Official Marantz AV7703 Thread - Page 19 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #541 of 1847 Old 12-16-2016, 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by SteveH View Post
Clarification. See https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/sonos#/entity

Sonos raised $130M just in 2014. $455.15M in 9 Rounds. Expect more rounds of needed financing by both companies.

If HEOS was a me-to technology, then there would be no reason to bother. Personally, I would have owned Sonos but their 1st generation SQ was underwhelming. But I'm not a typical buyer. I personally will pick SQ over form factor and looks. So the reason why I had an interest in HEOS (before it was embedded in products like the 7703) was because it sounded a lot better to my ears. Especially comparing the 1st generation Sonos to the HEOS. SONOS upped their game on their 2nd round. Now, I think it sounds decent. I still want to compare these two side by side. IMHO, the HEOS 1V2 is not worth discussing the SQ. They ahve their function. But the 5's and the 7's are the great sounding boxes (especially the 7's).

With that said, HEOS had to differentiate themselves versus chasing disgruntled Sonos dealers (there are plenty of them out there) or dealers who touted SQ which sadly, is the minority of dealers. So to attract the interest of the installers, they created the HEOS Drive https://usa.denon.com/us/heos-drive . That peaked my interest some for my personal system but not enough to buy one for myself. With this new HEOS Drive, I could have a hardwired mulitzone, 4 zone solution with built in amplification and augment my other rooms with the wireless boxes. Then comes the next innovation of putting the HEOS Link inside of the receivers like what happened in the 7703. For me that feature was a game changer. Now I can have my receiver as the brain of my multizone. But for people who want to listen to music and movies on the same system which includes about 1/3 of AVS type members, the HEOS interface is big. Yesterday, I finally was motivated to try the HEOS Drive for myself. Now I can have one platform throughout my home.

Rewind a hear ago, NO ONE asked me about HEOS. It was a installer driven, "me-to" technology. Inside of a couple of months, I've speced in 2 HEOS Drives because of the embedded HEOS in the 7703. All of this takes a lot of time and money. Initially, you are bleeding cash until you get the "hook" into dealers and end users. As of now, there are three players in this market. Sonos, Bose, and HEOS. Bose and Sonos are the big guys by a wide margin followed by HEOS. Without them spending money on giving away HEOS boxes, the embedded Link for free, new innovations, no one would be taking about HEOS. But they certainly are starting Q4 of 2016.
Great info - thanks for the background.

Still, why on God's green Earth can't HEOS play an Apple lossless file, which they advertise themselves as able to play? I sure hope they resolve this.

"These go to eleven."

Equipment: Goldenear Triton Ones, SuperCenter XXL, Aon 2 surrounds, Invisa 650 ceiling speakers, Oppo BD 103d, Marantz 7702 mk2, Outlaw 2200 M-block (2) & 7125 7-channel, Roku 4, Sonos, and way too many old speakers, including an original pair of Ascend Acoustics CBM-170s, one of the flattest frequency bookshelf speakers SoundStage ever measured.
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post #542 of 1847 Old 12-16-2016, 05:38 AM
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I want Heos to succeed and i hope they will. Sonos needs a good competition otherwise they will continue to be stagnant. The decision to include an embedded Heos module inside avr was a brilliant move on D$M's part. I for one, enjoy it very much.


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post #543 of 1847 Old 12-16-2016, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenMindAudio View Post
Great info - thanks for the background.

Still, why on God's green Earth can't HEOS play an Apple lossless file, which they advertise themselves as able to play? I sure hope they resolve this.
See http://denon.custhelp.com/app/answer...ported-by-heos Those are the formats that work. And, I am very sure they will work. Saying that, I rip and play FLAC files. I never personally tried ALAC. But note their comment about not working with DRM (Digital Rights Management).

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post #544 of 1847 Old 12-16-2016, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveH View Post
See http://denon.custhelp.com/app/answer...ported-by-heos Those are the formats that work. And, I am very sure they will work. Saying that, I rip and play FLAC files. I never personally tried ALAC. But note their comment about not working with DRM (Digital Rights Management).
Like I said, let's hope it will work. There's no DRM issue, since these are all ripped from my personal CDs. And they all play on Sonos, Musiccast, my PC, my receivers, etc. with no issue whatsoever.
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post #545 of 1847 Old 12-16-2016, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveH View Post
See http://denon.custhelp.com/app/answer...ported-by-heos Those are the formats that work. And, I am very sure they will work. Saying that, I rip and play FLAC files. I never personally tried ALAC. But note their comment about not working with DRM (Digital Rights Management).
PS - SteveH, Heos-Denon should employ YOU as a customer service rep. You're a lot more responsive than they are!!! Appreciate it.

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Equipment: Goldenear Triton Ones, SuperCenter XXL, Aon 2 surrounds, Invisa 650 ceiling speakers, Oppo BD 103d, Marantz 7702 mk2, Outlaw 2200 M-block (2) & 7125 7-channel, Roku 4, Sonos, and way too many old speakers, including an original pair of Ascend Acoustics CBM-170s, one of the flattest frequency bookshelf speakers SoundStage ever measured.
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post #546 of 1847 Old 12-16-2016, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by OpenMindAudio View Post
Great info - thanks for the background.

Still, why on God's green Earth can't HEOS play an Apple lossless file, which they advertise themselves as able to play? I sure hope they resolve this.
Apple Lossless has been an open source published standard for years. Not that hard to do.
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post #547 of 1847 Old 12-17-2016, 07:03 AM
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Apple Lossless has been an open source published standard for years. Not that hard to do.
Somebody has to actually implement it and get it certified on whatever DSPs/CPUs are being used by the hardware. I suspect that process simply hasn't finished yet.

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post #548 of 1847 Old 12-17-2016, 07:24 AM
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Somebody has to actually implement it and get it certified on whatever DSPs/CPUs are being used by the hardware. I suspect that process simply hasn't finished yet.
Again, it's really not hard to do. If you use a device with Airplay, it's already baked in. But even if you are going the open source approach, Apple Lossless (ALAC) is just a compressed container for PCM audio, not unlike FLAC or any other standard. Apple even provides sample code.
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post #549 of 1847 Old 12-17-2016, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenfeet View Post
Again, it's really not hard to do. If you use a device with Airplay, it's already baked in. But even if you are going the open source approach, Apple Lossless (ALAC) is just a compressed container for PCM audio, not unlike FLAC or any other standard. Apple even provides sample code.
But, again, somebody has spend the time to actually do it. I'm sure it'll be available sooner or later.

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post #550 of 1847 Old 12-17-2016, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenfeet View Post
Again, it's really not hard to do. If you use a device with Airplay, it's already baked in. But even if you are going the open source approach, Apple Lossless (ALAC) is just a compressed container for PCM audio, not unlike FLAC or any other standard. Apple even provides sample code.

FLAC has been open source before ALAC. Apple does NOT support FLAC. NIH is alive and well.


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post #551 of 1847 Old 12-17-2016, 09:16 PM
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FLAC has been open source before ALAC. Apple does support FLAC. NIH is alive and well.


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Since when does Apple and specifically iTunes support FLAC?

Yes, FLAC has been a thing longer than open source ALAC but ALAC became open source in 2011. That's plenty of time, especially when I said earlier that Apple provides sample code to test or just outright borrow.
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post #552 of 1847 Old 12-18-2016, 02:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenMindAudio View Post
Great info - thanks for the background.

Still, why on God's green Earth can't HEOS play an Apple lossless file, which they advertise themselves as able to play? I sure hope they resolve this.
Must be the Link specifically as there is no problem for the HEOS speakers to play ALAC files.
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post #553 of 1847 Old 12-18-2016, 06:17 AM
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Auro 3D Upgrade

The Auro 3D Upgrade will be available for purchase/download for the AV7703 on January 5, 2017.

https://www.avsforum.com/latest-auro-...pro-announced/
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post #554 of 1847 Old 12-18-2016, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenfeet View Post
Since when does Apple and specifically iTunes support FLAC?

Yes, FLAC has been a thing longer than open source ALAC but ALAC became open source in 2011. That's plenty of time, especially when I said earlier that Apple provides sample code to test or just outright borrow.
Whops, forgot the NOT. Apple does not support FLAC (which is ubiquitous)...for no apparent reason.


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post #555 of 1847 Old 12-18-2016, 02:53 PM
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Whops, forgot the NOT. Apple does not support FLAC (which is ubiquitous)...for no apparent reason.
Agree. Not sure why iTunes doesn't handle FLAC files after all these years. They do support Apple Lossless up to 32 bit/384 khz and HDTracks sells ALAC in 24/192 music all the time. And iTunes still supports WAV files.
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post #556 of 1847 Old 12-19-2016, 11:54 AM
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For the audio perfectionist, and assuming for the moment that the uber app coming out to replace ADSY pro might still leave EQ imperfections, is it reasonable to pair a miniDSP 2x4 with the AV7703 for final parametric EQing?

I guess it comes down to two things. The miniDSP DAC seems like the main concern since it would take the analog signal, convert to digital, and then back to analog. So would I be throwing away the high quality value-add of the Marantz DACs in this case?

Also there is the noise component but I don't have super high efficiency speakers, and even if/when I upgrade to revel performa 3 this will continue to be the case. (I would be using an emotiva Gen 3 for amplification).

My idea was to buy 2 of them, one for front L/R and one for Center channel and my only subwoofer (SVS PB-1000 - someday to become an SVS SB-16U).

Maybe it would be worthwhile for just the sub? What would I be giving up in order to attain EQ perfection? Would the trade off be worth it?

I'm soooooo drawn to the geekdom of programatically tweaking a PEQ!!!!

Thanks for the opinions.
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post #557 of 1847 Old 12-19-2016, 12:32 PM
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The 2x4 is fine for subs but noisy on mains.

Even the better 4x10 is pretty noisy.

Motu has the new 8a out. That would be much better but higher cost.

If you want to eq on top of audyssey because it isn't good enough I'd go with a different product that does what you need instead of using a band-aid approach.
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post #558 of 1847 Old 12-19-2016, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenMindAudio View Post
Like I said, let's hope it will work. There's no DRM issue, since these are all ripped from my personal CDs. And they all play on Sonos, Musiccast, my PC, my receivers, etc. with no issue whatsoever.
Just an update on this issue -- oh, wait, there is no update, since Denon STILL has not gotten back to me, four days after escalating this to Tier 2 and saying they'd call me. (I'll be damned if I'm waiting 45 minutes on hold again to hear them tell me they'll call back.)

The Heos Link still won't play ALAC/mp4/Apple Lossless files, though it is advertised as being able to do this.

Still hoping they will clear this up and that I can enjoy this product, for which I continue to hold out hope.

Denon/Heos, if you are listening, the case is reference #161214-000305. Please contact me.
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post #559 of 1847 Old 12-20-2016, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calderes View Post
For the audio perfectionist, and assuming for the moment that the uber app coming out to replace ADSY pro might still leave EQ imperfections, is it reasonable to pair a miniDSP 2x4 with the AV7703 for final parametric EQing?

I guess it comes down to two things. The miniDSP DAC seems like the main concern since it would take the analog signal, convert to digital, and then back to analog. So would I be throwing away the high quality value-add of the Marantz DACs in this case?

Also there is the noise component but I don't have super high efficiency speakers, and even if/when I upgrade to revel performa 3 this will continue to be the case. (I would be using an emotiva Gen 3 for amplification).

My idea was to buy 2 of them, one for front L/R and one for Center channel and my only subwoofer (SVS PB-1000 - someday to become an SVS SB-16U).

Maybe it would be worthwhile for just the sub? What would I be giving up in order to attain EQ perfection? Would the trade off be worth it?

I'm soooooo drawn to the geekdom of programatically tweaking a PEQ!!!!

Thanks for the opinions.
I've used the miniDSP OpenDRC-AN for my mains and it worked great, but I sure would have loved to have a channel option. It is now back on my subs for L/T and EQ duty.

@dwaleke that new motu looks awesome. I feel like I would get lost in all the filters though! I might still have to try that out. Time to buy 16 more cables I guess.... haha
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post #560 of 1847 Old 12-21-2016, 10:36 AM
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Steve - I've been so busy that I haven't been able to listen for the last several days. I will find time this weekend and let you know what I hear (or don't hear).
SteveH - just a quick update. I've listened quite a bit between the airplay and Heos link (both tidal hifi and Spotify premium) and all I can say is that i feel that I can notice a slight difference when I don't listen for it. For example, if I'm listening to enjoy/feel the music then I seem to prefer the heos as it seems to be a bit cleaner. Is it such a difference that I'd recommend purchasing a heos for a sq benefit if u already use airplay? No. Would I say it is a "night and day" difference or even "a clear" or "definite" difference? No. Am I 100% certain that there is a clear audible benefit to heos over airplay? No. Would I choose listening via Heos over airplay from a sq perspective if given both options? Yes. Were there a couple of times that Airplay seemed to sound better? Yes. But only a couple of times when I was trying to listen analytically. Could this all be my mind tricking me? Yes.

Again, the bottom line for me is that I wouldn't purchase heos if I already had airplay unless I wanted to get my ht into a heos ecosystem. If I had heos ecosystem and the Link then I'd likely use it instead of airplay more often than not because I do seem to notice a cleaner sound when listening casually w/o caring to identify specific differences/improvements. Of course, if I could listen via Apple TV (if there is an app released for it) or some other hard-wired device (any other than heos/Sonos?) then I would do that, again, unless I needed the heos connectivity.

One thing worth noting - when I would play a few test tones (e.g. 400hz tone, 600hz tone) via heos and airplay, the heos would always produce a clean tone the entire time whereas the tone would break up a bit when playing via airplay once in awhile. (Maybe 25% of the time). Do I think this indicates anything with the airplay connection? Maybe. I know I have a strong network connection and this is not ever noticed during music playback with airplay or heos, and there is no indication that it is buffering or the connection/streaming of the audio. It appears to be the Airplay connection from the device to my avr. I wanted to mention this in case others wanted to test this as well. I may look to see if I notice this with all my Apple Airplay devices (iphones, iPad) to possibly identify any issue specific to a particular device. Unfortunately, I don't have anything other than my AVR that I can airplay to, so I cant isolate my AVR as a potential cause.

Note - The heos app/interface leaves a bit to be desired and could use some work. Why can't the tidal app play to the heos link? You have to play it through the heos app. On the other hand, the Spotify app can play to the heos link directly, but it disables the playback features within the app that I like to use from time to time (e.g. Crossfade, eq adjustment, etc.)

Last edited by zdoggz; 12-21-2016 at 07:34 PM.
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post #561 of 1847 Old 12-22-2016, 02:49 PM
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So im having a peculiar issue with heos on my 7703. Today i started to play music from my dedicated music server (wd wireless mybook) and it is stuck on it now, im trying to change form music server to pandora or amazon music but nothing works, 7703 reverts back to playing music server playlist. I have tried both the app and on 7703 itself and no matter. I better not be told to do the infamous D$M microprocessor reset.

Overall, getting pretty annoyed how unpolished heos is. Really starting to regret selling my sonos speakers. Not sure if heos will ever reach the level of sonos.


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post #562 of 1847 Old 12-22-2016, 06:44 PM
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So im having a peculiar issue with heos on my 7703. Today i started to play music from my dedicated music server (wd wireless mybook) and it is stuck on it now, im trying to change form music server to pandora or amazon music but nothing works, 7703 reverts back to playing music server playlist. I have tried both the app and on 7703 itself and no matter. I better not be told to do the infamous D$M microprocessor reset.

Overall, getting pretty annoyed how unpolished heos is. Really starting to regret selling my sonos speakers. Not sure if heos will ever reach the level of sonos.


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Doing a "soft reset" (ie. power off and unplug the power cable for 10 minutes) should resolve the issue.
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post #563 of 1847 Old 12-22-2016, 07:38 PM
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Doing a "soft reset" (ie. power off and unplug the power cable for 10 minutes) should resolve the issue.


Didn't help. Im at a loss here


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post #564 of 1847 Old 12-22-2016, 08:48 PM
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I think you can reset just the network card. I forgot the commands for it though.


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post #565 of 1847 Old 12-23-2016, 12:09 AM
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Didn't help. Im at a loss here


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Discrete Network chip reset (no settings lost).
1 - With the AVP powered ON, select "Online Music" as the input source.
2 - Simultaneously press/hold the "Back" + "Enter" buttons on the front panel
3 - Hold the buttons for a few seconds until the display reads "Network Restart" and then release the buttons.

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post #566 of 1847 Old 12-23-2016, 12:59 AM
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Had to do a full reset. The only thing that worked.

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post #567 of 1847 Old 12-23-2016, 02:34 AM
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Discrete Network chip reset (no settings lost).
1 - With the AVP powered ON, select "Online Music" as the input source.
2 - Simultaneously press/hold the "M-DAX" + "DYNAMIC EQ" buttons on the front panel
3 - Hold the buttons for a few seconds until the display reads "Network Restart" and then release the buttons.
My manual states "back+enter" ?
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post #568 of 1847 Old 12-23-2016, 06:12 AM
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Anyone here of any update for the audyssey mobile app?

Im really excited to try it out, and hope we can turn off thst darn midrange comp setting (the dip they add for crossover)
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post #569 of 1847 Old 12-23-2016, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by staaled View Post
My manual states "back+enter" ?
Oops, yup indeed it does .. Edited to show the correct buttons.
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post #570 of 1847 Old 12-24-2016, 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted by OpenMindAudio View Post
Well, not good so far. The Heos Link 2 will not play Apple lossless (alac, .mp4a), even though it's advertised as a compatible format. These are my own files ripped from CDs, without any DRM issues, and they play fine on all other players in my house, including Sonos and my networked receivers (Marantz, Yamaha, before that, Onkyo).
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See http://denon.custhelp.com/app/answer...ported-by-heos Those are the formats that work. And, I am very sure they will work. Saying that, I rip and play FLAC files. I never personally tried ALAC. But note their comment about not working with DRM (Digital Rights Management).
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Must be the Link specifically as there is no problem for the HEOS speakers to play ALAC files.
I ripped a few files from CD to .mp4a via iTunes to test. They play just fine via USB and a HS2 Heos Link.

We have been Android users for the last 3 years. Even though my wife has an iPhone 6s+ for work and I have an iPad mini we primarily use our Samsung S7s.

I need to test the IOS version of the Heos app because I am not seeing my NAS in the Android Heos App. I have the NAS and several other PCs that should be seen via DLNA but are not.

We are going to be choosing a premium music streaming service soon and have been kicking a few around (I would like unlimited cloud storage for personally owned music/rips). I am disappointed that Google Play Music is not yet supported.

My wife uses Amazon Prime Music and says none of her custom playlists are accessible through the Heos app. I had to setup bluetooth so she can use her exercise playlists.
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