The "OFFICIAL" Yamaha TSR-7810/RX-v781 Owner's thread. - Page 61 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1801 of 2067 Old 09-11-2018, 09:19 PM
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Are you sure you're looking at the right manual. I see nothing on page 158 about this. I'm not saying I didn't miss something but sure don't see what you're pointing to.

And if that is the case I may still be in luck as the device is a WII so it supports those resolutions.

PG 185 does back up what you said. I'll wait for the call back from Tier 2. Obviously the 1020 handled it and the Denon X2500H handles it so it may be one more tick on the compare/contrast. Walking down the AVR ladder is no where near as fun as walking up the ladder!

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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Oh I thought you had a TSR-7810. Never mind.

Sometimes selecting "pure direct", or other such features means "No video conversion for you! Back of the line.!"

I would suggest scanning your manual for the word "component" and read ever sentence that uses it. Maybe one will explain what's going on. Good luck.

UPDATE: I have bad news buddy. According to p158 of your manual the only kind of component video in your unit takes is 480i/576i [SD not HD]. Sorry, that sucks, I know.

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post #1802 of 2067 Old 09-11-2018, 09:28 PM
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Yea I meant that page. I'm a little dyslexic.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...1&d=1536722896
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post #1803 of 2067 Old 09-11-2018, 10:35 PM
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Yes, that's the table I pointed you to! Good catch on the resolutions!

So I took the WII, plugged it into the TV, changed the resolution to 480i and it now works via the receiver. Shocked the Yamaha guy didn't know that but it is a DUMB design choice.

Now I may be back to square one though the WII gets used VERY infrequently and I've already got an optical run from the TV to the AVR so I may just move it to the TV directly. What a foolish design to put a component input that is limited to 480i. I hope that design engineer sat on a fully charged capacitor in a wet bathing suit.

The Denon X2500H does accept and upscale the 480P, cost $60 less, doesn't have the intelligent amp design (but I've done without the presence speakers since last Christmas and lived) but it runs VERY hot. I've got 2 other 1020's in the house. All 3 got replaced in a lightning strike (2013). I replaced 2 Denon 891's and a Yamaha 820. I got a great deal on the 1020's buying 3 at once.

I like the Yamaha intelligent amp design, I like the Yamaha smartphone amp FAR better than the Denon, I used to like the menu system better based on the 1020 but the guy at Yamaha says the menus in the 7850 are the new standard across the entire product lineup. There are a handful of other things I like better too that are "soft issues". I don't need another 1020 class AVR in the Family room. I only had it because it came in the "replacement deal" form the lightning strike.

I think it's time for a scotch and some pontification! Retirement is a beautiful thing, except for the part of having to be more cost conscious!
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Yea I meant that page. I'm a little dyslexic.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...1&d=1536722896

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post #1804 of 2067 Old 09-12-2018, 09:42 AM
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How is the experience of using this receiver with external power amps via the preamp outputs? Any hiccups? FWIW I'm not trying to do Atmos or anything. I want to use external amps for my full-range LR speakers in a 3.0 setup. Since this is the cheapest 4K receiver on the market with preamp outputs, I am thinking of snagging one of the refurbs before it's impossible to buy one.
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post #1805 of 2067 Old 09-12-2018, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by prozach1576 View Post
How is the experience of using this receiver with external power amps via the preamp outputs? Any hiccups? FWIW I'm not trying to do Atmos or anything. I want to use external amps for my full-range LR speakers in a 3.0 setup. Since this is the cheapest 4K receiver on the market with preamp outputs, I am thinking of snagging one of the refurbs before it's impossible to buy one.
Using external amps on an AVR's preouts is a very common "upgrade" and there are zillions of forum posts about it. Often when you crunch the numbers, however, you discover that:

A) The increase in their maximum SPL output is often negligible [a trivial db or so, perhaps 2dB in some cases, and rarely a somewhat meaningful 3dB or more unless they invested in +200w/ch outboard amps.] PSST: To learn what 1, 2, and 3dB changes sound like try moving your existing AVR's volume knob down and up by these amounts, as seen on the display's readout, to see what it means and if you personally deem the change significant in your use. To calculate the change in maximum output level or "SPL at the listening position" a perspective outboard amp will achieve, try using an online calculator such as this one which I find to be quick and easy (even though there are a few minor mistakes in the text descriptions outside this one's calculator section).

B) The customer often has increased their music's faint background noise [hiss] because they've increased the number of units in the signal path.

C) They've sometimes moved to an amp with an inferior signal-to-noise ratio as measured at 1 watt [not to be confused with the more common full power SNR] hence they notice more faint hiss during the music's quiet passages [or at least if they press pause on their playback device and hold their ear close to the tweeter to listen to their system's rendition of "silence"].

D) They may not have the prerequisite conditions allowing for overall system gain factor optimization to keep noise as low as possible in a chain of devices. [Say if the outboard amp lacks a variable input sensitivity control and they lack the technical know-how of how to set things, ideally done with a meter and test tones.]

E) They've added the dangers associated with conducting the signal from one device to another via a wire [which can potentially act as an antenna to pick up even more noise along the way although usually this is not much of an issue in actual practice].

F) They escalate the potential for their system to take on a problem called "ground loop noise" because the new amp may have a different ground potential based on where it is plugged in [especially true if a different room AC outlet is used].

They also are spending hundreds if not thousands of more dollars, they consume more electricity, take up more room in their equipment rack, and generate more heat in the room so they have to turn up their AC.

People who are of the mind that all amps sound different and AVR amps are inherently "poor" [which I don't prescribe to] should do well with external amps especially if they don't test the net results using level matched, double blind testing to preclude expectation bias. If you think your system should sound better it often will [in your mind] due to the "placebo effect". But this doesn't mean in a forum with "science" in its title we should encourage abandoning evidence based science and instead do things based on group think.

---

I'm not saying there are never any reasonable reasons to add external amps to an AVR, but much of the time when I see people do it the amps I often see they select offer very little "boost" over what they already have and they actually take on new potential problems like more system hiss and ground loop hum.

If you aren't finding your existing AVR is distorting on the loud musical peaks in the first place then you don't need more power.

[Since I consider this an important general topic I am starting a new thread with the above text.]
---

The preamp outs on these typical Yamaha's is not the greatest and is at a lower than ideal level so they will not work well on outboard amps without variable input sensitivity controls nor with amps with low amounts of gain, but the gripes I mentioned above apply to all brands not just these Yamahas. Read more about the lower than ideal preamp output levels of a similar Yamaha from their upscale Aventage series here:

"At 1Vrms, the output looks much cleaner. If you're planning on using external amplification with the RX-A860, look for a power amplifier with a relatively high voltage gain (29dB or greater) so that it can achieve full rated power below where the preamp outputs of the RX-A860 starts clipping. For example, a 200-watt amplifier with a voltage gain of 29dB will reach its rated power at around 1.4Vrms."

https://www.audioholics.com/av-recei...0/measurements

P.S. I was dismayed to discover my TSR-7810, clone to the RXV781, lacks Dolby Atmos top/enabled channels despite the listing saying "full 7.1 preamp outs!" . Turns out you are locked to the 7 "bed" channels. [I had hoped to run experiments on the Dolby Atmos output through measurement devices, not use an external amp.] This won't be of concern to you for the front outs of course but I thought other might want to know.

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post #1806 of 2067 Old 09-12-2018, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Using external amps on an AVR's preouts is a very common "upgrade" that there are zillions of forum posts about. Often when you crunch the numbers, however, you discover that:

A) The increase in their maximum SPL output is negligible [a trivial db or so, perhaps 2dB in some cases and rarely a meaningful 3dB or more unless they invest in +200w/ch outboard amps].

B) The customer often has increased their music's faint background noise because they've increased the number of units in the signal path.

C) They've sometimes moved to an amp with an inferior signal-to-noise ratio as measured at 1 watt [not to be confused with the more common full power SNR] hence they notice more faint hiss during the music's quiet passages.

D) They may not have the prerequisite conditions allowing for overall system gain factor optimization to keep noise as low as possible. [Say if the outboard amp lacks a variable input sensitivity control.]

E) They've added the dangers associated with conducting the signal from one device to another via a wire [which can potentially act as an antenna to pick up even more noise along the way although usually that is not much of an issue in actual practice].

F) They escalate the potential for their system to have a problem called "ground loop noise" because the new amp may have a different ground potential based on where it is plugged in [especially true if a different room AC outlet is used].

They also are spending hundreds if not thousands of more dollars, they consume more electricity, take up more room in their equipment rack, and generate more heat in the room so they have to turn up their AC.

People who are of the mind that all amps sound different and AVR amps are inherently poor [which I don't prescribe to] should do well with external amps especially if they don't test the net results using level matched, double blind testing to preclude expectation bias.
---

I'm not saying there are never any reasonable reasons to add external amps to an AVR but much of the time when I see people do it they achieve very little and actually take on new potential problems like more hiss and ground loop hum.
---

The preamp outs on these typical Yamaha's is not the greatest and is at a lower than ideal level so they will not work well on outboard amps without variable input sensitivity controls nor with amps with low amounts of gain, but the gripes I mentioned above apply to all brands not just these Yamahas. Read more about the lower than ideal preamp output levels of a similar Yamaha from their upscale Aventage series here:

"At 1Vrms, the output looks much cleaner. If you're planning on using external amplification with the RX-A860, look for a power amplifier with a relatively high voltage gain (29dB or greater) so that it can achieve full rated power below where the preamp outputs of the RX-A860 starts clipping. For example, a 200-watt amplifier with a voltage gain of 29dB will reach its rated power at around 1.4Vrms."

https://www.audioholics.com/av-recei...0/measurements

P.S. I was dismayed to discover my TSR-7810, clone to the RXV781, lacks Dolby Atmos top/enabled channels despite the listing saying "full 7.1 preamp outs!" . Turns out you are locked to the 7 "bed" channels. [I had hoped to run experiments on the Dolby Atmos output through measurement devices, not use an external amp.] This won't be of concern to you for the front outs of course but I thought other might want to know.
I don't necessarily disagree with all of your points, but for me preamp outputs are still a must-have feature.

My current receiver is a Pioneer SC-1222k with preamp outputs. Recently I have experimented with some pro amps - a Crown XLS1002 and a Behringer iNuke NU3000 - to power a pair of DIY Seas Idunn speakers and a pair of BIC RTR-EV15 speakers. The difference in sound quality at higher volumes has been dramatic. The pro amps play much louder without distorting such that I'm able to enjoy substantially better bass output without the highs being fatiguing. The higher noise floor isn't really noticeable in a living room with the Crown, though the Behringer does have an audible hiss that I probably wouldn't tolerate on a long-term basis. The Crown also has variable input sensitivity, and the Pioneer's preamp outputs have been adequate in that regard.

I don't have a calibrated SPL meter to match levels with, but in my non-blind back-to-back tests of "play the same songs with the volume cranked until my ears hurt" it's not a close call.

I also want the flexibility to add external DSP for an active DIY speaker and sub setup down the road.

It could be that the Pioneer simply has a bad amp? I will be interested to compare the Yamaha if I decide to pull the trigger.
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post #1807 of 2067 Old 09-12-2018, 01:21 PM
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I The pro amps play much louder without distorting such that I'm able to enjoy substantially better bass output without the highs being fatiguing.
That's perfectly valid. Good luck with your quest.
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post #1808 of 2067 Old 09-13-2018, 05:12 AM
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I picked up the TSR-7850 from Costco the other day after my Onkyo TX-NR616 died. Was surprised it had the crappy folded metal heatsinks instead of cast aluminum like a $500 receiver should. It works fine, but the GUI seems pretty dated. Still need to set up some extra speakers and play with Atmos/etc.
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post #1809 of 2067 Old 09-13-2018, 12:39 PM
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I see that Costco is now selling a Yamaha 7850, which I assume is an upgrade from the 7810 that I bought there last year. But I can't seem to find any info about it online. Any ideas on what improvements it brings to the 7810? Costco often gets audio/visual equipment with their own numbers. Which regular line Yamaha product would this match up with?
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post #1810 of 2067 Old 09-13-2018, 01:41 PM
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I posted a link to the manual about 8-10 post back.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...l#post56794918
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Originally Posted by Movielvr77 View Post
I see that Costco is now selling a Yamaha 7850, which I assume is an upgrade from the 7810 that I bought there last year. But I can't seem to find any info about it online. Any ideas on what improvements it brings to the 7810? Costco often gets audio/visual equipment with their own numbers. Which regular line Yamaha product would this match up with?
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post #1811 of 2067 Old 09-13-2018, 11:00 PM
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I see that Costco is now selling a Yamaha 7850, which I assume is an upgrade from the 7810 that I bought there last year. But I can't seem to find any info about it online. Any ideas on what improvements it brings to the 7810? Costco often gets audio/visual equipment with their own numbers. Which regular line Yamaha product would this match up with?
How much is it? From the manual, the back side looks like a A780

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post #1812 of 2067 Old 09-14-2018, 12:07 PM
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$489. If it is Costco's version of the 780 the specs look almost identical to the 7810. At least to my untrained eyes. Other than some things like future eARC ability. I've been quite pleased with my 7810 for the past year and half. But wouldn't mind at least another couple of HDMI inputs, with all of them being HDCP 2.2. Also would like to see DTS Virtual:X, which the Denon's have (along with the Yamaha soundbar). So I'm not sure this is the upgrade model from the 7810. Unless I want another one for a different room.
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$489. If it is Costco's version of the 780 the specs look almost identical to the 7810. At least to my untrained eyes. Other than some things like future eARC ability. I've been quite pleased with my 7810 for the past year and half. But wouldn't mind at least another couple of HDMI inputs, with all of them being HDCP 2.2. Also would like to see DTS Virtual:X, which the Denon's have (along with the Yamaha soundbar). So I'm not sure this is the upgrade model from the 7810. Unless I want another one for a different room.
I only noticed that the pre-outs are gone for the surround channels
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post #1814 of 2067 Old 09-15-2018, 09:28 AM
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I only noticed that the pre-outs are gone for the surround channels
Removal of the pre-outs is a major downgrade. That's part of what made the TSR-7810 a steal. Looks like you have to go for the $900 RX-A880 to get center/surround pre-outs now.
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post #1815 of 2067 Old 09-15-2018, 10:23 AM
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Removal of the pre-outs is a major downgrade. That's part of what made the TSR-7810 a steal. Looks like you have to go for the $900 RX-A880 to get center/surround pre-outs now.
I agree. Also the switch from 2 HD component INs and one OUT to just one SD ONLY [you are locked to 480 use, not 720/1080] component IN and no component OUTs could be a major blow for some users.
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post #1816 of 2067 Old 09-15-2018, 02:01 PM
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Removal of the pre-outs is a major downgrade. That's part of what made the TSR-7810 a steal. Looks like you have to go for the $900 RX-A880 to get center/surround pre-outs now.
The TSR-7850 should be very similar to the RX-A880. The picture of the rear panel on the Costco website is actually for the RX-V685 if you look closely. Yamaha hasn't updated its own website yet with this model.

If Yamaha downgrades this to the 685 equivalent that would be disappointing when the 7810 was the RX-V781/A860 equivalent with a full set of preouts.
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post #1817 of 2067 Old 09-15-2018, 04:36 PM
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Folks, posted this a couple times already but maybe it got lost in the parallel discussions.

Here is the manual with all the in/outs/...

https://usa.yamaha.com/files/downloa...om_U_En_A0.pdf
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post #1818 of 2067 Old 09-15-2018, 04:38 PM
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If I am reading this correctly. If I have a 5.1 setup; is it correct that I am getting about 20 to 26 watts per channel and I will need an external amp to get more?
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post #1819 of 2067 Old 09-15-2018, 05:10 PM
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If I am reading this correctly. If I have a 5.1 setup; is it correct that I am getting about 20 to 26 watts per channel and I will need an external amp to get more?
Page 191 of the 7850 manual, the spec page, doesn't state how much output each channel can provide when all channels are blasting at maximum level [a scenario which is exceeding rare in most movie scenes and multichannel music. That is, almost always some speakers are louder than others, statistically usually the fronts.]. It does state that the front L and R blasting simultaneously at maximum level can acheive:
95 watts, continuously [they actually stop this common FTC test at 5 minutes]
each
while both are being driven simultaneously {and the other channels are not used}
at any isolated frequency from 20-20kHz
into a standard 8 ohm speaker load {they use a resistor actually}
with negligible [inaudible] .06 % THD distortion

The more and more channels that are driven at maximum output, simultaneously, the lower the possible wattage of each channel but for stereo music at least, i.e. two channels driven, you are guaranteed 95 watt/ch under these stated conditions.

The ability to drive all channels simultaneously at maximum, un-distorted output is called ACD, all channels driven, and I don't consider it a very useful spec since it is such a rare occurrence in actual use.
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Hi all, first post, got a question! I’ve searched and read through this entire thread... haven’t been able to find anything.

I bought a refurb TSR-7810 off a flash deal at Amazon to replace an unreliable Sony AVR. All my other AVRs have been Yamaha and reliable, so I decided to make my way back.

System is set up as 5.1.2 with FHS. It’s plugged up to my Xbox One X through high speed HDMI cables with Atmos configured on the Xbox. Mode 1 selected in advance settings; YPAO auto completed, YPAO volume engaged.

I keep the DSP set to “Dolby surround” since the Xbox is set to Atmos. If someone accidentally hits “scene” or “surround” on the remote, then the AVR goes to “straight” and cannot be changed into any other DSP mode. If we try to change it back to “surround”, the AVR shows “not available” for all DSP options. “Display” will show “straight” and “not available” if you try to change it to anything else.

The only way to get it to return to “surround” is to turn the Xbox off. Anyone ever hear of this happening?
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post #1821 of 2067 Old 09-16-2018, 10:00 AM
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refurb TSR-7810
I keep the DSP set to “Dolby surround” since the Xbox is set to Atmos. If someone accidentally hits “scene” or “surround” on the remote, then the AVR goes to “straight” and cannot be changed into any other DSP mode. If we try to change it back to “surround”, the AVR shows “not available” for all DSP options. “Display” will show “straight” and “not available” if you try to change it to anything else.

The only way to get it to return to “surround” is to turn the Xbox off. Anyone ever hear of this happening?
Have you updated the TSR-7810's firmware to 2.58? I'm not sure if that's it but it is probably is a good idea to do so.

I notice mine seems to sort of get locked if the Atmos device isn't actually transmitting a live Atmos signal at times too. It seem like it only wants to invoke Atmos as opposed to the other numerous variants of Dolby Surround processing [now an all encompassing moniker for many Dolby Labs' technologies].

The Scene buttons are presets to quickly engage everything the way you like it. I'd suggest getting everything going with Atmos working and then locking that in as a Scene button by holding it in for 4 seconds. It will then read "Set Complete" to show that Scene button is now locked into the current configuration. . . . I dig this feature.
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Have you updated the TSR-7810's firmware to 2.58? I'm not sure if that's it but it is probably is a good idea to do so.

I notice mine seems to sort of get locked if the Atmos device isn't actually transmitting a live Atmos signal at times too. It seem like it only wants to invoke Atmos as opposed to the other numerous variants of Dolby Surround processing [now an all encompassing moniker for many Dolby Labs' technologies].

The Scene buttons are presets to quickly engage everything the way you like it. I'd suggest getting everything going with Atmos working and then locking that in as a Scene button by holding it in for 4 seconds. It will then read "Set Complete" to show that Scene button is now locked into the current configuration. . . . I dig this feature.
The Scene button preset fixed it — thank you so much!! That was super aggravating, and I think it’s the locking issue you described. I did a factory reset (since it’s refurb) and updated the firmware right out the box... but now with the Scene preset, it’ll go back to “surround” even if it’s stuck showing “not available”.

Thanks again!!!!
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post #1823 of 2067 Old 09-17-2018, 11:18 PM
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I saw the TSR-7850 in Costco today and it is just a rebadged RX-V685. Kinda disappointing actually. I see no reason to get this over the RX-A780 except for Costco's generous return policy. I've seen the RX-A780 sell for at least $50 cheaper than Costco's price. Oh well, looks like they're saving the full set of preouts for the Aventage RX-A8xx and up models now.

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post #1824 of 2067 Old 09-20-2018, 10:24 AM
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Atmos 5.1.2 on TSR 7810 and ATV 4 K

Hello All, I’m here to get help on my Atmos 5.1.2 setup.

TV: (1080P) Samsung UN55C6300 with latest firmware

AVR: TSR7810 with latest firmware, DSP set to “Dolby surround”. Front presence speakers are mounted in ceiling and Test Tone works.

Apple TV 4K with tvOS12, Audio out set to Dolby Atmos

I’m playing Atmos movie preview from iTunes on Apple TV 4K, how can I confirm that my setup is set for Atmos?.

When I press Info button on AVR I don’t see Atmos or I don’t see atoms anywhere on the AVR panel.

Is it anything to do with my TV being old?

Please help!
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post #1825 of 2067 Old 09-20-2018, 11:04 AM
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Atmos has to do with audio, not video so your TV has nothing to do with it, especially since you're using Apple TV as the source. Unless the Atmos audio is only available on 4K streaming.

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Last edited by afrogt; 09-20-2018 at 11:09 AM.
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post #1826 of 2067 Old 09-21-2018, 03:13 PM
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I received this today and finished setting it up. I have to say that I'm very impressed with the sound quality. It's a clear upgrade over my Pioneer SC-1222K, both out of the box and especially the audio processing capabilities. The Pioneer had a Class D amp that was rated for 120 watts per channel, but this Yamaha is getting a lot louder without distorting and sounds like it has plenty of headroom with my very efficient speakers. I guess the amp on my Pioneer just sucked. In any case, I'm sure glad I picked this up!
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post #1827 of 2067 Old 09-22-2018, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post
Atmos has to do with audio, not video so your TV has nothing to do with it, especially since you're using Apple TV as the source. Unless the Atmos audio is only available on 4K streaming.
How can I make sure that I have Atmos working? I dont see it on DSP, by clicking Info button also dont see Atmos Logo or Text.
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post #1828 of 2067 Old 09-22-2018, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by sharanmini View Post
How can I make sure that I have Atmos working? I dont see it on DSP, by clicking Info button also dont see Atmos Logo or Text.
As has been discussed earlier, there is some quirk where the signal has to be flowing in first before the Yammy will do it. Try playing the movie first on some non Dolby surround mode and then select Dolby Surround with Yamaha's "program" toggle on the front panel.
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post #1829 of 2067 Old 09-23-2018, 01:11 PM
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Even after Turning OFF Atmos on Apple TV 4K I see only Dolby Surround on DSP. I feel that I'm not getting Atmos on my TSR - 7810.
Can you please post picture showing Atmos is Turned on AVR? And also steps to Turn ON Atmos on AVR?

Thanks for your help!
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post #1830 of 2067 Old 09-23-2018, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharanmini View Post
Even after Turning OFF Atmos on Apple TV 4K I see only Dolby Surround on DSP. I feel that I'm not getting Atmos on my TSR - 7810.
Can you please post picture showing Atmos is Turned on AVR? And also steps to Turn ON Atmos on AVR?

Thanks for your help!
Not all movies are ATMOS, of course, and on some sources you have to enable the output. As I mentioned sometimes it is important to have the movie playing in ATMOS before you turn the Yamaha Program toggle to "Dolby Surround". The display on the TSR-7810 needs to be in "Audio Decoder" mode [press the "Info" button under the display to get there], there is a short delay and then appears the words "DOLBY ATMOS":
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