The "OFFICIAL" 2016 Denon "S-Series" / "X-Series" AVR Owner's Thread + FAQ - Page 580 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #17371 of 17389 Old 11-30-2019, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Source related to some degree. Try another source and you'll likely have different results. Also try disabling Zone 3 to see if that makes a difference.
Ok I have done some testing with different sources with no solution yet.

I tried with my Xbox and the same thing happens. On the Xbox it limits me to 83.5. It actually does not even matter what I am doing in the console (xbox or PS4) when I change volume level. The same limit happens at the Home screen or while in Spotify or any other app etc.

So I tried an HDMI source with nothing connected to it. The same thing is happening. What I do notice regardless of what source I am running, When Audessey is on, the limit is much lower. With it Audessey off, it will go to 90-91 UNLESS I turn GRAPHIC EQ on, then it lowers the limit.

Lastly- If I use the sound setting DIRECT/PURE, it will go all the way up to 98.

It seems to have some correlation to the sound setting I am running MOVIE-MUSIC-DIRECT etc but why?
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post #17372 of 17389 Old 12-02-2019, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Juiced46 View Post
Lastly- If I use the sound setting DIRECT/PURE, it will go all the way up to 98.

It seems to have some correlation to the sound setting I am running MOVIE-MUSIC-DIRECT etc but why?
Remember that "98" (+18dB) is the absolute limit. If any of the audio corrections (Audyssey, EQ, input level adjust, tone controls, etc) are enabled, they trim the level that the Master Volume Control requests so that might not be able to reach +18dB any more.

The clue is that you disabled all of the trims with the Direct setting and +18dB became available.
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post #17373 of 17389 Old 12-02-2019, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Juiced46 View Post
Lastly- If I use the sound setting DIRECT/PURE, it will go all the way up to 98.

It seems to have some correlation to the sound setting I am running MOVIE-MUSIC-DIRECT etc but why?
Remember that "98" (+18dB) is the absolute limit. If any of the audio corrections (Audyssey, EQ, input level adjust, tone controls, etc) are enabled, they trim the level that the Master Volume Control requests so that might not be able to reach +18dB any more.

The clue is that you disabled all of the trims with the Direct setting and +18dB became available.


Correct, I realize that Audessey will limit it. However, it also happens when I disable Audessey. For example-I disable Audessey, Press the MUSIC button on the remote and select STEREO. It still limits it to around 90, if I turn on the custom EQ (Audessey still off) It limits it to even less usually around 81-83.5
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post #17374 of 17389 Old 12-02-2019, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Juiced46 View Post
Correct, I realize that Audessey will limit it. However, it also happens when I disable Audessey. For example-I disable Audessey, Press the MUSIC button on the remote and select STEREO. It still limits it to around 90, if I turn on the custom EQ (Audessey still off) It limits it to even less usually around 81-83.5
Audyssey is just one of several factors that can trim the preamp levels. Your observation that "Music" and "Direct" give different results demonstrates that.

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post #17375 of 17389 Old 12-02-2019, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan in St. Louis View Post
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Originally Posted by Juiced46 View Post
Correct, I realize that Audessey will limit it. However, it also happens when I disable Audessey. For example-I disable Audessey, Press the MUSIC button on the remote and select STEREO. It still limits it to around 90, if I turn on the custom EQ (Audessey still off) It limits it to even less usually around 81-83.5
Audyssey is just one of several factors that can trim the preamp levels. Your observation that "Music" and "Direct" give different results demonstrates that.

Thanks for the reply. But excuse my confusion. So you are saying even though Audessey is set to off. When I use MUSIC MOVIE OR GAME it will trim the level? IZs there anyway around this? I want to use the custom EQ for music, but its limiting it so much I cannot get the full volume I desire.
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post #17376 of 17389 Old 12-02-2019, 12:05 PM
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Using music/stereo is still Audyssey for me, so the max volume would still be limited by whatever boosts Audyssey used. Music/movie/game are just shortcut/favorites. If you originally set up Audyssey I would think it would be on for all modes unless you changed it.
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post #17377 of 17389 Old 12-02-2019, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Spidacat View Post
Using music/stereo is still Audyssey for me, so the max volume would still be limited by whatever boosts Audyssey used. Music/movie/game are just shortcut/favorites. If you originally set up Audyssey I would think it would be on for all modes unless you changed it.

I was under the assumption that worked in the opposite. I did not realize that MUSIC/MOVIE/GAME had any relation to Audyssey. It also does not specify in the manual either. The thing is, I have Audyssey OFF. So if i wanted Stereo or All Channel Stereo, if I am reading the manual right, there is no Audyssey correction when I have it set to OFF. What would be the point of having an option to shut if off if its always on regardless of the sound mode you are in?

Let me ask this, if you guys want to listen to 2 channel/Stereo music, what setting would you run? Are you running it in Direct?

Lastly, I forgot to mention, its never been like this since I owned the AVR. It recently started. The only thing I have changed was my center speaker and I did, run Audyssey again(through the app). So obviously, there has to be some relation and most likely the cause. But I cannot still wrap my head around that AUDySSEY is causing my volume limitation when I have it disabled......
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post #17378 of 17389 Old 12-02-2019, 06:54 PM
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I could be wrong, but I believe that when you run Audyssey, it assumes you want it for all sources - Blu Ray, CD's, internet radio, cable... If you went and disabled Audyssey for your Blu Ray player for example, it would leave it on for the remainder of your inputs. With my old speakers I used Audyssey for my Blu Ray player but used "L/R bypass" for my music sources. The AVR knew to switch back to Audyssey when I went back to playing movies.

The movie/music/game buttons don't have any relation to Audyssey; they are just shortcuts that cycle through the different mono/stereo/surround options. If you have Audyssey enabled it will be active and not if you don't.

You can set off, Audyssey reference, Audyssey flat, or L/R bypass for each of your sources. I think it's the same with dynamic volume and dynamic EQ. It's your choice what you prefer. My old speakers sounded lifeless with Audyssey so I used L/R bypass for music and Audyssey reference for movies. With my current speakers I use Audyssey reference for everything.

For each source/option (movie/music buttons for example) you choose, go into the setup options and see if Audyssey is active - that will always "limit" the max volume you have available.
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post #17379 of 17389 Old 12-02-2019, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Spidacat View Post
I could be wrong, but I believe that when you run Audyssey, it assumes you want it for all sources - Blu Ray, CD's, internet radio, cable... If you went and disabled Audyssey for your Blu Ray player for example, it would leave it on for the remainder of your inputs. With my old speakers I used Audyssey for my Blu Ray player but used "L/R bypass" for my music sources. The AVR knew to switch back to Audyssey when I went back to playing movies.

The movie/music/game buttons don't have any relation to Audyssey; they are just shortcuts that cycle through the different mono/stereo/surround options. If you have Audyssey enabled it will be active and not if you don't.

You can set off, Audyssey reference, Audyssey flat, or L/R bypass for each of your sources. I think it's the same with dynamic volume and dynamic EQ. It's your choice what you prefer. My old speakers sounded lifeless with Audyssey so I used L/R bypass for music and Audyssey reference for movies. With my current speakers I use Audyssey reference for everything.

For each source/option (movie/music buttons for example) you choose, go into the setup options and see if Audyssey is active - that will always "limit" the max volume you have available.
I understand all of that, thank you for the explanation though.

I know Audyssey is set to ON after running the setup. So for example. I only use my PS4 to play Music through Spotify. I shut Audyssey OFF and have always listened with Music/Stereo. When I switch to my Xbox for games and Blu Ray, it automatically turns Audyssey back on which I use Reference on that source. I know for a fact on the PS4 when I set it to MUSIC/STEREO Audyssey is OFF and it is still hitting me with that volume limit, then it gets even WORSE if I enable the CUSTOM EQ CURVE. I am not talking about the Audyssey EQ, but the custom EQ for when Audyssey is OFF.

I feel my system has always sounded better when listening to music with Audyssey off. All other content I have it on. But now I am hitting this limitation and it will not play as loud as it previously has.

I even tried loading an OLD Audyssey file that I know was working without that limit and the same thing is happening.
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post #17380 of 17389 Old 12-03-2019, 01:06 AM
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I understand all of that, thank you for the explanation though.



I know Audyssey is set to ON after running the setup. So for example. I only use my PS4 to play Music through Spotify. I shut Audyssey OFF and have always listened with Music/Stereo. When I switch to my Xbox for games and Blu Ray, it automatically turns Audyssey back on which I use Reference on that source. I know for a fact on the PS4 when I set it to MUSIC/STEREO Audyssey is OFF and it is still hitting me with that volume limit, then it gets even WORSE if I enable the CUSTOM EQ CURVE. I am not talking about the Audyssey EQ, but the custom EQ for when Audyssey is OFF.



I feel my system has always sounded better when listening to music with Audyssey off. All other content I have it on. But now I am hitting this limitation and it will not play as loud as it previously has.



I even tried loading an OLD Audyssey file that I know was working without that limit and the same thing is happening.
Run Audyssey through the receiver and not the MultEQ app and see if the headroom delta lessens with Audyssey on. Are you running all 6 or 8 of the available mic positions? Do you have subwoofers in the setup or just your regular non bass managed speakers? Your space must be large to need Reference level or higher listening levels. Either that or its highly treated. Most in the home listen 10 to 15dB down from that (80 Absolute/0dB Relative.)

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post #17381 of 17389 Old 12-03-2019, 04:49 PM
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Run Audyssey through the receiver and not the MultEQ app and see if the headroom delta lessens with Audyssey on. Are you running all 6 or 8 of the available mic positions? Do you have subwoofers in the setup or just your regular non bass managed speakers? Your space must be large to need Reference level or higher listening levels. Either that or its highly treated. Most in the home listen 10 to 15dB down from that (80 Absolute/0dB Relative.)
I will run it through the receiver and not the app and see what happens. Its just strange that I have been using the app for over a year and this is the first time I ran into this issue.

When I run the app, would it be better if I wipe out the current state of the AVR to default values then run it? Not sure if that matters.

I have always ran 4 mic positions, I have never ran more.

For bass management I have 3 Epik Empires. Which is 6- 15" drivers powered by a Behringer NX6000D.

The room I would not consider "heavily" treated. I just have first reflections treated and bass traps in the corners. The room its in "used to be" 400sq ft enclosed, but I recently did a basement remodel and removed a wall so it is fully open on one side now that connects into more of the finished part of the basement.
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post #17382 of 17389 Old 12-03-2019, 09:21 PM
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I will run it through the receiver and not the app and see what happens. Its just strange that I have been using the app for over a year and this is the first time I ran into this issue.
That is strange. I'll give you that. Maybe a firmware update to the app is the issue. Hard to tell which is why I recommend trying just from the receiver and see if things improve or not.



Quote:
When I run the app, would it be better if I wipe out the current state of the AVR to default values then run it? Not sure if that matters.
Shouldn't matter as Audyssey ignores everything set before the auto calibration.



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I have always ran 4 mic positions, I have never ran more.
That's more than likely at least a part of your problem. Assuming you have an X model with 8 available mic positions you should run all 8 starting from the 1st center of head level and distance position. The other 7 should radiate out from that first one no more than a foot or so using only that 1st location as the measuring point. Try not to take any measurements behind your main listening position or within 20 inches of a hard boundary like a back wall or tall seatback. A tighter 1 foot mic spacing pattern can also help use all 8 for a single listening position. Give the omnidirectional mic as many spatial queues as possible within your listening bubble. Chris Kyriakakis one of the founders of Audyssey does not recommend using less than the maximum number of mic positions regardless of the number of seating positions.






Quote:
For bass management I have 3 Epik Empires. Which is 6- 15" drivers powered by a Behringer NX6000D.
Are you doing added bass boost in the receiver using both the manual speaker level settings and subwoofer level adjust? The latter should be left off and not at its default 0dB setting when set to On as there is a glitch in the software causing it to not be in tune with the other manual level boost section for the sub.



Quote:
The room I would not consider "heavily" treated. I just have first reflections treated and bass traps in the corners. The room its in "used to be" 400sq ft enclosed, but I recently did a basement remodel and removed a wall so it is fully open on one side now that connects into more of the finished part of the basement.
That's good use of passive treatments I would say. That and a bit of an open concept explains the Reference levels in your space. Going over that isn't recommended for the setup or your hearing but you still want some headroom even at Reference.

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post #17383 of 17389 Old Yesterday, 11:33 AM
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Hi All,

Just a quick question. I have a denon 4300 and I ran audessey and it set the sub woofer level to -8db. How do I go and change this in the settings? I see it in the check results section in audessey. Thanks in advance!

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post #17384 of 17389 Old Yesterday, 02:34 PM
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Hi All,

Just a quick question. I have a denon 4300 and I ran audessey and it set the sub woofer level to -8db. How do I go and change this in the settings? I see it in the check results section in audessey. Thanks in advance!
This is quite good. Now press the Options button on the remote, select Channel Level Adjust and then increase the subwoofer volume.

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post #17385 of 17389 Old Yesterday, 02:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi All,

Just a quick question. I have a denon 4300 and I ran audessey and it set the sub woofer level to -8db. How do I go and change this in the settings? I see it in the check results section in audessey. Thanks in advance!
There's no reason to redo the Audyssey calibration. Many owners prefer a little more oomph after running Audyssey which can be accomplished by simply bumping up the Subwoofer setting about 3-5db or whatever suits your preference.

Refer to post 4 item 4 on the Subwoofer Level Adjust setting.
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post #17386 of 17389 Old Yesterday, 09:15 PM
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Re-do the calibration, but before you start, tune the power of the sub a little down (if you have an active model).
Ideally after calibration it's close to 0 (+- 3). Afterwards you can tune it a little bit up, or the better solution, press the Options button on the remote, select Channel Level Adjust and then increase the subwoofer volume.
Sorry but this is incorrect information. You want the subwoofer trim to be closer to -8(anything above -11 is ok), this gives you more headroom to raise the trim or the sub volume dial.

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post #17387 of 17389 Old Today, 01:49 AM
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Sorry but this is incorrect information. You want the subwoofer trim to be closer to -8(anything above -11 is ok), this gives you more headroom to raise the trim or the sub volume dial.
You are right, I had the theory wrong in mind, thanks for correcting. I've edited my post.

Here is some very good theory:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...eferences.html
Very quick summary, try to get the calibration for the sub around -9 to -11. Then increase the sub volume post calibration with the AVR volume settings.
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post #17388 of 17389 Old Today, 02:20 AM - Thread Starter
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This is quite good. Now press the Options button on the remote, select Channel Level Adjust and then increase the subwoofer volume.
Important to note, making the change using Channel Level Adjust only changes the sub level for the current selected source.

Quote:
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You are right, I had the theory wrong in mind, thanks for correcting. I've edited my post.

Here is some very good theory:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...eferences.html
Very quick summary, try to get the calibration for the sub around -9 to -11. Then increase the sub volume post calibration with the AVR volume settings.
As noted in the reference you posted, simply ensure the level doesn't go above -5dB which will then still allow for a roughly average +5dB boost using Manual Setup - Levels - Test Tone - Subwoofer without going over 0dB but placing the final subwoofer setting closer to 0dB which will ensure the sub fires even with a low dB source signal.
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post #17389 of 17389 Old Today, 09:18 AM
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Thank you all for your response! Will try the solution and let y'all know..

MAIN ROOM :Sony HX929 65, Denon X4300H, Polk Audio Monitor 70 Fronts, Polk Audio CS2 center, Polk audio monitor 40 surrounds, Emotivs XPA 3, PSW505 12'' sub, PSW111 8'' sub, PS3 MGS4 80 GB (now 500GB) bundle
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