The "OFFICIAL" Yamaha TSR-7810/RX-v781 Owner's thread. - Page 68 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2011 of 2037 Old 05-10-2019, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
If I am understanding you correctly, which I'm not dead sure, here is my response:

A 4 ohm speaker load placed on an amp is a more difficult and a harder to drive situation than an 8 ohm load attached to the amp's speaker output posts.
Amps put under more strain get hotter than amps put under less strain.
Amps turned up high and playing for longs periods of time are under more strain and hence get hotter.
This is especially the case with difficult speakers with a low impedance, say 4 ohms or lower.

The possible cures to prevent over heating are:

-better ventilation
-don't play for more than a few minutes at a time
-don't use 4 ohm or lower speakers
- put an "idiot switch" on the product ["4 ohm mode"] so even though the indicator shows the unit turns up as loudly as it always does, in truth the maximum output level is throttled down, i.e. reduced
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChromeJob View Post
No. You're misunderstanding, see below...


As all of us budding Coast Guard avionics technicians learned back in the day, and repeated until we could say it in our sleep, "There is no such thing as something for nothing in electronics." In this case, you get more watts from an amp pushing more current through the lower impedance speakers, and your extra bonus dividend: heat. Lots of it. Amp burns hotter as a result of, as you describe, working harder. Arguably hotter than its safety rating.

Hence the 6 ohm "setting" (really a safety feature) to prevent excessive heat.


As I said, keep the volume lower (and use the AVR's "max volume" setting to enforce this), and you won't be venturing into the realm of too much current/heat due to the lower impedance speakers. If you want to really crank the system up loud, use the 6 ohm setting under Advanced Setup.

OR ... as Gene DellaSala recommends, use the AVR's bass mgmt, i.e. set the lower impedance speakers as LOW in Manual Setup, and let the subwoofer handle power-hungry lower freqs.


"Harder to drive" means an amplifier literally has to produce more current (wattage) to make the speakers as loud as comparable, "more efficient" 8 ohm speakers. ("More efficient" is in quotes because speakers' efficiency is not expressed just as the rated/tested impedance of their circuits.)

I think you're confusing what the AVR is doing "stepping down to 4 ohms." (Or I don't follow your question.) The 6 ohm setting in the AVR reduces some internal voltages, hopefully in a way that the casual listener can't detect, so that with more power sucking speakers attached, the AVR isn't dragged into a high current, HOT condition. It's allegedly there so that the AVR can pass UL-style testing when sustained tones at a peak volume into a lower impedance will not set the thing on fire. Which consumers tend to dislike; an AVR catching fire is "not a Good Thing."



Thanks to both of you, English is not my primary language so it ca be difficult grasping the specific verbs within the AV technical field and actually understanding it.


So I think I get it:
Setting the AVR into 6 Ohms doesn't increase the watts going into the speakers but lessens the amount of watts and making the AVR run less hot. So if I don't drive the AVR hard at 8 Ohms (stay above -36db) and ventilate aggressively, then the speakers will get the watts they need and sound fine?


I think a fundamental misunderstanding I made was that the speakers would sound "less good" at 8 Ohms compared 6 because they are called 4 Ohm speakers and I would loose fidelity from the speakers by not getting as close to 4 as possible on the AVR. But as I think I understand now, in reality 8 Ohm delivers the same amount of power to the speakers and everything is fine mixing 8 Ohm AVR output with 4 Ohm speakers and I won't be loosing any fidelity or quality.


@ChromeJob
You mention setting the impedence to low in the manual setup, but from what I've read that should only be done if I have a sub. My current setup is just Left, Right and Center, so everyone should be set to large, correct?
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post #2012 of 2037 Old 05-11-2019, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinterbird View Post
... @ChromeJob
You mention setting the impedence to low in the manual setup, but from what I've read that should only be done if I have a sub. My current setup is just Left, Right and Center, so everyone should be set to large, correct?
You are confusing things.

The speaker impedance setting is under ADVANCED SETUP.

If you have no subwoofer, then in manual setup all your speakers will default to "Large," you can't set them to "Small."

Quote:
Originally Posted by jacbri View Post
... I am running a 5.1.2 setup. Front presence. All channels work, however when switched to Nueral X the volume lowers significantly (at least 30%). Also everything sounds dull.
DSP and enhancer are on, TV reads dts-hd-MA. What am I doing wrong???

... Note: when switched to [Neural] X, it does read DTS HD ma Nueral X. At least a 15 DB loss.
5 channels are amplified by a Sherwood A965. Front presence are running off of the receiver.
Power amp configuration 5.1.2 + 1zone
Suggestions:
  1. Turn off Cinema DSP, that will add processing to the sound to simulate listening environments.
  2. Optionally turn off Enhancer if you want "clean," original sound. It's just boosting higher frequencies.
  3. Dolby PL II/Surround and Neural:X are upmixers, and not necessarily needed if you are already listening to 5.1 multichannel sound. I use "Straight" for multichannel, and the Dolby upmixer for 2-channel movies.

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Last edited by ChromeJob; 05-11-2019 at 10:59 AM.
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post #2013 of 2037 Old 05-11-2019, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinterbird View Post
So I think I get it:
Setting the AVR into 6 Ohms doesn't increase the watts going into the speakers but lessens the amount of watts and making the AVR run less hot.
Correct.
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post #2014 of 2037 Old 05-12-2019, 04:49 PM
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HDCP 2.2 failure

Hi,

I think a firmware update on either the TSR-7810 or Roku Ultra triggered a problem with HDCP 2.2 and HDR. I updated the firmware on all devices today, and I still can't get the Roku to pass HDR through the 7810. Prior to about 6 weeks ago, this setup worked with no problems and the Roku Ultra --> Epson 5040UB Port 1 works like a charm (4k HDR 30Hz).

My setup:
HDMI-1 In: Oppo 4k Blueray
HDMI-2 In: Roku Ultra
HDMI-3 In: Apple 4K TV
HDMI-1 Out: Epson 5040UB Port 1 (4k ARC)
HDMI-2 Out: Epson 5040UB Port 2 (1080p)

When I try to setup the Display in the Roku settings, it cannot get a valid HDCP 2.2 connection when I specify either 4k HDR 30 Hz or 4K HDR 60 Hz. I also get an error message when I choose 4k 30 Hz, but if I force it, the output is displayed at 4K 30 Hz. The error message is that something in the chain is not HDCP 2.2 compliant. Since the problem could be the cable from the Roku to the 7810, I bought a few new ones that clearly match the HDCP 2.2 and 2.3 specs and still no go.

Any ideas?
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post #2015 of 2037 Old 05-12-2019, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigcat2019 View Post
Hi,

I think a firmware update on either the TSR-7810 or Roku Ultra triggered a problem with HDCP 2.2 and HDR. I updated the firmware on all devices today, and I still can't get the Roku to pass HDR through the 7810. Prior to about 6 weeks ago, this setup worked with no problems and the Roku Ultra --> Epson 5040UB Port 1 works like a charm (4k HDR 30Hz).

My setup:
HDMI-1 In: Oppo 4k Blueray
HDMI-2 In: Roku Ultra
HDMI-3 In: Apple 4K TV
HDMI-1 Out: Epson 5040UB Port 1 (4k ARC)
HDMI-2 Out: Epson 5040UB Port 2 (1080p)

When I try to setup the Display in the Roku settings, it cannot get a valid HDCP 2.2 connection when I specify either 4k HDR 30 Hz or 4K HDR 60 Hz. I also get an error message when I choose 4k 30 Hz, but if I force it, the output is displayed at 4K 30 Hz. The error message is that something in the chain is not HDCP 2.2 compliant. Since the problem could be the cable from the Roku to the 7810, I bought a few new ones that clearly match the HDCP 2.2 and 2.3 specs and still no go.

Any ideas?
Hi bigcat2019, you didn't mention but double check receiver is still in Mode 1 in the Advanced Settings menu.
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post #2016 of 2037 Old 05-12-2019, 08:01 PM
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Epson 5040UB Mode 1 or Mode 2?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JChin View Post
Hi bigcat2019, you didn't mention but double check receiver is still in Mode 1 in the Advanced Settings menu.
Interesting. I hadn't thought about it, but I would have guessed that the HDMI 4k signal format (4k Mode) should actually be set to Mode 2 for the Epson, which is the default. I seem to recall having trouble switching to anything other than 4:2:0, but, perhaps, this setting must be set to Mode 1 to make HDR work correctly for the Roku device.

However, I did notice something else while looking into this. I was outputting signal to both HDMI 1 and HDMI 2 outputs. This caused HDCP 2.2 to be disabled in one of the latest firmware update while it did not cause HDCP to be disabled in previous firmware.

Another tidbit. Both the Roku and the TSR-7810 must be completely powered off to persuade HDCP 2.2 to come back to life between the two devices.

So, the strategy to get them working was:

1. Disable HDMI 2 output (only output through HDMI 1)
2. Shut power off to Roku and Yamaha TSR-7810.
3 . restart both devices
4. enjoy 4k HDR 30 hz (note that I'm not pressing it to 60 Hz because I don't think the Epson works at that rate).

This set of steps allowed me to enjoy the next to last Game of Thrones episode without wondering what was happening during the dark scenes.
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post #2017 of 2037 Old 05-13-2019, 05:14 AM
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The "OFFICIAL" Yamaha TSR-7810/RX-v781 Owner's thread.

Call me lazy, but not very excited about reading 2016 previous posts looking for this topic. My receiver is hidden behind a diy spandex projector screen. (Made after it came recommended by others here on this forum) my remote now doesn't really ach from.my seating position through the screen. I bought a ir extender cable and plugged into the ir in plug at the back. No joy! Do I need to activate the ir extender somewhere in settings? Or do I need to try a different option, what do you al use?


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post #2018 of 2037 Old 05-13-2019, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by OrangePhile View Post
Call me lazy,...
Okay, Lazy, welcome to the thread.

Don't have to read all the posts, just use the handy-dandy "Search this thread" feature at the top of the page. You'd likely find recommendations to use the AV Controller app by Yamaha for iOS and Android, it's superb, and gives you most of the common functions, as well as a virtual remote. Just control your AVR by wi-fi. I highly recommend it. You might ditch the remote entirely and get a cheap tablet/iPad Mini to be your new remote.

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post #2019 of 2037 Old 05-13-2019, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangePhile View Post
. I bought a ir extender cable and plugged into the ir in plug at the back. No joy! Do I need to activate the ir extender somewhere in settings?
An IR relay system is comprised of three parts:

A - an IR eyeball to aim your remote at
B - a brain to process the signal for transmission. These are usually AC powered.
C - an IR sprayer to convert the electrical signal from the brain's output back into IR light, or with some units (supporting the right kind of port/signal protocol) a hard wired cable to that same output port on the brain.

Sounds to me like you just bought A.
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post #2020 of 2037 Old 05-13-2019, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChromeJob View Post
Okay, Lazy, welcome to the thread.



Don't have to read all the posts, just use the handy-dandy "Search this thread" feature at the top of the page. You'd likely find recommendations to use the AV Controller app by Yamaha for iOS and Android, it's superb, and gives you most of the common functions, as well as a virtual remote. Just control your AVR by wi-fi. I highly recommend it. You might ditch the remote entirely and get a cheap tablet/iPad Mini to be your new remote.


I have the app, and do use it, but trying to just use one device. To use the app for volume and another remote to flip channels with my firestick is overkill. Especially if the phone is locked, waiting for it to unlocked, open the app, select the correct receiver(I have two yamahas.)

Like I said....lazy....


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post #2021 of 2037 Old 05-13-2019, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
An IR relay system is comprised of three parts:



A - an IR eyeball to aim your remote at

B - a brain to process the signal for transmission. These are usually AC powered.

C - an IR sprayer to convert the electrical signal from the brain's output back into IR light, or with some units (supporting the right kind of port/signal protocol) a hard wired cable to that same output port on the brain.



Sounds to me like you just bought A.


Yes, I just bought the IR eyeball with a stereo plug on the other end. I assumed it will really just extend the built in eyeball to a different place....

Sounds odd that I must buy all of that.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangePhile View Post
I have the app, and do use it, but trying to just use one device. To use the app for volume and another remote to flip channels with my firestick is overkill. Especially if the phone is locked, waiting for it to unlocked, open the app, select the correct receiver(I have two yamahas.)

Like I said....lazy....
I know. Hence my suggestion for an older, maybe refurb iPad or (cheaper!) Android tablet that is just dedicated for this purpose. Doesn't help with the Firestick, though, sorry.

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V: Panasonic DMP-BDT215, Yamaha DVD-S550. Apple TV 4gen. Chromecast 1gen, Samsung UN40ES6150.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChromeJob View Post
Okay, so the problem is with the Sony BD player. What the Apple TV is doing is mostly irrelevant, other than it works in both modes.

Since the Blu-ray player audio is the issue, check that it is configured to send plain Bitstream audio (not PCM). If it already is set for Bitstream, try PCM. (shrug) Turn off secondary audio or any other enhancements on teh BD player (some players in the past were not able to send HD audio if secondary audio stream was enabled). Also ensure the BD player is configured for one of the compatible color modes as per "Selecting the HDMI 4K Signal Format (4K MODE)" in the manual. How old is the Sony BD player?
Sorry I’ve been off for a while. The Blu-Ray player is the Sony BDP-S790.

The Apple TV isn’t necessarily the issue, as it does work in both modes, however I don’t get the best picture in Mode 2.

I’ve tried all those options for the Blu-Ray player, every single one of them, and I simply don’t get sound when the TSR is in mode 1. Incidentally, I picked up a TSR-7850 and it does the exact same thing. Any advice?
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Yamaha MusicCast network setup issues. Help

So I moved into a new place and I'm setting up my Yamaha TSR 7810 to use music cast. The process has been awful and I still cannot connect.

I followed by turning my Yamaha to connect mode. I then let the music cast app search for the device/network. It has me turn the network to the MusicCast SSID and then finds my 2.4ghz Wireless network band.

I plug in my wifi pw and it goes through the connection steps when it gets to 2/2 it hangs and I get the below error code.

Can anyone help? Does it matter that I connected my AVR wirelessly using the WPS key on my router?

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I'm picking you're a long way away from your router?
The WiFi signal indicator (and they're always over blown to make the phone / tablet look better than they are) shows that your mobile device is waaaay away from the router.
Try moving your router closer.


I'd also look at your routers firewall settings and don't connect over WPS... but mainly it looks like your router is too far away from your AVR.
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post #2026 of 2037 Old 05-18-2019, 05:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dunnersfella View Post
I'm picking you're a long way away from your router?
The WiFi signal indicator (and they're always over blown to make the phone / tablet look better than they are) shows that your mobile device is waaaay away from the router.
Try moving your router closer.


I'd also look at your routers firewall settings and don't connect over WPS... but mainly it looks like your router is too far away from your AVR.
I'm not that far from my router about 20-30ft. I've tried to connect to the router using the password but it says can't connect. Wps is the only way.

Also when I scan for the router with my Yamaha it show up and says 1% next to the band. Any thoughts? Shouldn't be the router because my TV right above it streams 4K UHD fine.

I'll be setting up ORBIs today and will see if that helps.

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Is there any way to multigroup this AVR with other Alexa enabled devices?

I tried hooking Alexa up via Bluetooth but it won't connect.

When I have a party I want to be able to have all my Alexa enabled devices play at the same time.



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post #2028 of 2037 Old 05-18-2019, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kev an View Post
Sorry I’ve been off for a while. The Blu-Ray player is the Sony BDP-S790.

The Apple TV isn’t necessarily the issue, as it does work in both modes, however I don’t get the best picture in Mode 2.

I’ve tried all those options for the Blu-Ray player, every single one of them, and I simply don’t get sound when the TSR is in mode 1. Incidentally, I picked up a TSR-7850 and it does the exact same thing. Any advice?
Five months later. I don't remember your specific symptoms, but it sounds like replacing the disc player will solve the problem. :-\

Quote:
Originally Posted by ffactoryxx View Post
So I moved into a new place and I'm setting up my Yamaha TSR 7810 to use music cast. The process has been awful and I still cannot connect.

I followed by turning my Yamaha to connect mode. I then let the music cast app search for the device/network. It has me turn the network to the MusicCast SSID and then finds my 2.4ghz Wireless network band.

I plug in my wifi pw and it goes through the connection steps when it gets to 2/2 it hangs and I get the below error code.

Can anyone help? Does it matter that I connected my AVR wirelessly using the WPS key on my router?
Ouch, those huge images hurt my eyes. Try to resize them in future, 'kay?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunnersfella View Post
I'm picking you're a long way away from your router?
The WiFi signal indicator (and they're always over blown to make the phone / tablet look better than they are) shows that your mobile device is waaaay away from the router.
Try moving your router closer.


I'd also look at your routers firewall settings and don't connect over WPS... but mainly it looks like your router is too far away from your AVR.
I concur. Use 2.4Ghz not 5Ghz, it has a little greater range.

From your description, it sounds like you can't use a password to connect to your router. That's a problem that won't resolve itself. Set the password, using WPA(-2) security. If you can't, reset the router, reconfigure and DON'T LOSE THE PASSWORD.

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Is anybody else having Bluetooth audio drops connected about 12 feet from TRS 7810?


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post #2030 of 2037 Old 06-17-2019, 06:24 PM
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I decided to jump to Yamaha with a refurbished 7810 coming from an Onkyo 838. It is hooked up to a Monoprice Monolith 7. Is it fair to say that the sound difference is negligible? I thought it would sound different.
Anyways, main question is when I play a Blu-ray from a Sony x800, I don't see the DTS-HDMA or Dolby Truehd on the display of the Yamaha.
Am I doing something wrong?
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post #2031 of 2037 Old 06-18-2019, 08:44 AM
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Some people claim that different brand AVRs sound different, but technically any competently made AVR should reproduce sound without coloration or differences (in "straight," unmodified settings).

Ensure you're player is sending Bitstream, not PCM. That way the AVR will recognize the code and decode, while displaying what it detects.

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post #2032 of 2037 Old 06-18-2019, 02:58 PM
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The Sony x800 doesn't have a bitstream option, you just leave the downmix to off. I have done this with my Onkyo and it shows the audio format playing in the display but the Yamaha doesn't.
I did find out if you go to the information tab on the Yamaha pop up screen then it does show either dts-hdma or Dolby-thd as the lossless format, just not in the front display window.
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post #2033 of 2037 Old 06-23-2019, 07:51 PM
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Yep, yep, it's great when you can find that in the manual.

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A: Yamaha RX-V775; Chromecast Audio; iPod Classic, Touch. Bose 401 mains, 301 Series III surrounds, Yamaha NS-C444 center, Hsu VTF-2 Mk4.
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post #2034 of 2037 Old 06-26-2019, 02:57 PM
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FYI only ...I asked Yamaha to confirm frequency range of the Tone Control settings under the quick option menu.

Tone Control Characteristics
Bass Boost/Cut......................................... ±6 dB/0.5 dB Step at 50 Hz
Bass Turnover .................................................. .........................350 Hz
Treble Boost/Cut.................................... ±6 dB/0.5 dB Step at 20 kHz
Treble Turnover .................................................. ..................... 3.5 kHz

I also asked if Dialogue Level changes EQ, channel volume, or both:
"Dialog Level is an EQ adjustment. It boosts the frequencies that are most commonly associated with dialog. This allows you to boost dialog in stereo audio signals, where the voices are carried on the same audio channels as the music and sound effects. Simply raising the center channel level is only effective in surround sound signals, where dialog is played on the center speaker."

Just in case anyone else was wondering the same thing.
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post #2035 of 2037 Old 07-05-2019, 03:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I use outboard amps.

I was disappointed to learn that despite being billed as "full set of preouts" there is no way to get the Dolby Atmos channels on this unit. Anyway that doesn't really apply to you but I thought to mention it.

Many people consider adding outboard amps without fully understanding the pros and cons. I made a thread about it you may consider examining.

One of the main issues I have is that people often are sold on using an outboard amp for added power output without fully realizing how measly it might be. For example, say you have an AVR with a rated output power (20Hz-20kHz, 2ch driven) of 95 W per channels (8 ohms, 0.06% THD) and are considering an alternate amp with 140W/ch under the same conditions. How much higher output can it achieve? The answer is a rather insignificant 1.7 dB. [Check my math here] You can easily experience what a change of 1.7dB means by rotating your current volume knob down and then back up by 1.7 dB [Well, you are locked to .5 dB steps on this and most other units so either do a 1.5 or 2 dB change]. Hear that amount of change? Not much, is it?

Generally speaking, here are what differences are meaningful in actual use:


.5 dB = hard to even notice with some music but easy with the right kind (or test signals designed to make it easy to hear)
1 dB = detectable but unlikely to make a consumer looking for more power happy
2 dB = more easily detectable but still unlikely to make a consumer looking for more output power happy
3 dB = easy to hear but still not all that much, IMO. This value, 3dB, is important to memorize, however, because it's the gain reflected by doubling an amp's power, i.e switching from say 95w/ch to 180 w/ch.
10 dB = an appreciable increase in SPL, often described by listeners as "doubly loud", it reflects a change in amp power of 10X, that is, switching from a 95w/ch amp to a 950 w/ch amp.

Decreasing the seated distance to the speakers or switching to more sensitive speakers are two other good ways to improve output.
I have an old recapped Onkyo M508 amp on my soon to be retired 7810(Moved to backup status) and the main reason I added the amp wasn't for the power output, it was to take the strain of running 7 fairly power hungry speakers that if it didn't kill it, would have shortened it's life. Even with an InfinityAC T8 on it it was super hot. Also, even in my apartment where I can't even take the volume up to where I want it, it wasn't sounding good and a scope showed it was distorting at the volume I can use it at without the neighbors above me (Under me is the common room, so that's no concern, no one is ever there after 4PM)crying. Besides, those giant green meters are so pretty.
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post #2036 of 2037 Old 07-05-2019, 03:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jviz4u View Post
Thank you for your reply. My point was not to increase volume- loudness , as to improving the quality of sound. I currently have a 50w mixed tubes amplifier from Monoprice that sounds "better" to my ears specially in lower levels of volume.
I question is if any 7810 users connected external Amplifier and had feel improvement in quality of sound, or I just chasing a rainbow?

BtW: i browsed your referenced discussion about such topic but did not find information that looking ;-(

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The old recapped Onkyo M508 I have running my front L+R speakers does sound better than the 7810's internal amps and it takes enough strain off the PS in the 7810 to keep it from cooking itself and running out of headroom. Before I added the amp, it was straining to run 4 Polk LSiM 703's and a 706 center speaker at -3db (on my level meter) from what I wanted it to play at. At where I wanted it, it was right on the edge of clipping and just sounded bad, and was trying it best to cook itself. Even with a cooling fan unit, it was too hot to touch on a couple of places. The Onkyo cured all it's problems. My previous AVR, a Yamaha RX-V659 was able to play the same setup without straining, but it was pretty much maxed out and itself ran too hot.
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post #2037 of 2037 Old 07-09-2019, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I use outboard amps.

You can easily experience what a change of 1.7dB means by rotating your current volume knob down and then back up by 1.7 dB [Well, you are locked to .5 dB steps on this and most other units so either do a 1.5 or 2 dB change]. Hear that amount of change? Not much, is it?

Generally speaking, here are what differences are meaningful in actual use...:
One point of clarification, the change of 1.7 dB you are referring to is db-SPL (sound pressure level). This is not the same as changing the dial on the front of your receiver by 1.7 dB, which is actually dBFS-digital. The actual change in SPL output from the speakers is dependent on the system (sensitivity of the speakers and gain adjustment). The unit "dB" is really not a scalar unit at all, it's really a ratio between two amplitudes as compared to a reference value.
To your original point, however, it is correct that to double the amplitude (6dB) requires 4x the power output.
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