosted bass sounds "flat" to the majority of people in test audiences, or partly due to current recording practices (especially with Rock/Pop/Metal) which too often impose a cut in the bass, to protect cheap speakers, or to avoid generating modulation distortion in the selfsame cheap speakers, or as part of "the loudness wars" -- less bass means that the recording level can be higher, making one's company's CDs seem more robust, exciting and "dynamic," even though they have less dynamic range. The current state of the popular recording industry (excepting movies, which are usually fine) is best described as "polymorphous perverse."



I start with Audyssey FLAT, and impose about +9 dB at the bottom, and leave it FLAT at the top.


Here are some preferred room "house" curves:
[img]
[img]
[img]
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post #8395 of 8400 Old 05-24-2020, 08:32 AM
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Please help me with an Audyssey problem?

I have a Denon AVR-X4400H and am trying to use the app version of Audyssey MultEQ XT32. It worked a month ago before I did some major upgrades with my seating. When I try to run the app now the app loses communication with the receiver. I can get it started. It will play a signal to set the volume of the subwoofer but the sound icon doesn't move toward the center.

I can still click next and it will say it's, "Checking the Front Left Speaker. Please wait..." It never moves from that screen while still continuously playing the subwoofer volume test signal until it times out.


I've reset the cache on the app, I've reinstalled, I've power cycled the receiver, every modem, switch, and router in my home to no avail. The receiver is wired with ethernet and my phone has a solid 5Ghz signal using an Orbi mesh system.


I've tried to search for answers but have come up with nothing that helps.
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post #8396 of 8400 Old 05-24-2020, 10:51 AM
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I've had major problems running the app from an actual Android device. I tended to lose communication in the middle of an 8 position measurement.

I have had better luck running the app under an Android emulator on a Windows PC. I used to use BlueStacks, but more recently went with Memu.

One issue: sometimes the Play Store didn't recognize that I had already purchased the app, even though I was logged in using my Google account. I was able to cause it to be downloaded to the emulator from a Windows login, though. (Strange.)
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I was able to get it to work by uninstalling and sideloading an older version of the app. Now lets hope it will let me upload it. Working on figuring out ratbuddy now.
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post #8398 of 8400 Old 05-25-2020, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balbolito View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnytheSkin View Post
I know sub boosts are common (on top of DEQ), but are people boosting Atmos channels as well? Maybe for a little more oomph or height activity?

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I add about 1db to the level trim of each of my ceiling Atmos speakers just to increase the immersiveness a bit. to my ears it sounds better this way.
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Just a comment here. Many people are using direct firing speakers for atmos and not ceiling mount. For me I have to decrease dB or they are too dominate.
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post #8399 of 8400 Old Yesterday, 11:42 AM
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I’ve had my dual SVS PC-2000 pro’s setup for a few weeks and deciding to try another calibration. Before I had a 7dB narrow dip at 90hz. This time I moved my throw pillows and placed the mic exactly where my head sits, keeping a 6inch placement. I was able to get AVR trims at -11 and -10.5.

The dip is all but gone. Just a tiny 3dB dip that’s narrow. I created 2 curves. 1 full range, Reference 1 curve, MRC off and DEQ on. Second is limited to 500hz with DEQ ON.

Both options sound amazing but now that I finally have great subs I decided to try a 4dB boost using the SVS app. When I had my dual 1K’s I couldn’t imagine running my subs hot but the 2K’s never sound bloated or boomy. I still prefer my subs flat with DEQ.

Last edited by rosstg; Yesterday at 04:24 PM.
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post #8400 of 8400 Old Yesterday, 01:50 PM
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Hi,


I have a Denon X3600H (Audyssey MulEQ XT32). My subwoofer (Paradigm V10) supports ARC.


How do I configure all this ? I can configure ARC but disable it. Should I run Audyssey with ARC enable or disable ?


I just don't know how to make this work together.



Thanks
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