Marantz AV7703 vs. AV7702 vs. AV7005 â?? 2ch stereo critical listening - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 63 Old 12-10-2016, 11:30 AM
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Nice work guys but I do wonder if the outboard boxes were up to snuff (sound degradation) did you guys try each direct to the amps with less (unfamiliar boxes) in their signal path? while subjective of course but I require both for a conclusive result.
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post #32 of 63 Old 12-10-2016, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by zorax2 View Post
I think @jdsmoothie and/or @SteveH mentioned elsewhere that the new Audyssey app should be available in late December or sometime in January.

I'm assuming the app is only good for the 7703, I have a 7702 coming to me and I seen the Marantz apps and one says 2016, anyone know if that's the app to use for both 7702's and the 7703 or only the 7703 ?

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post #33 of 63 Old 12-10-2016, 11:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post
Nice work guys but I do wonder if the outboard boxes were up to snuff (sound degradation) did you guys try each direct to the amps with less (unfamiliar boxes) in their signal path? while subjective of course but I require both for a conclusive result.
The day before the blind testing I listened with and without the XLR switchers inline. Zero difference.

I also took close mic measurements (1ft) and the FR and distortion was identical with or without the boxes.

Properly shielded XLR cables can run hundreds of feet without any unwanted noise, so I wasn't surprised that a few extra inches of cable added by the switchers had no adverse affect.
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post #34 of 63 Old 12-10-2016, 11:38 AM
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I'm assuming the app is only good for the 7703, I have a 7702 coming to me and I seen the Marantz apps and one says 2016, anyone know if that's the app to use for both 7702's and the 7703 or only the 7703 ?
The new Audyssey app is only compatible with the new 2016/2017 models like the 7703, Denon 4300, 6300, etc. It will not work with the Marantz 7702 or 8802.

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post #35 of 63 Old 12-10-2016, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post
Nice work guys but I do wonder if the outboard boxes were up to snuff (sound degradation) did you guys try each direct to the amps with less (unfamiliar boxes) in their signal path? while subjective of course but I require both for a conclusive result.
I also tested the Marantz 7703 and the Marantz 8802 versus my Denon 4200 in my theater. I have different amps than Luke.

I used my ATI 2005 amp. This amp has switches for each channel to immediately switch between the balanced and unbalanced connections. It's immediate and seamless to switch between the two sources. I ensured all sources were level matched and distance matched which was confirmed by the Audyssey test results for distance and trims, REW and by simply listening to the seamless change between the compared units with no volume difference or switching noises.

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post #36 of 63 Old 12-10-2016, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zorax2 View Post
The new Audyssey app is only compatible with the new 2016/2017 models like the 7703, Denon 4300, 6300, etc. It will not work with the Marantz 7702 or 8802.
I figured so and thanks for the info, for me no big deal as the app will be mainly for controlling Zone 2 audio and volume

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post #37 of 63 Old 12-10-2016, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by zorax2 View Post
I also tested the Marantz 7703 and the Marantz 8802 versus my Denon 4200 in my theater. I have different amps than Luke.

I used my ATI 2005 amp. This amp has switches for each channel to immediately switch between the balanced and unbalanced connections. It's immediate and seamless to switch between the two sources. I ensured all sources were level matched and distance matched which was confirmed by the Audyssey test results for distance and trims, REW and by simply listening to the seamless change between the compared units with no volume difference or switching noises.
So understanding you heard a difference in a previous test with Steve and then the recent one followed by the one with your son (which he said he heard a difference) I 'd recommend living with the 8802 as Steve mentioned for awhile and then go back to the Denon as critical listening in my book takes a bit more time. I wish I could have attended as the results sound interesting and would love the chance to challenge myself in hearing said difference or not

But my 8802 isn't going anywhere
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post #38 of 63 Old 12-13-2016, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
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8802 vs. 7005

After finding no distinction between the 7703/7702/7005, @zorax2 brought over an 8802

The same settings and music tracks were used for this test.

HOWEVER...

The 8802 was 0.5db lower in volume with additional HF roll-off that appears to start above 5khz...





We bumped the 8802 to -19.5db instead of -20db:





We tripled checked all settings and nothing was off. We even did a factory default on the 8802 and that actually made the HF roll-off slightly worse! The captures above are after that factory reset.

This was especially strange since just a week ago the 7703/7702/7005 all measured identically. Anyway, we kept the main volume on the 8802 at -19.5db and proceeded with the blind test. A difference of only .5db at 10khz wasn't terrible, and I doubt our music for the testing even had content that high anyway.

The result was much of the same. Indistinguishable to the point that I thought Rich wasn't even switching when I called for it. Rich couldn't tell any difference either.
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post #39 of 63 Old 12-13-2016, 11:05 AM
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Guessing that settles it for you guys and you get to save some coin by going with one of the lower models with the best Audyssey available

But I'll still be keeping my 8802 as its far exceeding my critical listening test
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post #40 of 63 Old 12-13-2016, 11:11 AM
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you should measure the noise floor on all of them

I may pick up a newer marantz if the audyssey app is good.
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post #41 of 63 Old 12-13-2016, 11:23 AM - Thread Starter
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you should measure the noise floor on all of them

I may pick up a newer marantz if the audyssey app is good.
The 7005 has always been the least noisy device in my entire signal chain.

Last night I put my ear up the BMS CD and had Rich switch the XLR boxes and there was no audible difference. Hardly scientific, but there ya go
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post #42 of 63 Old 12-13-2016, 11:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Guessing that settles it for you guys and you get to save some coin by going with one of the lower models with the best Audyssey available

But I'll still be keeping my 8802 as its far exceeding my critical listening test
Since I don't use any auto room correction/EQ, 4k, or ATMOS, I don't have any reason to upgrade from the 7005.

All this proves to me is that from a pure sound quality perspective where are things are equal, no one in a blind test would be able to tell these 4 processors apart.

Of course if you use Audyssey, all three of these units would kick the snot out of my old 7005 with Audyssey XT. XT32 is a huge improvement.
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post #43 of 63 Old 12-13-2016, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post
Since I don't use any auto room correction/EQ, 4k, or ATMOS, I don't have any reason to upgrade from the 7005.

All this proves to me is that from a pure sound quality perspective where are things are equal, no one in a blind test would be able to tell these 4 processors apart.

Of course if you use Audyssey, all three of these units would kick the snot out of my old 7005 with Audyssey XT. XT32 is a huge improvement.
Heard! Any chance you'll get to hang on to the 8802 in your setup for a few days and just do some casual listing to subjectively gauge its sound and musical abilities? A point of curiosity how long did the over all test take?
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Heard! Any chance you'll get to hang on to the 8802 in your setup for a few days and just do some casual listing to subjectively gauge its sound and musical abilities? A point of curiosity how long did the over all test take?
We listened to various tracks for about an hour.

I even took 10 second clips from a few tracks and had it just repeat over and over, and at the beginning of each repeat I'd have Rich switch to the other processor. We also increased the volume by 5db and played some more electronic/synthetic tracks.

Audio memory with even a 1 second gap in between a switch is useless, so I'm not sure how swapping out the 7005 with the 8802 for a week will change anything if they already sound identical with instant switching.
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We listened to various tracks for about an hour.

I even took 10 second clips from a few tracks and had it just repeat over and over, and at the beginning of each repeat I'd have Rich switch to the other processor. We also increased the volume by 5db and played some more electronic/synthetic tracks.

Audio memory with even a 1 second gap in between a switch is useless, so I'm not sure how swapping out the 7005 with the 8802 for a week will change anything if they already sound identical with instant switching.
Thanks
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post #46 of 63 Old 12-13-2016, 12:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Also, later today I'll be starting another thread detailing a comparison me and Rich made between (4) Audyssey microphones.
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post #47 of 63 Old 12-13-2016, 03:03 PM
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post #48 of 63 Old 12-15-2016, 08:56 AM
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Since I don't use any auto room correction/EQ, 4k, or ATMOS, I don't have any reason to upgrade from the 7005.

All this proves to me is that from a pure sound quality perspective where are things are equal, no one in a blind test would be able to tell these 4 processors apart.

Of course if you use Audyssey, all three of these units would kick the snot out of my old 7005 with Audyssey XT. XT32 is a huge improvement.
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Also, later today I'll be starting another thread detailing a comparison me and Rich made between (4) Audyssey microphones.
Awesome testing - thanks for the time and effort to do it. Very cool.

Question - have you thought about running Audyssey for each in 2 channel mode, and then comparing in the same manner? Theoretically you should get the same result for the units with the same level of Audyssey, but it'd be interesting to compare. If you don't mind
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Awesome testing - thanks for the time and effort to do it. Very cool.

Question - have you thought about running Audyssey for each in 2 channel mode, and then comparing in the same manner? Theoretically you should get the same result for the units with the same level of Audyssey, but it'd be interesting to compare. If you don't mind
If we did that, we'd definitely want to use the same Audyssey mic:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...crophones.html

The sensitivity and frequency response on those things is all over the place!
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post #50 of 63 Old 12-15-2016, 09:47 AM
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If we did that, we'd definitely want to use the same Audyssey mic:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...crophones.html

The sensitivity and frequency response on those things is all over the place!
Wow that thread is illuminating!

Can 3rd party pro mics be used?

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post #51 of 63 Old 12-15-2016, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow that thread is illuminating!

Can 3rd party pro mics be used?
That's probably where the Audyssey Pro kit comes in.
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post #52 of 63 Old 08-10-2017, 11:11 AM
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I ran across this thread trying to find a rationale for (either) abandoning or keeping my 7005. It's shown a a "failure" that's not the end of the World (the two channel signal loops are down-CD-R, etc.) and there's no good reason or obvious cause. But I don't use them anyway. My setup is not like anyone else's, so I wouldn't worry about it. It's just odd. I use the 7005 as the "control" for everything multichannel and a Pioneer C-91 elite for everything two channel. (It has a boatload of loops and source inputs and is essentially dual mono in design.)

I tore it all down and reassembled it, and it's definitely inside the 7005. For a time I thought it was the Monitor (Sony XBR-65HX950), but I don't believe that's the case. The only thing that can begin to explain it would be a lightning strike, but I can't find any evidence of that anywhere either. It's good to know that outside of 4K issues that there isn't a ton of difference in terms of audio.

I will eventually upgrade to 4K, but I'm a use it up, wear it out kind of guy. I'm a little annoyed with the "upgrade" hamster wheel as it now appears to be situated. Prices are hyper-inflating and exclusive of 4K video, I'm not seeing much in the way of justification for additional outlay. I'm also searching for a thread that discusses how 4K monitors present 1080p content vs. 1080p monitor performance on the same feed.

I see various threads out in the wild about what a waste of time 4K is for anything under 75". I don't trust anybody's perceptions as much as I do my own, but finding "cutting edge" monitors that are running anything besides 4K demo material is harder (around here) to find than one might imagine. Thanks for this thread, and congratulations! It's a vote for "hang on to what you've got" for a while yet....
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post #53 of 63 Old 08-10-2017, 11:27 AM
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I see various threads out in the wild about what a waste of time 4K is for anything under 75".
Those authors tend to neglect the fact that the wider color gamut and HDR which usually are included with UHD source material provide a very visible improvement. In principle they could be provided for 1080p, but that's obviously not going to happen. Similarly, 3D audio encodings (Atmos, DTS:X and Auro3D) usually are provided on UHD discs but less often on the corresponding BD releases.

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Those authors tend to neglect the fact that the wider color gamut and HDR which usually are included with UHD source material provide a very visible improvement. In principle they could be provided for 1080p, but that's obviously not going to happen. Similarly, 3D audio encodings (Atmos, DTS:X and Auro3D) usually are provided on UHD discs but less often on the corresponding BD releases.
Fair enough and thanks for your reply! I've been having a bit of a time with my (aging) AV7005. I can't get rid of the Airplay nagware, and for a brief time all the Analog two channel outputs were muted. I think I've gotten it straightened out now, though. Not sure how it got that way, but I reset the microprocessor and double checked the output settings.
It did make me start wondering about what to replace it with when that time comes.
I'm still suffering from pretty severe sticker shock. I've owned Rotel (I liked it fine, but it was a bit noisy), Emotiva (the UMC-1, 'nuff said about THAT) and then this Marantz. There's not a lot to complain about, but until I get a 4K display I just don't see much reason to change yet.

I am curious about how to tell where these various series are built. I see China on some, Malaysia on others and some don't say anything.
I have an 8005 SACD player and that level is where I'd LIKE to be with regard to the next processor, but the asks are just too high for anything new that starts with an "8".
I don't feel like I can ever recoup the outlay, even if I were to sell it for an ostensible upgrade in an unknowable future.

Maybe I'm just moving too soon. The displays are approaching reasonable. The physical media players (my present one in this system is an Oppo 105-no Darbee) seem less inflated, but the processors are just out to Pluto.

Anybody with a recommendation, feel free to volunteer a personal experience opinion. Thanks in Advance!

SM
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post #55 of 63 Old 08-13-2017, 02:29 AM
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Fair enough and thanks for your reply! I've been having a bit of a time with my (aging) AV7005. I can't get rid of the Airplay nagware, and for a brief time all the Analog two channel outputs were muted. I think I've gotten it straightened out now, though. Not sure how it got that way, but I reset the microprocessor and double checked the output settings.
It did make me start wondering about what to replace it with when that time comes.
I'm still suffering from pretty severe sticker shock. I've owned Rotel (I liked it fine, but it was a bit noisy), Emotiva (the UMC-1, 'nuff said about THAT) and then this Marantz. There's not a lot to complain about, but until I get a 4K display I just don't see much reason to change yet.

I am curious about how to tell where these various series are built. I see China on some, Malaysia on others and some don't say anything.
They're made wherever the least expensive assembly plant happens to be located. That used to be China, but other countries in southern Asia seem to have become technically proficient and more cost effective in recent years. To the extent that higher end devices (like Marantz's 8xxx and 9xxx series) can fetch higher prices, higher cost components and manufacturing venues (e.g. Japan) can be justified for them.
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I have an 8005 SACD player and that level is where I'd LIKE to be with regard to the next processor, but the asks are just too high for anything new that starts with an "8".
I don't feel like I can ever recoup the outlay, even if I were to sell it for an ostensible upgrade in an unknowable future.

Maybe I'm just moving too soon. The displays are approaching reasonable.
That's because pricing in that marketplace is cut-throat and many of the devices are "loss-leaders", sold at a loss to help promote a company's name. Over the years, many of the better known display manufacturers have lost money for too long, going out of business and selling their trademarks to companies which have lower overhead.
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The physical media players (my present one in this system is an Oppo 105-no Darbee) seem less inflated, but the processors are just out to Pluto.
You have to balance what best meets your entertainment goals with how much you're willing to spend. Some disc players are available for 1/10 of what Oppo charges. Similarly, he most expensive pre/pros (e.g. Trinnov's Altitude32) can cost as much as 10x what Marantz wants for their top of the line. For many people, the features provided by the higher priced models are irrelevant.

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post #56 of 63 Old 09-26-2017, 10:58 PM
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Red face

Thanks for your response. But again, I'll reply with a "Well, yes and no".

I've always been about living in the knee of the "J curve" with respect to quality vs. outlay. But I think that's been obliterated (now) with near self parodying hyper-inflation.
I've never owned Wally World junk and I never will. Vintage is where I spend the vast majority of my time these days, and as long as the discussion stays exclusive of video eccentric topics that this forum parses most religiously, it's where I'm likely to spend the rest of my life.

Video can't merit that scrutiny. It's just no contest. 4K is getting cheaper every day. (I'll probably hold out for an OLED, but they'll have to get the bugs shaken out before I'll bite.) But (heresy for folks whose living depends on selling dissatisfaction with what you have as a business model, I realize) I've yet to believe that 11.2 can even begin to compete with 5.1 based primarily on the principle of diminishing returns. It (like rust) never sleeps, and I'm long enough in the tooth now to see it reach a reductio ad absurdum scenario. For folks who live to upgrade, that's fine. I'm cool with that choice being available. I'm just not one of them. (Wetware interfaces will be when that conversation is rendered potentially irrelevant. But I'll have to get plugged into it before I'm sold on it as well. Sony is reputed to have already begun patenting them.....)

The improvements that most appeal to me now are primarily those related to lowering (preferably being indistinguishable from an unprocessed two channel Stereo setup) the post processing noise floor to effectively zero.
My AV7005 is much quieter than my first processor (Yamaha DSP-1, itself a sound reinforcement device repackaged and remarketed, it was never meant to be "quiet") and my second (Rotel 1068) which was better, my third (Emotiva UMC-1, I'd still have it if it wasn't so firmware crippled) but what I'm trying to discover is how much quieter are these later (not new, I'm just not going there......same philosophy I have with automobiles) Marantz AV's. I'm looking for an AV8803, or 8801 or thereabouts. If it's quieter (and not by a negligible margin) then they have my attention. If not, I'll hang on to what I've got. My 7005 had some bizarre breakdown, but resetting it brought it back. I had to recalibrate all the presets, but it wasn't that big of "a deal". The reasons for my posting have now been made (mostly) academic. One day I will buy something "newer". If the XMC-1 becomes reasonable on the used market, it's a likely alternative. But I usually prefer Multi-Channel Stereo on TV channels and DTS and Dolby True HD (or its counterpart trade name) if the media will let me choose.

I've posted before that my setup is VERY idiosyncratic and is meant to maintain the purity of the two channel (a vintage dual mono preamp handling the main two channels in analog) while letting the processor handle the other (noisier, DSP "just is what it is") everything else except the two (Stereo) main SW channels and the two main (Stereo) channels. All the front speakers are Ribbons (including the center) and the the speakers are vintage Polk. (SDA 2B's in the back, a small Monitor in front) w/(again) 2 pairs of Stereo Subs (front and rear). There is very low (frequency, not necessarily volume) information (especially in early Stereo "purist" two and three channel Mercs, Londons and RCA's) that is "Stereo specific" and I'm just not willing to sum THAT to mono. (Dual or Single Channel.) So this compromise is as close as I can get to getting everything I want, like I want it. Manufacturers started (seemingly) shoving me around at about the turn of the Century, and I've been less and less impressed over time. I know for younger enthusiasts, that's not going to be something that's easily "related to", I know there are ST's that are as meticulously engineered as those Classic analog recordings were. I know that there is no "Perfect World", but I feel increasingly like a demographic that's been purposefully ignored. I could move the multichannel system to a different room, but the other contenders are smaller and I still have the "multi-channel" Stereo preference to most surround manipulation paradigms (with respect to Music). But thanks again, for sharing your thoughts. I know I'm trying to get a best of all possible worlds scenario out of a single room/setup.
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post #57 of 63 Old 09-28-2017, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
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I see this thread is another casualty of photobucket...

I'll fix all the pictures in the first post later today.
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post #58 of 63 Old 12-04-2018, 03:01 PM
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Did you guys ever tested the 4200 vs the 4200 (or Marantz AVP) + ATI amps at loud listening level?

Dedicated Sonus Faber HT 7.2.4 | FRONTS: Sonus Faber Venere 2.0 CENTER: Sonus Faber Venere Centre FRONT WIDES: Sonus Faber Venere 1.5 SURROUNDS: Sonus Faber Venere 1.5 TF/TR - ATMOS-DTS:X: Sonus Faber Venere Wall (4) | RECEIVER: Marantz SR7010 AMPLIFICATION: Monolith 7x200 | SUBWOOFERS: Dual 18" Dayton RSS460 Custom Build | Behringer iNuke 6000DSP | Velodyne SMS-1 DISPLAY: JVC D-ILA RS-46 w/ 128" 16:9 1.4 TREATMENT: Custom Bass Traps and Acoustic Panels (11)
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post #59 of 63 Old 12-04-2018, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsgrise View Post
Did you guys ever tested the 4200 vs the 4200 (or Marantz AVP) + ATI amps at loud listening level?

We did this at "comfortable" listening levels. Luke's speakers are incredible and would sound great at any volume but we didn't chase high dBs that I can recall. I don't think we would have heard differences at any level (sound quality or noise floor). Luke might recall the level but I'm thinking it was -10 dB from reference. There is ZERO distortion with his speakers so it could have been much louder and would have still been comfortable.

I think we used -10 dB at my theater in a well treated room with Kef Reference speakers.

Now if you want to listen to high dBs, stop by the next Minneapolis area theater crawl and experience a mini-earthquake with over 150 dB of hard hitting bass at Luke's. It's an experience you'll never forget!
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7.2.4 with Denon X4300W, ATI 2005 & 1807 Amps, Kef Reference 203 Mains, 202c Ctr, 201 Surr, Ci200RR-THX Top Rears, Q300 Frt Hts, E301 Rear Surr, Power Sound Audio PSA dual S3600i Subs,
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post #60 of 63 Old 12-04-2018, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zorax2 View Post
We did this at "comfortable" listening levels. Luke's speakers are incredible and would sound great at any volume but we didn't chase high dBs that I can recall. I don't think we would have heard differences at any level (sound quality or noise floor). Luke might recall the level but I'm thinking it was -10 dB from reference. There is ZERO distortion with his speakers so it could have been much louder and would have still been comfortable.

I think we used -10 dB at my theater in a well treated room with Kef Reference speakers.

Now if you want to listen to high dBs, stop by the next Minneapolis area theater crawl and experience a mini-earthquake with over 150 dB of hard hitting bass at Luke's. It's an experience you'll never forget!


So according to your experience the ATI brings zero added value vs. the internal Denon amp?

As for the crawl, would love to get some info. Can you please point me to a thread where it is discussed? Thanks!


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Dedicated Sonus Faber HT 7.2.4 | FRONTS: Sonus Faber Venere 2.0 CENTER: Sonus Faber Venere Centre FRONT WIDES: Sonus Faber Venere 1.5 SURROUNDS: Sonus Faber Venere 1.5 TF/TR - ATMOS-DTS:X: Sonus Faber Venere Wall (4) | RECEIVER: Marantz SR7010 AMPLIFICATION: Monolith 7x200 | SUBWOOFERS: Dual 18" Dayton RSS460 Custom Build | Behringer iNuke 6000DSP | Velodyne SMS-1 DISPLAY: JVC D-ILA RS-46 w/ 128" 16:9 1.4 TREATMENT: Custom Bass Traps and Acoustic Panels (11)
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