The "OFFICIAL" 2016 Denon "S-Series" / "X-Series" AVR Owner's Thread + FAQ - Page 585 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #17521 of 17654 Old 01-19-2020, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by DougDingle View Post
Monoprice has been selling uncertified "8K" cables for several months, much to my disappointment with them. Claim 48Gb capability.
Belkin has as well up to 8 feet for ATV and Xbox. They're testing them themselves before the ATC testing but the proper verbiage for any tested HDMI cable is Standard speed/High speed,Certified Premium and coming soon to a theater near you Ultra High Speed. Whether they all call them 8K or 48GB capable those are the only correct terms recognized by HDMI.org.

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post #17522 of 17654 Old 01-19-2020, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by beardmoen View Post
Can anyone recommend a multimeter for use in home theater?
This smaller ANENG meter got great reviews from the EEV blog on YT a while back. More hand sized than pocket but it has tons of features at a reasonable price point.

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post #17523 of 17654 Old 01-19-2020, 12:20 PM
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@DougDingle Sorry. That post of mine back to you sounded preachy. Wasn't meant to be.

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post #17524 of 17654 Old 01-19-2020, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
Belkin has as well up to 8 feet for ATV and Xbox. They're testing them themselves before the ATC testing but the proper verbiage for any tested HDMI cable is Standard speed/High speed,Certified Premium and coming soon to a theater near you Ultra High Speed. Whether they all call them 8K or 48GB capable those are the only correct terms recognized by HDMI.org.

Unfortunately, my respect for HDMI.org has dropped significantly since they announced that anyone going to version 2.1 can implement as much or as little of the spec as they please.

What we have coming up is an even stupider and more confusing version of HDR and CEC, where equipment manufacturers can claim "Supports HDMI 2.1!" and deliver almost nothing good or useful.

What on earth is the point of coming up with a high end interface spec and then saying, well, you can support whatever parts are convenient?

HDMI.org has stated that manufacturers will have to say what portion(s) of the spec they support. That's laughable. The marketing departments will all figure out weasel terms to obfuscate the truth. Remember, these are the people that came out with "3,000 WATTS OF PEAK INSTANTANEOUS POWER!!!" to describe $49 amplifiers. What they fail to mention is that the amp will have to be struck by lightning to get there 'instantaneously'.

It's going to be something of a nightmare, I suspect.
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post #17525 of 17654 Old 01-19-2020, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
@DougDingle Sorry. That post of mine back to you sounded preachy. Wasn't meant to be.

I did not take it that way at all. No problem.
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post #17526 of 17654 Old 01-19-2020, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by DougDingle View Post
Unfortunately, my respect for HDMI.org has dropped significantly since they announced that anyone going to version 2.1 can implement as much or as little of the spec as they please.

What we have coming up is an even stupider and more confusing version of HDR and CEC, where equipment manufacturers can claim "Supports HDMI 2.1!" and deliver almost nothing good or useful.

What on earth is the point of coming up with a high end interface spec and then saying, well, you can support whatever parts are convenient?

HDMI.org has stated that manufacturers will have to say what portion(s) of the spec they support. That's laughable. The marketing departments will all figure out weasel terms to obfuscate the truth. Remember, these are the people that came out with "3,000 WATTS OF PEAK INSTANTANEOUS POWER!!!" to describe $49 amplifiers. What they fail to mention is that the amp will have to be struck by lightning to get there 'instantaneously'.

It's going to be something of a nightmare, I suspect.
Totally agree. It's confusing as heck as well.
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post #17527 of 17654 Old 01-19-2020, 12:26 PM
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I did not take it that way at all. No problem.
Good deal.
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post #17528 of 17654 Old 01-19-2020, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by DougDingle View Post
Unfortunately, my respect for HDMI.org has dropped significantly since they announced that anyone going to version 2.1 can implement as much or as little of the spec as they please.


Well that is a cakewalk compared to the USB-C cable/connector snafu that has existed for some time now. We have many cable types that share USB-C style connectors that are physically different cables. For example you can’t use a standard USC-C cable as a Thunderbolt cable even though they look identical! There are differences in the electronics within the cable (these cables are not dumb cables) you have to look at the cable labeling and the application/devices cable icons when using.

I’m not personally upset with your HDMI org issue as the subdivisions they have for various parts of the spec are logical and makes sense (it’s not entirely pick and choose, you have to pick and choose within groups of features and it is not a cable issue as much as endpoint feature issues.)
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post #17529 of 17654 Old 01-20-2020, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by beardmoen View Post
Can anyone recommend a multimeter for use in home theater?
What do you wish to measure?

For general purpose use even the models given away for free at stores like Harbor Freight will be enough. If you have specific needs, like resistance measurement with a resolution of 0.1 ohm or voltage measurement in the sub-millivolt range, we would need to consider models that meet those parameters.
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post #17530 of 17654 Old 01-20-2020, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan in St. Louis View Post
What do you wish to measure?

For general purpose use even the models given away for free at stores like Harbor Freight will be enough. If you have specific needs, like resistance measurement with a resolution of 0.1 ohm or voltage measurement in the sub-millivolt range, we would need to consider models that meet those parameters.
I wish to test the subwoofer terminal on my Denon x4300h to determine if there is any signal output. If there is, then it must by my amp that is cutting out. I'm assuming I would use a low frequency signal inputted to the Denon to determine this.

I am assuming I would be measuring ohms?
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post #17531 of 17654 Old 01-20-2020, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by beardmoen View Post
I wish to test the subwoofer terminal on my Denon x4300h to determine if there is any signal output. If there is, then it must by my amp that is cutting out. I'm assuming I would use a low frequency signal inputted to the Denon to determine this.

I am assuming I would be measuring ohms?

You would be measuring a low level audio signal, so millivolts of AC.
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post #17532 of 17654 Old 01-20-2020, 09:55 AM
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You would be measuring a low level audio signal, so millivolts of AC.
Will this measure millivolts?

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post #17533 of 17654 Old 01-20-2020, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by beardmoen View Post
Will this measure millivolts?

Amazon link
Page 6 of the User Guide indicates it can resolve 1 millivolt. That should be sufficient. That meter loses accuracy below 40Hz, but you don't need 1% accuracy for that test -- just to know whether a signal is present.

Actually you could just unplug the RCA cable at the receiver end and touch the center pin with your finger -- if the subwoofer buzzes, it and the cable are OK.
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post #17534 of 17654 Old 01-20-2020, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan in St. Louis View Post
Page 6 of the User Guide indicates it can resolve 1 millivolt. That should be sufficient. That meter loses accuracy below 40Hz, but you don't need 1% accuracy for that test -- just to know whether a signal is present.

Actually you could just unplug the RCA cable at the receiver end and touch the center pin with your finger -- if the subwoofer buzzes, it and the cable are OK.
What and where is the center pin? The subwoofer terminal?
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post #17535 of 17654 Old 01-20-2020, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by beardmoen View Post
What and where is the center pin? The subwoofer terminal?
I am assuming that you have an audio cable connecting the Denon receiver and the subwoofer. Leave the cable plugged into the woofer, remove it from the receiver, and touch the exposed pin at the end of the cable.

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post #17536 of 17654 Old 01-20-2020, 02:15 PM
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So I have a multimeter now, what do I do? No idea how this works.
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post #17537 of 17654 Old 01-20-2020, 04:17 PM
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So I have a multimeter now, what do I do? No idea how this works.

Please don't take this the wrong way, I don't mean to be insulting, but based on your posts so far I don't think you're sufficiently technically advanced to be troubleshooting this.

Do you know a local person or a relative, perhaps a gamer, someone who has built their own computer or is otherwise technically fluent and you can pay to come and troubleshoot the issue?

Is there a BestBuy near you? They have a Geek Squad where people come to you to help with stuff like this.

My concern is that you may not have much of an issue at all, but may cause one trying to fix the problem.
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post #17538 of 17654 Old 01-20-2020, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by DougDingle View Post
Please don't take this the wrong way, I don't mean to be insulting, but based on your posts so far I don't think you're sufficiently technically advanced to be troubleshooting this.

Do you know a local person or a relative, perhaps a gamer, someone who has built their own computer or is otherwise technically fluent and you can pay to come and troubleshoot the issue?

Is there a BestBuy near you? They have a Geek Squad where people come to you to help with stuff like this.

My concern is that you may not have much of an issue at all, but may cause one trying to fix the problem.
I concur and I'm going to send the amp back and have them look at it. It's still under warranty.
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post #17539 of 17654 Old 01-20-2020, 07:40 PM
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@DougDingle I agree with you that Beardmoen may not have much of an issue at all and can easily without knowing it cause one. Dan gave a very easy and simple exercise to at least eliminate the cable and sub amp. I also would suggest to remove the cable from the sub leaving the other end plugged into the sub pre-out and measure the voltage (other end of cable) on the center pin and outer shield with the meter, the sub out is a low line level output and polarity is not an issue since it is AC. It should read less than a volt (millivolt) and that's all he needs to know that a signal is present, preferably with a source active with some bass on a moderate MV level, I believe volume level is dependent on signal? Do you agree or anyone else who may want to chime in?
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post #17540 of 17654 Old 01-20-2020, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by xyzz123 View Post
Hi All,

Any help would be appreciated, I've spent many hours reading online and attempting solutions on this.

it's a Denon 4300h

All of my inputs (shield, iptv box, xbox, HTPC, raspberry Pi etc..) work flawlessly on the Aux 1 input (on the front) - so i know connection to the TV is fine.

Any time I plug something in the back, the results are unpredictable..examples:

Nvidia shield: sometimes good for an hour, then some black flickering. Sometimes black flickering right away and then every 20 seconds or so.. (unwatchable). Switching inputs, then switching back seems to help, but doesnt fully solve the problem.

IPTV box (Dreamlink t2): when plugged in the back, I get audio only. No video at all (my TV just says check cable no video signal)

-----

I have tried various cables and am confident that is not the issue. After all, simply plugging in to aux 1 on the front fixes everything (using same cable)


Any ideas? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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The front input is bandwidth limited. Still could be the cables. I have the exact same receiver and everything passes through fine with all back HDMI inputs. Are you passing just 4K sources through the rear inputs?
An update: I purchased new cables, and its still the same. Flawless when plugged into the front aux 1 input, and flickering when using back inputs.

In order to eliminate other potential causes, I used only a Nvidia shield and unplugged all other inputs. Watched about 4hours plugged into aux 1 (flawless), watched about 4 hours into "media player" input. I also have my AVR out of the cabinet to eliminate potential overheating issues.

This is really disappointing and the 2nd time this has happened to me with a denon in the last 5 or 6 years. I know its an older model, but its only had about 6 months of use. (bought on sale, and construction of my theatre took alot longer than what i anticipated... lol).

what are my options here? is there any other troubleshooting I can do? Worst case scenerio would be to get an HDMI switch that I can plug into the front... but that is far from ideal.
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post #17541 of 17654 Old 01-20-2020, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by xyzz123 View Post
An update: I purchased new cables, and its still the same. Flawless when plugged into the front aux 1 input, and flickering when using back inputs.
What specific new cables and what is the longest run from source to sink device(TV)?



Quote:
In order to eliminate other potential causes, I used only a Nvidia shield and unplugged all other inputs. Watched about 4hours plugged into aux 1 (flawless), watched about 4 hours into "media player" input. I also have my AVR out of the cabinet to eliminate potential overheating issues.
The media player input is closer to the HDMI outputs. What happens when you move the cable farther to the left inputs from the Media labeled one?



Quote:
This is really disappointing and the 2nd time this has happened to me with a denon in the last 5 or 6 years. I know its an older model, but its only had about 6 months of use. (bought on sale, and construction of my theatre took alot longer than what i anticipated... lol).



what are my options here? is there any other troubleshooting I can do? Worst case scenerio would be to get an HDMI switch that I can plug into the front... but that is far from ideal.
The chances of all your HDMI inputs going bad at the same time are low although yes the main board could be defective but in my mind that should also effect the front input. Bottom line is what happens when you play non 4K sources through all of those same rear inputs?
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post #17542 of 17654 Old 01-20-2020, 08:40 PM
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I just upgraded from a 3313ci to an x4400h because my network card in the 3313ci died. So far I've been really impressed. I have three zones set up in my house, with a 7.1 in the main zone (in the basement), pre-out for zone 2 'upstairs' and an outside zone driven by the remainin two amps.

I got the AVR 2016 and Heos apps set up on my phone and they control the three zones perfectly. I have been trying to get Heos and Alexa to work together, but am having trouble. We have an Alexa enabled Ecobee thermostat in our upstairs zone and I'd like to be able to tell it to turn on the upstairs zone or the outside zone through voice control. I was able to add Heos to the Alexa App and sometimes get it to work, but I can't get it to do what I want repeatedly. It recognizes the Denon, but it doesn't differentiate the zones.

Is it possible to define each zone as an independent "heos speaker"? IE I'd like to say "Alexa turn on Denon upstairs and play Pandora" or Alexa turn on outside zone to Amazon Music, etc. Right now all I can say is turn on Denon and the main zone turns on. If I turn on the upstairs zone in the Heos app, Alexa will adjust that zone, but it doesn't seem to know what zone it is.

Any help would be appreciated.

Edit: A little more research looks like I would need to define each zone as its own "speaker" in Heos. Is that possible, and if so how?

Thanks

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post #17543 of 17654 Old 01-20-2020, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by xyzz123 View Post
An update: I purchased new cables, and its still the same. Flawless when plugged into the front aux 1 input, and flickering when using back inputs.



In order to eliminate other potential causes, I used only a Nvidia shield and unplugged all other inputs. Watched about 4hours plugged into aux 1 (flawless), watched about 4 hours into "media player" input. I also have my AVR out of the cabinet to eliminate potential overheating issues.



This is really disappointing and the 2nd time this has happened to me with a denon in the last 5 or 6 years. I know its an older model, but its only had about 6 months of use. (bought on sale, and construction of my theatre took alot longer than what i anticipated... lol).



what are my options here? is there any other troubleshooting I can do? Worst case scenerio would be to get an HDMI switch that I can plug into the front... but that is far from ideal.


You did also change the hdmi cable connecting the AVR to your TV? I ask this because the someone recently on the ATV forum had a similar issue and never changed tat cable (which fixed his problem.)

Also what happens if you toggle the video scaler settings (and passthru the signal if it was set on?)
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post #17544 of 17654 Old 01-20-2020, 09:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jec6100 View Post
I just upgraded from a 3313ci to an x4400h because my network card in the 3313ci died. So far I've been really impressed. I have three zones set up in my house, with a 7.1 in the main zone (in the basement), pre-out for zone 2 'upstairs' and an outside zone driven by the remainin two amps.

I got the AVR 2016 and Heos apps set up on my phone and they control the three zones perfectly. I have been trying to get Heos and Alexa to work together, but am having trouble. We have an Alexa enabled Ecobee thermostat in our upstairs zone and I'd like to be able to tell it to turn on the upstairs zone or the outside zone through voice control. I was able to add Heos to the Alexa App and sometimes get it to work, but I can't get it to do what I want repeatedly. It recognizes the Denon, but it doesn't differentiate the zones.

Is it possible to define each zone as an independent "heos speaker"? IE I'd like to say "Alexa turn on Denon upstairs and play Pandora" or Alexa turn on outside zone to Amazon Music, etc. Right now all I can say is turn on Denon and the main zone turns on. If I turn on the upstairs zone in the Heos app, Alexa will adjust that zone, but it doesn't seem to know what zone it is.

Any help would be appreciated.

Edit: A little more research looks like I would need to define each zone as its own "speaker" in Heos. Is that possible, and if so how?

Thanks
Oops! Wrong thread. This thread discusses the 2016 models while the X4400H is a 2017 model. Please repost in the correct thread.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...sts-1-8-a.html
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post #17545 of 17654 Old 01-20-2020, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
@DougDingle I agree with you that Beardmoen may not have much of an issue at all and can easily without knowing it cause one. Dan gave a very easy and simple exercise to at least eliminate the cable and sub amp. I also would suggest to remove the cable from the sub leaving the other end plugged into the sub pre-out and measure the voltage (other end of cable) on the center pin and outer shield with the meter, the sub out is a low line level output and polarity is not an issue since it is AC. It should read less than a volt (millivolt) and that's all he needs to know that a signal is present, preferably with a source active with some bass on a moderate MV level, I believe volume level is dependent on signal? Do you agree or anyone else who may want to chime in?

Yes, that method should verify that the AVR is putting bass out on the sub connector. Since the voltage level driving the sub amp will vary up and down depending on the amount of bass present, the AC millivolt reading should fluctuate up and down. This is one of those instances where an older analog meter would be somewhat more useful to watch the levels bounce.
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post #17546 of 17654 Old 01-21-2020, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by DougDingle View Post
Do you know a local person or a relative, perhaps a gamer, someone who has built their own computer or is otherwise technically fluent and you can pay to come and troubleshoot the issue?
Beardmoen and I have been working via PMs so as to not clutter the forum with our chatter. By systematically substituting each of the elements (AVR > RCA cable > power amp > speaker cable > subwoofer) in the audio chain with known working replacements we believe the power amplifier that drives the (passive) subwoofer to be the culprit.

Thanks to all for your suggestions and patience.
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M = Mega, m = milli. K = Kelvin, k = kilo. B = Bytes, b = bits. G = Giga, g = gravity. Dan in Saint Louis
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post #17547 of 17654 Old 01-21-2020, 06:24 PM
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Thanks Dan for the heads up, I didn't realize the amp being used was an outboard amp to power a "passive" sub, negligence on my part. Very gracious of you to help a fellow enthusiast, you're an example of what this forum is all about, just confirms that we are all in this together and you're welcome for the thanks, good job...........

Regards, Jeffrey
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post #17548 of 17654 Old 01-22-2020, 04:11 PM
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Thanks to everyone that has helped me in the subwoofer matter. I have a rep from the manufacturer of the amp calling me this evening. I'll let you know what happens.


UPDATE After speaking over the phone with the rep, it was concluded that the amp was bad. It's under warranty and already on its way back to the company. He said it was a quick turn around and I should have it back in a week, as good as new.
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Last edited by beardmoen; 01-26-2020 at 08:45 AM. Reason: update on service
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post #17549 of 17654 Old 01-24-2020, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by xyzz123 View Post
Watched about 4hours plugged into aux 1 (flawless), watched about 4 hours into "media player" input. I also have my AVR out of the cabinet to eliminate potential overheating issues.

what are my options here? is there any other troubleshooting I can do? Worst case scenerio would be to get an HDMI switch that I can plug into the front... but that is far from ideal.
It's funny that you mention the 'media player' input, as I have a similar issue with my x3300w. I started having issues with my receiver about a year or so into purchasing it (back in 2017). I replaced the unit with something else and then kind of forgot about it. But doing some recent cleanup, I decided to see what could be the issue with this Denon, and after some extensive testing, using an Atomos Shogun Inferno outputting UHDp60 4:2:2 10bit, I think I found the culprit.

If I only use the rear HDMI ports 1-4 or 6-7, things seem to operate relatively well. I do have some occasional HDMI handshake issues, but these can usually be ironed out (for instance, by enabling or disabling Zone 2 output or just warm power cycling the receiver for a few seconds; although, I don't think these hoops that I have to jump through are really 'acceptable', as the workaround to get these ports re-engaged is quite frustrating when you just want something to work). However, once I switch to HDMI 5 input (Media Player), that's when things go to hell pretty much.

If the input device is relayed out to the TV from HDMI 5 (and that's a big 'if'), there is usually corrupted video on the screen. There might be a horizontal line or two flashing on the screen, or the entire video will flicker in and out. If I switch to the Zone 2 output from the receiver to the TV, then this is usually fine, given video is actually displayed on the TV. The real kicker of this is not just that this seems to happen most often on HDMI 5, but that once it does, all other HDMI ports become practically useless. The only way for me to regain video out from those other input ports, from either the Main HDMI or Zone 2 HDMI, is to cold power cycle the receiver (manually unplug the power) + (usually) the input device. For instance, I haven't unplugged the power yet, so right now I am unable to get any video out from any HDMI input from the receiver. This is the case even though the Denon's front panel "sees" an input signal, and the Shogun displays that it is actively connected to a 4Kp60 display device.

So basically, if I don't use HDMI 5, I am usually ok. This means instead of an 8-port HDMI receiver, I have a 7-port unit. Time to get on the phone with Denon I guess...

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post #17550 of 17654 Old 01-26-2020, 10:44 AM
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Audio / video out issue

Hello,

Not sure what the source of the issue is, so I thought I'd start with the receiver.

My setup:
Vizio PQ65-F1 (2018) (latest firmware supporting HDR10+)
Denon AVR-x2300w (latest firmware)
4K UHD players, including for testing -- Philips BDP7501 / LG UP970 / Panasonic DP-UB420 (all 3 have latest firmware and dual HDMI out)
Monoprice premium certified high speed HDMI cables

I've already factory reset the receiver and soft reset the Vizio TV

I've turned off ARC (and even tested with it on)

I'm trying to take advantage of HDR10+ on some of my newer 4K movies. Since the receiver doesn't support HDR10+ passthrough, I thought I'd try sending the audio stream separately to the receiver and the video straight to the TV.
Normally, I pass everything through the receiver (HD-DVD player, PS4, etc.) with a single HDMI cable.

The Denon receiver feeds into HDMI 1 on the TV. I connected the video out port on the 4K players to HDMI 2 on the TV. The audio out port on the 4K players is fed into HDMI input 1 on the receiver (I also tried input 3 on the receiver).

For some weird reason, I cannot get the video and audio to play at the same time using any of the 4K players. For example, if turn the TV to HDMI 2, I'll get the video stream from the 4K player, but no audio. If I turn the TV to HDMI 1, I'll then get audio from the receiver, but no video signal on the TV.
With the Panasonic 420 player, it outputs in HDR10+, so I know that is working, but I just get no audio. It's interesting that the other 4K players behave the same way.

Thank you for any suggestions/help!
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6300h , 6400h , 6500h , arc , atmos , avr , avr-3300 , AVR-x2300W , avr-x3300w , connection , Denon , denon 3300 , denon avr x2300w , denon avr-x1300w , dlna , hdmi , issue , JS8500 , media player input , multi-zone , network , nexus player , OLED65E6P , pass-through , preamp , receiver problem , slingbox m1 , smart tv arc , spdif , speaker setup , video/audio , x4300h , x6300h , xbr-65x900e , zone 2 , zone 3

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