The "Official" Yamaha RX-A1060, RX-A2060 and RX-A3060 AVENTAGE AVR Thread - Page 247 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #7381 of 7460 Old 04-19-2020, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by marcosphoto View Post
Yes, "HDMI Mode" 1 confirmed as default and is designed to allow higher bitrate for video. The manual leaves you with the impression that if video does not display on 1, go to 2. As video is perfectly fine I focused elsewhere.
Some Source devices limit audio based on video.

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post #7382 of 7460 Old 04-19-2020, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
This could be the problem.
I would like to investigate your comment more, it sits in my mind too. However let me begin describing the scenario. I have had 2 previous Yamaha AVR's connected to the same speakers, after hours of trial and error we felt that in both cases they sounded better simply running the built-in subs right through the regular speaker connection. DefTech actually agrees, stating that in testing they found connecting the speakers straight using the internal line-level boards that the speakers typically sound better. I have also read many DefTech forums in the past, some people have commented on this being the case also, whereas I have never (yet) heard from anybody saying they sounded better using LFE.

FF to today. Sure, the AVR has more control over the subs when going LFE. However in reality as the subs have volume pots one can still easily tune SPL to be consistent with all other speakers and you still have manual control over crossover. Having said this, do you think the 2070 is simply having a hard time dealing with not having full control over the subs?

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post #7383 of 7460 Old 04-19-2020, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by marcosphoto View Post
Having said this, do you think the 2070 is simply having a hard time dealing with not having full control over the subs?
Yes. And in the future you should be clear about this oddity. Makes for easier evaluation.
How many "subs" do you have including the one built into the center?
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post #7384 of 7460 Old 04-19-2020, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
Yes. And in the future you should be clear about this oddity. Makes for easier evaluation.
How many "subs" do you have including the one built into the center?
While I concede I did not mention this, I remind that 2 AVR's before this I have never had an issue with the configuration and that many people are extremely happy with using this configuration with DefTech speaker arrangements. Perhaps this AVR has a problem dealing with it somehow, although I am not sure electronically why this would be the case and not any other Yamaha AVR's I have owned previous. Perhaps I will source out some LFE cables, dig my splitters out of storage and reattempt with LFE connected instead. Frankly, I don't expect an improvement based on all my past experiences - but I will investigate further.

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post #7385 of 7460 Old 04-19-2020, 08:51 AM
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The "Official" Yamaha RX-A1060, RX-A2060 and RX-A3060 AVENTAGE AVR Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcosphoto View Post
While I concede I did not mention this, I remind that 2 AVR's before this I have never had an issue with the configuration and that many people are extremely happy with using this configuration with DefTech speaker arrangements. Perhaps this AVR has a problem dealing with it somehow, although I am not sure electronically why this would be the case and not any other Yamaha AVR's I have owned previous. Perhaps I will source out some LFE cables, dig my splitters out of storage and reattempt with LFE connected instead. Frankly, I don't expect an improvement based on all my past experiences - but I will investigate further.
Lose the def techs and split your components and you’ll get better sound from a high end receiver that is designed to work with separates.

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post #7386 of 7460 Old 04-19-2020, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by TrendSetterX View Post
Lose the def techs and split your components and you’ll get better sound from a high end receiver that is designed to work with separates.
Very interesting prospective, I've never heard anyone call DefTechs substandard low-end stuff. I can experiment with separation for sure, but changing the speaker system can't happen until I win the lottery at this point.

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post #7387 of 7460 Old 04-19-2020, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
Yes. And in the future you should be clear about this oddity. Makes for easier evaluation.
How many "subs" do you have including the one built into the center?
Often, the DefTech theater systems have powered subs in all 3 front speakers. It is a fact however that DefTech claims the center channel "sub" is not actually regarded as a sub-woofer but rather includes it to enhance sound range. The center comes with a low range input in addition to the speaker jack jumpers (built-in line level adapter) input but it is not truly considered a sub by the manufacturer. Ergo, in fact, there are 2 built-in subs in the front 2 speakers. 12" 250w each powered separately through a 110v power cord in the speaker. I've been nothing but happy with these and I believe anyone you ask is also very happy with DefTech stuff. If you care to investigate them, they are BP2002TL fronts and CLR2500 center.

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post #7388 of 7460 Old 04-19-2020, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by marcosphoto View Post
Very interesting prospective, I've never heard anyone call DefTechs substandard low-end stuff. I can experiment with separation for sure, but changing the speaker system can't happen until I win the lottery at this point.
While not low-end, mixing of components is a Jack-of-all-trades (master of nine) approach to solving a problem. If the problem is that you don’t have the room/money/wife/etc to have proper separate speakers, then def tech “solves” that by combining things. And while it solves the problem, it doesn’t necessary mean that it does it well. The Aventage line of Yamahas is going to assume you have separate components and is going to tune accordingly.

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post #7389 of 7460 Old 04-19-2020, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by marcosphoto View Post
Often, the DefTech theater systems have powered subs in all 3 front speakers. It is a fact however that DefTech claims the center channel "sub" is not actually regarded as a sub-woofer but rather includes it to enhance sound range. The center comes with a low range input in addition to the speaker jack jumpers (built-in line level adapter) input but it is not truly considered a sub by the manufacturer. Ergo, in fact, there are 2 built-in subs in the front 2 speakers. 12" 250w each powered separately through a 110v power cord in the speaker. I've been nothing but happy with these and I believe anyone you ask is also very happy with DefTech stuff. If you care to investigate them, they are BP2002TL fronts and CLR2500 center.
Impressive. That info would have saved a lot of time if included in your original post. Change the cabling and rerun YPAO.

While I have no problem with deftech, doing separates has many advantages. Not the least of which is placement. Room placement is critical to good bass. You can't just place your mains wherever the bass is best. You're stuck placing them as front left and right and settling for whatever bass you get.
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post #7390 of 7460 Old 04-19-2020, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by marcosphoto View Post
Often, the DefTech theater systems have powered subs in all 3 front speakers. It is a fact however that DefTech claims the center channel "sub" is not actually regarded as a sub-woofer but rather includes it to enhance sound range. The center comes with a low range input in addition to the speaker jack jumpers (built-in line level adapter) input but it is not truly considered a sub by the manufacturer. Ergo, in fact, there are 2 built-in subs in the front 2 speakers. 12" 250w each powered separately through a 110v power cord in the speaker. I've been nothing but happy with these and I believe anyone you ask is also very happy with DefTech stuff. If you care to investigate them, they are BP2002TL fronts and CLR2500 center.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
Impressive. That info would have saved a lot of time if included in your original post. Change the cabling and rerun YPAO.

While I have no problem with deftech, doing separates has many advantages. Not the least of which is placement. Room placement is critical to good bass. You can't just place your mains wherever the bass is best. You're stuck placing them as front left and right and settling for whatever bass you get.
I agree with Bond. Rerun YPAO, and for gosh sakes hook up the sub(s) the proper way via LFE/RCA connection. Sounds like those DefTech speakers don't need audio running through the sub's passive connections (speaker wire, bandpass filter).

Aaaaaand ... while you're at it you might want to switch to the actual 1070, 2070, 3070 thread here. Though differences between the x060 and x070 range might be minimal, configuration screens may've changed.

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post #7391 of 7460 Old 04-20-2020, 05:27 AM
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Very much appreciate all your help guys, I have already started shopping for cables. I would need at least 1 - 25' cable and while the other could be as short as 10' I am leaning to make sure they are both the same length to keep consistency. They will have to be split from the single out of the AVR which is very normal with the DefTech multiple sub arrangements. If it doesn't work, I will be even more money in the hole but...in the name of science!
In the meantime, I have also redirected the question to the xx70 thread as ChromeJob suggested. I started here first I think because I wanted to see any comments from people who used to own older 20xx and upgraded to newer 20xx - this way I could get some feedback about the differences in sound as the model line matured.

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post #7392 of 7460 Old 04-20-2020, 10:33 AM
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They will have to be split from the single out of the AVR which is very normal with the DefTech multiple sub arrangements.
Why?
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post #7393 of 7460 Old 04-20-2020, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
Why?
I know I'm going to get more anti-DefTech criticism for saying this but since they are built-in subs and there are 2 front channels, we DefTech users have to split the single sub output of a receiver into two cables then trim the pots on each speaker accordingly to adjust for any signal loss that may have occurred due to splitting. The 2070 has 2 sub outputs but for front and back, not 2 front. I just came home with the cables, tomorrow morning I attempt the setup.

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post #7394 of 7460 Old 04-20-2020, 12:13 PM
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The 2070 has 2 sub outputs but for front and back, not 2 front.
As you wish but this is incorrect.
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post #7395 of 7460 Old 04-20-2020, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
As you wish but this is incorrect.
Indeed, the subwoofer selection of the layout menu for the 2070 provides these three possible settings when using two subs:

Left & Right
Front & Back
Monaural

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post #7396 of 7460 Old 04-20-2020, 10:57 PM
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Wouldn't it be best to set it to monaural, then simply make sure the phase is correct. Wait, phase in this case would not matter since the subs are passive built in with the rest of the full range speaker? I would set it to monaural...never understood what advantage there would be for selecting Front & Back or even Left & Right since 99% of all recorded bass is in mono.

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post #7397 of 7460 Old 04-21-2020, 04:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
As you wish but this is incorrect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwillcox View Post
Indeed, the subwoofer selection of the layout menu for the 2070 provides these three possible settings when using two subs:

Left & Right
Front & Back
Monaural
In this instance at least - I stand corrected. The rear panel is labelled front/rear but reading the manual you are correct that there are indeed different configurations for subs. If this AVR sounds like one would expect when all connected properly, I shall be a very happy camper. I will know more in a couple hours, I am just getting geared up to start the trials.

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Wouldn't it be best to set it to monaural, then simply make sure the phase is correct. Wait, phase in this case would not matter since the subs are passive built in with the rest of the full range speaker? I would set it to monaural...never understood what advantage there would be for selecting Front & Back or even Left & Right since 99% of all recorded bass is in mono.
Tis an interesting question, might have to speak to a Dolby or DTX audio mixer. Is LF also recorded in surround? If there is an explosion to the side, would a dual sub configuration have a stronger representation of this effect? In any case, connecting the built-in subs without LFE would allow no option for mistake in connection. However as I now convert to trying LFE cables, certainly it would make sense to connect in phase - regardless of how the source was recorded.

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post #7399 of 7460 Old 04-21-2020, 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Thebarnman View Post
Wouldn't it be best to set it to monaural, then simply make sure the phase is correct. Wait, phase in this case would not matter since the subs are passive built in with the rest of the full range speaker? I would set it to monaural...never understood what advantage there would be for selecting Front & Back or even Left & Right since 99% of all recorded bass is in mono.
Agreed. Nearly everyone uses Monaural x2
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post #7400 of 7460 Old 04-21-2020, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by marcosphoto View Post
Tis an interesting question, might have to speak to a Dolby or DTX audio mixer. Is LF also recorded in surround? If there is an explosion to the side, would a dual sub configuration have a stronger representation of this effect? In any case, connecting the built-in subs without LFE would allow no option for mistake in connection. However as I now convert to trying LFE cables, certainly it would make sense to connect in phase - regardless of how the source was recorded.
It's easy enough to just play around with the setting and use whatever sounds best.
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post #7401 of 7460 Old 04-21-2020, 09:34 AM
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End result after another morning consumed - by unanimous decision - RXV1075 simply sounds better to both my wifes and my ears! I did everything possible within reasonably advanced skill levels (short of hiring a pro) and I simply cannot get the 2070 to sound as good. While I agree, the 2070 sounds a little crisper/clearer with better surround imaging. The 1075 sounds noticeably fuller, with more dynamic range across the whole spectrum. While watching with dB meter, when starting scenes at the same normal levels with both AVR's, the 1075 will hit a lot harder during loud scenes with higher dB than the 2070 and quiet back down to the same gentle level during quiet passages. Ears hurt when listening to the 2070 and it's not due to SPL as confirmed by instrument - the 2070 is just harder to listen to in relation to the 1075. The 1075 seems to just have a right in your face sound, whereas the 2070 seems like you're watching the movie from 100feet away - not with regards to volume but rather the fullness of the sound. It's like you're right there present in the middle of the concert vs watching the concert on a flatscreen TV with the crappy built-in speakers. (I think this is the most accurate comparison I can think of). Ultimately, how the subs were connected made no real difference on the quality of the sound, just moved the bass levels around and smoothed the crossover a bit.

I've even connected the subs to the LFE cables in the 1075 just to make sure we're comparing apples to apples and still the old 1075 is capable of sounding better even though I have to split the LFE on the RXV. And the strangest thing, even through the 1075 is 110wpc and the 2070 135wpc - to arrive at the same SPL in the room the 1075 only needs -26 on the volume dial wheras the 2070 needs -19. Cranking the sound to -10 on both AVRs, the 1075 would blow the 2070 out of the water for volume, as it raised higher and faster than the 2070. Huh?

Now the question is, does the replacement RX-V1085 the same sound as the 1075 with newer compatibility or will it sound the same as the 2070? So frustrated and tired I may not even bother pursuing it and just keep running the video direct from the BR.

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post #7402 of 7460 Old 04-21-2020, 10:48 AM
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Now the question is, does the replacement RX-V1085 the same sound as the 1075 with newer compatibility or will it sound the same as the 2070? So frustrated and tired I may not even bother pursuing it and just keep running the video direct from the BR.
1085 will almost certainly sound the same as 2070.
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post #7403 of 7460 Old 04-22-2020, 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted by marcosphoto View Post
Tis an interesting question, might have to speak to a Dolby or DTX audio mixer. Is LF also recorded in surround? If there is an explosion to the side, would a dual sub configuration have a stronger representation of this effect? In any case, connecting the built-in subs without LFE would allow no option for mistake in connection. However as I now convert to trying LFE cables, certainly it would make sense to connect in phase - regardless of how the source was recorded.
At a certain low frequency bass becomes non directional. Some say it's around 40 Hz. With a sub, the direction of the explosion of where it's coming whether it's from the left, right, center or rear is determined from those areas because of higher frequencies, not the placement of the sub.

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non directional.
Omnidirectional
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post #7405 of 7460 Old 04-22-2020, 03:08 AM
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Omnidirectional

Ah yes.

Thank you!

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Originally Posted by TrendSetterX View Post
While not low-end, mixing of components is a Jack-of-all-trades (master of nine) approach to solving a problem. If the problem is that you don’t have the room/money/wife/etc to have proper separate speakers, then def tech “solves” that by combining things. And while it solves the problem, it doesn’t necessary mean that it does it well. The Aventage line of Yamahas is going to assume you have separate components and is going to tune accordingly.
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I agree with Bond. Rerun YPAO, and for gosh sakes hook up the sub(s) the proper way via LFE/RCA connection. Sounds like those DefTech speakers don't need audio running through the sub's passive connections (speaker wire, bandpass filter).

Aaaaaand ... while you're at it you might want to switch to the actual 1070, 2070, 3070 thread here. Though differences between the x060 and x070 range might be minimal, configuration screens may've changed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwillcox View Post
Indeed, the subwoofer selection of the layout menu for the 2070 provides these three possible settings when using two subs:

Left & Right
Front & Back
Monaural
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
1085 will almost certainly sound the same as 2070.

To all of you contributing to my dilemma - I cannot thank you enough for your time, skills and opinions. A recap:
Wanted to upgrade from my RX-V1075, I loved it but needed hdcp2.2 and would have liked the extra 2sp. For those of you who don't know this Canadian market AVR - the RX-V10xx series is the previous version RX-A10xx model minus a few features. As such it sits heads and shoulders above the rest of the RX-V lineup. Bought RX-A2070, spend copious amounts of time with it but couldn't get it to sound decent. Bought demo RX-V1085 with high hopes, Yamaha did not disappoint - it sounded almost as good as my 1075 but required a few minor tweaks.

However having learned a few things in the process, I went back to the RX-A2070 and started tweaking everything and actually managed to get sound my wife and I were very content with.

Highs continued to be the largest problem, killing our ears during almost all scenes to the point where our head hurt at the end of a flick. and voices sounded flat. Had to reduce treble -3.5, increase dialog to +2.5 and increase center output by 2.5dB to start getting it better. This really helped tame the highs.

The 2070 YPAO also seemed more sensitive to bass frequencies than the 1075/1085 and it is here I found a workaround which involved my def-tech subs and some ingenuity. I found the older the model the less responsive YPAO was to sub frequencies so I would just tune YPAO then set the sub pot on the speaker with a test tone CD. As the models get newer they seem to include more of the sub in the YPAO which with the DefTechs seem to be a slight confusion. (Hence the improvement in subs when I connected LFE). For some reason, when I turned the pots on the speakers to 11 o-clock then ran YPAO and then turned the pots back up to 1 o-clock it really made huge improvements in leveling out the bass. Don't ask me why, but no matter how I connected the subs after this (direct to speaker outputs using internal crossover or LFE) I got very similar performance in the bottom end. Currently I am back to my original configuration of not using the LFE.

There still are differences, cannot say which sounds better. The 1075/1085 has far more SPL at any given point on the dial during normal scenes, rises immensely in SPL as the scene gets louder but then increase backs off during loud scenes. The 2070 seems to always be lower SPL for normal scenes, barely rises in SPL as the scenes get louder but punch a little harder in the loud scenes. (1075/1085 volume at -25, normal s. 70dB, medium s. 76dB, loud scene 78dB. 2070 volume at -22, normal s. 68dB, medium s. 71dB, loud scene 80dB). These characteristics were quite consistent always no matter what features I toggled or what speaker setup I performed. Seems for all it's super-high power, the 2070 always lacks in some way as compared to other models which may account for why people complain they are not rated truthfully. I would still rather take the sound of the RX-V to be honest, it remains slightly more pleasing to the both of us. However they are now set up so close that I will keep the 2070 after all and return the 1085 demo. I'll tell all you RX-A guys, the RX-V10xx serious is some serious contender and proves there is nothing wrong with a slightly older RX-A10xx.

Panasonic DP-UB820, Yamaha RX-V1075, Epson 5040UB. Elunevision Reference 4K 125" screen.
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post #7407 of 7460 Old 04-22-2020, 10:11 AM
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Perhaps one day I will not be sick and tired of messing with sound in the theater and start getting into full manual setup. I think there are some reflections in the room that YPAO seems to be struggling with in the 2070 and I noticed in the EQ the high frequencies are exaggerated in the front 3 speakers. I think this accounts for the ear piercing highs we are getting. However the user cannot tweak the response within the "EQ Flat" menu - only see what the AVR is doing with it. It appears to adjust anything one has to go to "manual" where it starts with complete baseline and you would have to type in hundreds of settings between all the speakers. Would have been nicer if you could take the YPAO "EQ flat" and tweak it from there. Either way, seems like I am the owner of a 2070. Odd that no one in the 2070 thread responded to my query.

Panasonic DP-UB820, Yamaha RX-V1075, Epson 5040UB. Elunevision Reference 4K 125" screen.
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post #7408 of 7460 Old 04-22-2020, 11:14 AM
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Perhaps one day I will not be sick and tired of messing with sound in the theater and start getting into full manual setup. I think there are some reflections in the room that YPAO seems to be struggling with in the 2070 and I noticed in the EQ the high frequencies are exaggerated in the front 3 speakers. I think this accounts for the ear piercing highs we are getting. However the user cannot tweak the response within the "EQ Flat" menu - only see what the AVR is doing with it. It appears to adjust anything one has to go to "manual" where it starts with complete baseline and you would have to type in hundreds of settings between all the speakers. Would have been nicer if you could take the YPAO "EQ flat" and tweak it from there. Either way, seems like I am the owner of a 2070. Odd that no one in the 2070 thread responded to my query.
If Manual is baseline there's something wrong. Usually means YPAO has not been run.
However you can copy flat to manual and then tweak.
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post #7409 of 7460 Old 04-23-2020, 04:16 AM
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If Manual is baseline there's something wrong. Usually means YPAO has not been run.
However you can copy flat to manual and then tweak.
I cannot comment on manual being empty, but flat is baseline if YPAO is not run (makes sense) according to the manual and there is no mention of manual being populated. I've just this morning confirmed in manual the user can copy from another setting and tweak it - just as you suggested. I've definitely run it and seen the Flat is doing all it's corrections. Not sure why manual is all flat, I swear at one point I saw curves in the manual section too, although not sure it was with the 2070 as I had spent copious amounts of time in total between 3 of them. One thing is for sure, the RX-V10xx series are insanely good AVRs, makes me think I would have been better off with a 2060 as it seems Yamahas older stuff is better. My old Yamaha RX-V1075 is the same as the RX-A1030 and the RX-V1085 which is their most recent that I bought a few days ago when I started giving up - is the same as the RX-A1080. Both of these RX-V's sounded excellent and the same, and frankly I'm a little heart broken to have had resort to cranking controls way out of default/bypass to make the 2070 sound even close. I think maybe Yamaha mucked up on this model somewhat as I read far less rave reviews on the 2070 as I do the 2060.

Panasonic DP-UB820, Yamaha RX-V1075, Epson 5040UB. Elunevision Reference 4K 125" screen.

Last edited by marcosphoto; 04-23-2020 at 04:29 AM.
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post #7410 of 7460 Old 04-23-2020, 05:24 AM
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I cannot comment on manual being empty, but flat is baseline if YPAO is not run (makes sense) according to the manual and there is no mention of manual being populated. I've just this morning confirmed in manual the user can copy from another setting and tweak it - just as you suggested. I've definitely run it and seen the Flat is doing all it's corrections. Not sure why manual is all flat, I swear at one point I saw curves in the manual section too, although not sure it was with the 2070 as I had spent copious amounts of time in total between 3 of them. One thing is for sure, the RX-V10xx series are insanely good AVRs, makes me think I would have been better off with a 2060 as it seems Yamahas older stuff is better. My old Yamaha RX-V1075 is the same as the RX-A1030 and the RX-V1085 which is their most recent that I bought a few days ago when I started giving up - is the same as the RX-A1080. Both of these RX-V's sounded excellent and the same, and frankly I'm a little heart broken to have had resort to cranking controls way out of default/bypass to make the 2070 sound even close. I think maybe Yamaha mucked up on this model somewhat as I read far less rave reviews on the 2070 as I do the 2060.
I have the 3060. Why not keep the 1085 to get the excellent sound you desire?
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