The "Official" Yamaha RX-A1060, RX-A2060 and RX-A3060 AVENTAGE AVR Thread - Page 139 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4141 of 7108 Old 04-21-2017, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by gwsat View Post

If I understand you, I should run YPAO with the subs set to "mono X2" but then configure them individually to taste. After I finish YPAO should I change the "mono X2" setting to something else before I start to configure each individual sub?
It's best to use 'mono' for movies/games because movies and games only has data for 1 LFE. Obviously the distance/delay, levels and trims are independent of each other in accordance to your MLP.

If you are setting up stereo bass for music, then that's a whole different discussion all together.

BTW, CONGRATS on that that 2 mammoth FV18s! Good luck to your organs.
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post #4142 of 7108 Old 04-21-2017, 04:26 AM
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I am finally going to be able to enjoy the benefit of my 3060's second subwoofer input. Yesterday, I ordered two Rythmik FV18s to replace my 9 years old Hsu VTF-3 MK3 Turbo. Can somebody tell me what if anything special I will need to do to get my 3060 to recognize that I have two subs?
Two 18" with 12Hz extension .... Now, that is an upgrade!

As you can imagine @gwsat , @richlife & @PioManiac I ended up in the Ryhtmik web site seen >FV18 specs< and looking how to improve my Sub, once more #SubManiacsRock

If you have not throw your towel yet @gwsat , >here some videos on REW<. You might entertain a little bit while those beasts arrive. Check video descriptions as some have reference links.

BTW, you might need REW to find the best spots for them so that YPAO "lightweight Sub Eq" can do the best possible job. I noticed those Subs have some built-in PEQ available, so it will be interesting what you can do in coordination with, or in absence of, YPAO. Enjoy your purchase & have fun!

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post #4143 of 7108 Old 04-21-2017, 04:34 AM
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Who is certifying the cables? Who verifies this? The hdmi police? Could be snake oil?...

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Originally Posted by richlife View Post
Edit-edit: Want to "future proof". Be sure that every HDMI cable you have in your HT setup, whether you expect to need it or not, has "certified premium" HDMI cable. One example: https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=15427 . All in appropriate lengths, these are sample tested to ensure they actually will pass 18GB. If you test and they fail, they will be replaced. Thes MUST have the words "certified premium" (not just certified) and MUST have that pretty scan code. If you want to buy high-priced cables , feel free -- just make sure they are "certified premium". (Why do I keep pushing this -- because everyone does have an opinion and I still see every day recommendation for certified cables and high-priced cables that simply are not up to the task. This is going to be one of the biggest challenges for HDMI 2.1 -- getting 48GB out of the same cable profile.)
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post #4144 of 7108 Old 04-21-2017, 05:26 AM
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Thanks, good to know. Which ELAC sub did you get? The $600 S12EQ, the $2000 SUB2050, or the $3500 SUB2090. That SUB 2090 looks impressive. The EQ capabilities of these subs are also very interesting. (I'm assuming the detailed app EQ capabilities shown in this version also apply to the others: https://www.amazon.com/S12EQ-Powered...elac+subwoofer .)
The S12EQ is what I got, those others are pure sex though for sure.

It uses your phone to make adjustments with the mic, the instructions say to run it after you run whatever tuning system your receiver uses. You can also make manual adjustments and switch profiles, it works pretty well.

I was worried it wouldn't be enough for my open floorplan living room but I have no complaints. Another behind me would be better but, well....

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post #4145 of 7108 Old 04-21-2017, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by jimform2k1 View Post
Who is certifying the cables? Who verifies this? The hdmi police? Could be snake oil?...
FWIW, the HDMI Forum itself does the certification for the premium cables. They are literally the HDMI police.

http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/pre...n_Program.aspx

I wish I had a nickel for every post on AVS that starts with "I'm having a problem with my 4K TV/AVR/Player but I know it's not the cable because I paid $xxx.xx for it so that can't be the problem." Followed a few days later with "It's all working now." (With the $6 certified premium cable.)

Helpful hint: the true snake oil salesmen are the ones selling cables for 10-20X the price that dont meet their claimed specs.
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post #4146 of 7108 Old 04-21-2017, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
As others stated ... the article is "announcing" the new spec ... no mention of it being "released to AVR mfr's."
OK, I guess you need more information.

http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...Zvbw37cutKL.97

This is the current state of affairs.

Cheers
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post #4147 of 7108 Old 04-21-2017, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Ralarcon View Post
OK, I guess you need more information.

http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...Zvbw37cutKL.97

This is the current state of affairs.

Cheers
So, no silicon available and so, as jdsmoothie says, no chance at all for Yamaha's 2017 AVRs, which will be almost finalised by now. Maybe 2018 and even that might be optimistic. What was your point?

Not sure what Samsung features you are talking about, maybe HDR10+, which is an alternative way of delivering Dynamic HDR using HDMI 2.0b, so it's providing some of the functionality of HDMI 2.1 (as does Dolby Vision), but it certainly isn't an implementation of 2.1
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post #4148 of 7108 Old 04-21-2017, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by jong1 View Post
So, no silicon available and so, as jdsmoothie says, no chance at all for Yamaha's 2017 AVRs, which will be almost finalised by now. Maybe 2018 and even that might be optimistic. What was your point?

Not sure what Samsung features you are talking about, maybe HDR10+, which is an alternative way of delivering Dynamic HDR using HDMI 2.0b, so it's providing some of the functionality of HDMI 2.1 (as does Dolby Vision), but it certainly isn't an implementation of 2.1
I quote Mr Chris Pasqualino.

"S&V: When can we expect to see the first HDMI 2.1-capable products?
CP: We can’t speak for the manufacturers as their product plans are up to them. But many of the 83 HDMI Forum member companies have been actively working on the specification for quite some time, so there is already some momentum in product planning. "
Read more at http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...QzFptQ1YcDp.99

"S&V: Will HDMI 2.0/a/b products be upgradeable to some or all aspects of 2.1 via a firmware upgrade?
CP: That is up to the individual manufacturers. They would have to plan for upgradability by designing and building it into their products. For some features it may be difficult and the best path will be to incorporate HDMI 2.1-enabled silicon.
Read more at http://www.soundandvision.com/content/taking-hdmi-next-level-page-2#zYv9YPImM5GFjGfJ.99"

Cheers

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post #4149 of 7108 Old 04-21-2017, 07:22 AM
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Yeah, so reading between the marketing speak here it says we might see some silicon sometime later in the year, then it can start to be built into products. Far too late for this year's Yamaha's. And a few features that don't need much additional bandwidth may be retrofitable (eARC?), but that certainly won't be true of the exciting stuff - 8K or 4K120 or VRR. Dynamic HDR I guess might also be possible, but then that's already available with Dolby Vision and, soon, HDR10+, so it's doubftful what the early introduction of HDMI 2.1-style Dynamic HDR would bring to the party other than confusion.
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post #4150 of 7108 Old 04-21-2017, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by jong1 View Post
Yeah, so reading between the marketing speak here it says we might see some silicon sometime later in the year, then it can start to be built into products. Far too late for this year's Yamaha's. And a few features that don't need much additional bandwidth may be retrofitable (eARC?), but that certainly won't be true of the exciting stuff - 8K or 4K120 or VRR. Dynamic HDR I guess might also be possible, but then that's already available with Dolby Vision and, soon, HDR10+, so it's doubftful what the early introduction of HDMI 2.1-style Dynamic HDR would bring to the party other than confusion.
"so it's doubftful what the early introduction of HDMI 2.1-style Dynamic HDR would bring to the party other than confusion."

I'm not going to disagree with you on that. But I bet the 2017 Yamaha receivers are going to be fully HDMI 2.1 compliant. However time will tell.

Cheers
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post #4151 of 7108 Old 04-21-2017, 07:34 AM
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I'm not going to disagree with you on that. But I bet the 2017 Yamaha receivers are going to be fully HDMI 2.1 compliant. However time will tell.
Let's see! I'll happily eat humble pie if it's true.

IMHO HDMI 2.1 is really a 2019 thing, if you want a selection of products and interoperability and, to be controversial, although eventually it will be ubiqitous, I'm not sure it really makes a big difference to most home cinema fans.

eARC - most eventually use STBs, like Roku to "fix" rarely updated TV apps and issues with ARC
Game VRR - yes, big if you seriously game on your big TV, otherwise not so much
8K - pointless for sets less than 75", or maybe even 100" - mainly for commercial applications
4K120 - Good for live events, not sure it will do much for movies/drama, where most still prefer a slower cadence

....but that maybe is a whole other debate!
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post #4152 of 7108 Old 04-21-2017, 07:53 AM
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YPAO will ignore the setting and run each sub independently. Mono x2 is the only setting that gives you equal output from each sub. But in all cases YPAO will configure each one separately for distance and level.
@rdgrimes -- Thanks for your help. Think I'm ready to go now. I just figured out this morning how to use AirPlay to connect my MacBook Pro running REW to my audio system so that after I run YPAO with my new subs, I can refine their settings by using REW to read their output. Glad I figured out how to do that.

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post #4153 of 7108 Old 04-21-2017, 08:50 AM
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It's best to use 'mono' for movies/games because movies and games only has data for 1 LFE. Obviously the distance/delay, levels and trims are independent of each other in accordance to your MLP.

If you are setting up stereo bass for music, then that's a whole different discussion all together.

BTW, CONGRATS on that that 2 mammoth FV18s! Good luck to your organs.
Ben -- Thanks. I use my audio setup almost exclusively for movies and TV so setting my new subs in mono clearly will be the way for me to go. The FV18s will be equidistant from my MLP, a little over 7 feet. Can you or somebody else tell me whether the YPAO function on my 3060 can be relied upon to correctly set their distance or should I do it manually?

As noted in my last post, I have figured out a way to get my audio system’s speakers to reproduce test tones generated by REW. Really looking forward to getting everything up and running.

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post #4154 of 7108 Old 04-21-2017, 09:11 AM
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So, no silicon available and so, as jdsmoothie says, no chance at all for Yamaha's 2017 AVRs, which will be almost finalised by now. Maybe 2018 and even that might be optimistic. What was your point?
Considering I'm getting a briefing in just a few weeks on the new 2017 models ... yeh .. I'd say the specs are finalized.


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Let's see! I'll happily eat humble pie if it's true.
Cherry, Apple, Lemon, or Blueberry perhaps ... but no humble pie.
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post #4155 of 7108 Old 04-21-2017, 09:14 AM
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Ben -- Thanks. I use my audio setup almost exclusively for movies and TV so setting my new subs in mono clearly will be the way for me to go. The FV18s will be equidistant from my MLP, a little over 7 feet. Can you or somebody else tell me whether the YPAO function on my 3060 can be relied upon to correctly set their distance or should I do it manually?

As noted in my last post, I have figured out a way to get my audio system’s speakers to reproduce test tones generated by REW. Really looking forward to getting everything up and running.
Let YPAO decide the distance. The reason is because the distance setting is basically the delay setting. Due to how bass waves are created with the room boundaries, setting an exact distance from your MLP to the subwoofer may actually be counter intuitive.

Also, some subs do have an internal DSP where there needs to be a delay compensation for everything (the overall soundstage basically) to sound 'locked' to in the 'sound bubble' around your MLP.

My suggestion is run YPAO first, hear how it sounds - then measure with REW and compensate accordingly. Remember to use 1/6th octave resolution when measuring with REW though, because that's about as high as YPAO can do in its manual PEQ. AND~ remember that the MOST important region to EQ is below 100hz.
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post #4156 of 7108 Old 04-21-2017, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Considering I'm getting a briefing in just a few weeks on the new 2017 models ... yeh .. I'd say the specs are finalized.




Cherry, Apple, Lemon, or Blueberry perhaps ... but no humble pie.
Well, you insinuate that the RX-A models are not HDMI 2.1 compliant. That is not so good, because then , what do you do to prolong the video switching performance of these receivers in the future ? Do you wait for the 2018's then ? Of course you can use the 2 cable solution anyhow, but if you are buying these receivers for state of the art video switching then, you will be falling behind very soon.

Cheers
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post #4157 of 7108 Old 04-21-2017, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Ralarcon View Post
Well, you insinuate that the RX-A models are not HDMI 2.1 compliant. That is not so good, because then , what do you do to prolong the video switching performance of these receivers in the future ? Do you wait for the 2018's then ? Of course you can use the 2 cable solution anyhow, but if you are buying these receivers for state of the art video switching then, you will be falling behind very soon.

Cheers
If you want to remain state-of-the-art ... you simply need to realize that "future proofing" is only about 2 years as quickly as the HDMI specs are changing.
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post #4158 of 7108 Old 04-21-2017, 09:33 AM
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If you want to remain state-of-the-art ... you simply need to realize that "future proofing" is only about 2 years as quickly as the HDMI specs are changing.
I totally agree. That is why, in my case, I only use my receiver to video switch 1080i and p sources. 4K sources go directly to the TV, with audio back to the receiver. (2 cable solution)

Cheers
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post #4159 of 7108 Old 04-21-2017, 09:43 AM
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We just get so caught up on the tech stuff....lol

1. HDMI 2.1 is a done deal, and as of this month (April) the NEW 2.1 specs started going out to manufactures that are already 2.0a compliant.
2. The only consumer product that has officially been announced to support HDMI 2.1 (being released this Fall) is the NEW XBOX (project Scorpion)
3. You will see plenty of AV products across the board in 2018 sporting HDMI 2.1

As I was ready to upgrade to the A3070 this year, I have now decided to hold off till next year and just upgrade both my receiver and TV at the same time, that way I can make sure both are HDMI 2.1 compliant.
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Let me laugh: "so there is already some momentum in product planning."

This sentence does mean nothing. First planning can be defined as the design phase and not the manufacturing phase or everything before the manufacturing phase. Second momentum can go from, some people have had some meeting around a cup of coffee to freely exchange on this new version and agree to meet again in one year, to we have plan/agree to start producing in 12 months or whatever month number you want to put here.

This is the typical sentence that allows the talker to say nothing while talking. Everyone will interpret the sentence with their own biases and will leave happy believing they got the answer or confirmation they were waiting for. Very very good speech. I will take this one next time I have to BS something.
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post #4161 of 7108 Old 04-21-2017, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
If you want to remain state-of-the-art ... you simply need to realize that "future proofing" is only about 2 years as quickly as the HDMI specs are changing.

I agree, but HDMI 2.1 is a pretty big step forward, and should satisfy future tech for several years to come. Though I do expect to the standard a/b/c variants of 2.1 over the next several years.

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post #4162 of 7108 Old 04-21-2017, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Ben Tan View Post
Let YPAO decide the distance. The reason is because the distance setting is basically the delay setting. Due to how bass waves are created with the room boundaries, setting an exact distance from your MLP to the subwoofer may actually be counter intuitive.

Also, some subs do have an internal DSP where there needs to be a delay compensation for everything (the overall soundstage basically) to sound 'locked' to in the 'sound bubble' around your MLP.

My suggestion is run YPAO first, hear how it sounds - then measure with REW and compensate accordingly. Remember to use 1/6th octave resolution when measuring with REW though, because that's about as high as YPAO can do in its manual PEQ. AND~ remember that the MOST important region to EQ is below 100hz.
I was less than clear in my last post about how I plan to use YPAO and REW to configure my existing speakers and the new Rythmik FV18s that are on the way. I will use YPAO to configure all my speakers, including the subs, but will modify the subs' configuration using REW and a MiniDSP UMIK-1. I'm going to count on YPAO to handle my viewing/listening room's acoustics when setting the non-sub speakers. I recognize, though, that the YPAO mic isn't sensitive enough to accurately configure the subs so plan on using REW and the UMIK-1 to handle that. Does this make sense?

HT setup: Sony 75XBR X940D UHD HDR TV; Kaleidescape Strato Movie Server 6 TB and Terra Server 24 TB; Yamaha RX-A3060 AV receiver; Sonamp 2-1 2channel 100W power amp; Crestron Control System; 2 Rythmik FV18 subwoofers, 6 Hsu HB-1 Bookshelf speakers, 1 Hsu HC-1 Center speaker, 4 Focal ICW8 in-ceiling Atmos speakers; Oppo UDP-203 4K HDR BD player; Mac Mini HTPC. TiVO Bolt 1TB DVR; TiVo Premiere Elite 2 TB DVR; Roku Premiere+
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post #4163 of 7108 Old 04-21-2017, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by xxrb1 View Post
Let me laugh: "so there is already some momentum in product planning."

This sentence does mean nothing. First planning can be defined as the design phase and not the manufacturing phase or everything before the manufacturing phase. Second momentum can go from, some people have had some meeting around a cup of coffee to freely exchange on this new version and agree to meet again in one year, to we have plan/agree to start producing in 12 months or whatever month number you want to put here.

This is the typical sentence that allows the talker to say nothing while talking. Everyone will interpret the sentence with their own biases and will leave happy believing they got the answer or confirmation they were waiting for. Very very good speech. I will take this one next time I have to BS something.
Perhaps, but maybe not, time will tell. However when it comes to betting with your money, you want to take all opinions into consideration, and then make a value judgement. And again , there is a work around, the 2 cable solution.

Cheers
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I was less than clear in my last post about how I plan to use YPAO and REW to configure my existing speakers and the new Rythmik FV18s that are on the way. I will use YPAO to configure all my speakers, including the subs, but will modify the subs' configuration using REW and a MiniDSP UMIK-1. I'm going to count on YPAO to handle my viewing/listening room's acoustics when setting the non-sub speakers. I recognize, though, that the YPAO mic isn't sensitive enough to accurately configure the subs so plan on using REW and the UMIK-1 to handle that. Does this make sense?
Yes
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post #4165 of 7108 Old 04-21-2017, 11:57 AM
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Well then what is this ?

http://www.trustedreviews.com/news/w...pecs-explained

Besides, Samsung QLED 2017 TV's are HDMI 2.1 compliant for some specs. Perhaps not all.

Cheers
READ the last two paragraphs of the article you link to. :whistle:

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A: Yamaha RX-V775; Chromecast Audio; iPod Classic, Touch. Bose 401 mains, 301 Series III surrounds, Yamaha NS-C444 center, Hsu VTF-2 Mk4.
V: Panasonic DMP-BDT215, Yamaha DVD-S550. Apple TV 4gen. Chromecast 1gen, Samsung UN40ES6150.
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post #4166 of 7108 Old 04-21-2017, 12:44 PM
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READ the last two paragraphs of the article you link to. :whistle:

"S&V: When can we expect to see the first HDMI 2.1-capable products?
CP: We can’t speak for the manufacturers as their product plans are up to them. But many of the 83 HDMI Forum member companies have been actively working on the specification for quite some time, so there is already some momentum in product planning. "
Read more at http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...QzFptQ1YcDp.99

Cheers
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post #4167 of 7108 Old 04-21-2017, 01:03 PM
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Let me laugh: "so there is already some momentum in product planning."

This sentence does mean nothing. First planning can be defined as the design phase and not the manufacturing phase or everything before the manufacturing phase. Second momentum can go from, some people have had some meeting around a cup of coffee to freely exchange on this new version and agree to meet again in one year, to we have plan/agree to start producing in 12 months or whatever month number you want to put here.

This is the typical sentence that allows the talker to say nothing while talking. Everyone will interpret the sentence with their own biases and will leave happy believing they got the answer or confirmation they were waiting for. Very very good speech. I will take this one next time I have to BS something.
Thank you! I read that article and kept choking on my laughter. So much "marketing" verbiage to say nothing more than what was included in the CES announcement.

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Perhaps, but maybe not, time will tell. However when it comes to betting with your money, you want to take all opinions into consideration, and then make a value judgement. And again , there is a work around, the 2 cable solution.

Cheers
I can't argue about a 2-cable solution. And I'm delighted that with my A3060 I don't have to rely on that for stunning UHD/4K and Atmos/DTS:X. In and out with "certified premium" HDMI cables (less than $10 investment) and it's all complete end-to-end. So with 2.1 leaking out over the next 2 - 3 years or more (no manufacturer has yet said that they will produce any products which FULLY support 2.1), I have the 2-cable option in my back pocket to extend my setup life. So AFAIK, my "future-proofing" will take me to at a least 2020 (I don't buy either '18 or '19) before anyone can attract me with some 2.1 enabled function.

All this forum chatter to get back where I started in my first comment (Post #4132). And sadly, nothing new stated or learned. But I do appreciate the S&V article -- at least it told me that I haven't missed anything.

Edit: Reading back, I want to apologize if that sounds like ridicule -- not intended. @Ralarcon , we just have widely different views (and maybe interpretations) about how these things will progress. I think we have reached a relatively stable "pause" in the vertical acceleration rate of A/V development and, for me, this was a good time to put a stake in the ground.
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Atmos/DTS:X HT in Vaulted Room -- LG OLED Settings Options
Yamaha RX-A3060: 7.2.4 or 7.2.2 + Zone2 (switchable); OPPO 203; LG OLED65B6P; Harmony 650 & Home Hub
Base: Mirage OM-6 (FLR), MC-si (C), OM-R2 (SLR), FRx-nine (BLR)
Presence: ELAC A4s (FP), RSL C34Es (RP); 2 aci Titan subs; RP amp: AudioSource AMP100VS

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post #4168 of 7108 Old 04-21-2017, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Ralarcon View Post
"S&V: When can we expect to see the first HDMI 2.1-capable products?
CP: We can’t speak for the manufacturers as their product plans are up to them. But many of the 83 HDMI Forum member companies have been actively working on the specification for quite some time, so there is already some momentum in product planning. "
Read more at http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...QzFptQ1YcDp.99

Cheers
Um, yeah, that proves our point, nor yours. But thanks for playing.
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post #4169 of 7108 Old 04-21-2017, 01:35 PM
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Um, yeah, that proves our point, nor yours. But thanks for playing.
Frankly, I don't think it proves anybody's point. It is a matter of waiting to see what happens. However it is certain it will happen, and in my opinion sooner than some think. (my opinion)

Cheers
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post #4170 of 7108 Old 04-21-2017, 02:13 PM
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Frankly, I don't think it proves anybody's point. It is a matter of waiting to see what happens. However it is certain it will happen, and in my opinion sooner than some think. (my opinion)

Cheers
All I would add is that, as someone who has been living on the bleeding edge of product releases for more than a year, be careful that what you buy is actually what you want or expect. As I said before, a partial implementation can make your complete setup out-of-date when a more complete option comes along months later. (As in than non-HDR 4k tv -- replaced one year later.)

Some folks can afford to buy new stuff every few months and that will never be an issue.
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Atmos/DTS:X HT in Vaulted Room -- LG OLED Settings Options
Yamaha RX-A3060: 7.2.4 or 7.2.2 + Zone2 (switchable); OPPO 203; LG OLED65B6P; Harmony 650 & Home Hub
Base: Mirage OM-6 (FLR), MC-si (C), OM-R2 (SLR), FRx-nine (BLR)
Presence: ELAC A4s (FP), RSL C34Es (RP); 2 aci Titan subs; RP amp: AudioSource AMP100VS
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