"Official" Audyssey thread Part II - Page 29 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #841 of 7251 Old 08-05-2016, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Alan, will all due respect, I think you didn't really answer my question, right? HOW does program material matter? HT system does not know what is being played. But I think I'm repeating myself, again and again!


I think I already answered this question! No difference between source material that the system can (or can not) recognize!!!!!!!

Anything from hereon is pure speculation, or preference, or even placebo. The distinction of music and movies has nothing to do with Audyssey, eh? Let's try to think out of the box. May we?
Hi Feri,

If I had any sense (it's been amply demonstrated that I don't) I would stay out of this. But I'm friends with both of you, and I think that there is some genuine misunderstanding occurring. I think that things have bogged down a little on the issue of the difference between music and movies, when the original point of the distance tweak was more about finding the best general splice for overall frequency response.

First, I have never tried Alan's sub distance tweak, nor have I wanted to, so I'm speaking purely hypothetically here. But there is a difference between listening to music in 2.1 and watching a movie in 5.1. No difference at all to Audyssey, but plenty of difference to the listener. A number of people have reported that they prefer to listen to music in two-channel stereo, but need to use their sub(s) for bass. And many of them use Audyssey for that. Audyssey doesn't care. It works great for everything.

But if those people can hypothetically get a better splice at the crossover between their fronts, the only speakers in their system at that point, and their subs, then why wouldn't they want to do that? That was the point that Alan was making. The problem for me comes in with the notion of moving back and forth between two-channel, and 5.1, applications. Trying to remember distance adjustments, and tweak them back-and-forth, sounds like a kludge. Much easier to pick your best compromise distance settings and use them for everything, which is pretty much what Alan said at one point before things bogged down on music versus movies.

I don't know that there would be as much practical benefit in even trying the sub distance tweak, unless you had multiple subs. And whether there would be any audible or measurable benefit from it would remain to be seen, depending on the individual circumstance. But I certainly wouldn't condemn anyone for wanting to experiment. It's always easy enough to default back to the original settings if the tweak didn't work well.

Just thought I would try to move things past what seemed like a slight misunderstanding between friends.

Regards,
Mike
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post #842 of 7251 Old 08-05-2016, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Looks like the traps cleaned it up a bit from 120-160hz for sure, good job there.

I'm not really seeing the "chaos from 100-400hz" you were talking about earlier. Sure, it looks a little ragged over ~150hz, but that's pretty much normal. Once you get above the modal region, you should apply smoothing to better represent what you can actually hear. Either use Variable or 1/6th above the sub frequencies.

I would expect to see the bass response a bit more flat higher up though. Where is your crossover set? It seem like you are dropping significantly from 40-100hz, then the response starts to slowly rise again to 300hz. Can we see the same measurement but with Audyssey off?

I hope Feri or Gary J don't see how hot you're running your subs! You may incur their wrath.


EDIT: Since we are now getting into graph interpretation, it may be best to move this discussion to the REW thread or your own thread.
Take a look at my left speakers full range graph (variable smoothing). Compared to the right one it looks pretty terrible. Crossover is at 80 Hz on fronts and cc, 90 on surrounds.

I will keep posting on REW topic from now on so I don't clutter here (after I answer your other questions just below here ).

EDIT: I measured on a noisy day, but I think ringing on waterfall/spectrogram above 100 Hz might be either due acoustic panel frame vibrating on floor (didn't notice it though) or some other rattling machinery.


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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I'm with Alan on this one. I don't really see anything chaotic here, but I am also puzzled by the drop-off above about 40Hz. The Ultra should be pretty flat all the way up to 120Hz or so, almost irrespective of crossover. But out of curiosity, where is your CC crossover set? I would also be curious to see the graph with your fronts included. Does that help at all from about 40hz up?

Ethan is obviously a great source of information, but I do have one thought on traps. They typically work best when they are open-back panels (that means one or more very large holes are cut out of the plywood backing), and can be situated with an air pocket behind them (typically of 4" to 6"). That works better than simply doubling their thickness, and is another reason why corners work well. You just put one across a corner and you already have an air pocket behind the panel. You still get the broadband benefits, but may pick-up some lower frequency benefit, as well. But with that said, I'm not going to argue traps, or trap locations, with Ethan.
Okay, so here is the issue from 40 Hz up.
First of all, after Audyssey calibration I made a +3dB boost at 31 Hz with Q of about 2.0 (not sure, but widest one) on parametric EQ of my subwoofer because it looked better that way.
Obviously, I run sub about 10 dB hot and so far when I did post calibration corrections I focused on my left speaker because its graph looks worst.
Before all of todays tweaks I actually ran sub with phase flipped for 180 because graph looked super flat that way from 16 to 90 Hz, then goes massive dip and then rest of the graph.
With phase at 0 there is a rolloff from 40 Hz the way you see it now and I ran todays sub tweak with phase at 0.
That begs for two questions. Will my response still improve if I switch phase? Is there actually a difference between flipping phase (i can do 15 degree increments) and distance tweak?

The reason why I think trap works at that location is because it actually treats SBIR. Also, all my traps actually have no plywood backing at all, just fabric. Not sure how big mistake is that.
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post #843 of 7251 Old 08-05-2016, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Alan, will all due respect, I think you didn't really answer my question, right? HOW does program material matter? HT system does not know what is being played. But I think I'm repeating myself, again and again.
As am I.

Shall we just agree to disagree?
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post #844 of 7251 Old 08-05-2016, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
Take a look at my left speakers full range graph (variable smoothing). Compared to the right one it looks pretty terrible. Crossover is at 80 Hz on fronts and cc, 90 on surrounds.

I will keep posting on REW topic from now on so I don't clutter here (after I answer your other questions just below here ).

EDIT: I measured on a noisy day, but I think ringing on waterfall/spectrogram above 100 Hz might be either due acoustic panel frame vibrating on floor (didn't notice it though) or some other rattling machinery.




Okay, so here is the issue from 40 Hz up.
First of all, after Audyssey calibration I made a +3dB boost at 31 Hz with Q of about 2.0 (not sure, but widest one) on parametric EQ of my subwoofer because it looked better that way.
Obviously, I run sub about 10 dB hot and so far when I did post calibration corrections I focused on my left speaker because its graph looks worst.
Before all of todays tweaks I actually ran sub with phase flipped for 180 because graph looked super flat that way from 16 to 90 Hz, then goes massive dip and then rest of the graph.
With phase at 0 there is a rolloff from 40 Hz the way you see it now and I ran todays sub tweak with phase at 0.
That begs for two questions. Will my response still improve if I switch phase? Is there actually a difference between flipping phase (i can do 15 degree increments) and distance tweak?

The reason why I think trap works at that location is because it actually treats SBIR. Also, all my traps actually have no plywood backing at all, just fabric. Not sure how big mistake is that.

I can comment more later (almost dinner time), but you need 5dB steps on the left side on all graphs....the 2dB steps are making your response look worse than it actually is.


EDIT: Can you share the MDAT?
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post #845 of 7251 Old 08-05-2016, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I can comment more later (almost dinner time), but you need 5dB steps on the left side on all graphs....the 2dB steps are making your response look worse than it actually is.


EDIT: Can you share the MDAT?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kcqkmw8tiu...weak2.rar?dl=0

Here you go. Some measurements are couple of dB louder then others (last ones probably) because i turned the volume up at one point while playing sine waves.

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post #846 of 7251 Old 08-05-2016, 09:12 PM
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https://www.dropbox.com/s/kcqkmw8tiu...weak2.rar?dl=0

Here you go. Some measurements are couple of dB louder then others (last ones probably) because i turned the volume up at one point while playing sine waves.
Hmmm....something very strange going on here.

It looks like your FR/FL are running about 15dB higher than your center. Is that possible??

I would recommend that you retake all measurements and make sure they are all at the exact same MV level.

What's weird is that your subwoofer level seems to be consistent throughout all measurements, but the CC level and the FR/FL levels change dramatically.

When you are measure a channel+sub are you using CH4 (LFE) out of REW (e.g. CH3 on output 1 and CH4 on output 2)? If so, don't do that.

To measure CC+subs, just use CH3 alone. To measure FL, CH1. Etc.

Also, label each measurement clearly with which channel(s) you are measuring.
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post #847 of 7251 Old 08-05-2016, 11:02 PM
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...We all know that you place ultimate trust in Audyssey and it can do no wrong in your eyes...but some of us don't. While we appreciate all that Audyssey does right, we realize it's flaws and prefer to get that last ounce of performance out of our system. That is what the distance tweak (among others) is all about...
What else besides the distance tweak are the best bang for the buck tweaks to make (the things you meant by "among others" above)? Thanks!
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I have a Marantz 8802a with XT32. After running Audyssey I found the high frequencies were a little too bright. I read in the FAQ this can be related to toe-in. However as the FAQ states, some speakers are not designed to be toed in. And according to my acoustic engineer I am working with he said my speakers are very wide dispersion (coaxial design) and with my MLP only 20 degrees off axis to the L/R his recommendation was not to toe in, as it would make little difference in the FR (not to mention I didn't really have enough room behind my baffle wall for the "wings" that would be needed to build a toed-in baffle wall).

So what I am getting at - is there any way to tweak the response curve with Audyseey, or that is what Pro is all about? With Pro can you set target curves for all channels? I would not mind toning the high frequencies down a tad. Then again, when I ran Audyssey I only used the one mic position because I misunderstood at the time - I didn't want it to measure other positions since I only cared about the MLP and didn't want a compromised MLP. Only later did I learn in the FAQ that XT32 relies on multiple measures and the more the better. I am going to rerun Audyssey and take all 8 measurements and see if that makes a difference. In looking at the results graph (some suggested you can't really go by those too much, so FWIW...) it is boosting my high end by like +8 to +10 dB. Which is surprising because I thought it won't add boosts greater than + 3dB?
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post #849 of 7251 Old 08-06-2016, 02:25 AM
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I have a Marantz 8802a with XT32. After running Audyssey I found the high frequencies were a little too bright. I read in the FAQ this can be related to toe-in. However as the FAQ states, some speakers are not designed to be toed in. And according to my acoustic engineer I am working with he said my speakers are very wide dispersion (coaxial design) and with my MLP only 20 degrees off axis to the L/R his recommendation was not to toe in, as it would make little difference in the FR (not to mention I didn't really have enough room behind my baffle wall for the "wings" that would be needed to build a toed-in baffle wall).

So what I am getting at - is there any way to tweak the response curve with Audyseey, or that is what Pro is all about? With Pro can you set target curves for all channels? I would not mind toning the high frequencies down a tad. Then again, when I ran Audyssey I only used the one mic position because I misunderstood at the time - I didn't want it to measure other positions since I only cared about the MLP and didn't want a compromised MLP. Only later did I learn in the FAQ that XT32 relies on multiple measures and the more the better. I am going to rerun Audyssey and take all 8 measurements and see if that makes a difference. In looking at the results graph (some suggested you can't really go by those too much, so FWIW...) it is boosting my high end by like +8 to +10 dB. Which is surprising because I thought it won't add boosts greater than + 3dB?
If your not using a boom mic stand. Get one! Also try lowering the mic height a bit to lessen brightness, others can recommend different mic positions but #1 can be the most critical do try to insure its no further out than 9"(from the head rest) from the actual place your head will be to insure proper distance of all channels, as I've found it can a direct correlation on timing , precision and overall imaging that point.2,3 or 4 can make all the difference in the world
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post #850 of 7251 Old 08-06-2016, 04:09 AM
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I have a Marantz 8802a with XT32. After running Audyssey I found the high frequencies were a little too bright. I read in the FAQ this can be related to toe-in. However as the FAQ states, some speakers are not designed to be toed in. And according to my acoustic engineer I am working with he said my speakers are very wide dispersion (coaxial design) and with my MLP only 20 degrees off axis to the L/R his recommendation was not to toe in, as it would make little difference in the FR (not to mention I didn't really have enough room behind my baffle wall for the "wings" that would be needed to build a toed-in baffle wall).

So what I am getting at - is there any way to tweak the response curve with Audyseey, or that is what Pro is all about? With Pro can you set target curves for all channels? I would not mind toning the high frequencies down a tad. Then again, when I ran Audyssey I only used the one mic position because I misunderstood at the time - I didn't want it to measure other positions since I only cared about the MLP and didn't want a compromised MLP. Only later did I learn in the FAQ that XT32 relies on multiple measures and the more the better. I am going to rerun Audyssey and take all 8 measurements and see if that makes a difference. In looking at the results graph (some suggested you can't really go by those too much, so FWIW...) it is boosting my high end by like +8 to +10 dB. Which is surprising because I thought it won't add boosts greater than + 3dB?
Hi,

Audiofan's suggestion to be sure that you are using a boom mic stand is a good one, as is the suggestion to be careful that most of your measurements (and particularly #1) don't go above ear height. You will also need an adapter to attach your Audyssey mic, if you aren't already using something like a mic stand. Examples of both are in the FAQ.

Toe-in is very speaker and situation specific, in my opinion. Some speakers seem to work best crossing in front of the MLP, for instance, rather than pointed right at it. So, if your speakers are in a fixed position, then so be it. If not, you could experiment just a little. This is the sort of thing I meant earlier when I said that you would probably want to run multiple calibrations over time.

Audyssey can be very finicky, because the mic "hears" subtle issues that would not be audible at all to our hearing. And in "hearing" those issues, it tries to fix them. So, getting just the right toe-in for your speakers, and approximately the right mic height, can make a difference in your Audyssey calibration. Another thing that can matter is getting your mic too close to a hard surface, whether that hard surface is a wall, or the back of a leather chair. High frequency reflections from those surfaces, and into the Audyssey mic, can create comb filtering, causing Audyssey to make unnecessary high-end corrections, including boosts. All of those things can contribute to brighter highs.

I actually prefer to stay within about 6" of my chair back, but to use a fluffy absorbent blanket over the back of the chair, to prevent comb filtering. After calibrating, I remove the blanket. It's there temporarily, and specifically to prevent high frequency reflections due to proximity between the chair back and the mic.

I would absolutely ignore the graphs. They have very little value in defining what Audyssey is actually doing. Once you have a good calibration (some people get better success with a close mic pattern, and some get better results with more mic dispersion) you can continue to experiment with settings. If you find that you still want to roll-off your highs a little, one way to do it is to use the tone control in your Marantz to take a little treble off. You can only employ those controls when DEQ is disabled, so that is a trade-off.

That is something you can experiment with to decide what you like. There are people whose opinions I respect, who use DEQ for everything, and others who use it only for movies, and never for music. Still others don't use it at all. To me it's sort of like what flavor of ice cream you like, or the type of car you prefer to drive. You simply like what you like. I believe that's one of the things that Alan may have been referring to when he spoke of other tweaks to make Audyssey work best for your personal use. How much sub boost you prefer to employ is another example.

There are good protocols to follow when starting out, but at some point we all have to decide how we enjoy using our available technologies. So, once you have a good initial calibration, I wouldn't hesitate to experiment with the settings in order to discover what really works best with your speakers, in your room.

Regards,
Mike
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post #851 of 7251 Old 08-06-2016, 04:59 AM
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Hmmm....something very strange going on here.

It looks like your FR/FL are running about 15dB higher than your center. Is that possible??

I would recommend that you retake all measurements and make sure they are all at the exact same MV level.

What's weird is that your subwoofer level seems to be consistent throughout all measurements, but the CC level and the FR/FL levels change dramatically.

When you are measure a channel+sub are you using CH4 (LFE) out of REW (e.g. CH3 on output 1 and CH4 on output 2)? If so, don't do that.

To measure CC+subs, just use CH3 alone. To measure FL, CH1. Etc.

Also, label each measurement clearly with which channel(s) you are measuring.
Apologies, I made a lots of inconsistent mess there. I won't even bother explaining. But in the end, I am using multi ch in mode on AVR to measure center while fronts and rears are turned off. Not sure how it works, but I assume that could have something with lowering the level.

Will make better measurements today during final tweaks, but I'd still like to know answer to my question: what is the difference between changing phase on sub and setting distance in avr?

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post #852 of 7251 Old 08-06-2016, 05:14 PM
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As am I.

Shall we just agree to disagree?
Alan,

I'll try to sum up my position on this issue of subwoofer distance tweak and the related film vs. music issue as follows:

1. First off, I think due respect to each other is the key to a successful thread like this one. Sharing opinions can be fun, but sometimes may have the purpose of helping out each other, especially the ones who are silent readers and may get enthusiastic on certains posts.

2. I would never select a speaker in my system based on "importance". In my system and for me each of the speakers + sub(s) have the same importance, no priority is given to any one of them. They each have their separately well defined role, so for me priority for tweaking a certain speaker or a pair has no real meaning, especially not with regards to program material.

3. I would never sacrifice something in the name of "improvement" when I do not know what else will degrade.

4. I would never do a one point measurement coz that will surely not allow any serious conclusions to be made on overall system improvement (or the lack of it). Checking CC+sub after a distance tweak without looking into what happens to all the other speakers is not my cup of tea.

5. I thing starting a sentence with the word "We" is probably not the most appropriate way to address an issue for further discussions! I dunno who is "we".

6. And as a side note, setting the sub trims +15 dB hot with MV at -10 dB should be a candidate for a Guiness World Record of highest SPL (read: 120 dB) ever reached in a home theater system the world over. (Couldn't resist!)

Let's have a rest here. Anything further discussed will surely boil down to personal preference. Nothing wrong with that, really! Each of us just have different priorities/ preferences we like when it comes to system setup and should bring about no further debate!

(Hands are shaking! )
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post #853 of 7251 Old 08-06-2016, 06:47 PM
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3. I would never sacrifice something in the name of "improvement" when I do not know what else will degrade.
1. You have frequency response of all your speakers before sub tweak.
2. You make a sub tweak with focus on specific speaker.
3. You conclude that all of your speakers responses have improved after sub tweak. Or not, if they didn't, you simply revert to (1) and keep it that way.
4. You do additional distance tweaks to improve responses on speakers of your preference. If it doesn't look acceptable on all speakers you revert to (3).

So, since (2) improved responses of all your speakers in that case (4) will never look worse then (1), no matter if your primary focus was on cc or fronts, where exactly is that "sacrifice"? I see only benefits, given that you do everything properly.
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Audyssey can be very finicky, because the mic "hears" subtle issues that would not be audible at all to our hearing. And in "hearing" those issues, it tries to fix them. So, getting just the right toe-in for your speakers, and approximately the right mic height, can make a difference in your Audyssey calibration. Another thing that can matter is getting your mic too close to a hard surface, whether that hard surface is a wall, or the back of a leather chair. High frequency reflections from those surfaces, and into the Audyssey mic, can create comb filtering, causing Audyssey to make unnecessary high-end corrections, including boosts. All of those things can contribute to brighter highs.

I actually prefer to stay within about 6" of my chair back, but to use a fluffy absorbent blanket over the back of the chair, to prevent comb filtering. After calibrating, I remove the blanket. It's there temporarily, and specifically to prevent high frequency reflections due to proximity between the chair back and the mic.
Interesting. Did you maybe compare measurements with and without blanket thrown over a seat?
Don't you think it might also be possible that fluffy blanket takes away enough energy from highs so Audyssey decides to boost them and once you remove blanket you actually encounter even more brightness/sharpness?

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post #855 of 7251 Old 08-06-2016, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
I have a Marantz 8802a with XT32. After running Audyssey I found the high frequencies were a little too bright. I read in the FAQ this can be related to toe-in. However as the FAQ states, some speakers are not designed to be toed in. And according to my acoustic engineer I am working with he said my speakers are very wide dispersion (coaxial design) and with my MLP only 20 degrees off axis to the L/R his recommendation was not to toe in, as it would make little difference in the FR (not to mention I didn't really have enough room behind my baffle wall for the "wings" that would be needed to build a toed-in baffle wall).

So what I am getting at - is there any way to tweak the response curve with Audyseey, or that is what Pro is all about? With Pro can you set target curves for all channels? I would not mind toning the high frequencies down a tad. Then again, when I ran Audyssey I only used the one mic position because I misunderstood at the time - I didn't want it to measure other positions since I only cared about the MLP and didn't want a compromised MLP. Only later did I learn in the FAQ that XT32 relies on multiple measures and the more the better. I am going to rerun Audyssey and take all 8 measurements and see if that makes a difference. In looking at the results graph (some suggested you can't really go by those too much, so FWIW...) it is boosting my high end by like +8 to +10 dB. Which is surprising because I thought it won't add boosts greater than + 3dB?
I can't remember, do you have leather (or "leather-like") seating? If so, Mike's suggestion to use a blanket (or multiple blankets) over the furniture during calibration can certainly help with perceived "brightness".
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post #856 of 7251 Old 08-06-2016, 09:33 PM
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Feri,

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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
1. First off, I think due respect to each other is the key to a successful thread like this one. Sharing opinions can be fun, but sometimes may have the purpose of helping out each other, especially the ones who are silent readers and may get enthusiastic on certains posts.
I do respect your opinion, and if I have seemed to differ, please forgive me.


Quote:
2. I would never select a speaker in my system based on "importance". In my system and for me each of the speakers + sub(s) have the same importance, no priority is given to any one of them. They each have their separately well defined role, so for me priority for tweaking a certain speaker or a pair has no real meaning, especially not with regards to program material.
If you have done the distance tweak and have found no difference between your subs+CC and subs+mains measurements, you are among the lucky ones. Most however need to compromise one or the other. As I have repeatedly said, this is the point I am trying to convey. You seem not to get it...and that's OK.


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3. I would never sacrifice something in the name of "improvement" when I do not know what else will degrade.
But you do know, via FR measurements.


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4. I would never do a one point measurement coz that will surely not allow any serious conclusions to be made on overall system improvement (or the lack of it). Checking CC+sub after a distance tweak without looking into what happens to all the other speakers is not my cup of tea.
A single point measurement is pretty much the standard with most REW users. I know it is not ideal, but it is the norm.

Personally, I check CC+subs and mains+subs post-distance tweak. Not sure what everyone else does, but I definitely check "other speakers".


Quote:
5. I thing starting a sentence with the word "We" is probably not the most appropriate way to address an issue for further discussions! I dunno who is "we".
I did not start the sentence with "we", and I was obviously referring to you and I when I said "Shall we just agree to disagree?".


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6. And as a side note, setting the sub trims +15 dB hot with MV at -10 dB should be a candidate for a Guiness World Record of highest SPL (read: 120 dB) ever reached in a home theater system the world over. (Couldn't resist!)

Bass behaves strangely in my extreme size room. I am not alone in having to run the sub trim that high to get satisfactory results. It is not that unusual (just ask Mike).

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Let's have a rest here. Anything further discussed will surely boil down to personal preference. Nothing wrong with that, really! Each of us just have different priorities/ preferences we like when it comes to system setup and should bring about no further debate!

(Hands are shaking! )
(Hand shaking back!)
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post #857 of 7251 Old 08-06-2016, 09:40 PM
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What else besides the distance tweak are the best bang for the buck tweaks to make (the things you meant by "among others" above)? Thanks!
Off the top of my head, in no particular order;

- Making sure you stay under "0dB" on the sub trim
- Making sure the sub trim isn't at either extreme post-Audyssey
- Using an external tone generator (or REW) to set post-Audyssey speaker trims
- experiment with turning off DynEQ and using the tone controls/sub trim to get to your preference instead
- turning off DynVOL
- if using DynEQ, turn down SUR trims a few dB to stop them from being overpowering below Reference
- experiment with Audyssey Flat vs. Audyssey


I'm sure there's more, just can't think of them the moment.
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post #858 of 7251 Old 08-06-2016, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I can't remember, do you have leather (or "leather-like") seating? If so, Mike's suggestion to use a blanket (or multiple blankets) over the furniture during calibration can certainly help with perceived "brightness".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Off the top of my head, in no particular order;

- Making sure you stay under "0dB" on the sub trim
- Making sure the sub trim isn't at either extreme post-Audyssey
- Using an external tone generator (or REW) to set post-Audyssey speaker trims
...
Hi Alan,

Regarding using REW to set post_audyssey speaker trims - I hadn't noted that, must have missed it. So IOW are you saying that REW with the UMIK-1 will be more accurate for setting the trims than Audyssey?

Regarding makging sure the sub trim stays under 0 dB - Tonight I followed your advice from a few days ago and repeated the Audyssey calibration (as you may reall I followed things by the letter my last time around and wound up needing about +3 dB to be happy with the sub output). So this time I had the subwoofer volume control up higher at the start. When Audyssey said it was around 82 dB and complained, I chose the option to Skip the level matching. To my surprise when it completed everything, it did match the levels afterall... It set my L trim at -9, R trim at -8 and sub trim at -10. Is that about what you were expecting?

The issue I have with this is that now I have to set my MV about +10 dB where I'd normally want it, which I find bothersome since i'm used to the real dB scale and about where the volume should be set for my preference of low medium and loud playback. Also I could run out of headroom like if I want to listen at reference it would mean +10 dB. So was this what you would have expected and OK, or did I do something wrong - and if so what can I do differently when I rerun it?

I could just "fix" things by adding adding 8 db to everything and I'd have L at -1, R at 0 and sub at -2?? Or should I just fix this some other way? BTW I did notice that according to REW the trims were all set equally balanced, but when I added +8 dB to all trims, the R channel became louder relative to the L, which surprised me. So anyway for now I am back to the low trims as set by Audyssey.

Please advice if you would be so kind. Thank you!
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post #859 of 7251 Old 08-06-2016, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
That's tough, but I'm with you. Being without both my music and movie/TV system for a period of at least two weeks would be very difficult. I wonder if there are places that would rent or loan AVR's? If not, I might have to pick-up something cheap at a pawn shop.
This is really crazy.
I was all ready to ship this out to service.
Before that I wanted to make sure the problem persists so that there should be no question from the bench.
To my surprise I could run the Audyssey w/o a single error. Dang.
Now I am really lost. The only difference when I saw the problem vs today is, earlier I used to run on a "cold" start.
Today I tried to do it after watching an entire movie. Would that make any difference, I don't know.
Planning to do it on a cold start tomorrow and see if it appears again.
I really don't want service to say they can not reproduce the problem. Looks like I need to hold on and find the exact condition that is reproducible.
One more thing to note that I do a complete shutoff (from wall switch) when the AVR (and all other equip) when not in use.
This is kind of soft reset after every use. Can this contribute to the problem?
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Hey guys - I'm a new owner of the Marantz 8802A and I have a few questions about Audyseey and some of the sound settings please.

1. When I ran Audsyeey it said my L/R (I only have a 2.1 setup at the moment) were out of phase, but had a disclaimer that even with the proper wiring it may still think that with some rooms). I double checked my wiring and its correct. I assume this is fairly normal if they have that disclaimer in there. My temporary set up is in a room that's far from ideal - 12 foot ceiling, windows all along a side wall and rear wall, fully open side of the room etc. Just curious what conditions can cause this and if its safe to ignore.

2. It has my distances quite wrong. It thinks my L/R are 2 feet further than they are. And it thinks my subwoofer is 10 feet further than it is. Should I manually fix these in them menu? Or is the Audyseey configuration all tied to this and if it thinks that's the distance that it needs for the EQ compensation just leave it as is? IOW while my overrides would be much more accurate, perhaps acoustically-speaking the speakers are that further distance because of the room characteristics and just leave it?

3. Audsyssey did a great job on my subwoofer EQ. But it left it far more flat and subtle than I'd like. I've used REW+BFD before to calibrate my own in previous setups and I usually add a house curve and like to run the subs about +5 dB "hot". What's the best way to compensate for this? I assume I can't do a house curve. But how about making the sub +5 dB hot? I know I can turn up the subs volume control, but then I lose the ability to know how much I've added and go back to where I was if I wanted. I noticed there are TWO places where you can seemingly control the subwoofer output level... There is a "Subwoofer" adjust in the Audio menu. And there is a subwoofer Level in the Speakers (IIRC that's the place) menu. Is there any difference between these locations at all? For instance if I was to +5 dB in the Subwoofer Adjust area, is there any difference if I was to leave that at 0 and just add +5 dB in the Speaker Level menu? Perhaps the Subwoofer Adjust applies differently for each input, whereas the setting in the Levels menu applies globally to the inputs?

4. Audsyssey chose 60 hz as the crossover. It sounds good but I tend to prefer 80 hz. I know I can change this in the menus, but in doing so, does it then throw off the Audsyssey calibration or it internal automatically compensates?

5. Overall I am thrilled at how much better my room sounds with Audyssey engaged. I had Yamaha YPAO in their AVRs and it never seemed to help so Audyssey is far superior. I understand their is a Pro version. How much better is it than XT-32 and what's the primary advantages of the Pro version?

Thanks!!

Having the detected "distances" (delays) wrong has to be divided into two classes (your micro must be in the exact main listening position/seat at heads height during first measurement round):

a) measured "distances" (delay) are shorter than physically determined. There may be resonances or coupling through solid materials like floor, walls, furniture etc, which have an increased speed of sound (solid material), thus resulting in a to short calculated distance(s). This must be corrected by youself by taking constructive measures to tame this because its erroneous.

b) measured "distances" (delay) are longer than than physically determined. This should only happen to the sub(s), because phase deviations between the sub and the speakers are been corrected this way on purpose. This is been done "normally" by adding som additional delay to the subs output, thus moving the sub (virtually) further away. Do not correct.

But this shouldn't happen to any of the other speakers. It might possibly occur, if the micro doesn't detect the first wave front coming from the speakers directly (direct sound) but only "sees" (hears) the reflections which travel somewhat longer. This i.e. could happen if there is no direct line of sight between a speaker and the microphone or the reflections are much louder than the direct sound as measured. This has to be corrected by the user (exception: "Dolby Atmos Enabled" speakers, which use reflections on walls and ceiling on purpose).

It is quite common after running Audyssey, that users are "not thrilled" by the bass output (level), because the removal (mostly) of room modes does lower the audible bass level, because those pre-existing resonances of higher output level are almost non existent anymore. This is "linear" bass as is recorded in the source material, and it takes some time for the brain to get used / adjust too (learn) again. You could use DynamicEQ for compensating this frequency and level dependend "deficiency" of the human hearing (Fletcher Munson curves). Just try/activate it and adjust the corresponding reference level to your liking.

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post #861 of 7251 Old 08-07-2016, 07:31 AM
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This is really crazy.
I was all ready to ship this out to service.
Before that I wanted to make sure the problem persists so that there should be no question from the bench.
To my surprise I could run the Audyssey w/o a single error. Dang.
Now I am really lost. The only difference when I saw the problem vs today is, earlier I used to run on a "cold" start.
Today I tried to do it after watching an entire movie. Would that make any difference, I don't know.
Planning to do it on a cold start tomorrow and see if it appears again.
I really don't want service to say they can not reproduce the problem. Looks like I need to hold on and find the exact condition that is reproducible.
One more thing to note that I do a complete shutoff (from wall switch) when the AVR (and all other equip) when not in use.
This is kind of soft reset after every use. Can this contribute to the problem?

I am glad that you may not have to ship the AVR off for servicing, but I have absolutely no idea why it's working better now. Perhaps the threat of being shipped away to strangers did it.

Seriously, though, anything involving microprocessors seems to be subject to whims and vagaries that I don't understand at all. I have been having trouble with my Roku 3 lately. Sometimes when I go to Spotify it will work perfectly. Other times, when I try to play a song it will simply not play. I have no idea why. My "fix" is to do a soft reset, by unplugging the unit (and then replugging it ) every time I want to use it. That infallibly works, and only takes a few seconds, but it's still a PITA that it is glitching for no apparent reason.

FWIW, I do think that doing a soft reset every time you are not using the AVR could be a factor. I just don't know why, exactly.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #862 of 7251 Old 08-07-2016, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Hi Alan,

Regarding using REW to set post_audyssey speaker trims - I hadn't noted that, must have missed it. So IOW are you saying that REW with the UMIK-1 will be more accurate for setting the trims than Audyssey?

Regarding makging sure the sub trim stays under 0 dB - Tonight I followed your advice from a few days ago and repeated the Audyssey calibration (as you may reall I followed things by the letter my last time around and wound up needing about +3 dB to be happy with the sub output). So this time I had the subwoofer volume control up higher at the start. When Audyssey said it was around 82 dB and complained, I chose the option to Skip the level matching. To my surprise when it completed everything, it did match the levels afterall... It set my L trim at -9, R trim at -8 and sub trim at -10. Is that about what you were expecting?

The issue I have with this is that now I have to set my MV about +10 dB where I'd normally want it, which I find bothersome since i'm used to the real dB scale and about where the volume should be set for my preference of low medium and loud playback. Also I could run out of headroom like if I want to listen at reference it would mean +10 dB. So was this what you would have expected and OK, or did I do something wrong - and if so what can I do differently when I rerun it?

I could just "fix" things by adding adding 8 db to everything and I'd have L at -1, R at 0 and sub at -2?? Or should I just fix this some other way? BTW I did notice that according to REW the trims were all set equally balanced, but when I added +8 dB to all trims, the R channel became louder relative to the L, which surprised me. So anyway for now I am back to the low trims as set by Audyssey.

Please advice if you would be so kind. Thank you!

Not Alan, but I will respond to some of this and then he can add his own thoughts. First, Audyssey is very accurate in balancing speakers with each other and with respect to Reference. But you can double-check results with an external source, such as REW, and using an external test tone, if you like. I believe that's all he was saying.

Second, the fact that your sub trim level was set to -10 is in fact what would be expected with a high initial gain. And the whole point of doing that is to give you plenty of headroom in the AVR to increase your sub trim without exceeding 0.0.

Third, the fact that you set your gain level on the sub higher than 75db, and continued with the calibration, had no bearing at all on where Audyssey set the trim levels for all the satellite channels. It should have still set their levels so that each speaker is playing 75db at the MLP during the calibration. If the resulting trim level is -9 or -10, so be it. That simply means that your speakers are very efficient, and that you have plenty of headroom. You have already determined that all speakers are level-matched, so everything seems to have worked properly.

Fourth, the MV setting that you have now should properly correlate to Reference, and you should be able to verify that with a calibrated SPL meter. So, if you are playing at a louder MV level than you are accustomed to, there is no particular harm in that. If on the other hand, you have some reason to believe that the MV level is not accurate with respect to Reference, that is another matter. In that case, I would recommend trying a couple of microprocessor resets and repeating the Audyssey calibration process to see if you get different trim levels relative to Reference, and a correspondingly different MV level.

I hope this helps.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #863 of 7251 Old 08-07-2016, 08:15 AM
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This is really crazy.
I was all ready to ship this out to service.
Before that I wanted to make sure the problem persists so that there should be no question from the bench.
I have had a problem with my Denon x4000 AVR--when unplugging headphones, the speakers remain muted. I recorded a video of the problem before I sent it to United Radio for warranty service. I included the URL for the video on the sheet I sent in with the unit.

I get an email from them saying that they can't reproduce the problem. I emailed back, "Tell the technician to watch the video." When I checked the repair status a few days later, I saw they were waiting for parts.

Moral of the story: If you can get a video of a malfunction, you're more likely to get the service center to find and fix the problem.

Denon x4400h, Samsung LED 1080p TV, B&W 704 mains, two M&K subwoofers, Oppo 103, Roku 2, Darbeevision, etc.
Headphone system: Focal Clear, Sennheiser HD600, AKG K702, Hifiman HE-400i, Marantz HD-DAC1, Denon DVD-3910
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Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
This is really crazy.
I was all ready to ship this out to service.
Before that I wanted to make sure the problem persists so that there should be no question from the bench.
To my surprise I could run the Audyssey w/o a single error. Dang.
Now I am really lost. The only difference when I saw the problem vs today is, earlier I used to run on a "cold" start.
Today I tried to do it after watching an entire movie. Would that make any difference, I don't know.
Planning to do it on a cold start tomorrow and see if it appears again.
I really don't want service to say they can not reproduce the problem. Looks like I need to hold on and find the exact condition that is reproducible.
One more thing to note that I do a complete shutoff (from wall switch) when the AVR (and all other equip) when not in use.
This is kind of soft reset after every use. Can this contribute to the problem?
Tested the "cold" start situation this morning. And.. no errors of any kind for 2 rounds of full 8 position calibration.
I am now short of banging my head on the wall.
When I had the problem I could not even run one full calibration without random errors and it finally failing to read the chirps in entirety.
Now I am trying to reproduce it in every which way and it does not happen.
One good thing is I did check one more time before I pack that thing. Else "problem not reproduced" would have been the possible call from service.
I will keep monitoring.
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post #865 of 7251 Old 08-07-2016, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I am glad that you may not have to ship the AVR off for servicing, but I have absolutely no idea why it's working better now. Perhaps the threat of being shipped away to strangers did it.

Seriously, though, anything involving microprocessors seems to be subject to whims and vagaries that I don't understand at all. I have been having trouble with my Roku 3 lately. Sometimes when I go to Spotify it will work perfectly. Other times, when I try to play a song it will simply not play. I have no idea why. My "fix" is to do a soft reset, by unplugging the unit (and then replugging it ) every time I want to use it. That infallibly works, and only takes a few seconds, but it's still a PITA that it is glitching for no apparent reason.

FWIW, I do think that doing a soft reset every time you are not using the AVR could be a factor. I just don't know why, exactly.
In your case though soft reset is solving the problem.
I was just suspecting if it is causing it. But looks like there may be something else. And it's gonna be damn hard to find it.
Especially when one does not calibrate every now and then.
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post #866 of 7251 Old 08-07-2016, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by pbarach View Post
I have had a problem with my Denon x4000 AVR--when unplugging headphones, the speakers remain muted. I recorded a video of the problem before I sent it to United Radio for warranty service. I included the URL for the video on the sheet I sent in with the unit.

I get an email from them saying that they can't reproduce the problem. I emailed back, "Tell the technician to watch the video." When I checked the repair status a few days later, I saw they were waiting for parts.

Moral of the story: If you can get a video of a malfunction, you're more likely to get the service center to find and fix the problem.
Good idea. I will remember that when I encounter the problem again.
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post #867 of 7251 Old 08-07-2016, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
Interesting. Did you maybe compare measurements with and without blanket thrown over a seat?
Don't you think it might also be possible that fluffy blanket takes away enough energy from highs so Audyssey decides to boost them and once you remove blanket you actually encounter even more brightness/sharpness?
Hi,

Those are good questions, and if you wished to, you could certainly test the procedure for yourself, to measure, using alternative approaches to microphone placement near a hard chair back. But, FWIW, this is a well-established procedure, which is listed in the FAQ, endorsed by Chris K, and used by many of the thread participants over the years.

The issue of potential comb filtering at high frequencies, from mic proximity to a hard surface, has always been a knotty one. Everyone understands the concept of a hard surface reflecting very short wavelengths into a nearby microphone. But there has never been any real consensus on what a too close proximity really is. In the early days, Ask Audyssey recommended keeping the mic about 10" away from a chair back, and even further away from a wall (I think it was about 15" to 18", but I'm not certain). That distinction never really made a lot of sense to me, except as a compromise. Very high frequencies would be equally reflected by any hard surface, so there wouldn't be a material (no pun intended) difference between a wall and a smooth leather chair or sofa back.

So, most people on the thread, IIRC, found themselves using about 12" or so, just in case. But, that presented a problem too, because keeping the mic 10" or 12", or so, forward of the chair back meant that the mic would be at least 6" to 8" forward of the actual ear position. For most of us, the average distance from the center of the ear canal to the back of the head is about 4". So, if you typically watch/listen with your head back, the Audyssey mic would be measuring well forward of your actual ear position (and even further from the pinnae which direct sound into the ear canal). And we know that in calibrations, inches matter.

Someone, and I don't remember who, came up with the bright idea of putting an absorbent towel or blanket over the back of a leather chair or sofa, and a number of people tried it with good success. Chris K was consulted, and the procedure was incorporated into the FAQ. It works well because it enables us to keep the Audyssey mic much closer to the actual location of our ear canals, while still preventing comb filtering. And since our heads would be occupying the position during listening, that the blanket occupied during calibration, nothing is lost or gained during the procedure. The very high frequency wavelengths still bounce wildly around the mic (from all directions) during calibration, but none of them are spuriously directed into the mic from short-range (which would tend to over-emphasize them with respect to all the direct, and other indirect, high frequency waves).

But as noted in my original post, Audyssey can be finicky, so too much of a good thing can be a bad thing. It is still necessary, in my experience, to exercise some care with the blanket, vis-a-vis mic placement. For instance, a couple of years ago, I got the bright idea that if one thick absorbent blanket were good, two thick blankets would be even better. Not so much! In my case, some upper mid-range, lower high frequency waves were absorbed, as well (similar to your speculation about the very high frequencies which we are actually trying to absorb) and the result was some inappropriate boosting in the upper mid-range, and some audible harshness. I went back to a single blanket and the problem was solved.

More recently I screwed up a calibration late at night after adding some more room treatments. I was tired, and in a hurry to finish, and I inadvertently allowed my Audyssey mic to be positioned too close to the blanket I always use. Again, the upper mid-range, and lower high-range, had a harsh quality, which was clearly audible. I repeated my calibration with my more normal diligence, this time making sure that my mic was no closer than 5" or 6" from the blanket, and the problem was solved. I do recommend staying about 5" or 6" away from a blanket, until you have a chance to listen or measure, or both, to determine how the procedure works best in your specific room. With a thinner covering, for instance, I suspect that I could get closer to it than 5" and still not affect the slightly lower than very high-range frequencies that the procedure is intended to address.

I hope that this long explanation is helpful to someone.

Regards,
Mike


Edit: I decided to edit this after double-checking a couple of things. First, I can't find the blanket procedure in the FAQ, but I know that putting it in was discussed, and I thought that Keith had incorporated it. I do know that he had endorsed the technique, and I believe that he also used it himself.

Second, I had already double-checked Ask Audyssey on the 10" from chair back recommendation, but with respect to the lack of consensus on the issue, the following is interesting. The Audyssey 101 Guide recommends staying a minimum of 12" away from chair or sofa backs during calibration, and the FAQ recommends 12" to 15". As noted earlier, what the optimum distance really is may be somewhat situation-specific, but using a towel or blanket makes the question somewhat moot, as it is now possible to get quite close to the actual ear position, without encountering spurious reflections into the Audyssey mic.
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Last edited by mthomas47; 08-07-2016 at 10:55 AM.
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post #868 of 7251 Old 08-07-2016, 10:50 AM
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Hi,

Those are good questions, and if you wished to, you could certainly test the procedure for yourself, to measure, using alternative approaches to microphone placement near a hard chair back. But, FWIW, this is a well-established procedure, which is listed in the FAQ, endorsed by Chris K, and used by many of the thread participants over the years.

The issue of potential comb filtering at high frequencies, from mic proximity to a hard surface, has always been a knotty one. Everyone understands the concept of a hard surface reflecting very short wavelengths into a nearby microphone. But there has never been any real consensus on what a too close proximity really is. In the early days, Ask Audyssey recommended keeping the mic about 10" away from a chair back, and even further away from a wall (I think it was about 15" to 18", but I'm not certain). That distinction never really made a lot of sense to me, except as a compromise. Very high frequencies would be equally reflected by any hard surface, so there wouldn't be a material (no pun intended) difference between a wall and a smooth leather chair or sofa back.

So, most people on the thread, IIRC, found themselves using about 12" or so, just in case. But, that presented a problem too, because keeping the mic 10" or 12", or so, forward of the chair back meant that the mic would be at least 6" to 8" forward of the actual ear position. For most of us, the average distance from the center of the ear canal to the back of the head is about 4". So, if you typically watch/listen with your head back, the Audyssey mic would be measuring well forward of your actual ear position (and even further from the pinnae which direct sound into the ear canal). And we know that in calibrations, inches matter.

Someone, and I don't remember who, came up with the bright idea of putting an absorbent towel or blanket over the back of a leather chair or sofa, and a number of people tried it with good success. Chris K was consulted, and the procedure was incorporated into the FAQ. It works well because it enables us to keep the Audyssey mic much closer to the actual location of our ear canals, while still preventing comb filtering. And since our heads would be occupying the position during listening, that the blanket occupied during calibration, nothing is lost or gained during the procedure. The very high frequency wavelengths still bounce wildly around the mic (from all directions) during calibration, but none of them are spuriously directed into the mic from short-range (which would tend to over-emphasize them with respect to all the direct, and other indirect, high frequency waves).

But as noted in my original post, Audyssey can be finicky, so too much of a good thing can be a bad thing. It is still necessary, in my experience, to exercise some care with the blanket, vis-a-vis mic placement. For instance, a couple of years ago, I got the bright idea that if one thick absorbent blanket were good, two thick blankets would be even better. Not so much! In my case, some upper mid-range, lower high frequency waves were absorbed, as well (similar to your speculation about the very high frequencies which we are actually trying to absorb) and the result was some inappropriate boosting in the upper mid-range, and some audible harshness. I went back to a single blanket and the problem was solved.

More recently I screwed up a calibration late at night after adding some more room treatments. I was tired, and in a hurry to finish, and I inadvertently allowed my Audyssey mic to be positioned too close to the blanket I always use. Again, the upper mid-range, and lower high-range, had a harsh quality, which was clearly audible. I repeated my calibration with my more normal diligence, this time making sure that my mic was no closer than 5" or 6" from the blanket, and the problem was solved. I do recommend staying about 5" or 6" away from a blanket, until you have a chance to listen or measure, or both, to determine how the procedure works best in your specific room. With a thinner covering, for instance, I suspect that I could get closer to it than 5" and still not affect the slightly lower than very high-range frequencies that the procedure is intended to address.

I hope that this long explanation is helpful to someone.

Regards,
Mike
Thank you for detailed answer.

I forgot to mention though that I personally am using XT32 and as suspected (which I just read in FAQ), XT32 corrects higher frequencies with really wide Q, unlike previous XT versions which did very detailed corrections. And that makes morse sense....when taking multiple measurements variations in high frequency response are dramatic and very "comby" so correcting every peak and dip with steps of 1, 2, 5, 10 Hz doesn't make much sense since you will simply move your head few inches and receive some terribly incorrect sounds. Therefore correcting highs in broad frequency ranges for brightness/darkness seems like an obvious thing.
That being said, even corrections with wide Q can make material sound harsh or dull, no doubt. My issue is mostly with removing a blanket after a measurement. While its true that you occupy most of the space where you measure and therefore you absorb/bounce most of reflections instead of chair/sofa, if back of the chair is high you will still face some nasty reflections and keeping the blanket on would actually be more beneficial imo.
I will definitely try calibrating both ways. But I would prefer more flexibility in manipulating Audyssey curve. Personally, above some high frequency (e.g. 2kHz) I'd probably leave it untouched or slighly tilted if too dark/bright.

EDIT: some of my previous experiments with blankets and acoustic panels concluded that after certain amount of acoustic treatment (on a single spot in a room, e.g. back wall or back of a chair) its not possible to further reduce combing but that its potentially possible to make a mess in midrange and that generally, farther away from hard surfaces mic are, less combing will occur.

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post #869 of 7251 Old 08-07-2016, 12:44 PM
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1. You have frequency response of all your speakers before sub tweak.
2. You make a sub tweak with focus on specific speaker.
3. You conclude that all of your speakers responses have improved after sub tweak. Or not, if they didn't, you simply revert to (1) and keep it that way.
4. You do additional distance tweaks to improve responses on speakers of your preference. If it doesn't look acceptable on all speakers you revert to (3).

So, since (2) improved responses of all your speakers in that case (4) will never look worse then (1), no matter if your primary focus was on cc or fronts, where exactly is that "sacrifice"? I see only benefits, given that you do everything properly.
Somebody involved in this brouhaha please point out where I am wrong.

If A = B and B = C, then A = C.

If your sub is tweaked for your CC and causes chaos with respect to L&R - or - your sub is tweaked for L&R and causes chaos with the CC ... then your LCR cause chaos with each other ... sub or no sub.

Following the dictum for optimizing our audio systems and our rooms:

1. Speaker placement
2. Listener placement
3. Acoustical treatments ... and finally ..
4. Electronic correction

I am of the opinion that, based on the un-optimized graph I saw a few pages ago, that acoustical treatments would tame all speaker/room interactions and allow for a single sub "tweak".

edit: re-read everything. I might be conflating Alan's and donktard's "issues" ... my post is addressed to whichever changes sub tweaked based on content, i.e. 5.1 vs 2.1.
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Last edited by pepar; 08-07-2016 at 12:51 PM.
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edit: re-read everything. I might be conflating Alan's and donktard's "issues" ... my post is addressed to whichever changes sub tweaked based on content, i.e. 5.1 vs 2.1.
The only thing I wanted to convey is that if your first subwoofer tweak improves both center and fronts, any additional "finesse" tweak focusing on center or fronts will NEVER sound worse then with no tweaks at all.
But if you make a sub tweak for center and fronts get dramatically worse and vice versa, you are better off with no tweak at all.

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