"Official" Audyssey thread Part II - Page 94 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2791 of 6758 Old 04-05-2017, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by krholmberg View Post
With the Galaxy S8 and LG G6 coming out in the next few weeks .....

The G6 came out last week.
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post #2792 of 6758 Old 04-05-2017, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
This may just be me, but ... if you move your REW line so it goes right through the RED curve at 1kHz (the conventional place for the so-called "0" line), the 3 to 10K range will appear to be rather flat, rather than boosted. If you would like, you can evaluate the BLUE curve the same way, but, naturally, 1K has a different elevation on the Blue curve; you can put the line through the 1K point for the blue curve to look at the Pure-Direct results re: 1K

I wonder what it would look and sound like with Audyssey Flat?
Thanks. You mean something like this? I wasn't sure where that REW line was supposed to go...
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post #2793 of 6758 Old 04-05-2017, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by In.vincible View Post
Thanks. You mean something like this? I wasn't sure where that REW line was supposed to go...
Yes.
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post #2794 of 6758 Old 04-05-2017, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by In.vincible View Post
Thanks. You mean something like this? I wasn't sure where that REW line was supposed to go...
Yes, like that. There is no boost, compared to flat, above 400 Hz on your RED curve, but appreciable boost below 400..

I think you can check boxes on REW, then click on "overlay" to have your RED and BLUE curves superimposed to better compare them (I haven't used REW in several years).

The small dip at 90 Hz might or might not be correctable with your bass control, which affects only the LF and RF. I use the bass control to cause the bass from about 80 to 150 Hz to gradually rise and meet the level of the boosted subwoofer at the 80 Hz crossover.

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post #2795 of 6758 Old 04-05-2017, 03:15 PM
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So, my, uh, 2016 Denon avr 4520ci will be able to use this, right?

Nope, and the 4520 is a circa 2015 AVR.
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post #2796 of 6758 Old 04-05-2017, 03:19 PM
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does it matter when measuring/testing if microphones are stereo or mono. I would think we could learn more by measuring in stereo...

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post #2797 of 6758 Old 04-05-2017, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
does it matter when measuring/testing if microphones are stereo or mono. I would think we could learn more by measuring in stereo...
What do you want to measure/test?

If you're doing system setup and balancing speaker levels, you're measuring one speaker at a time and during the Audyssey setup you're measuring each speaker in up to 8 different locations. There's nothing to gain from measuring in stereo because stereo measurements would only measure 2 positions simultaneously and there would be differences in the result you got from each mic due to slight differences in mic response and differences due to the difference in location of each mic since the setup process uses 8 measurements and uses the delay between the signal being sent to the speaker and the signal being received from the mic to measure time delay which is used for distance calculation. Getting 2 results as you would from a stereo mic setup wouldn't give you a clear figure for the delay You get more precise information from measuring in mono and more information from taking measurements in a number of locations. That's why the setup process uses a mono mic which we place in a series of different positions.

If Audyssey thought that the measurement process for setup could be improved by using a stereo mic they would provide a stereo mic instead of a mono mic for use during setup.

There may be things which are best measured in stereo but the sorts of things measured during the setup process aren't amongst them.
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post #2798 of 6758 Old 04-05-2017, 04:02 PM
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I know the make/sell stereo mics. just makes sense to me that you would rather measure closer to what you hear. unless of course you only have 1 ear.

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post #2799 of 6758 Old 04-05-2017, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
I know the make/sell stereo mics. just makes sense to me that you would rather measure closer to what you hear. unless of course you only have 1 ear.
OK, 2 things you need to consider.

First, setup is not about measuring what you hear, it's about measuring what the frequency and phase response is in a number of positions. It's about measuring what the room does to the sound rather than about how you hear the sound.

Second, the software for Audyssey and other room setup processes is written for use with a mono mic. The input socket you plug the mic into is also probably wired for mono input. If the software and mic input isn't specifically designed for stereo input, stereo input is not going to help the measurement process. With Audyssey, the software assumes you're using the supplied Audyssey mic. The software is optimised for the mic supplied and if you use a different mic you will not get optimum results. The software would need to be rewritten to take account of the characteristics of other mics in order to utilise them correctly and it isn't. There is no provision for telling the software that you are using a different mic or for changing the operation of the software in order to match it to other mics.

If the software is written for use with a specific mic, and the Audyssey software is, then you will only get the intended result if you use the specified mic.

There are audio measurement programs which make provision for the choice of other mics and you can use that software to balance your speaker levels but then you have to use the manual setup option, not the Audyssey setup option, and there is no provision for transferring frequency and phase information from other mics to the Audyssey processor. Even if there are theoretical advantages to making stereo measurements for setup purposes, and I don't think there are, there is no way to utilise measurements made with a stereo mic setup in Audyssey.
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post #2800 of 6758 Old 04-05-2017, 04:53 PM
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Things are sounding pretty good. Some of it may be due to the new amp which is pushing more power to the speakers (and whatever other magic it's doing), but music is sounding good. I got the Audyssey app and re-ran the calibration. One thing I noticed right away was that it set the sub to -5.5. When I ran it last night without the app, it set it to -8 dB. At any rate, I think it sounds better with more bass, so whatever. Other than that, speaker levels came out about the same, and the REW measurement looked similar.

There are a few options in the app, but I ultimately decided to leave things pretty much as is. The one thing I did was change the high freq. rolloff from version 1 to version 2, which supposedly applies a bit more rolloff for medium to large rooms.

Other than that, I turned on DEQ, set ref. offset to 10 dB, and boosted the sub by +4 dB. So far, I like what I'm hearing. Not sure how much going from MultEQ to XT32 changed the high end, but it really tamed a big bass peak that MultEQ couldn't. DEQ seems to work well even for music now that the bass peak is smoothed a bit.

Here is where I was with my Marantz NR1403 with MultEQ:



And here is where I'm at with the 6011 with XT32. Blue line is rolloff 1 and red is rolloff option 2.

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anyone have a recommendation for a great guide on how to interpret the different info the graphs of rew provide? for example, in the attached rew graph, what does it all mean? should I try to get the left to match the right? when I ran this test was a couple years ago and was only focused on a null I had around 40hz and 80hz...but I am sure there is more to deduce, just really dont know what I am suppose to do with the info.
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post #2802 of 6758 Old 04-05-2017, 05:16 PM
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Search REW in the forums,
there are threads discussing Rew that will help more.

Why waste $ on more cheap stuff, it's like challenging a dragon with a pocket knife.
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post #2803 of 6758 Old 04-05-2017, 05:20 PM
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yea, they just too long to weed thru. I mean 2000 pages plus...just looking for something visual, maybe like a powerpoint. no big deal, I can search I guess.

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post #2804 of 6758 Old 04-05-2017, 05:23 PM
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I can hardly see White background stuff(can hardly see my phone keypad letters) cuz of cataracts(surgery soon). Sorry. You'll learn more anyway. GL

Why waste $ on more cheap stuff, it's like challenging a dragon with a pocket knife.
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post #2805 of 6758 Old 04-05-2017, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by muzz View Post
I can hardly see White background stuff(can hardly see my phone keypad letters) cuz of cataracts(surgery soon). Sorry. You'll learn more anyway. GL
Have you checked out the coming possibility: http://www.webmd.com/eye-health/cata...in-the-works#1

Looks like it hasn't been approved yet so maybe you can't wait however long it takes... I'm hoping its available by the time mine are bad enough to require surgery.

Hopt you come through it well
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post #2806 of 6758 Old 04-05-2017, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
anyone have a recommendation for a great guide on how to interpret the different info the graphs of rew provide? for example, in the attached rew graph, what does it all mean? should I try to get the left to match the right? when I ran this test was a couple years ago and was only focused on a null I had around 40hz and 80hz...but I am sure there is more to deduce, just really dont know what I am suppose to do with the info.
Someone did put together a guide on the AVS REW forum. I think it was Austin Jerry. EDIT: here it is; Alan put it in his signature: Getting Started with REW

Because your speakers are in two different places in the room, they will produce somewhat different curves.

Did you move the microphone between tests?

Is your room asymmetrical or are the walls each speaker's sound bounces off of very different in liveness or reflectivity?

FWIW, after running Audyssey, my RF and LF curves are fairly different in places in the bass and midrange, but are much better than before Audyssey. Above about 4K they are essentially identical. I haven't figured out why, but I'm not complaining. Have others who have used Audyssey, then measured the results from the MLP with REW, found that the high frequencies from the RF & LF more nearly identical than the midrange and the bass?
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post #2807 of 6758 Old 04-05-2017, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt2026 View Post
Have you checked out the coming possibility: http://www.webmd.com/eye-health/cata..._blank">#1</a>

Looks like it hasn't been approved yet so maybe you can't wait however long it takes... I'm hoping its available by the time mine are bad enough to require surgery.

Hopt you come through it well
Hadn't seen that, I can't wait any longer, even daytime driving is hazardous now. May 9th #1 Woot Woot!

Thanks👍
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post #2808 of 6758 Old 04-05-2017, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
yea, they just too long to weed thru. I mean 2000 pages plus...just looking for something visual, maybe like a powerpoint. no big deal, I can search I guess.
You just have to read this user friendly pdf from @AustinJerry :
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zdhq72a1pu...rsion.pdf?dl=0
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post #2809 of 6758 Old 04-05-2017, 10:32 PM
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About the BBC dip built into the Audyssey curve....it appears my speakers crossover at 4.5 kHz. Since the Audyssey dip is more around 2 kHz, is that going to be a problem? From what I'm hearing so far, it seems fine.
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post #2810 of 6758 Old 04-05-2017, 10:39 PM
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Okay, since I installed all my new speakers and repositioned them because of my wife, the manual calibration did not have a positive effect on the subwoofer. The subwoofer only has good bass while standing, so I guess there are not cancellations in my room. In the weekend I will try to calibrate the system again with the XT32. From there on I will tweak it manually again. The wife thinks that the new speakers are too deep so I was forced to move the couch to the back of the room, which messed the sound up. Does anyone have tips for me with the sub placement or other tips before I calibrate? Here is a picture of my room

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post #2811 of 6758 Old 04-06-2017, 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted by In.vincible View Post
About the BBC dip built into the Audyssey curve....it appears my speakers crossover at 4.5 kHz. Since the Audyssey dip is more around 2 kHz, is that going to be a problem? From what I'm hearing so far, it seems fine.
No problem. Chris K. (of Audyssey) says he's never heard a speaker that wasn't improved by the "midrange compensation" that is part of Audyssey Reference, regardless of where the crossover is. Some here disagree. I'm not sure whether Audyssey credits the BBC dip as the source of the idea. I thought it was the source, but heard some contrary rumors.

I vastly prefer Audyssey FLAT with most program material, which, of course, has no "BBC dip," with an important exception; if there is any significant treble distortion from anywhere, Audyssey Reference, with the dip, tends to reduce it.

I thought the new app gave us the choice of dip or no dip, even with Audyssey Reference.
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post #2812 of 6758 Old 04-06-2017, 12:49 AM
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Okay, since I installed all my new speakers and repositioned them because of my wife, the manual calibration did not have a positive effect on the subwoofer. The subwoofer only has good bass while standing, so I guess there are not cancellations in my room. In the weekend I will try to calibrate the system again with the XT32. From there on I will tweak it manually again. The wife thinks that the new speakers are too deep so I was forced to move the couch to the back of the room, which messed the sound up. Does anyone have tips for me with the sub placement or other tips before I calibrate? Here is a picture of my room
Looks pretty "naked" to me. Might have some nasty room modes and frequency dependent reverbration issues messing with the sound heard.
Some additional furniture, drapery and deco might be of minimum help though...

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post #2813 of 6758 Old 04-06-2017, 01:10 AM
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Looks pretty "naked" to me. Might have some nasty room modes and frequency dependet reverbration times messing with the sound heard.
Some additional furniture, drapery and deco might be of minimum help though...


True, it was not problematic when the couch was closer to the listening position.

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post #2814 of 6758 Old 04-06-2017, 01:11 AM
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Originally Posted by IMWhizzle View Post
Okay, since I installed all my new speakers and repositioned them because of my wife, the manual calibration did not have a positive effect on the subwoofer. The subwoofer only has good bass while standing, so I guess there are not cancellations in my room. In the weekend I will try to calibrate the system again with the XT32. From there on I will tweak it manually again. The wife thinks that the new speakers aretoo deep so I was forced to move the couch to the back of the room, which messed the sound up. Does anyone have tips for me with the sub placement or other tips before I calibrate? Here is a picture of my room
The ceiling to floor dimension can cause cancellations (nulls). The bass could be different in the sitting vs the standing condition because of that.

"From there on I will tweak it manually again." If you mean you'll tweak it by using the graphic sliders, that may remove the XT32 equalization.. Many AVRs & pre/pros will either turn Audyssey off, or require that it be turned off, when the manual virtual graphic sliders are used, unless you go through the base copy (not bass copy!), which is a very crude copy, compared to the hundreds of EQ points Audyssey uses. If you are just using the tone controls (which require DEQ to be off), then there is no problem. If you ever doubt whether Audyssey is still on, look at your Audyssey indicator light, if you have one.
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
The ceiling to floor dimension can cause cancellations (nulls). The bass could be different in the sitting vs the standing condition because of that.

"From there on I will tweak it manually again." If you mean you'll tweak it by using the graphic sliders, that may remove the XT32 equalization.. Many AVRs & pre/pros will either turn Audyssey off, or require that it be turned off, when the manual virtual graphic sliders are used, unless you go through the base copy (not bass copy!), which is a very crude copy, compared to the hundreds of EQ points Audyssey uses. If you are just using the tone controls (which require DEQ to be off), then there is no problem. If you ever doubt whether Audyssey is still on, look at your Audyssey indicator light, if you have one.


Thanks. With manual calibration I meant getting the levels and distances right with my SPL app on my iPhone by Studio Six Digital and tape measure. I don't mean the manual eq with the curve copy.

Anyone has useful tips for the calibration of XT32 in my room, just in case my wife doesn't want to position the couch back on the earlier position.

Sorry for my English. I am from Holland.
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post #2816 of 6758 Old 04-06-2017, 02:41 AM
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Originally Posted by IMWhizzle View Post
Okay, since I installed all my new speakers and repositioned them because of my wife, the manual calibration did not have a positive effect on the subwoofer. The subwoofer only has good bass while standing, so I guess there are not cancellations in my room. In the weekend I will try to calibrate the system again with the XT32. From there on I will tweak it manually again. The wife thinks that the new speakers are too deep so I was forced to move the couch to the back of the room, which messed the sound up. Does anyone have tips for me with the sub placement or other tips before I calibrate? Here is a picture of my room…
The room looks bare but I don't think the bareness is going to be a significant issue for room modes since most carpets and curtains aren't significant absorbers at low frequencies. If the cushions in the sofa are largely foam (looks like they may be) then they may actually provide a bit of bass absorption which could help with bass modes. I know replacing a sofa with a sprung suspension with one with thick foam cushions made a difference to bass response in my room. The bare surfaces, especially the timber floor, are likely to be more of a problem for high frequency reflections.

What is a possible issue for me is the placement of the surround speakers which are very close to the sofa and the bass and midrange drivers of those speakers are pointed directly at the sofa. That may cause some problems. I regularly get a phase error during setup from one of my speakers during setup and I think that's due to proximity to the end of my sofa. If you get phase error messages check your wiring and if they are wired correctly just hit the "Ignore" button. I'd prefer if the surrounds weren't that close and pointing at the sofa but it's hard to see an alternative. It looks like the setup is in a living room and that means compromises are usually necessary, especially when there are other people to consider, so see how it goes. If you can move the surrounds a little further from the sofa that may help.

I'd like to see a bit more rug or carpeting closer to the front speakers to assist with damping the first floor reflection from he front speakers and there's the big glass window area to affect high frequency reflection from the right side wall. Do you normally have the blind up or down when using the system. If you have it up normally, see what you think after running setup and if you're not happy try repeating setup with the blind down, then raise the blind for listening and see how that works.

I think the coffee table may be problematic. It's high with staggered heights, looks like the surfaces are reflective, and you've got china and glass objects on it which are also reflective at high frequencies. Removing the china and glass objects may help, and covering the table with a blanket during the setup process may also help. You may even find covering the table helps during serious listening sessions.

You said "The subwoofer only has good bass while standing, so I guess there are not cancellations in my room" but I think the fact that the bass is only good while standing does indicate an issue but it's hard to be certain about what it is. I'd experiment with temporarily removing the coffee table and using a chair to test seating positions immediately in front of your current seating position to see if you can get better bass by moving the sofa a little bit further. Use a chair to test out different distances rather than moving the sofa, and also test areas behind the sofa while kneeling with your head at your normal seated head height. You may be able to get better bass with a slightly different listening distance. You can also try toeing the sub in to point at the listening position which may have an effect on bass performance or even moving the sub a bit closer to the corner. I'd see if you can do something about getting better bass without Audyssey first before running setup because that will help Audyssey to get a better result.

People tend to make comments about rooms and furnishings but furnishings are a personal matter and living rooms aren't dedicated audio/home theatre spaces, especially if there are other people in the house and the room has to serve several purposes. I'd rather have a room that I like spending time in, even with some acoustic problems, than a room that was acoustically better but that I didn't enjoy being in. Mood definitely helps the listening experience and I don't think it should be ignored so in my experience living rooms and compromises go together. If there are changes to the room you can make which help with the sound, then make them but if making changes causes problems with others in the house then you're better off living with what you've got and keeping others happy rather than having the AV setup becoming a major point of contention and causing problems. Do what you can that is acceptable to others and then tweak the Audyssey results if you need to do so to get a better result. You've got options like using Audyssey Flat or Reference, adjusting the sub trims, leaving DEQ off and using tone controls, and doing things like opening or closing the blind and opening a window with or without the blind down when that's acceptable given the weather. You can get good results in a room with issues but you have to work a little harder to get them. You might ignore small changes that could help if you can make a big one or two but if you can't make the big ones then making as many small changes as possible becomes more important because a number of small improvements can add up to a sizeable improvement in the end.
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post #2817 of 6758 Old 04-06-2017, 03:17 AM
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Originally Posted by IMWhizzle View Post
Okay, since I installed all my new speakers and repositioned them because of my wife, the manual calibration did not have a positive effect on the subwoofer. The subwoofer only has good bass while standing, so I guess there are not cancellations in my room. In the weekend I will try to calibrate the system again with the XT32. From there on I will tweak it manually again. The wife thinks that the new speakers are too deep so I was forced to move the couch to the back of the room, which messed the sound up. Does anyone have tips for me with the sub placement or other tips before I calibrate? Here is a picture of my room
Hi,

Several others have already commented on possible mid-range and high frequency issues, so I will primarily concentrate on the bass. First, I would probably put furniture sliders under the sub to make life easier, and I would try several positions near where it is now. I think that I would move it closer to the wall for one thing. I would also try angling it, or squaring it up in the corner. If none of those options help, I would turn it at right angles, on the wall next to the radiator, so that it faces the TV.

If there is room for it next to the table with the lamp, that might also be a possibility. That would greatly increase your tactile bass for movies. I agree with David that getting your sub into a location where it works well without Audyssey will help when you run XT-32. And, that's mostly trial-and-error to find a good location.

Audyssey should definitely be able to help with your bass frequencies. But, the sheer liveliness of the space from an acoustical standpoint, will limit Audyssey's effectiveness, in my opinion. Recognizing that this is your living room and that aesthetics are important, I would nevertheless try to find some ways to add some softening elements to the space.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #2818 of 6758 Old 04-06-2017, 08:50 AM
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Guys, thanks for the assistance and tips. I will try these out this weekend and report back my findings in this thread. Looks like a challenge!

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post #2819 of 6758 Old 04-06-2017, 09:03 AM
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anyone have a recommendation for a great guide on how to interpret the different info the graphs of rew provide? for example, in the attached rew graph, what does it all mean? should I try to get the left to match the right? when I ran this test was a couple years ago and was only focused on a null I had around 40hz and 80hz...but I am sure there is more to deduce, just really dont know what I am suppose to do with the info.
While Austin Jerry's guide will get you up and running, there really isn't a whole lot of discussion in it of how to actually interpret the results (as you have probably found). There is no primer on this that I'm aware of...the only way I found to learn is to read and participate in the REW threads here on AVS and in the REW section over at the Home Theater Shack forums.
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post #2820 of 6758 Old 04-06-2017, 09:51 AM
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No problem. Chris K. (of Audyssey) says he's never heard a speaker that wasn't improved by the "midrange compensation" that is part of Audyssey Reference, regardless of where the crossover is. Some here disagree. I'm not sure whether Audyssey credits the BBC dip as the source of the idea. I thought it was the source, but heard some contrary rumors.

I vastly prefer Audyssey FLAT with most program material, which, of course, has no "BBC dip," with an important exception; if there is any significant treble distortion from anywhere, Audyssey Reference, with the dip, tends to reduce it.

I thought the new app gave us the choice of dip or no dip, even with Audyssey Reference.
There is an option to turn off the dip in the app. I just ending up leaving mine on since things sounded just a little harsher without it.

For those using the app, or the pro kit, I'm curious to hear if you prefer High Freq. Rolloff 1 or 2. The second option provides a bit more rolloff, which seems good for my room since it's medium-sized and fairly reflective.
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