"Official" Audyssey thread Part II - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 6751 Old 03-26-2016, 04:19 PM
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My (just replaced) Onk 5508 had no adjustments for movie or music, and was not to my liking for movies or music ... until I applied my house curve with the Pro kit.
House curve details please Jeff. Wanna know them details and your approach on finalizing the curve. Thx a million!
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post #62 of 6751 Old 03-26-2016, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post
My (just replaced) Onk 5508 had no adjustments for movie or music, and was not to my liking for movies or music ... until I applied my house curve with the Pro kit.

What did you change to, if you don't mind my curiosity?
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post #63 of 6751 Old 03-26-2016, 04:24 PM
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Emotiva XMC-1
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post #64 of 6751 Old 03-26-2016, 04:33 PM
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Emotiva XMC-1

Thanks! I have heard good things about Emotiva, and of course about DL, as well. That looks like a fine pre-pro. Would I be going way out on a limb to guess that you are also using Emotiva amps?

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post #65 of 6751 Old 03-26-2016, 04:44 PM
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House curve details please Jeff. Wanna know them details and your approach on finalizing the curve. Thx a million!
On Audyssey Pro I used a 1dB boost at 200Hz with a 0dB (anchor) at 300Hz. And there are anchors at 12k and 24K with a 1.5dB boost at 20k. The sub is excluded from this curve. I also used the midrange compensation.

I have dialed in the same mild changes on my XMC-1 with Dirac Full Live. There is no MRC ...
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post #66 of 6751 Old 03-26-2016, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post
On Audyssey Pro I used a 1dB boost at 200Hz with a 0dB (anchor) at 300Hz. And there are anchors at 12k and 24K with a 1.5dB boost at 20k. The sub is excluded from this curve. I also used the midrange compensation.

I have dialed in the same mild changes on my XMC-1 with Dirac Full Live. There is no MRC ...
Jeff, does this work for all and any program material, be it film or music?
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post #67 of 6751 Old 03-26-2016, 05:09 PM
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Jeff, does this work for all and any program material, be it film or music?
I arrived at this curve with music, specifically Chant and Between The Sheets from Fourplay, and a song or two from Ernie Watts' Classic Moods. These are my go to "test signals."

IMO, get the music correct, and everything else falls in place.

Jeff

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post #68 of 6751 Old 03-26-2016, 05:23 PM
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Thanks! I have heard good things about Emotiva, and of course about DL, as well. That looks like a fine pre-pro. Would I be going way out on a limb to guess that you are also using Emotiva amps?
Am using ATI 2007 for mains and four Hsu TN 1220HO with two Hsu sub amps. My M&K S-150/SS-150 spkrs are 4ohms, so the ATI outputs 300 watts p/ch.

I have been eying amps that would give me 500 wpc or more just to give me more headroom. Unfortunately, a new HVAC is lined up in front of any more AV upgrades.

Jeff

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post #69 of 6751 Old 03-26-2016, 05:29 PM
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BTW, the XMC-1 is head and shoulders above the Onk 5508 in the sound quality category. I used it for a few days w/o room correction and it was stunningly superior. I am really looking forward to running Dirac on my "alt" MCH spkr system and listing to some hi-res MCH music.
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post #70 of 6751 Old 03-26-2016, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post
I arrived at this curve with music, specifically Chant and Between The Sheets from Fourplay, and a song or two from Ernie Watts' Classic Moods. These are my go to "test signals."

IMO, get the music correct, and everything else falls in place.

Jeff
Fully agree with you Sir on getting music correct first. My reference musics are: Patricia Barber (American), Yello (Swiss) and Bliss (from Denmark). Anything from Bliss, but especially "Song for Olabi":
, a number that contains everything and anything we enthusiast would ever like to hear in a recording.

P.s. there's another group with same name (Bliss) from UK, no need to look them up, forgettable/unimpressive, at least for me.
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post #71 of 6751 Old 03-26-2016, 05:48 PM
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... and Off.
lol how did I forget the most important setting!?
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post #72 of 6751 Old 03-26-2016, 06:12 PM
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Yello (Swiss)
O h, y e a h.
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post #73 of 6751 Old 03-26-2016, 06:13 PM
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need help please; Subwoofer issue w/Denon S900W

When I run the program there is barely any sound out of my Polk PSW125 subwoofer and the program thinks its an error and says to check wire settings. All you can hear is a very faint boom-boom. All other speakers sound great during the program. The sub wiring is correct of course since its LFE input and only 1 cable and sub has been running & for 1.5 years. When I set the speakers & sub up manually the system sounds great.. its 5.1 set-up


What am I doing wrong?? and yes it has a direct LFE input which I use. What should be the settings in back of sub before I try running program again? And yes all speakers are set to small

thanks... I'm very frustrated as I've had this Denon AVR for 18 months and like to use the Audyssey software program that i paid for. thanks a lot

Tom
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post #74 of 6751 Old 03-26-2016, 06:52 PM
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When I run the program there is barely any sound out of my Polk PSW125 subwoofer and the program thinks its an error and says to check wire settings. All you can hear is a very faint boom-boom. All other speakers sound great during the program. The sub wiring is correct of course since its LFE input and only 1 cable and sub has been running & for 1.5 years. When I set the speakers & sub up manually the system sounds great.. its 5.1 set-up


What am I doing wrong?? and yes it has a direct LFE input which I use. What should be the settings in back of sub before I try running program again? And yes all speakers are set to small

thanks... I'm very frustrated as I've had this Denon AVR for 18 months and like to use the Audyssey software program that i paid for. thanks a lot

Tom
Hi Tom, my first tip would be to try to turn "Volume" on the Polk subwoofer to 12 o'clock and run Audyssey again. Let us know what trim level was set in the AVR for your sub?
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post #75 of 6751 Old 03-26-2016, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post
Am using ATI 2007 for mains and four Hsu TN 1220HO with two Hsu sub amps. My M&K S-150/SS-150 spkrs are 4ohms, so the ATI outputs 300 watts p/ch.

I have been eying amps that would give me 500 wpc or more just to give me more headroom. Unfortunately, a new HVAC is lined up in front of any more AV upgrades.

Jeff

Sounds impressive even before the extra headroom. Don't you just hate it when non-essentials get in the way of AV upgrades?

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post #76 of 6751 Old 03-26-2016, 07:03 PM
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Hi Feri..

I followed instructions and sub volume was set at 12 o'clock, Phase is set to zero, and using the LFE input all the settings should be over-ridden and Audyssey should know that.

Its late now so perhaps I'll try for a 4th time tomorrow. At least I know for sure the sub works, all speakers are set to small and the crossover for the fronts are 80 Hz and my rear ceiling surrounds at 120 Hz. Right now it sounds great with my manual set-up listening to classic rock music via Pandora...
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post #77 of 6751 Old 03-26-2016, 08:29 PM
 
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I also saw where Chris said something like "It will be the year of preference" which to me, sounds like possibly being able to adjust the frequency boost and surround boost independently in DEQ.......... and maybe if we're really lucky, they will implement a max frequency EQ setting.

That would be like Christmas, and I would probably buy another AVR because of those features.
But what about those people who just bought a brand new Denon/Marantz receiver (pre/pro) with Dolby Atmos and DTS:X (Auro-3D) audio decoders?
If Audyssey improves their EQ system, what are they going to do; sell their brand new units and buy another one this next Christmas coming up?
That sounds like normal routine in this audio/video world hobby of ours.
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post #78 of 6751 Old 03-26-2016, 08:55 PM
 
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Fully agree with you Sir on getting music correct first. My reference musics are: Patricia Barber (American), Yello (Swiss) and Bliss (from Denmark). Anything from Bliss, but especially "Song for Olabi": "Song for Olabi", a number that contains everything and anything we enthusiast would ever like to hear in a recording.
Good ***** Feri, my bag of chips.

* With Audyssey Dynamic EQ engaged, or disengaged?
______


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post #79 of 6751 Old 03-26-2016, 10:02 PM
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These are the results I'm seeing -

setup A - Yamaha AVR, 90dB efficient speakers
setup B - Denon X2200w, 95dB efficient speakers

Ran the autocal routine for both to let AVR calibrate speakers.

With A, I watched movies at -20dB. With B, Dynamic Volume and DEQ off, I need to watch almost at -5dB to get the same loudness, tested with SPL meter. I have never listened near reference, it was simply too loud, and I don't understand why it needs to be turned up so much now, esp with speakers that are much more efficient.

I know the standard answer is 'ignore the volume reading' but this does not add up.
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Which model Yamaha receiver?
And, is that both with their EQ system on?
Did you try with both off?

The Yamaha has a higher gain. Does it sound more full @ low volume* than the Denon? ...Like the bass tighter, and the midrange clearer.

* Low volume like less than 2 watts (3 max).
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post #81 of 6751 Old 03-26-2016, 11:00 PM
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It was a RX-V675. I did not have any EQ to speak of with Yamaha, I had run its YPAO but the differences in enabling it were minimal, I only used it to set the speaker distances/levels, which I checked with SPL meter also, and ran with it off.

What do you mean by 'Yamaha has a higher gain' ? With all EQ off on both, I have to turn the Denon volume up a lot more.
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post #82 of 6751 Old 03-27-2016, 12:07 AM
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One more thing, from the FAQ - "One thing to note: there is no point whatsoever in changing all the trims by the same amount - this is exactly the same as changing the Master Volume by that amount."

I don't agree with this. e.g. if trim is -10dB, that means the max possible output is 10dB less than what it can be at any given MV setting, right? It may not matter much in practice if your AVR has enough power but its not the same thing.
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Originally Posted by Defcon View Post
These are the results I'm seeing -

setup A - Yamaha AVR, 90dB efficient speakers
setup B - Denon X2200w, 95dB efficient speakers

Ran the autocal routine for both to let AVR calibrate speakers.

With A, I watched movies at -20dB. With B, Dynamic Volume and DEQ off, I need to watch almost at -5dB to get the same loudness, tested with SPL meter. I have never listened near reference, it was simply too loud, and I don't understand why it needs to be turned up so much now, esp with speakers that are much more efficient.

I know the standard answer is 'ignore the volume reading' but this does not add up.
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Which model Yamaha receiver?
And, is that both with their EQ system on?
Did you try with both off?

The Yamaha has a higher gain. Does it sound more full @ low volume* than the Denon? ...Like the bass tighter, and the midrange clearer.

* Low volume like less than 2 watts (3 max).
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It was a RX-V675. I did not have any EQ to speak of with Yamaha, I had run its YPAO but the differences in enabling it were minimal, I only used it to set the speaker distances/levels, which I checked with SPL meter also, and ran with it off.

What do you mean by 'Yamaha has a higher gain' ? With all EQ off on both, I have to turn the Denon volume up a lot more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defcon View Post
One more thing, from the FAQ - "One thing to note: there is no point whatsoever in changing all the trims by the same amount - this is exactly the same as changing the Master Volume by that amount."

I don't agree with this. e.g. if trim is -10dB, that means the max possible output is 10dB less than what it can be at any given MV setting, right? It may not matter much in practice if your AVR has enough power but its not the same thing.
Say you don't apply any room EQ to neither receiver, and all the speaker trims are set with a SPL meter, manually.
You mentioned speakers of 90dB and 95dB sensitivity used with the two different receivers; are they the front L and R speakers?

Me, I would use the same set of speakers with both receivers, and check their volume settings where they produce the same volume level.
Then do it again but this time with the other pair of speakers.
Because the way you are doing it is not totally fair; first you don't know their true sensitivity in your room and @ the MLP.
Your experiment has to be more precise, IMO.

The difference right now is 15dB in their volume settings, with the speakers's sensitivity you gave us (from the speaker's manufacturers? [email protected] one, two, three meters? In room-response?), it's all too relative...their true sensitivity has to be measured, or use the same set of speakers for both receivers.
Then the difference might be 10dB this time. And the volume settings from different receivers are going to be different anyway for the same power level of the same speakers produced @ the MLP.

The range of the volume levels vary from one receiver to another. The trims too. Not all receivers are the same. Not all speakers are the same. Some receivers cannot drive 4Ohm speakers. Some receivers need way more power to drive 4Ohm speakers. There are simply too many variables in your example.

Try what I suggest, and from there I'll get to the second part with you. Because two different pair of speakers have simply too many variables to consider; not just sensitivity, but impedance too, and in-room response @ the mic (MLP). Use the same pair of speakers with both receivers, measure, write it down, post it, and I'll get back to you. EQ off in both, no night mode, no dynamic compression, just channel trims balanced with the same speakers.

And just stereo, to start. Then with five speakers, all the same five for both receivers, no sub. Then with sub, and same sub level, but trim balanced with the main speakers. And if the trim of the sub channel is different for both receivers, it'll affect the overall master volume control setting in each receiver.
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post #84 of 6751 Old 03-27-2016, 06:10 AM
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It was a RX-V675. I did not have any EQ to speak of with Yamaha, I had run its YPAO but the differences in enabling it were minimal, I only used it to set the speaker distances/levels, which I checked with SPL meter also, and ran with it off.

What do you mean by 'Yamaha has a higher gain' ? With all EQ off on both, I have to turn the Denon volume up a lot more.

Hi,

I had a similar reaction to Bob's and I think his advice is good. Reading your original post on the comparison left me wondering if you had both speaker types side-by-side, or if you did the test with one at a time, putting the speakers in optimal positions each time?

With that much variation in volume level, it is also possible that something is wrong with your AVR. I would forget about comparisons with the Yamaha for a while, and just concentrate on getting your Denon to work with your preferred speakers. To do that, you will have to optimize the speaker positions with respect to placement and toe-in, for instance.

Then, I would do a microprocessor reset on the Denon, and run as good a calibration as you can. If the trim levels still come in that low, and yet your MV still needs to be at a very high level such as -5, I would then substitute the Yamaha for the Denon, without changing anything else at all, and see what that does.

In theory, Audyssey is recognizing the increased sensitivity of your more sensitive speakers when it sets lower trim levels, but the fact that it isn't getting translated into a lower MV setting is the only concern. That is where a microprocessor reset (or two or three) may be helpful, because something doesn't sound right here. You shouldn't have trim levels that low (which is good=lots of headroom) but then need a MV setting that high. If the microprocessor resets don't work, and sometimes it takes several, you may have a defective receiver. Unfortunately, that can happen with any brand. I hope not, so good luck with the resets.

Regards,
Mike

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post #85 of 6751 Old 03-27-2016, 08:19 AM
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Surround Boost in DEQ:

I spent some time scanning the papers that Feri linked, based on his conversation with Chris. Chris' willingness to continue to discuss Audyssey-related issues, and his relationship with Feri, are real assets in my opinion.

Although, the papers were very heavy reading, and would require a great deal of time for me to fully (if I ever could) comprehend, I did see several common themes in the various studies cited. First, there is apparently a great deal of variability in the way people perceive changes in SPL, based on angle of incidence in the horizontal plane. Second, sounds arriving from an azimuth of 90* are typically perceived as louder below about 5KHz (above 5KHz, the results are less predictable). Third, sounds arriving from 135* are typically slightly lower than sounds arriving from the front, and even lower than sounds arriving from the side. Fourth, sounds arriving from 180* are typically lower (up to 3 or 4db?) than sounds arriving from the side (the side appeared to consistently produce more perceived loudness at frequencies lower than 5KHz--unpredictable above that).

If someone else interprets the conclusions of those papers differently, please feel free to correct my summary as required. It would take me more time than I am currently willing to devote to double-check my own summary. But I think it is generally, and reasonably, accurate.

That takes me back to the discussion earlier, about the extent to which Audyssey was utilizing a valid premise in creating the surround boost, and tying it to DEQ. I had speculated that even if some sounds fall off faster from behind than they do in front, that wouldn't have justified boosting surrounds in a 5.1 system, since the surround speakers would typically be at about 90* or so (where it turns out that our hearing is actually most sensitive).

The Dolby recommendation for surround speakers in a 5.1 system is for 90* (+/- 10*). That would have been the standard when DEQ was created. Gurkey linked to a 2012 standard from an ITU whitepaper suggesting an azimuth of anywhere from 100* to 120*. That's a little further toward the back than the older Dolby standard, but still well short of the 135* where the studies cited found a measurably significant SPL loss. It was unclear to me that there was consensus in the amount of SPL loss at 135*, and it was somewhat frequency dependent, but I inferred that it was relatively small--on the order of 1.5 to 2db.

Based on those papers, I am still inclined to conclude that the surround boost was based on an inappropriate conceptual leap, from the idea that rear arriving sounds are softer, to the implementation of a process that added boost to side arriving sounds in a 5.1 system (which was then, and even now still probably is, the most common surround system).

It is also worth noting, that in the various tests, subjects literally sat with their heads in a vice (well, not quite a vice) in order to obtain reliable measurable results. But we don't typically watch movies that way. We relax, turn slightly, to pick up something to drink, or for whatever reason, and in the process slightly change the angle at which the ear on either side of our head is, relative to surround and even rear surround speakers. The fact that we don't actually sit with our heads immobile, in my opinion, also made the surround boost a less reliable way to deal with side/rear arriving sound, even if that had been a truly desirable goal to start with.

As for why the surround boost is more bothersome to some listeners than to others, specific rooms, speakers, and speaker placement may be part of the explanation, but the wide variance in perception found in the test subjects, in all of the studies, would also help to explain it. We simply do not all perceive sounds in the same way, nor changes in loudness, nor directional changes in loudness.

I want to reiterate something I said earlier. None of this is intended as an indictment of either DEQ, in general, or of the surround boost, in particular. I am quite serious in believing that people should just like what they like, and not worry too much about what other people say, and I especially believe that with respect to entertainment choices. I don't always agree with movie reviews, or base all of my viewing decisions on other peoples' opinions, for instance. And much of what I have written is subjective--logical maybe, but still subjective. So, if you enjoy the surround boost in DEQ, or simply don't notice it particularly, then this post shouldn't change anything at all for you. But it's an interesting subject that keeps coming up, and I think that understanding the validity of the origin of the surround boost is a worthwhile discussion to have.

Regards,
Mike
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post #86 of 6751 Old 03-27-2016, 08:43 AM
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Hi,

I had a similar reaction to Bob's and I think his advice is good. Reading your original post on the comparison left me wondering if you had both speaker types side-by-side, or if you did the test with one at a time, putting the speakers in optimal positions each time?

With that much variation in volume level, it is also possible that something is wrong with your AVR. I would forget about comparisons with the Yamaha for a while, and just concentrate on getting your Denon to work with your preferred speakers. To do that, you will have to optimize the speaker positions with respect to placement and toe-in, for instance.

Then, I would do a microprocessor reset on the Denon, and run as good a calibration as you can. If the trim levels still come in that low, and yet your MV still needs to be at a very high level such as -5, I would then substitute the Yamaha for the Denon, without changing anything else at all, and see what that does.

In theory, Audyssey is recognizing the increased sensitivity of your more sensitive speakers when it sets lower trim levels, but the fact that it isn't getting translated into a lower MV setting is the only concern. That is where a microprocessor reset (or two or three) may be helpful, because something doesn't sound right here. You shouldn't have trim levels that low (which is good=lots of headroom) but then need a MV setting that high. If the microprocessor resets don't work, and sometimes it takes several, you may have a defective receiver. Unfortunately, that can happen with any brand. I hope not, so good luck with the resets.

Regards,
Mike
I have both sets of speakers and compared them one by one (2 sets of LCR speakers), not side by side. I just took this photo in my living room -



The new speakers are 3 Behringer B212XL as LCR, which I bought after finding out in this thread - https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...l-r-mains.html.
Old speakers are not connected now, its the tiny one next to the huge center. The sensitivity specs for the Behringer have been confirmed in that thread as 95dB, the older speaker is no longer made. I don't have the Yamaha anymore.

Denon set the trim levels to -6/-8dB across the board. I have tried raising the trim levels manually (while still keeping the differences between them), which is the same as raising MV. But my main concern about which I posted earlier as well is that with DV off, the SPL drops off by 10/15dB on all content, not just with peaks/lows.

I will try the reset.
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I have both sets of speakers and compared them one by one, not side by side. I just took this photo in my living room -

I don't know whether you got to complete your post, but no photo is showing.

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* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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I don't know whether you got to complete your post, but no photo is showing.
Hit submit by mistake, its complete now.
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Hi Feri..

I followed instructions and sub volume was set at 12 o'clock, Phase is set to zero, and using the LFE input all the settings should be over-ridden and Audyssey should know that.

Its late now so perhaps I'll try for a 4th time tomorrow. At least I know for sure the sub works, all speakers are set to small and the crossover for the fronts are 80 Hz and my rear ceiling surrounds at 120 Hz. Right now it sounds great with my manual set-up listening to classic rock music via Pandora...
Update:

Haven't re-run Audyssey yet due to it being Easter. But my sub issue aside, my wife and I know noticed big change in our 2 rear surround in-ceiling speakers. We played all channel 5.1 music via Pandora for 3-4 hours and the rears sounded so much more lively & more punch. I assume Audyssey changed something in our Denon S900W software to drive this?? or just my imagination??
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post #90 of 6751 Old 03-27-2016, 09:27 AM
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Update:

Haven't re-run Audyssey yet due to it being Easter. But my sub issue aside, my wife and I know noticed big change in our 2 rear surround in-ceiling speakers. We played all channel 5.1 music via Pandora for 3-4 hours and the rears sounded so much more lively & more punch. I assume Audyssey changed something in our Denon S900W software to drive this?? or just my imagination??

Hi,

If you have DEQ enabled (Audyssey defaults to that when you do a calibration) that would explain it. DEQ boosts the surrounds a bit, which you may be enjoying.

Regards,
Mike
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* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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