"Official" Audyssey thread Part II - Page 30 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #871 of 7180 Old 08-07-2016, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by gurkey View Post
...b) measured "distances" (delay) are longer than than physically determined. This should only happen to the sub(s), because phase deviations between the sub and the speakers are been corrected this way on purpose. This is been done "normally" by adding som additional delay to the subs output, thus moving the sub (virtually) further away. Do not correct.

But this shouldn't happen to any of the other speakers. It might possibly occur, if the micro doesn't detect the first wave front coming from the speakers directly (direct sound) but only "sees" (hears) the reflections which travel somewhat longer. This i.e. could happen if there is no direct line of sight between a speaker and the microphone or the reflections are much louder than the direct sound as measured. This has to be corrected by the user (exception: "Dolby Atmos Enabled" speakers, which use reflections on walls and ceiling on purpose)...
I currently have just a 2.1 setup in my living room as a temporary setup until my theater is finished. In my case it puts the L/R channels about 2.5 feet further than they really are. It also detects them as out of phase, which I have verified they are not, both by checking the wiring inside and outside the speakers and also by the "in-phase, out of phase loop" YouTube that Alan pointed me to. The room has glass windows down one side and glass windows and wooden blind/shutters in the rear, and my MLP is just 1.5-2 feet in front of those. So its entirely possible that reflections are throwing things off. I'm not too concerned since this is just a temporary setup and my theater being built will have full treatments from head to toe designed by an acoustic engineer. But in the meantime I am trying to optimize my temporary setup for listening enjoyment and education so I am fully prepared to tweak the audio setup in the new room once ready.

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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Not Alan, but I will respond to some of this and then he can add his own thoughts. First, Audyssey is very accurate in balancing speakers with each other and with respect to Reference. But you can double-check results with an external source, such as REW, and using an external test tone, if you like. I believe that's all he was saying.
I just checked this morning. With the UMIK-1 in the MLP and the MV set to 0, using the Test Tones in the 8802a menu the L 1.5 dB light (73.5) and the R was about 2.5 dB light. I tweaked those. The subwoofer was also about 8 dB light, reading around 67 dB. I raised that from -10 to -2. I haven't done any listening tests yet.

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Second, the fact that your sub trim level was set to -10 is in fact what would be expected with a high initial gain. And the whole point of doing that is to give you plenty of headroom in the AVR to increase your sub trim without exceeding 0.0.
Oddly, at least according to REW as I posted above, it set the sub about 8 dB light. This means that by the time I'm done correcting for that, and adding my 3-5 dB boost, I'll be back to having a positive gain for the subwoofer.

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Third, the fact that you set your gain level on the sub higher than 75db, and continued with the calibration, had no bearing at all on where Audyssey set the trim levels for all the satellite channels. It should have still set their levels so that each speaker is playing 75db at the MLP during the calibration. If the resulting trim level is -9 or -10, so be it. That simply means that your speakers are very efficient, and that you have plenty of headroom. You have already determined that all speakers are level-matched, so everything seems to have worked properly.
Glad to hear it. The final L/R trim after REW tweaking was something like -6.5 dB and -5.0 dB for the L/R. Does that mean that I have the headroom to play at about 5 dB over reference at the MLP?

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Fourth, the MV setting that you have now should properly correlate to Reference, and you should be able to verify that with a calibrated SPL meter. So, if you are playing at a louder MV level than you are accustomed to, there is no particular harm in that. If on the other hand, you have some reason to believe that the MV level is not accurate with respect to Reference, that is another matter. In that case, I would recommend trying a couple of microprocessor resets and repeating the Audyssey calibration process to see if you get different trim levels relative to Reference, and a correspondingly different MV level.
See above. Thanks for the help.
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post #872 of 7180 Old 08-07-2016, 01:40 PM
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After doing an 8 point Audyseey calibration my measurements with L+R+sub looked pretty good. I had a sharp dip of about -15 dB at around 65 hz. I played with the subwoofer distance, and by raising it from 21 to 27 the dip went away. Is tweaking distance like this known to help get rid of such dips? However, I noticed that when I lowered my subwoofer level 5 dB, the dip came back! I think at that point the sub was set too low. Anyway this made me wonder if my subwoofer distance tweak was actually good and a valid approach, or if it was only good for a certain output level, in which case its not a valid tweak for such a thing?

Another difference that I'm not too happy about is that with the 8 point calibration the sub EQ is not as smooth. It goes from 20-50 nice and flat and then drops about 5 dB for 50-80hz range and then the rest of the range is about the same. Whereas with the 1 point calibration there was no such 5 dB drop off in the subwoofer response and it sounds a bit fuller. Any idea what's caused this?
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post #873 of 7180 Old 08-07-2016, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
I currently have just a 2.1 setup in my living room as a temporary setup until my theater is finished. In my case it puts the L/R channels about 2.5 feet further than they really are. It also detects them as out of phase, which I have verified they are not, both by checking the wiring inside and outside the speakers and also by the "in-phase, out of phase loop" YouTube that Alan pointed me to. The room has glass windows down one side and glass windows and wooden blind/shutters in the rear, and my MLP is just 1.5-2 feet in front of those. So its entirely possible that reflections are throwing things off. I'm not too concerned since this is just a temporary setup and my theater being built will have full treatments from head to toe designed by an acoustic engineer. But in the meantime I am trying to optimize my temporary setup for listening enjoyment and education so I am fully prepared to tweak the audio setup in the new room once ready.

I just checked this morning. With the UMIK-1 in the MLP and the MV set to 0, using the Test Tones in the 8802a menu the L 1.5 dB light (73.5) and the R was about 2.5 dB light. I tweaked those. The subwoofer was also about 8 dB light, reading around 67 dB. I raised that from -10 to -2. I haven't done any listening tests yet.

Oddly, at least according to REW as I posted above, it set the sub about 8 dB light. This means that by the time I'm done correcting for that, and adding my 3-5 dB boost, I'll be back to having a positive gain for the subwoofer.

Glad to hear it. The final L/R trim after REW tweaking was something like -6.5 dB and -5.0 dB for the L/R. Does that mean that I have the headroom to play at about 5 dB over reference at the MLP?

See above. Thanks for the help.

You are very welcome! And I do have a few thoughts. First, the Audyssey mics have an error factor of +/- 3db, and I believe that the UMIK has an error factor of about +/- 1db, so it's not surprising that they would yield slightly different results. But if you are going to check Audyssey trim levels, just for fun, you should really use an external test tone, generated from a disk, and not test tones from your 8802. That's something that Alan was explaining earlier, and I believe that there is a detailed explanation in the FAQ.

Frankly, I wouldn't tweak any of the satellite trim levels from where Audyssey put them, without a specific reason, such as something specifically sounding too loud on one side. Remember that the goal here is just to make all the speakers play at the same volume at the MLP. And yes, a lower trim level does translate into more headroom to go above Reference, if necessary.

The reason why your sub seems to be measuring so much lower than 75db is harder to explain, but I suspect that it has something to do with the bandwidth-limited internal test tone in the 8802. Perhaps someone else can explain that. But the important thing is how the sub sounds. When you increase the sub trim from the -10 where Audyssey put it to -4, or -2, or whatever, are you getting the bass you want?

I hope that you will take this in the right way, because I know that you are anxious to figure things out, but if I were you I would give myself a break for awhile from second-guessing the validity of the Audyssey trim settings, and just concentrate on the sound. You can always return to the question of trim settings again as you get more experience with the technology. But for the moment at least, how do things sound to you, when you leave the satellite trims where Audyssey put them, and tweak you sub trim(s) to taste?

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #874 of 7180 Old 08-07-2016, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
After doing an 8 point Audyseey calibration my measurements with L+R+sub looked pretty good. I had a sharp dip of about -15 dB at around 65 hz. I played with the subwoofer distance, and by raising it from 21 to 27 the dip went away. Is tweaking distance like this known to help get rid of such dips? However, I noticed that when I lowered my subwoofer level 5 dB, the dip came back! I think at that point the sub was set too low. Anyway this made me wonder if my subwoofer distance tweak was actually good and a valid approach, or if it was only good for a certain output level, in which case its not a valid tweak for such a thing?

Another difference that I'm not too happy about is that with the 8 point calibration the sub EQ is not as smooth. It goes from 20-50 nice and flat and then drops about 5 dB for 50-80hz range and then the rest of the range is about the same. Whereas with the 1 point calibration there was no such 5 dB drop off in the subwoofer response and it sounds a bit fuller. Any idea what's caused this?

I'm about tapped out for right now, but as Feri continually reminds people, doing a one-point measurement can be very deceptive. So, just as a one-point calibration may seem to provide outstanding frequency response at that single point in space, that's not actually how our ears work, and not how we hear. The same thing can be true with a single measurement. Try calibrating with a very tight microphone pattern, keeping all of your mic positions within about a 12" or 18" radius, with no positions behind the MLP. But, whatever pattern you use, all 8 positions should give Audyssey's weighted average algorithms much better information to EQ your listening area. And how it sounds will ultimately be much more important than how it measures.
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #875 of 7180 Old 08-07-2016, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I'm about tapped out for right now, but as Feri continually reminds people, doing a one-point measurement can be very deceptive. So, just as a one-point calibration may seem to provide outstanding frequency response at that single point in space, that's not actually how our ears work, and not how we hear. The same thing can be true with a single measurement. Try calibrating with a very tight microphone pattern, keeping all of your mic positions within about a 12" or 18" radius, with no positions behind the MLP. But, whatever pattern you use, all 8 positions should give Audyssey's weighted average algorithms much better information to EQ your listening area. And how it sounds will ultimately be much more important than how it measures.
Fully agree with Mike on the necessity of multi-point measurements, yet I would like to add that the post-Audyssey verification measurements with REW should also always be done in the same manner.

@lovingdvd :

Try to take note of your mic positions during Audyssey setup and place your test mic to the same positions again.

Then do an 8 point measurement and use the "average" function of REW. This will still not give you the exact picture of what Audyssey did in your room, it will lack the sophistication of the Audyssey algorithm, but will bring you much closer to reality than a single-point REW measurement done at the MLP, especially in the low(er) frequency range.
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post #876 of 7180 Old 08-07-2016, 02:33 PM
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3. I would never sacrifice something in the name of "improvement" when I do not know what else will degrade.
Ah, but you do, you use an auto EQ program. No auto EQ program ever made is perfect and yes Feri, that includes Audyssey. They all try to improve the overall sound, and most do a decent job, but all of them have their caveats... Throw in funky "features" such as DEQ and DV, and you have even more caveats that actually degrade the overall sound.

Have a good day!
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post #877 of 7180 Old 08-07-2016, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Another difference that I'm not too happy about is that with the 8 point calibration the sub EQ is not as smooth. It goes from 20-50 nice and flat and then drops about 5 dB for 50-80hz range and then the rest of the range is about the same. Whereas with the 1 point calibration there was no such 5 dB drop off in the subwoofer response and it sounds a bit fuller. Any idea what's caused this?
Yeah, you know how audyssey tells you to place mic in 8 different positions to measure the response? And usually there is sofa with 3 seats on a picture? And 5 measuring positions aren't even depicted on those 3 seats but around them? Yeah well, since you could have big variations in bass response seat to seat (and around seats) Audyssey tries to optimize so it minimizes variations in that whole area, which is you know...fine, if you have 6 people watching with you and care somewhat about their audio experience.
But if you prefer watching alone...or simply don't care how everyone around you hears the movie ( ), then you will sit in your fine sofa, lean forward/backward, left and right and make calibration pattern with microphones only as far as your head goes around, which will in turn result in best averaged response for a single listening position.
Measuring single spot only multiple times actually confuses audyssey (since response is always the same) and it makes some corrections it shouldn't.

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post #878 of 7180 Old 08-07-2016, 02:46 PM
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Ah, but you do, you use an auto EQ program. No auto EQ program ever made is perfect and yes Feri, that includes Audyssey. They all try to improve the overall sound, and most do a decent job, but all of them have their caveats... Throw in funky "features" such as DEQ and DV, and you have even more caveats that actually degrade the overall sound.

Have a good day!
D Bone, nobody ever said auto EQ is prefect, even Audyssey not. Fully agree. Yet, DEQ and especially DV has nothing to do with acoustics. DEQ is there to compensate spectral balance for our ears as MV is lowered, while DV is a convenience feature not to bother loved ones or neighbours when watching a movie late night. But you also know this!!
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post #879 of 7180 Old 08-07-2016, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I'm about tapped out for right now, but as Feri continually reminds people, doing a one-point measurement can be very deceptive. So, just as a one-point calibration may seem to provide outstanding frequency response at that single point in space, that's not actually how our ears work, and not how we hear. The same thing can be true with a single measurement. Try calibrating with a very tight microphone pattern, keeping all of your mic positions within about a 12" or 18" radius, with no positions behind the MLP. But, whatever pattern you use, all 8 positions should give Audyssey's weighted average algorithms much better information to EQ your listening area. And how it sounds will ultimately be much more important than how it measures.
Thanks for that - good to know and to keep in mind.

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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
...Then do an 8 point measurement and use the "average" function of REW. This will still not give you the exact picture of what Audyssey did in your room, it will lack the sophistication of the Audyssey algorithm, but will bring you much closer to reality than a single-point REW measurement done at the MLP, especially in the low(er) frequency range.
Thanks I had overlooked that 1 point REW vs multi-point Audyssey. I understand what you are saying.

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Yeah, you know how audyssey tells you to place mic in 8 different positions to measure the response? And usually there is sofa with 3 seats on a picture? And 5 measuring positions aren't even depicted on those 3 seats but around them? Yeah well, since you could have big variations in bass response seat to seat (and around seats) Audyssey tries to optimize so it minimizes variations in that whole area, which is you know...fine, if you have 6 people watching with you and care somewhat about their audio experience.
But if you prefer watching alone...or simply don't care how everyone around you hears the movie ( ), then you will sit in your fine sofa, lean forward/backward, left and right and make calibration pattern with microphones only as far as your head goes around, which will in turn result in best averaged response for a single listening position.
Measuring single spot only multiple times actually confuses audyssey (since response is always the same) and it makes some corrections it shouldn't.
Sounds like a great idea. As an Audyssey newb I had ran it and just did a single point, because I only care about a single seat and didn't want it to take other seats into account. But after getting advice here and reading the FAQ I realized the importance of the multiple measurements. I am going to repeat the test but with the multiple measuring points grouped much closer together, like 6" apart in each direction from position 1 and see how that goes.

Here's an interesting question - my couch is just 1.5 foot off the rear wall so there's no room to measure behind it - should I just skip measures 7 and 8, or still do these measures but measure them in other nearby spots which are near the MLP but not behind it? IOW is Audyssey expecting measures 7 and 8 to be behind the listener, or are these just two extra data points for averaging and it doesn't really matter where they are just as long as they are close to the MLP?

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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
You are very welcome! And I do have a few thoughts. First, the Audyssey mics have an error factor of +/- 3db, and I believe that the UMIK has an error factor of about +/- 1db, so it's not surprising that they would yield slightly different results. But if you are going to check Audyssey trim levels, just for fun, you should really use an external test tone, generated from a disk, and not test tones from your 8802. That's something that Alan was explaining earlier, and I believe that there is a detailed explanation in the FAQ.
I checked the trims after my last calibration using REW and the Right channel was just 0.5 dB less than it should have been. But I left it in the position it picked figuring that maybe it had its reason. I did do the levels with REW's signal generator and they were very close to even this way (like mentioned just 0.5 dB off). When using the internal test tone they were like 1.5 dB off. Really strange that they would put test tones in that don't measure accurately, don't you think?

Quote:
Frankly, I wouldn't tweak any of the satellite trim levels from where Audyssey put them, without a specific reason, such as something specifically sounding too loud on one side. Remember that the goal here is just to make all the speakers play at the same volume at the MLP. And yes, a lower trim level does translate into more headroom to go above Reference, if necessary.
After running my latest calibration (6 point, since I have no room behind the sofa for measures 7 and 8 as mentioned above) I left everything as it was, including the distances which are about 2 feet too long.

Quote:
The reason why your sub seems to be measuring so much lower than 75db is harder to explain, but I suspect that it has something to do with the bandwidth-limited internal test tone in the 8802. Perhaps someone else can explain that. But the important thing is how the sub sounds. When you increase the sub trim from the -10 where Audyssey put it to -4, or -2, or whatever, are you getting the bass you want?
I can get the bass output I want. I just have to crank up the trim for the sub. It set it at -10 dB. I find that at -5 dB its doing what I want, with a dB or two tweak here or there based on source. DEQ is working nicely too - I really like it. Does a great job "filling in" bass when listening at low levels.

Quote:
I hope that you will take this in the right way, because I know that you are anxious to figure things out, but if I were you I would give myself a break for awhile from second-guessing the validity of the Audyssey trim settings, and just concentrate on the sound. You can always return to the question of trim settings again as you get more experience with the technology. But for the moment at least, how do things sound to you, when you leave the satellite trims where Audyssey put them, and tweak you sub trim(s) to taste?
Things sound amazing really with all these configurations! With the exception of one or two calibration attempts sounding a bit too bright. Right now I have it sounding great. I've used the Save function to save off some of the calibrations. But unfortunately its really hard to know from memory which calibration set is the best. One could be quite a bit better than the other, but without instant A/B switching its hard to know. Just like trying to compare on projectors image to another sometimes - without them side by side its hard to remember exactly what one looked like vs another. Same situation here, just with audio instead of video.

BTW on another note - Audyssey keeps wanting to set my XO at 40 Hz. My speakers are rated down to 40 Hz, and REW confirms that it is handling that just fine, so I am not surprised. That said, for reasons stated in the FAQ I prefer to run the XO at 80hz and set it that way in the manual settings. The FAQ says this doesn't impact Audyssey, but I feel like it could. Anyway it would be nice if there was a setting to tell Audyssey to use the desired XO and let it optimize around that.
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post #880 of 7180 Old 08-07-2016, 08:26 PM
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Guys - what accessory / accessories are you using to connect your Audyssey mic to a boom? I have a boom that has a thick threaded end that I use for the UMIK-1 and REW. The UMIK-1 mic holder accessory screws into that thread (after removing the thicker "socket" screw thingy from inside the mic holder accessory), and the UMIK-1 snaps into the mic holder. That works great for the UMIK-1 and REW. But I want a way to attach the Audyssey mic to the boom...

I see the Audyssey mic has a small thread on the end, but even if that screwed into the boom I have (it wouldn't since the boom thread is much thicker than the screw slot in the Audyssey mic), I still need some sort of accessory that would allow me to rotate the Audyssey mic so it can point upward (even if I screwed it into the boom it would then be pointed straight forward instead of up). If you could please point me to links on Amazon or elsewhere for everything/whatever I need to get this Audyssey mic attached with flexibility to the boom that would be terrific. Thanks!
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post #881 of 7180 Old 08-07-2016, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Guys - what accessory / accessories are you using to connect your Audyssey mic to a boom? I have a boom that has a thick threaded end that I use for the UMIK-1 and REW. The UMIK-1 mic holder accessory screws into that thread (after removing the thicker "socket" screw thingy from inside the mic holder accessory), and the UMIK-1 snaps into the mic holder. That works great for the UMIK-1 and REW. But I want a way to attach the Audyssey mic to the boom...

I see the Audyssey mic has a small thread on the end, but even if that screwed into the boom I have (it wouldn't since the boom thread is much thicker than the screw slot in the Audyssey mic), I still need some sort of accessory that would allow me to rotate the Audyssey mic so it can point upward (even if I screwed it into the boom it would then be pointed straight forward instead of up). If you could please point me to links on Amazon or elsewhere for everything/whatever I need to get this Audyssey mic attached with flexibility to the boom that would be terrific. Thanks!
I use a boom mic stand that has the standard mic connector (slip mic into type) that sounds the same as what you have. What I do is turn this mic holder down so that there is a flat surface parallel to the ceiling and then I set the Audyssey mic on this and secure it with a little duct tape.
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post #882 of 7180 Old 08-07-2016, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Guys - what accessory / accessories are you using to connect your Audyssey mic to a boom? I have a boom that has a thick threaded end that I use for the UMIK-1 and REW. The UMIK-1 mic holder accessory screws into that thread (after removing the thicker "socket" screw thingy from inside the mic holder accessory), and the UMIK-1 snaps into the mic holder. That works great for the UMIK-1 and REW. But I want a way to attach the Audyssey mic to the boom...

I see the Audyssey mic has a small thread on the end, but even if that screwed into the boom I have (it wouldn't since the boom thread is much thicker than the screw slot in the Audyssey mic), I still need some sort of accessory that would allow me to rotate the Audyssey mic so it can point upward (even if I screwed it into the boom it would then be pointed straight forward instead of up). If you could please point me to links on Amazon or elsewhere for everything/whatever I need to get this Audyssey mic attached with flexibility to the boom that would be terrific. Thanks!
I use this one

http://https://www.amazon.com/CM01-C...corder+Adapter
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post #883 of 7180 Old 08-08-2016, 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Guys - what accessory / accessories are you using to connect your Audyssey mic to a boom? I have a boom that has a thick threaded end that I use for the UMIK-1 and REW. The UMIK-1 mic holder accessory screws into that thread (after removing the thicker "socket" screw thingy from inside the mic holder accessory), and the UMIK-1 snaps into the mic holder. That works great for the UMIK-1 and REW. But I want a way to attach the Audyssey mic to the boom...

I see the Audyssey mic has a small thread on the end, but even if that screwed into the boom I have (it wouldn't since the boom thread is much thicker than the screw slot in the Audyssey mic), I still need some sort of accessory that would allow me to rotate the Audyssey mic so it can point upward (even if I screwed it into the boom it would then be pointed straight forward instead of up). If you could please point me to links on Amazon or elsewhere for everything/whatever I need to get this Audyssey mic attached with flexibility to the boom that would be terrific. Thanks!
I use this one

http://https://www.amazon.com/CM01-C...corder+Adapter
Looks great, thanks. Does the threaded male part that comes with this fit the Audussey mic, or do I need an adapter for it?

Also I have this boom https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000978D58..._bGcQxbNEFEPZH that says it has a solid cast end with standard 5/8-27 threads. Will that fit onto the other end of this accessory you linked to or do I need an adapter for that (and if so, do you know which)? Thanks!
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post #884 of 7180 Old 08-08-2016, 05:12 AM
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Here's an interesting question - my couch is just 1.5 foot off the rear wall so there's no room to measure behind it - should I just skip measures 7 and 8, or still do these measures but measure them in other nearby spots which are near the MLP but not behind it? IOW is Audyssey expecting measures 7 and 8 to be behind the listener, or are these just two extra data points for averaging and it doesn't really matter where they are just as long as they are close to the MLP?
Audyssey only cares where first measurement is. Like I said, spread out mic within the range of your head movement.

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http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wi...176/index.html
(allows the full swiveling needed)

And

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/deta...FYtZhgodhkMBww
(the actual adapter)

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Thanks for that - good to know and to keep in mind.


Thanks I had overlooked that 1 point REW vs multi-point Audyssey. I understand what you are saying.


Sounds like a great idea. As an Audyssey newb I had ran it and just did a single point, because I only care about a single seat and didn't want it to take other seats into account. But after getting advice here and reading the FAQ I realized the importance of the multiple measurements. I am going to repeat the test but with the multiple measuring points grouped much closer together, like 6" apart in each direction from position 1 and see how that goes.

Here's an interesting question - my couch is just 1.5 foot off the rear wall so there's no room to measure behind it - should I just skip measures 7 and 8, or still do these measures but measure them in other nearby spots which are near the MLP but not behind it? IOW is Audyssey expecting measures 7 and 8 to be behind the listener, or are these just two extra data points for averaging and it doesn't really matter where they are just as long as they are close to the MLP?


I checked the trims after my last calibration using REW and the Right channel was just 0.5 dB less than it should have been. But I left it in the position it picked figuring that maybe it had its reason. I did do the levels with REW's signal generator and they were very close to even this way (like mentioned just 0.5 dB off). When using the internal test tone they were like 1.5 dB off. Really strange that they would put test tones in that don't measure accurately, don't you think?

After running my latest calibration (6 point, since I have no room behind the sofa for measures 7 and 8 as mentioned above) I left everything as it was, including the distances which are about 2 feet too long.


I can get the bass output I want. I just have to crank up the trim for the sub. It set it at -10 dB. I find that at -5 dB its doing what I want, with a dB or two tweak here or there based on source. DEQ is working nicely too - I really like it. Does a great job "filling in" bass when listening at low levels.


Things sound amazing really with all these configurations! With the exception of one or two calibration attempts sounding a bit too bright. Right now I have it sounding great. I've used the Save function to save off some of the calibrations. But unfortunately its really hard to know from memory which calibration set is the best. One could be quite a bit better than the other, but without instant A/B switching its hard to know. Just like trying to compare on projectors image to another sometimes - without them side by side its hard to remember exactly what one looked like vs another. Same situation here, just with audio instead of video.

BTW on another note - Audyssey keeps wanting to set my XO at 40 Hz. My speakers are rated down to 40 Hz, and REW confirms that it is handling that just fine, so I am not surprised. That said, for reasons stated in the FAQ I prefer to run the XO at 80hz and set it that way in the manual settings. The FAQ says this doesn't impact Audyssey, but I feel like it could. Anyway it would be nice if there was a setting to tell Audyssey to use the desired XO and let it optimize around that.

You are very welcome! I won't try to address everything here, but there are a few points where some additional clarification may be helpful. First, I would definitely use all 8 mic positions, but I would not go behind the MLP, particularly with a wall just 18" away. Assuming that you are not dealing with a second row of seating, whatever mic pattern you are using describes a box around (to the sides and in front of) the MLP. It can be a big box, with a radius of 2' to 3' from the MLP, or it can be a small box, with a radius of 12" or less. But just do all 8 mic positions within that box. For positions 7 and 8, I stay fairly close to position #1 , going out about 6" or so to each side, and up about 2" above ear level. But that's just one approach. Anywhere within your box should be fine for 7 and 8. Incidentally, I am pretty anal about getting the mic height right at the middle of my ear canal for 1 through 6. And that height may be lower than you think, if you haven't really measured it.

I agree that it can be very difficult to compare calibrations, given the short-term nature of audio memory. But the more you perfect your calibration technique, the more your calibrations should become fairly consistent in reproducing very similar sounding results. As mentioned earlier, it is very helpful to keep a log of your last/best mic pattern, so that you can return to that specific pattern whenever you need to do another calibration.

Audyssey doesn't actually set your crossover. Your AVR (or pre pro) does. That may seem like an unimportant distinction, but I thought you would want to understand this. Audyssey measures a speaker (CC) or a speaker pair, and reports the F3 point (the frequency where the volume of a speaker is down by 3db) to the AVR. The AVR then assigns Large, or Small with a crossover, based on its own internal algorithm. The assignment is based on the higher response of a pair of speakers, if the F3 points are not identical (typically due to room placement). Each company has its own formula for assigning crossovers (Denon/Marantz should be exactly the same) and they should be very similar, but might not be identical. For instance, if a speaker pair has an F3 point of 38Hz, are they set as Large, or are they set as Small with a 40Hz crossover? What about 39Hz? We have never really had clarification on how the different Audyssey implementations among makers such as Onkyo, or Denon/Marantz, exactly vary with respect to setting crossovers, but again the differences should be insignificant.

In any event, that initial crossover setting doesn't really matter, as given the information, that your speakers are set to Small /40Hz, you now know that you should probably reset them to 80Hz, and probably to not less than 60Hz, in any case. That is based on a good general rule of thumb, that for HT, speakers should typically have crossovers 1/2 to 1 octave higher than their in-room F3 point, in order to relieve strain on the AVR and offload it onto the sub. And that rule is a pretty good one to follow even with XT-32, which sets equivalent filters for both the subs and the satellite channels. But there can sometimes be advantages to the use of a 60Hz crossover for mid-bass support, for instance, so I am personally glad that we have both an initial crossover, based on the reported F3 point, and the ability to modify it to suit our own listening objectives. Of course, just to be on the safe side for whomever might read this, I should add that it is never advisable to set a crossover lower than where an AVR put it.

Regards,
Mike

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post
Pepar - Can you look at this one that audiofan1 recommended and let me know if it looks like it has the same flexibility, or if not, if it would be "good enough"? https://amzn.com/B001GWCC4I . Its only $10 and much easier for me to source from Amazon, and looks like I wouldn't need any thread adapters. But I can't tell if the one you linked to has more adjustment options? The one on Amazon says Pan Adjstment: 360 degrees, Tilt Angle Adjustment: 180 degrees. I suppose the one on Amazon would be good enough, but please let me know if you think it has any important drawbacks compared to the one you use. Thanks!
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post #888 of 7180 Old 08-08-2016, 10:10 AM
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Pepar - Can you look at this one that audiofan1 recommended and let me know if it looks like it has the same flexibility, or if not, if it would be "good enough"? https://amzn.com/B001GWCC4I . Its only $10 and much easier for me to source from Amazon, and looks like I wouldn't need any thread adapters. But I can't tell if the one you linked to has more adjustment options? The one on Amazon says Pan Adjstment: 360 degrees, Tilt Angle Adjustment: 180 degrees. I suppose the one on Amazon would be good enough, but please let me know if you think it has any important drawbacks compared to the one you use. Thanks!
The one you point to handles the thread conversion as well as some "flexibility." Get it. Try it.

Looking at it myself, it doesn't look like it has the freedom and ease that the Audio-Technica has. Every time I curse, the amount I shoulda/coulda/woulda spent goes up be $5.00. Just sayin'.

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The one you point to handles the thread conversion as well as some "flexibility." Get it. Try it.

Looking at it myself, it doesn't look like it has the freedom and ease that the Audio-Technica has. Every time I curse, the amount I shoulda/coulda/woulda spent goes up be $5.00. Just sayin'.

Jeff
Thanks. I just ordered the one from Amazon and will let you guys know how I like it. I agree with your point about it being worth the extra money if yours makes it faster and easier to adjust. But considering that this will be delivered to my doorstep soon and I don't have to go around town to find the others this is just too convenient to pass up. I figure I'll try it and if its not what I need I'll then have to step up my game for your version. Thanks for the help.
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post #890 of 7180 Old 08-08-2016, 12:09 PM
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Hi Alan,

Regarding using REW to set post_audyssey speaker trims - I hadn't noted that, must have missed it. So IOW are you saying that REW with the UMIK-1 will be more accurate for setting the trims than Audyssey?

Regarding makging sure the sub trim stays under 0 dB - Tonight I followed your advice from a few days ago and repeated the Audyssey calibration (as you may reall I followed things by the letter my last time around and wound up needing about +3 dB to be happy with the sub output). So this time I had the subwoofer volume control up higher at the start. When Audyssey said it was around 82 dB and complained, I chose the option to Skip the level matching. To my surprise when it completed everything, it did match the levels afterall... It set my L trim at -9, R trim at -8 and sub trim at -10. Is that about what you were expecting?

The issue I have with this is that now I have to set my MV about +10 dB where I'd normally want it, which I find bothersome since i'm used to the real dB scale and about where the volume should be set for my preference of low medium and loud playback. Also I could run out of headroom like if I want to listen at reference it would mean +10 dB. So was this what you would have expected and OK, or did I do something wrong - and if so what can I do differently when I rerun it?

I could just "fix" things by adding adding 8 db to everything and I'd have L at -1, R at 0 and sub at -2?? Or should I just fix this some other way? BTW I did notice that according to REW the trims were all set equally balanced, but when I added +8 dB to all trims, the R channel became louder relative to the L, which surprised me. So anyway for now I am back to the low trims as set by Audyssey.

Please advice if you would be so kind. Thank you!

Sorry, I wasn't on AVS for most of the weekend.

I see that Mike and others have answered most of your questions and you seem to have a calibration you are happy with.

If there's anything that you feel is still unanswered, let me know!
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Pepar - Can you look at this one that audiofan1 recommended and let me know if it looks like it has the same flexibility, or if not, if it would be "good enough"? https://amzn.com/B001GWCC4I . Its only $10 and much easier for me to source from Amazon, and looks like I wouldn't need any thread adapters. But I can't tell if the one you linked to has more adjustment options? The one on Amazon says Pan Adjstment: 360 degrees, Tilt Angle Adjustment: 180 degrees. I suppose the one on Amazon would be good enough, but please let me know if you think it has any important drawbacks compared to the one you use. Thanks!
Yes it indeed swivels and the thread will fit the Audyssey mic
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Sorry, I wasn't on AVS for most of the weekend.

I see that Mike and others have answered most of your questions and you seem to have a calibration you are happy with.

If there's anything that you feel is still unanswered, let me know!

Well, what the heck's the matter with you? Why should you have a life, if the rest of us don't?
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Originally Posted by Alan P
Sorry, I wasn't on AVS for most of the weekend.

I see that Mike and others have answered most of your questions and you seem to have a calibration you are happy with.

If there's anything that you feel is still unanswered, let me know!




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Well, what the heck's the matter with you? Why should you have a life, if the rest of us don't?
I also noticed the thread was down a bit!

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Well, what the heck's the matter with you? Why should you have a life, if the rest of us don't?
I was in "Plumbing Hell" most of the weekend...it was not fun.

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I also noticed the thread was down a bit!
"Down"? As in "a big downer"??

Awww, Feri actually missed me!
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While Alan wasn't here on AVS for most of the weekend, I did some thinking to myself and came up with something new. Well, ...new to me, maybe it has been brought up on AVS on other threads, so here goes.

Usually when we place the Audyssey mic (apart from MLP), we always have a guessing game whether its in the right position or not, and this dilemma is regardless of a multi-seater layout or a narrower one-man position.

So, to resolve the dilemma, how about doing/trying the following method in order to have first hand info (read: curves) of our room acoustics and its visible anomalies spot-by-spot:

1. Turn off Audyssey completely.
2. Set up the measuring rig for REW.
3. Take as many measurements as you can (20-30 maybe) around where you or your buddies will sit (optional), then average the results in REW. (Don't forget to take note of all the measurement spots, this info will be needed later on.)
4. Take a close scrutiny at all these measurement curves, overlap them in REW, note the similarities with regards to peaks and dips. Disregard where they are not similar.
5. Make a shortlist of 8 areas (1 MLP + 7 more) that are similar that you want to eq with Audyssey MultEQ.
6. Place the Audyssey mic to those selected areas and run MultEQ.

Please don't ask me questions, just send your comments, recommendations, further ideas, or just say this guy is a lunatic.

I know this procedure might be a bit tedious and time consuming, ...but hey,...are we in a hurry?
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post #896 of 7180 Old 08-08-2016, 03:22 PM
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While Alan wasn't here on AVS for most of the weekend, I did some thinking to myself and came up with something new. Well, ...new to me, maybe it has been brought up on AVS on other threads, so here goes.

Usually when we place the Audyssey mic (apart from MLP), we always have a guessing game whether its in the right position or not, and this dilemma is regardless of a multi-seater layout or a narrower one-man position.

So, to resolve the dilemma, how about doing/trying the following method in order to have first hand info (read: curves) of our room acoustics and its visible anomalies spot-by-spot:

1. Turn off Audyssey completely.
2. Set up the measuring rig for REW.
3. Take as many measurements as you can (20-30 maybe) around where you or your buddies will sit (optional), then average the results in REW. (Don't forget to take note of all the measurement spots, this info will be needed later on.)
4. Take a close scrutiny at all these measurement curves, overlap them in REW, note the similarities with regards to peaks and dips. Disregard where they are not similar.
5. Make a shortlist of 8 areas (1 MLP + 7 more) that are similar that you want to eq with Audyssey MultEQ.
6. Place the Audyssey mic to those selected areas and run MultEQ.

Please don't ask me questions, just send your comments, recommendations, further ideas, or just say this guy is a lunatic.

I know this procedure might be a bit tedious and time consuming, ...but hey,...are we in a hurry?

Okay, this guy is a lunatic! But that doesn't mean it isn't an interesting idea. If lunacy and HT audio were mutually exclusive, we probably wouldn't have subwoofers capable of playing ULF at Reference, or near Reference, volumes.

It would be a pretty time-consuming exercise, but it would be interesting to see if it yielded appreciably better real world results than a more randomized pattern, concentrating in the same seating area. I hope somebody tries it sometime and reports the results.
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post #897 of 7180 Old 08-08-2016, 03:23 PM
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If there's anything that you feel is still unanswered, let me know!
I do have one, regarding sub distance tweak.

I decided to give up on audyssey in favor of Dirac because of inflexibility to manipulate frequency curve, particularly to disable any EQ for high frequencies.
I have Dirac software on HTPC plugged in Denon AVR via HDMI.
My issue is when to apply sub distance tweak(s).
Here are the current steps I came up with:

1. Reset sub to default state
2. Run Audyssey only because it will set default distances/levels
3. Turn Audyssey EQ Curve off
4. Do sub distance tweak wtih crossover at 80 Hz (predicted best setting so far)
5. Set all speakers to large and LFE mode to sub + mains and also set LPF to highest value. This is so Dirac can measure all speakers+sub full range (otherwise it would measure crossover slope)
6. Run Dirac calibration
7. Set speakers to small and apply crossovers (if necessary, never used Dirac multichannel version so I don't know yet how it handles that)
7. Measure results and do sub tweak again if necessary.

My question is, is step (4) redundant, so I should only do sub distance tweak after full calibration + settings are done?

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post #898 of 7180 Old 08-08-2016, 03:39 PM
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Okay, this guy is a lunatic! But that doesn't mean it isn't an interesting idea. If lunacy and HT audio were mutually exclusive, we probably wouldn't have subwoofers capable of playing ULF at Reference, or near Reference, volumes.

It would be a pretty time-consuming exercise, but it would be interesting to see if it yielded appreciably better real world results than a more randomized pattern, concentrating in the same seating area. I hope somebody tries it sometime and reports the results.
Wouldn't be too time consuming, just take 10 second sweeps and measure in a predictable pattern so you don't have to write/memorize much.
I did actually something similar today, took a bunch of random measurements in seating area because of inconsistencies i get in 90-200 Hz range.
From my experience, below 90 Hz I had pretty consistent results, except for occasional broader bump somewhere in that range. In 90-200 Hz range I had 3 dips that varied in position and size depending on mic location.
I will have some more fun with it, so far I only concluded that it might be good to move sofa few inches back for better response.
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post #899 of 7180 Old 08-08-2016, 03:52 PM
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While Alan wasn't here on AVS for most of the weekend, I did some thinking to myself and came up with something new. Well, ...new to me, maybe it has been brought up on AVS on other threads, so here goes................
I agree with Mike, I think you're on to something here Feri!

I may or may not take out the time to try this sometime in the not too distant future.
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post #900 of 7180 Old 08-08-2016, 03:55 PM
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My question is, is step (4) redundant, so I should only do sub distance tweak after full calibration + settings are done?
I do not use Dirac, but it makes sense to me that doing the distance tweak last would be the most logical way to go about it. Probably unnecessary to do it twice.
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