The "OFFICIAL" 2016 Denon "S-Series" / "X-Series" AVR Owner's Thread + FAQ - Page 288 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #8611 of 17254 Old 08-16-2017, 08:57 AM
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@blackjackmark I've had my 4300 for a week now and so far so good.. loving it. I'm running 7.2 (no atmos).


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post #8612 of 17254 Old 08-16-2017, 09:20 AM
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For anyone interested, I got some new Sewell Silverback banana plugs for my surrounds and my new x4300h. I have room behind the AVR to use them so it made it easier hooking it up. They're actually smaller than the pics online. The two small screws are tedious but secure the wire very well. They're definitely better than my last brand.






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post #8613 of 17254 Old 08-16-2017, 10:00 AM
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Need help with Zone2

I am planning to use my X4300H in 7.2.4 setup with dedicated amp for the 7 channels. I will use the X4300H inbuilt amp for the Atmos height 4 speakers. If I want to use Zone 2 speakers how would I do that since only the height speakers are assignable.

Thanks in advance
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post #8614 of 17254 Old 08-16-2017, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by raistline View Post
The better DAC and better Audyssey calibration are also major pluses. The increased power will likely not matter unless you have a massive room.
Don't the 3300 and 4300 each have the same version of Audyssey? And is the "better" DAC something that will make even a slight difference in sound quality?
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post #8615 of 17254 Old 08-16-2017, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post
Don't the 3300 and 4300 each have the same version of Audyssey? And is the "better" DAC something that will make even a slight difference in sound quality?
The Better Audyssey was in comparison to my x2300, oops.

As for the Better DAC, it could make a difference depending on how good his speakers are and how perceptive he is to audio changes. He might never know the difference, even in a blind A/B test but there is a chance that he could.
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post #8616 of 17254 Old 08-16-2017, 12:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Tarun Koneru View Post
I am planning to use my X4300H in 7.2.4 setup with dedicated amp for the 7 channels. I will use the X4300H inbuilt amp for the Atmos height 4 speakers. If I want to use Zone 2 speakers how would I do that since only the height speakers are assignable.

Thanks in advance
Either use 2CH from the 7CH amp or add another 2CH amp and connect it to the Zone 2 pre-outs.
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post #8617 of 17254 Old 08-16-2017, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post
I'm thinking of picking up an H3300W to drive a pair of Definitive StudioMonitor 55s since I found a nice deal on a refurbed unit. I'm also using a powered Outlaw sub.

I mostly care about music quality at mid-high volume levels, but good performance for movie content is also important. Given that I'm only powering two speakers with the receiver at this point, would there be any benefit to bi-amping? If I don't bi-amp am I leaving unused power on the table as I'm not driving any other channels other than the fronts? Or is all of the available power going to be funneled there regardless? Thanks.
Nope. There's only one power supply so using the passive "bi-amp" feature on the AVR won't provide any real additional power. The speakers will draw whatever power they need to reach the master volume level you have selected.
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post #8618 of 17254 Old 08-16-2017, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by raistline View Post
Because of that any modern receiver you buy is for the most part as future proof as it gets.

You failed to mention the new HDMI standard that was already announced and will be implemented in the next 2 years. Nothing is "future proof"
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post #8619 of 17254 Old 08-16-2017, 01:06 PM
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Received a FW update for the 6300 this morning.

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post #8620 of 17254 Old 08-16-2017, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by jconjason View Post
You failed to mention the new HDMI standard that was already announced and will be implemented in the next 2 years. Nothing is "future proof"
You mean 2.1, that offers 8K 60hz video, 4k 120hz as it's most notable features? I did not mention it because there is no planned 8K video players or streaming service in the near future and 4K 120hz is not much better than 4K 60hz unless you run a PC through it. For once the latest HDMI spec will actually be higher than the demands of the currently available content.

Until 8K is a standard HDMI 2.1 is not yet needed.
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post #8621 of 17254 Old 08-16-2017, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by jconjason View Post
Received a FW update for the 6300 this morning.
What did it update?
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post #8622 of 17254 Old 08-16-2017, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by IKohlbacher View Post
What did it update?
It did not state prior to, or after the update.

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post #8623 of 17254 Old 08-16-2017, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by raistline View Post
You mean 2.1, that offers 8K 60hz video, 4k 120hz as it's most notable features?
Until 8K is a standard HDMI 2.1 is not yet needed.
Sorry but I don't agree with that assessment. I think it's wrong to imply that HDMI2.1 can be dismissed because it's all about 8K and far in the future. Only a few months ago, people were asking (unrealistically) if the 2017 Denons would have it.

HDMI 2.1 will offer, among other things, support for HDR10Plus aka Dynamic metadata for HDR10. Just as people were hopping around wanting the updates for "pass-though" (short-hand for decode-repackage-transmit) of HLG, and dolby vision, so equally, the same applies for HDR10Plus. If you want to be future-proof that means wanting, no demanding, support for all HDR formats from the manufacturers, and rejecting what they want (a "format war" - see https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...-displays.html ). If there isn't the same fuss about pass-through for HDR10Plus as there was for HLG and dolby vision, we've already allowed them to stage a "format war"

HDMI 2.1 will also offer eARC which should matter to any audiophile (ie everyone on this thread) who wants the HD audio formats to be supported rather than 1990's lossy 5.1-max audio over ARC at present (patchy support for DD+ over ARC excepted).

I'd also expect HDMI2.1 to offer proper standardised support for some "missing" 4K picture modes not officially supported by HDMI2.0 which will be very important for 4K Blu-Ray player owners who currently have to ask their player to up-sample to a different mode just to send the picture down the cable. (4K50/60 10-bit 4:2:2, 4K24 10-bit 4:2:2, 4K24 4:2:0). The last of those is the 4K Blu-Ray disc format so people will have a keen interest in sending the unadulterated picture down the cable to allow the TV to do as much or as little processing as the user wants. Presently, they are forced into allowing the player to unpack the chroma sub-sampling.

If some or all of those features are available as firmware upgrade on current/new hardware all the better. They are all features of HDMI2.1.
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post #8624 of 17254 Old 08-16-2017, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Nope. There's only one power supply so using the passive "bi-amp" feature on the AVR won't provide any real additional power. The speakers will draw whatever power they need to reach the master volume level you have selected.
Thanks. I figured as much but wanted to make sure.

Also, I've been toying with the idea of picking up a 4300 instead of a 3300. If I don't much care about any of the additional features/channels on the 4300 is there any reason to believe that it would offer better sound quality? It advertises slightly more watts per channel and a 32 vs 24 bit DAC. Would either of these things make any appreciable difference?

It's tough going finding a direct comparison between the two, but this post claims that the 3300 actually sounds noticeably better, but who knows what could be going on there:

https://www.avforums.com/threads/den...x4300.2096026/

Thanks.
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post #8625 of 17254 Old 08-16-2017, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Sorry but I don't agree with that assessment. I think it's wrong to imply that HDMI2.1 can be dismissed because it's all about 8K and far in the future. Only a few months ago, people were asking (unrealistically) if the 2017 Denons would have it.

HDMI 2.1 will offer, among other things, support for HDR10Plus aka Dynamic metadata for HDR10. Just as people were hopping around wanting the updates for "pass-though" (short-hand for decode-repackage-transmit) of HLG, and dolby vision, so equally, the same applies for HDR10Plus. If you want to be future-proof that means wanting, no demanding, support for all HDR formats from the manufacturers, and rejecting what they want (a "format war" - see https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...-displays.html ). If there isn't the same fuss about pass-through for HDR10Plus as there was for HLG and dolby vision, we've already allowed them to stage a "format war"

HDMI 2.1 will also offer eARC which should matter to any audiophile (ie everyone on this thread) who wants the HD audio formats to be supported rather than 1990's lossy 5.1-max audio over ARC at present (patchy support for DD+ over ARC excepted).

I'd also expect HDMI2.1 to offer proper standardised support for some "missing" 4K picture modes not officially supported by HDMI2.0 which will be very important for 4K Blu-Ray player owners who currently have to ask their player to up-sample to a different mode just to send the picture down the cable. (4K50/60 10-bit 4:2:2, 4K24 10-bit 4:2:2, 4K24 4:2:0). The last of those is the 4K Blu-Ray disc format so people will have a keen interest in sending the unadulterated picture down the cable to allow the TV to do as much or as little processing as the user wants. Presently, they are forced into allowing the player to unpack the chroma sub-sampling.

If some or all of those features are available as firmware upgrade on current/new hardware all the better. They are all features of HDMI2.1.
All these features you mention are possible with HDMI 2.0(a). Dolby Atmos can and DTS:X can be passed through the ARC if the hardware is present to do so. HDMI 2.1 just forces it to be a standard feature as part of the eARC spec. There is also enough bandwidth to pass HDR10Plus through HDMI 2.0(a). HDR10Plus is not even part of the 2.1 spec. HDMI 2.1 support HDR with metadata but that is already supported with 2.0(a), it's not new.

The only thing truly added from HDMI 2.0(a) to 2.1 is increased bandwidth for higher resolution or 120hz 4K and the standardization of eARC forcing manufacturers who what the HDMI 2.1 certification to include the hardware needed for eARC.

I am not saying that HDMI 2.1 is a bad thing, or that or that it will not eventually be needed. What I am trying to get across more than anything is that there is not need to wait for it nor will there be a need to upgrade to it in the near future. We are still 1-2 years away from manufacturers using 2.1 in their equipment and likely longer before any source material will use the added bandwidth. This is a tech/spec designed for future formats, not current formats. Again, because of that any purchase of a current AVR will be futureproof enough to last up to 5 years and likely until UHD medium start to be replaced. Which will be shortly after 8K TV's reach a marketable price.
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post #8626 of 17254 Old 08-16-2017, 03:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post
Thanks. I figured as much but wanted to make sure.

Also, I've been toying with the idea of picking up a 4300 instead of a 3300. If I don't much care about any of the additional features/channels on the 4300 is there any reason to believe that it would offer better sound quality? It advertises slightly more watts per channel and a 32 vs 24 bit DAC. Would either of these things make any appreciable difference?

It's tough going finding a direct comparison between the two, but this post claims that the 3300 actually sounds noticeably better, but who knows what could be going on there:

https://www.avforums.com/threads/den...x4300.2096026/

Thanks.
Upgrading would be a subjective decision as additional power would be moot. As you don't want any additional features provided by the X4300H, stick with the X3300W and enjoy.
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post #8627 of 17254 Old 08-16-2017, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
HDMI 2.1 will also offer eARC which should matter to any audiophile (ie everyone on this thread) who wants the HD audio formats to be supported rather than 1990's lossy 5.1-max audio over ARC at present (patchy support for DD+ over ARC excepted).[/B]

If some or all of those features are available as firmware upgrade on current/new hardware all the better. They are all features of HDMI2.1.

Keep in mind that the TV itself must support eARC which likely would mean another upgrade for those who have recently purchased 4k TVs in the past couple of years. However, the 2017 X3400H/X4400H/X6400H will be getting the eARC firmware update at a future date.
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post #8628 of 17254 Old 08-16-2017, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Keep in mind that the TV itself must support eARC which likely would mean another upgrade for those who have recently purchased 4k TVs in the past couple of years. However, the 2017 X3400H/X4400H/X6400H will be getting the eARC firmware update at a future date.
eARC also really matters only if using the onboard apps, correct? So if one uses a 4k/lossless compatible streaming box and it supports lossless output of Atmos, DTS:X, etc through the 2.0 HDMI, then it really doesn't matter if eARC exists. OR am I missing something?
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post #8629 of 17254 Old 08-16-2017, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by blackjackmark View Post
eARC also really matters only if using the onboard apps, correct? So if one uses a 4k/lossless compatible streaming box and it supports lossless output of Atmos, DTS:X, etc through the 2.0 HDMI, then it really doesn't matter if eARC exists. OR am I missing something?
You are not missing anything, you are correct.
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post #8630 of 17254 Old 08-16-2017, 04:38 PM
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Go with the X1300W and enjoy as there is no additional power benefit with the higher models.
Thanks JD, really appreciate your help. x1300w it is then
maybe with the extra savings, i can go buy another sub
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post #8631 of 17254 Old 08-16-2017, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks JD, really appreciate your help. x1300w it is then
maybe with the extra savings, i can go buy another sub
Money much better spent.
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post #8632 of 17254 Old 08-16-2017, 04:53 PM
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All these features you mention are possible with HDMI 2.0(a).
False.

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Dolby Atmos can and DTS:X can be passed through the ARC if the hardware is present to do so.
Not losslessly they can't.

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HDMI 2.1 just forces it to be a standard feature as part of the eARC spec.
"Just" (!). And adds support for proper, lossless, HD audio.

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There is also enough bandwidth to pass HDR10Plus through HDMI 2.0(a).
Bandwidth is not the issue, and I never said that it was.

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HDR10Plus is not even part of the 2.1 spec.
Covered under Dynamic HDR and yes it is.

http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_2_1/

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Dynamic HDR ensures every moment of a video is displayed at its ideal values for depth, detail, brightness, contrast, and wider color gamuts—on a scene-by-scene or even a frame-by-frame basis.
It's their second listed feature.

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I am not saying that HDMI 2.1 is a bad thing, or that or that it will not eventually be needed. What I am trying to get across more than anything is that there is not need to wait for it nor will there be a need to upgrade to it in the near future. We are still 1-2 years away from manufacturers using 2.1 in their equipment and likely longer before any source material will use the added bandwidth. This is a tech/spec designed for future formats, not current formats.
I understand what you were saying but in particular HDR10+ was supposed to be launching on Amazon Video imminently, and thanks to lack of a way of transporting it over HDMI2.0a (it needs HDMI2.1 for that), it looks like HDR10+ will be restricted to only the "Smart" app on Samsung TVs (with lossy 5.1-only Arc sound). It's (technically) almost a "current" format, we're told later this year and Rudy1 said by the end of August recently.

I agree about the 8K, and VFR - those aspects - being next generation things. Yes. But as I said, I think it's wrong to imply that HDMI2.1 can be put on a shelf and dismissed the way it was in earlier posts because it's all about 8K and far in the future. The other things are about the "now", 4K HDR isn't "completely finished" as of HDMI 2.0a/b, we need HDMI2.1 to "finish" 4K HDR.

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post #8633 of 17254 Old 08-16-2017, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Keep in mind that the TV itself must support eARC which likely would mean another upgrade for those who have recently purchased 4k TVs in the past couple of years. However, the 2017 X3400H/X4400H/X6400H will be getting the eARC firmware update at a future date.
Indeed, yes. This is a good thing (if you have those models) although isn't the first time HDMI.org have made a confusing standard. How are we do describe the HDMI ports of those models afterwards? HDMI2.1-but-without-VFR/8K/48G, or HDMI2.0b-but-with-eArc?

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post #8634 of 17254 Old 08-16-2017, 08:47 PM
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Perhaps this will help. As of now, all the tech for 4K video is pretty much cemented. There will not be any more major advancements until the industry starts to push 8K. The UHD players are still in the Enthusiast price range and have only just started to be made with Dolby Vision enabled. There will not be any major HDR, or sound revisions for a good while (4-5 years likely). And with Dolby Atmos, it has only just hit both theaters and home audio and is also not likely to have any major changes in it for just as long. Because of that any modern receiver you buy is for the most part as future proof as it gets.

The better DAC and better Audyssey calibration are also major pluses. The increased power will likely not matter unless you have a massive room.

So, if you want to have have anything more than 5/7.x.x then it will be worth the extra $200 if it is within your budget. Even if you will not add speakers for another year it will still be worth the cost of upgrade. This is a very good time tech-wise to invest in audio/video. It is early enough in the upgrade cycle that you will get a lot of use out of your purchases. If I had the budget I would return my x2300 and upgrade to the x4300, however, I cannot afford the extra $300 since I have now have an infant at home to worry about.
Thanks for your response! The only thing I've seen on the horizon was eARC, which gets debated later, but since I just upgraded my TV and it only would impact onboard apps (and even then with the rumored Apple 4k device or the inevitable new Roku that supports everything) the onboard apps will fade in importance.

I think you're right in that this is probably as good as it gets as far as future-proofing...or at least having the newest tech for more than a month or so! Since I upgraded everything, I'll be happy with what I have for awhile.

So I think I will go ahead and make the swap to the X4300 (already been thinking about how to run speaker wires up through the walls and where to hang those rear height speakers!)

Thanks to others as well that contributed to the debate about the various changes to come with HDMI, HDR/HDR10/HLG, etc.
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post #8635 of 17254 Old 08-16-2017, 10:28 PM
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My new x4300h showed up today and I have a question. Probably help to give you the lay of the land so to speak. I have an older 5.1 setup. The speakers are about 12 years old and the AVR is 6 years old. My existing equipment is as follows:

DT ProCinema 100's (Front's and Surrounds)
DT ProCinema C2 (Center)
Velodyne ct120 (Sub)
Sony 5300ES (Prior AVR)
Sony XBR 75X900e

So I unplugged everything from the 5300ES and plugged it into the x4300h and began the setup routine. I set the sub to direct crossover mode and the volume knob to the halfway point, and ran the audessey setup

So now for the question...

I have very little bass now. I'm not sure what's going on as that sub shakes the house normally. I can feel it a little, but in the past with these volume levels stuff would have been rattling off the shelves.

Any ideas on where the bass went?
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post #8636 of 17254 Old 08-16-2017, 11:36 PM
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[QUOTE=BertL;54641958]
Solution? Switch to another mode. I bet your ears can't tell a difference -- I never use "Pure Direct".



I may not fully agree. When listening to music from my turntable, I find the Bass output from my x3300w to be much better in Pure Direct mode than either Stereo, Dolby Surround, DTS Neural:X or Matrix modes.

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post #8637 of 17254 Old 08-17-2017, 12:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by e30m3fan View Post
My new x4300h showed up today and I have a question. Probably help to give you the lay of the land so to speak. I have an older 5.1 setup. The speakers are about 12 years old and the AVR is 6 years old. My existing equipment is as follows:

DT ProCinema 100's (Front's and Surrounds)
DT ProCinema C2 (Center)
Velodyne ct120 (Sub)
Sony 5300ES (Prior AVR)
Sony XBR 75X900e

So I unplugged everything from the 5300ES and plugged it into the x4300h and began the setup routine. I set the sub to direct crossover mode and the volume knob to the halfway point, and ran the audessey setup

So now for the question...

I have very little bass now. I'm not sure what's going on as that sub shakes the house normally. I can feel it a little, but in the past with these volume levels stuff would have been rattling off the shelves.

Any ideas on where the bass went?
If this is your first venture into using Audyssey, doing so will generally set the subwoofer level below what most owners prefer. If the sub was set to -12db, lower the volume knob to 9 o'clock and run Audyssey again such that the level is not pegged as -12db. Then after doing so, go into Manual Setup - Levels - Test Tones - Subwoofer and raise the level about +5db or to suit you preference. You'll also benefit by reading the Audyssey stickied thread which includes the FAQ and Audyssey 101.
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post #8638 of 17254 Old 08-17-2017, 12:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Indeed, yes. This is a good thing (if you have those models) although isn't the first time HDMI.org have made a confusing standard. How are we do describe the HDMI ports of those models afterwards? HDMI2.1-but-without-VFR/8K/48G, or HDMI2.0b-but-with-eArc?
The latter as HDMI 2.1 involves new hardware while eARC is simply a firmware update.
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post #8639 of 17254 Old 08-17-2017, 02:23 AM
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If this is your first venture into using Audyssey, doing so will generally set the subwoofer level below what most owners prefer. If the sub was set to -12db, lower the volume knob to 9 o'clock and run Audyssey again such that the level is not pegged as -12db. Then after doing so, go into Manual Setup - Levels - Test Tones - Subwoofer and raise the level about +5db or to suit you preference. You'll also benefit by reading the Audyssey stickied thread which includes the FAQ and Audyssey 101.
Thanks for the response. It took about 2 hours of tinkering and now I've got bass again. I had to set the subwoofer mode to LFE+Main, set the LPF for LFE to 120Hz, set all the speaker crossovers to 80Hz, configured the sub to use its internal crossover and set its low pass crossover to 120Hz. It's late so I can't raise the volume too loud or I'll wake everyone up, but its certainly more in line with what I am used to.

FYI. I am not some crazy bass nut who wants it to thump so loud I can't hear the dialog. For some reason that isn't clear to me the Audyssey setup basically disabled my sub and removed most of the lower frequencies from my setup.

By going into the Manual Setup - Levels I can see it set the sub -7.5. I guess that is the issue?
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post #8640 of 17254 Old 08-17-2017, 02:42 AM
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Originally Posted by e30m3fan View Post
Thanks for the response. It took about 2 hours of tinkering and now I've got bass again. I had to set the subwoofer mode to LFE+Main, set the LPF for LFE to 120Hz, set all the speaker crossovers to 80Hz, configured the sub to use its internal crossover and set its low pass crossover to 120Hz. It's late so I can't raise the volume too loud or I'll wake everyone up, but its certainly more in line with what I am used to.

FYI. I am not some crazy bass nut who wants it to thump so loud I can't hear the dialog. For some reason that isn't clear to me the Audyssey setup basically disabled my sub and removed most of the lower frequencies from my setup.

By going into the Manual Setup - Levels I can see it set the sub -7.5. I guess that is the issue?
The -7.5 is a solid number. You might want to change LFE+main to LFE. If, when you have a chance to double check again, you seem a little light, you can manually bump up the bass a bit, but you don't want to go into positive numbers to avoid the chance of clipping. Your bass might also sound a little underwhelming because Audyssey probably flattened out the response, it was probably a little boomy beforehand, which might sound like more bass.

Or, if it turns out you like the way it sounds now, leave it there.

ETA: This might be what you did, but I did a quick look at the Velodyne manual, and you want the X-over switch set to OUT. The receiver will handle the x-over. Although, what you ended up doing also works.
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Last edited by drh3b; 08-17-2017 at 02:53 AM.
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