"Official" Audyssey thread Part II - Page 83 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2461 of 8402 Old 03-07-2017, 06:12 AM
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MultEq front channel level too low

I am having a strange issue with Audyssey MultEq (6 measurement positions) on a Denon AVR 2309: The levels of all 3 front channels are consistently being set about 3db too low when compared with results obtained using a test DVD. Just using the Audyssey results clearly sounds off compared to the DVD results, which are balanced much better.

Any idea what may be going wrong here? I don't mind balancing levels manually and the measured speaker distances are more or less ok. However, I am wondering if any measurement issue may be impacting the frequency domain, which is harder to fix manually.
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post #2462 of 8402 Old 03-07-2017, 07:19 AM
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Speakers aimed at the main listening position?
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post #2463 of 8402 Old 03-07-2017, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by anothermib View Post
I am having a strange issue with Audyssey MultEq (6 measurement positions) on a Denon AVR 2309: The levels of all 3 front channels are consistently being set about 3db too low when compared with results obtained using a test DVD. Just using the Audyssey results clearly sounds off compared to the DVD results, which are balanced much better.

Any idea what may be going wrong here? I don't mind balancing levels manually and the measured speaker distances are more or less ok. However, I am wondering if any measurement issue may be impacting the frequency domain, which is harder to fix manually.
Hi,

I don't think there is quite enough information in your post to assess the issue. First, is this a 5.1 system? When you say that the results in the front three channels sound off, what do you mean? Off compared to what? If they sound relatively softer than the surround channels, are you using DEQ? That matters, because DEQ boosts the surround channels.

I am trying to determine whether it is only the front three channels that Audyssey may be measuring incorrectly, and if so how you know? FWIW, there is some potential error factor (up to +/- 3db) inherent in an Audyssey microphone, and also in an uncalibrated SPL meter. Calibrated SPL meters may be as low as about +/- 1.5db. But, regardless of potential error factor from a microphone, the Audyssey microphone will typically set all channels accurately, in relation to each other. So, all channels will be set at 73db, or 75db, or 77db, for instance, as measured at the MLP. Are you sure that's not happening here?

Regards,
Mike
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post #2464 of 8402 Old 03-07-2017, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I don't think there is quite enough information in your post to assess the issue. First, is this a 5.1 system? When you say that the results in the front three channels sound off, what do you mean? Off compared to what? If they sound relatively softer than the surround channels, are you using DEQ? That matters, because DEQ boosts the surround channels.

I am trying to determine whether it is only the front three channels that Audyssey may be measuring incorrectly, and if so how you know? FWIW, there is some potential error factor (up to +/- 3db) inherent in an Audyssey microphone, and also in an uncalibrated SPL meter. Calibrated SPL meters may be as low as about +/- 1.5db. But, regardless of potential error factor from a microphone, the Audyssey microphone will typically set all channels accurately, in relation to each other. So, all channels will be set at 73db, or 75db, or 77db, for instance, as measured at the MLP. Are you sure that's not happening here?

Regards,
Mike
Thanks for coming back to me. Let me try to answer the questions individualy.
The front speakers are angled towards the MLP, but not really directly aiming at it.
It is a 7.1 setup.
All surround channels are much louder than the front channels. The individual offset varies a bit, but it is always substantial.
The sound is clearly not "right" in the Audyssey setting. When I use a calibration DVD that can give (pink noise) signals to the individual channels to adjust the levels - it results in a much more balanced sound.
I wouldn't mind +-3db in absolute power as long it affects all channels by the same amount.
DEQ is turned on. Does that lift the full spectrum of the satellites?
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post #2465 of 8402 Old 03-07-2017, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by anothermib View Post
Thanks for coming back to me. Let me try to answer the questions individualy.
The front speakers are angled towards the MLP, but not really directly aiming at it.
It is a 7.1 setup.
All surround channels are much louder than the front channels. The individual offset varies a bit, but it is always substantial.
The sound is clearly not "right" in the Audyssey setting. When I use a calibration DVD that can give (pink noise) signals to the individual channels to adjust the levels - it results in a much more balanced sound.
I wouldn't mind +-3db in absolute power as long it affects all channels by the same amount.
DEQ is turned on. Does that lift the full spectrum of the satellites?
DEQ boosts the surrounds. Turn that off and your problem will go away.
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post #2466 of 8402 Old 03-07-2017, 10:03 AM
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Yes, you pinpointed the culprit correctly. Thanks. I just checked - turning DEQ off leads to balaced levels when using the calibration DVD.
However, I am wondering - is DEQ supposed to add that much to the surrounds even at high output levels (e.g. -10db volume setting)? Or ist that an indication of something else being wrong?
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post #2467 of 8402 Old 03-07-2017, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by anothermib View Post
Thanks for coming back to me. Let me try to answer the questions individualy.
The front speakers are angled towards the MLP, but not really directly aiming at it.
It is a 7.1 setup.
All surround channels are much louder than the front channels. The individual offset varies a bit, but it is always substantial.
The sound is clearly not "right" in the Audyssey setting. When I use a calibration DVD that can give (pink noise) signals to the individual channels to adjust the levels - it results in a much more balanced sound.
I wouldn't mind +-3db in absolute power as long it affects all channels by the same amount.
DEQ is turned on. Does that lift the full spectrum of the satellites?
You are very welcome! You might benefit from reading the Audyssey FAQ, linked in my signature. DEQ does two things. First, it boosts the bass (and the upper treble) in all of the channels, by about 2.2db per -5 MV. So, at a listening level of -10, for instance, DEQ would boost the bass (which we can hear more readily) by about +4.4db. Second, DEQ boosts the volume globally in the surround channels, by about 3db at about -10, or -15, as I recall. And, that can be a real nuisance for some people. In my opinion, the problem with the surround boost is exacerbated with a 7.1 system, as the boosted channels now outnumber the front three channels, which are not boosted.

You may want to experiment with your RLO settings, if you want to continue using DEQ. Or, you may want to turn off DEQ, which is a separate software program, and boost the bass (in just your subs) manually. Some people, who like DEQ, also sometimes just drop the trim levels in their surround channels, by about 3db, and continue to use DEQ. But, this is not a calibration issue--just a DEQ software issue. And, whether or not we choose to employ DEQ, and if so how, is entirely up to the individual user.

Regards,
Mike
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post #2468 of 8402 Old 03-07-2017, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by anothermib View Post
Yes, you pinpointed the culprit correctly. Thanks. I just checked - turning DEQ off leads to balaced levels when using the calibration DVD.
However, I am wondering - is DEQ supposed to add that much to the surrounds even at high output levels (e.g. -10db volume setting)? Or ist that an indication of something else being wrong?
Hi anothermib,

IMHO, even though DEQ does boost surrounds -which some like, some don't - but it seems in your system something might else be wrong. Especially with the case of listening at -10 dB MV.

Mike asked a couple of post ago, so I'll just repeat it: are you using an SLP meter when you are checking levels?
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post #2469 of 8402 Old 03-07-2017, 10:20 AM
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Hi anothermib,

IMHO, even though DEQ does boost surrounds -which some like, some don't - but it seems in your system something might else be wrong. Especially with the case of listening at -10 dB MV.

Mike asked a coulpe of post ago, so I'll jut repeat it: are you using an SLP meter when you are checking levels?
Hi Feri,

It's nice to see you posting. I remember you saying a few months back that you were working hard. Are you usually reading along out there, even though you are not commenting as much lately? I think someone estimated once that the ratio of readers to posters may be about 20 to 1 on a thread like this one.

Regards,
Mike
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post #2470 of 8402 Old 03-07-2017, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Feri,

It's nice to see you posting. I remember you saying a few months back that you were working hard. Are you usually reading along out there, even though you are not commenting as much lately? I think someone estimated once that the ratio of readers to posters may be about 20 to 1 on a thread like this one.

Regards,
Mike
Hi Mike,

Thank for your compliments. Yeah, I do work hard at my new job, but I also try to find time to read along, as well.

This time really curious to see how anothermib's problem gets solved.

@anothermib : Here's a quick experiment I would try to rule out MultEQ and MultEQ+DEQ issues compared to the DVD test tones.

1. Turn down the currently selected "input source level" by 10 dB. This will allow you to turn up the MV all the way to 0 dB ref. without the test tones becoming deafeningly loud. (Look up the procedure in the Manual of your AVR).

2. Now play the test tones off the DVD, toggle between Audyssey off and Audyssey On. Make sure Audyssey = MultEQ + DEQ.) Even though DEQ is on, it ceases all operation at 0 dB MV setting.

3. Do you hear level differences from the three front speakers?

What test DVD are you using?
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post #2471 of 8402 Old 03-07-2017, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Hi anothermib,

IMHO, even though DEQ does boost surrounds -which some like, some don't - but it seems in your system something might else be wrong. Especially with the case of listening at -10 dB MV.

Mike asked a couple of post ago, so I'll just repeat it: are you using an SLP meter when you are checking levels?
Usually I have been checking the channel levels just by listening to the test tones. However, recently I had been using an iPhone app based measurementin addition. I am reluctant to call this an SLP, but it is easily able to pick up the differences between the channels and results are more less consistent with what I hear.
I don't quite believe the absolute numbers. They would indicate that 0db volume equals 90db absolute.
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post #2472 of 8402 Old 03-07-2017, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by anothermib View Post
Yes, you pinpointed the culprit correctly. Thanks. I just checked - turning DEQ off leads to balaced levels when using the calibration DVD.
However, I am wondering - is DEQ supposed to add that much to the surrounds even at high output levels (e.g. -10db volume setting)? Or ist that an indication of something else being wrong?
You can reduce the impact of DEQ by specifying a value for the Reference Level Offset. Setting that to -5db will reduce the effect pretty well, and -10db (or even -15db) will reduce it even more.

Which is best may depend on what level you generally listen at, so its worth trying different settings at different volume levels to see what you like. I generally set it at -5db when I'm running in 'late night' quiet mode.
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post #2473 of 8402 Old 03-07-2017, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post


1. Turn down the currently selected "input source level" by 10 dB. This will allow you to turn up the MV all the way to 0 dB ref. without the test tones becoming deafeningly loud. (Look up the procedure in the Manual of your AVR).

2. Now play the test tones off the DVD, toggle between Audyssey off and Audyssey On. Make sure Audyssey = MultEQ + DEQ.) Even though DEQ is on, it ceases all operation at 0 dB MV setting.

3. Do you hear level differences from the three front speakers?

What test DVD are you using?
When measuring at 0db volume level - using the method you described - the front/back offset goes away even with Audyssey DEQ enabled.

The DVD I am using is the "Heimkino Referenz Test DVD"

Sounds like I need to offset the level reign in the DEQ a bit. I am not sure if there actually is a global parameter for that on the 2309. Is it safe to assume that I can reduce the trim or the source input level instead?
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post #2474 of 8402 Old 03-07-2017, 11:46 AM
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I missed the lat question. There are minor differences among the front channels +-0.5 or 1db max. That is mostly within the variance I am getting when running Audyssey sevaral times.
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post #2475 of 8402 Old 03-07-2017, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by anothermib View Post
When measuring at 0db volume level - using the method you described - the front/back offset goes away even with Audyssey DEQ enabled.
That's good news and indicates there is nothing wrong with your system.

Quote:
The DVD I am using is the "Heimkino Referenz Test DVD"
I don't know this DVD, but for the time being I would refrain from using it. Some DVDs are notorious for having levels messed up. Try using the AVR's internal test tones instead when measuring with your iPhone and see the results. These smart phone apps are good enough for relative measurements. No need to sweat on it too much.

Quote:
Sounds like I need to offset the level reign in the DEQ a bit. I am not sure if there actually is a global parameter for that on the 2309. Is it safe to assume that I can reduce the trim or the source input level instead?
Since your Denon AVR-2309 does not have the RLO (reference level offset) feature, your only option for a work-around to get the same result is to turn down the "input source level" by 5 dB or 10 dB and listen carefully. Please remember, movies (DVD and Blu-ray) are supposed to be recorded to known level standards, while music (CD) may be all over the map and need even more attention recording by recording.

I wouldn't touch the channel trims set by Audyssey, though. And then, take a real life experiment and toss in a Blu-ray disk. Especially try to listen carefully to the Center speaker and see how you are satisfied with dialog intelligibility. If all goes well, have a beer, a cold one!
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post #2476 of 8402 Old 03-07-2017, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by anothermib View Post
I am having a strange issue with Audyssey MultEq (6 measurement positions) on a Denon AVR 2309: The levels of all 3 front channels are consistently being set about 3db too low when compared with results obtained using a test DVD. Just using the Audyssey results clearly sounds off compared to the DVD results, which are balanced much better.

Any idea what may be going wrong here? I don't mind balancing levels manually and the measured speaker distances are more or less ok. However, I am wondering if any measurement issue may be impacting the frequency domain, which is harder to fix manually.
You're comparing apples with oranges. or at least comparing 2 different varieties of apple.

You're comparing results from 2 different test signals, actually different test signal types, and each of them is being measured with a different mic. There's almost certainly going to be different levels reported. I don't know what the specs on the Audyssey mic and whatever you used to measure the DVD tones are but the Audyssey mic is likely to operate within a +/- 2 or 3 dB range and whatever you used with the DVD tones is likely similar in which case you could end up with up to a 6dB difference between the readings from both mics if you were measuring exactly the same test tone at the same time, and the tones are different. The Audyssey tones are a very fast pulse while the DVD tones are a continuous white or pink noise. You were probably using a handheld meter of some kind to measure the DVD tones and meters have options for settings like fast or slow averaging and you'll get a difference if you change that setting while measuring the DVD tones. I'd say the difference in your results is well within the acceptable range given what you're measuring and what you're measuring it with.

As for the difference in sound between the results, if you're adjusting the trims set by Audyssey afterwards based on the results from your DVD measurements, then you're probably ending up with a slightly higher level output when you listen with the adjusted trims and it's been shown that if people compare the sound of the same thing and one of the comparison samples is slightly higher in level than the other but otherwise both samples are identical, people consistently prefer the louder sample. If you're not matching playback levels exactly for your comparison and the playback with your DVD based trims is slightly higher than Audyssey, then you will prefer the sound with the DVD trims. Try turning the master volume up a little when listening with the Audyssey settings and you may find yourself preferring the Audyssey setting. If you do then volume differences are likely playing a part,

And if you're comparing the sound with Audyssey on with Audyssey settings to Audyssey off with the DVD based settings, you've got another difference. If you aren't used to listening to sound with correction you may well prefer the uncorrected sound because of differences in the tonal character. When we compare sound and there's a difference in tonal character we often tend to prefer the sound we're familiar with but if we persevere with the other sound, listen with it for several days to a week or so and become familiar with it and then swap back to the other, we can find ourselves preferring the sound we were initially unfamiliar with so you may have to take the time to get used to Audyssey before deciding whether you prefer it or not. And in the end each of us has different listening preferences anyway. Not everyone prefers the sound with Audyssey and you may be one of the people who doesn't prefer it.

So, there's nothing surprising or unusual in you getting different results from your different setup procedures or in your reactions to the differences you hear when using different settings, and nothing is probably wrong. You're listening to 2 different things and if you hear a difference—which you do—then you are going to prefer one over the other. Which one you prefer is going to depend on whether one is slightly louder than the other, whether there are other differences and Audyssey does make changes in both the frequency and time domain, and then there's the issue of familiarity and personal preference.

My advice would be to just do the Audyssey setup and then listen with those results for a week or so to get used to it. If you still aren't happy with it then try adjusting the sub level by raising the sub trim settings a bit because many of us find Audyssey sets the subs a little lower than we prefer and many raise the sub setting by 3 to 5 dB. You can also experiment by changing between the Audyssey Flat and Audyssey Reference settings and with Dynamic EQ on or off. I would leave Dynamic Volume off. If you can't get a result you like that way, then try turning Audyssey off without adjusting the trim settings and just try listening with Audyssey off and adjusting the master volume to your preference. After trying those things, if you're still unhappy then perhaps you're one of the people who doesn't find Audyssey's results match their sound preferences in which case just set things manually using your DVD results and enjoy that.

The other thing to remember is that Audyssey bases it's results on a series of measurements at different positions. The number of measurements you make and the spacing of the different positions does make a difference. You can also experiment with fewer or more measurements and with more closely and more distantly placed measurement positions and that may well give you some very different results with Audyssey but I'd start with the things I suggested in the previous paragraph before considering embarking on a series of experiments varying the number of measurements you make and your microphone placement pattern because that can become a time consuming process. When I first tried using Audyssey it took me a number of different measurement runs before I found a measurement procedure which worked for me and it took me a while to adjust to the difference in sound with Audyssey. I ended up preferring results with Audyssey but it took me a few days to come to appreciate it.

Edit: Didn't see the responses above, all of which make good points, before posting the above. There's some other tips in them which are also good but I've left my original response untouched because it provides a bit of background on why you're seeing measurement differences, and because it also covers why you may have a preference for one result over the other and you may find something helpful in there.
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post #2477 of 8402 Old 03-07-2017, 12:41 PM
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I will probably start with a 5db offset and take it from there. Generally video sources have been less of an issue, it was mostly music that didn't sound right. Hopefully I will find a level that works for both as there isnt really a good separation dependent on the input source.

Thanks again everyone for pointing me in the right direction. I would not have suspected the DEQ otherwise.
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post #2478 of 8402 Old 03-07-2017, 01:43 PM
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I will probably start with a 5db offset and take it from there. Generally video sources have been less of an issue, it was mostly music that didn't sound right. Hopefully I will find a level that works for both as there isnt really a good separation dependent on the input source.

Thanks again everyone for pointing me in the right direction. I would not have suspected the DEQ otherwise.
Ah, so, it's music that just doesn't want to cut in, right? No wonder.

Please allow me to share some of my thoughts when it comes to playing back music on a multi-channel modern AVR with Audyssey on-board as follows:

1. We all know by now that film is recorded to known level standards while music industry has no such guidelines, every sound engineer in the music recording studio does what they think is right. Or in other words, with film DEQ knows how to reset/adjust tonal and surround level balance when the MV is turned down for a comfortable home listening volume, typically way below the 0 dB ref. level of the cinema sound (-10 to -20dB). Yet, music is recorded much more loud than film, so DEQ easily gets thrown off when it comes to recover spectral balance in the high and low department and also in the surround boost department. The more recent the music recording is, the higher the recording level will be. Try to google "loudness war" for more indepth info.

2. When we listen to music on our AVRs with that loudness war effect in mind we will have no way but to start to turn down the Master Volume. Once we do that DEQ will start to boost high & lows and will also start to increase surround levels. Sometimes it can result in an abnormal listening anomaly our ears will not tolerate.

3. What can we do? In my case I have all my music on PC and use a program called Foobar where there is a feature called "Replay Gain" that allows me to adjust the playback level of music before it enters the AVR. It works for me like a charm.

YMMV.
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post #2479 of 8402 Old 03-07-2017, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by anothermib View Post
I am having a strange issue with Audyssey MultEq (6 measurement positions) on a Denon AVR 2309: The levels of all 3 front channels are consistently being set about 3db too low when compared with results obtained using a test DVD. Just using the Audyssey results clearly sounds off compared to the DVD results, which are balanced much better.

Any idea what may be going wrong here? I don't mind balancing levels manually and the measured speaker distances are more or less ok. However, I am wondering if any measurement issue may be impacting the frequency domain, which is harder to fix manually.
Are you using a meter to measure these levels, or is this by ear?

Denon x4400h, Samsung LED 1080p TV, B&W 704 mains, two M&K subwoofers, Oppo 103, Roku 2, Darbeevision, etc.
Headphone system: Focal Clear, Sennheiser HD600, AKG K702, Hifiman HE-400i, Marantz HD-DAC1, Denon DVD-3910
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post #2480 of 8402 Old 03-07-2017, 06:05 PM
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I will probably start with a 5db offset and take it from there. Generally video sources have been less of an issue, it was mostly music that didn't sound right. Hopefully I will find a level that works for both as there isnt really a good separation dependent on the input source.

Thanks again everyone for pointing me in the right direction. I would not have suspected the DEQ otherwise.
Just wanted to chime in on the music listening topic. I was running Audyssey in bypass L/R for a long time with music, but I recently switched my AVR into pure direct mode. For me, it's a big improvement. The one downside is that I lose the sub, but I have floorstanders that do reasonably well with bass. IMO, they just sound a lot better this way. When I set them to small and cross them over, they sound thinner and harsher.
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Ah, so, it's music that just doesn't want to cut in, right? No wonder.

...

3. What can we do? In my case I have all my music on PC and use a program called Foobar where there is a feature called "Replay Gain" that allows me to adjust the playback level of music before it enters the AVR. It works for me like a charm.

YMMV.
Perhaps I need to look into something like that as well. Though I always stayed clear of things that try to change the volume (and I would certainly not have considered using a program called "foobar" to tune my music ). I believe Spotify has a similar option in some clients.

In general I was always convinced that an Amp needs some sort of "loudness" function. The amp is the only thing that knows at which level I have the volume knob - so in an ideal world no other instance should attempt to add loudness. I was just entirely unaware of the fact that DEq still does _a lot_ even at reasonably high volumes like -20 or -10db. Adding 3db times 4 speakers is a lot of additional dBs - let alone what it does in the frequency domain. So I went from mostly ignoring DEq to considering it being a "loose cannon" in the last 24h. However, thanks to the forum I am at least aware of what is actually going on.
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Originally Posted by In.vincible View Post
Just wanted to chime in on the music listening topic. I was running Audyssey in bypass L/R for a long time with music, but I recently switched my AVR into pure direct mode. For me, it's a big improvement. The one downside is that I lose the sub, but I have floorstanders that do reasonably well with bass. IMO, they just sound a lot better this way. When I set them to small and cross them over, they sound thinner and harsher.
Actually I don't hear a huge differece between Audyssey and Bypass L/R. I always attributed this to the fact that the speakers are pretty good already and Audyssey avoiding having an adverse effect. When turning off DEq even the difference between Audyssey on and off is getting more subtle. It seems to focus mostly on making the bass more precise, which may be correcting room effects. With DEq off the most pronounced difference seems to be between "flat" and all other settings.

I know most purists will frown at my habit of listening to music in 7.1. Over the years I just got used to having sound come from all directions and that is hard to change. Whenever I try the the pure Stereo approach I like it, but when switching over to 7.1 I find this just a bit more interesting and fun. Having said this, my impression is that it really is 10 times harder to make 7.1 music sound good since so many things can go wrong.
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Actually I don't hear a huge differece between Audyssey and Bypass L/R. I always attributed this to the fact that the speakers are pretty good already and Audyssey avoiding having an adverse effect. When turning off DEq even the difference between Audyssey on and off is getting more subtle. It seems to focus mostly on making the bass more precise, which may be correcting room effects. With DEq off the most pronounced difference seems to be between "flat" and all other settings.

I know most purists will frown at my habit of listening to music in 7.1. Over the years I just got used to having sound come from all directions and that is hard to change. Whenever I try the the pure Stereo approach I like it, but when switching over to 7.1 I find this just a bit more interesting and fun. Having said this, my impression is that it really is 10 times harder to make 7.1 music sound good since so many things can go wrong.
Hi,

If purists do want to frown, they will have to frown at both of us. I consider myself a bit of a purist, but then I also liked quadraphonic sound, although it was never quite perfected. With more modern tools, such as PLIIx, we are able to achieve a much more realistic music environment than I was ever able to achieve with two-channel stereo. And, I'm not a purist about faithfully listening to a two-channel recording. My sole interest is in increasing the apparent realism of the musical experience.

I typically refrain from commenting much about DEQ, out of regard for some of my friends on the thread who really like it, but I don't, particularly. I never used it for music, and eventually found alternatives I preferred for movies, as well. My room is fairly well treated to reduce ringing, and I don't have very strident sounding tweeters, so I also prefer Audyssey Flat. I think that your assessment of what Audyssey does best is spot-on. In my opinion, Audyssey, including XT-32, is at its best in clarifying bass and some mid-range frequencies. And, it may take some user effort, in the form of good setup, and good calibration technique, to prevent Audyssey from doing anything unfortunate with respect to higher frequencies.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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Hello everyone!!!

I just started getting into audio and learning all the nuances and ins and outs of setting up my home theater. It has been fun but I am a little confused about running the Audyssey setup......and the more I read the worse it gets and I am probably doing it to myself. Anyway, here is my issue/question. I just realized that my Marantz SR5011 defaults my fronts to large...and I am running a sub LFE in my setup. So, I am going to change my fronts in my AVR to smalls and rerun Audyssey. Is that the proper way to do it? From my understanding Audyssey will set crossovers based on my room dimensions and accoustics. Do I leave them that way or do I change them to the 80Hz that is referenced as the baseline? I have also read that crossover is based alot on listening preference, but I just want to make sure that whatever the Audyssey setup is (with whatever crossovers it sets) will allow me to hear all audio and give the best sub woofer performance. Thanks for any info and help in this matter!
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So I just found the answer to all my concerns by reading the Audyssey FAQ link in the post above mine....sorry for wasting the space. Thanks Mike for posting that FAQ.
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post #2486 of 8402 Old 03-09-2017, 05:23 PM
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Hi Everyone,


You may remember me as the person that was perplexed with some of the Audyssey results related to my Canton tower speakers and my LS50 center channel. Well... I went ahead and purchased a couple of subwoofers based on recommendations here (Mike & Gary in particular). I ordered two SVS SB12-NSD subwoofers. The SVS sub was still available at a clearance price and was also very compact, which was important because I don't have much room and I prefer to place the sub(s) in the front soundstage.


I have been trying to figure out where I can place the subwoofers and still keep my Canton towers. One thought was to stack (vertically) the two subs. I asked for some feedback about stacking in the subwoofer thread but the answers were not consistent and some were a little rude. So I had another idea and, though this is not really an Audyssey related question, I thought I would get better feedback here. But I am curious if Audyssey would have a problem with this placement.


A bit of a crazy idea, but would there be any significant drawbacks to placing the subwoofer on a large fireplace mantel (see photo taken from my main seat) ? The mantel sits about 4.5 feet above the floor and I have an outlet and a coax jack above the mantel. I thought it would be easy to swap the coax for a subwoofer cable but I could not find where the cable enters the basement. The only other drawback for me is that I would need to find a new home for a few decorative nick nacks that I had on the mantel. Otherwise, I really like how the sub looks perched on the mantel.
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Hi Everyone,


You may remember me as the person that was perplexed with some of the Audyssey results related to my Canton tower speakers and my LS50 center channel. Well... I went ahead and purchased a couple of subwoofers based on recommendations here (Mike & Gary in particular). I ordered two SVS SB12-NSD subwoofers. The SVS sub was still available at a clearance price and was also very compact, which was important because I don't have much room and I prefer to place the sub(s) in the front soundstage.


I have been trying to figure out where I can place the subwoofers and still keep my Canton towers. One thought was to stack (vertically) the two subs. I asked for some feedback about stacking in the subwoofer thread but the answers were not consistent and some were a little rude. So I had another idea and, though this is not really an Audyssey related question, I thought I would get better feedback here. But I am curious if Audyssey would have a problem with this placement.


A bit of a crazy idea, but would there be any significant drawbacks to placing the subwoofer on a large fireplace mantel (see photo taken from my main seat) ? The mantel sits about 4.5 feet above the floor and I have an outlet and a coax jack above the mantel. I thought it would be easy to swap the coax for a subwoofer cable but I could not find where the cable enters the basement. The only other drawback for me is that I would need to find a new home for a few decorative nick nacks that I had on the mantel. Otherwise, I really like how the sub looks perched on the mantel.
Hi Sean,

I'm sorry that you didn't get the help you were looking for elsewhere. Most of the people who post on this thread make an effort to be both civil and helpful, so I think you can expect to do a little better here.

Audyssey would still EQ your system, irrespective of your subwoofer placement. The main issue with stacking your subwoofers is that, although you would get the benefit of a doubling in subwoofer capacity, you wouldn't get any benefit from the standpoint of improving your frequency response. Both stacked subwoofers would interact with the room in exactly the same way, and you might just as well have bought a single more powerful subwoofer. You need to be able to spread your subs out a bit to get the real benefit of having dual subs.

I see why you like the mantle idea, and I don't think it's crazy at all. I would probably pull it forward a few more inches, if you can, so that it isn't pushed quite as far into the corner. But, that will just take a little trial-and-error to find out exactly where in the corner it sounds the best. Located as it is, you will be getting excellent boundary reinforcement from the opposing walls, ceiling, and mantle. That will enable that sub to play louder, and to hit lower frequencies. You just don't want it to sound boomy in the process, so listen for that.

As for the sub on the floor, your current location may work fine, but I am guessing that if you can get it a little further away, and ideally to the other side of your entertainment center, it might improve the overall sound quality. That's just a guess, so if you think it works well where it is, then it probably does. If you want to post a couple of pictures showing more of the room, it will help with respect to potential alternative suggestions. For, instance, a location on a rough diagonal, with the sub on the mantle, might work very well. It could still be on the floor, but opposing corners often work quite well.

I'm glad you got the subs! I think you will really enjoy having them. And, just continue to ask questions, if you need any help with placement, or with your Audyssey calibration.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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DEQ behavior above RL

Hi, another quick question on DEQ (for some reason I'm not able to reach the Audyssey page on the topic).
Most documents talk about the effect DEQ has on low volume and I understand that DEQ doesn't do anything at RL, but what happens above that? Will it continue to decrease surround volume and the high and low end of the spectrum? I guess most of the time one would stay below RL anyway. However, e.g. with a RLO of 15dB one could be above it at times.
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Hi, another quick question on DEQ (for some reason I'm not able to reach the Audyssey page on the topic).
Most documents talk about the effect DEQ has on low volume and I understand that DEQ doesn't do anything at RL, but what happens above that? Will it continue to decrease surround volume and the high and low end of the spectrum? I guess most of the time one would stay below RL anyway. However, e.g. with a RLO of 15dB one could be above it at times.
Hi,

That's not quite how DEQ works. There is a thorough explanation of DEQ, in the Audyssey FAQ, linked in my signature. At Reference, DEQ would not be doing anything at all. At above Reference volume levels, DEQ would actually reduce bass and treble frequencies slightly. Presumably the ratio would still be about 2.2db per 5db of MV. So, at +5 MV, for instance, there would be a 2.2db reduction in bass and upper treble frequencies. I believe that if you applied an RLO setting of -15, at above Reference master volumes, it would just attenuate the decrease slightly.

DEQ's operation above Reference is essentially a mirror image of its operation below Reference.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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Hi,

That's not quite how DEQ works. There is a thorough explanation of DEQ, in the Audyssey FAQ, linked in my signature. At Reference, DEQ would not be doing anything at all. At above Reference volume levels, DEQ would actually reduce bass and treble frequencies slightly. Presumably the ratio would still be about 2.2db per 5db of MV. So, at +5 MV, for instance, there would be a 2.2db reduction in bass and upper treble frequencies. I believe that if you applied an RLO setting of -15, at above Reference master volumes, it would just attenuate the decrease slightly.

DEQ's operation above Reference is essentially a mirror image of its operation below Reference.

Regards,
Mike
Jutst to make sure I understand that correctly. Setting the RLO to -15dB moves the point at which DEQ does nothing. It would not change the rate of change above or below that point - would it?
When you say "mirror image" does that include the notion that above RL the volume of the surround channels would be decreased compared to the front?
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