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post #1 of 34 Old 12-15-2016, 10:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Seeking advice on upgrade?

I have an Onkyo HTIB HT-S5300, had it six years.
Been running it with some older Mission speakers. In process of upgrading new speakers and sub. (Ordered some KEF Q300 speakers)

I have been happy with the system for the money paid but looking for a little more. Receiver is HT-R580. Manual says 130 watts @ 6 ohms but not sure if that is 2 channel. Not sure what THD is.

Two questions:
1) If I upgrade receiver will I get any meaningful improvement in sound for HT and music. Do not have a 4k TV, have panasonic plasma vt58, so don't think 4k does anything for me. Only 5.1 system, not interested in anything more.

2) Would like to stream music. Current receiver does not have network capability. Is there a work around? Is this reason enough to upgrade?

If upgrade looking at yamaha's v581 or v781. Or denon s720 or s920.

Last edited by Meature; 12-16-2016 at 08:41 AM.
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post #2 of 34 Old 12-15-2016, 10:58 PM
 
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Not being familiar with your speakers maybe and usually the best place to upgrade first are probably new speakers maybe some of these ?

https://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SP-PK.../dp/B00IK8I9K2

And Maybe something like this at some point or now ?

http://www.monoprice.com/product?c_i...seq=1&format=2
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post #3 of 34 Old 12-16-2016, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by synccoil View Post
Not being familiar with your speakers maybe and usually the best place to upgrade first are probably new speakers maybe some of these ?

https://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SP-PK.../dp/B00IK8I9K2

And Maybe something like this at some point or now ?

http://www.monoprice.com/product?c_i...seq=1&format=2
Syncoil,
Thanks for response. I should be clearer in my post, I will go back and edit.
My question is about upgrading receiver from the Onkyo HT-R580 that came with my HTIB (ONkyo HT-S5300).
Receiver is working fine. Is the receiver that comes with HTIB inferior?
If I upgrade to basic yamaha or denon would I notice improved sound quality? (Don't need 4k, don't have 4k TV, don't need Atmos).

(Speakers I ordered were some KEF Q300 and center)

However, do want music streaming capability. Is this reason enough to upgrade? Is there a work around to allow existing receiver without network capability to stream?
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post #4 of 34 Old 12-16-2016, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meature View Post
Syncoil,
Thanks for response. I should be clearer in my post, I will go back and edit.
My question is about upgrading receiver from the Onkyo HT-R580 that came with my HTIB (ONkyo HT-S5300).
Receiver is working fine. Is the receiver that comes with HTIB inferior?
If I upgrade to basic yamaha or denon would I notice improved sound quality? (Don't need 4k, don't have 4k TV, don't need Atmos).
I doubt that you'd hear any quality difference. More expensive receivers do include somewhat more sophisticated roomEQ software than the version of Audyssey that your current receiver has.

If you haven't already, please take the time to look through the Audyssey 101/FAQ. It'll help you to get a good calibration. The instructions in the receiver's owner's manual are pathetically inadequate.

Quote:
(Speakers I ordered were some KEF Q300 and center)

However, do want music streaming capability. Is this reason enough to upgrade? Is there a work around to allow existing receiver without network capability to stream?
One workaround would be to use an HDMI-connected media streamer. There are lots of different ones available. Roku and Chromecast come immediately to mind, but there are others. In particular, if your computer has an HDMI video output, you could use that.
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post #5 of 34 Old 12-16-2016, 10:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
I doubt that you'd hear any quality difference. More expensive receivers do include somewhat more sophisticated roomEQ software than the version of Audyssey that your current receiver has.

If you haven't already, please take the time to look through the Audyssey 101/FAQ. It'll help you to get a good calibration. The instructions in the receiver's owner's manual are pathetically inadequate.



One workaround would be to use an HDMI-connected media streamer. There are lots of different ones available. Roku and Chromecast come immediately to mind, but there are others. In particular, if your computer has an HDMI video output, you could use that.
Seldon,
Thank you very helpful and informative. I did not even realize that this receiver does have a basic level of Audyssey, I see it now in the manual and will calibrate along with help of FAQ you reference.

Follow up question, (please excuse my ignorance, not knowledgeable on these matters), I think I understand the HDMI media streamer would plug into one of the unused ports on the receiver. Don't currently have HDMI media streamer as TV has built in apps for netflix and amazon we have been using. A little research should enable me to figure out without too much trouble.

What I don't understand is your comment on the computer. Some of our computers do have HDMI media out but I have no idea how this would work. How would it get to the receiver, the receiver is not networked?
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post #6 of 34 Old 12-16-2016, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Meature View Post
Seldon,
Thank you very helpful and informative. I did not even realize that this receiver does have a basic level of Audyssey, I see it now in the manual and will calibrate along with help of FAQ you reference.

Follow up question, (please excuse my ignorance, not knowledgeable on these matters), I think I understand the HDMI media streamer would plug into one of the unused ports on the receiver. Don't currently have HDMI media streamer as TV has built in apps for netflix and amazon we have been using. A little research should enable me to figure out without too much trouble.

What I don't understand is your comment on the computer. Some of our computers do have HDMI media out but I have no idea how this would work. How would it get to the receiver, the receiver is not networked?
If your computer has an HDMI output, and it's close enough to the receiver, then you can run an HDMI cable from the computer to the receiver. The receiver does not need an internet connection.

So far as the receiver is concerned, the computer is just another HDMI player device. So far as the computer is concerned, the receiver is just another audio/video display. The computer's HDMI video driver normally is accompanied by an HDMI audio driver, too. In principle, anything you can see and hear on the computer you can see and hear by way of the receiver. The computer does have to provide a video signal that's one of the standard entertainment resolutions -- 1920x1080 at 60Hz is the same as 1080p, and 1280x720 at 60Hz is the same as 720p. In order to configure the computer's HDMI audio and video, the receiver and TV do have to be powered on and connected to the computer. After doing the configuring, you'd use media player software in the computer to select appropriate network streaming service. I like to use Kodi, It's free and easier to configure than many other media player packages. https://kodi.tv/
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post #7 of 34 Old 12-16-2016, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meature View Post
I have an Onkyo HTIB HT-S5300, had it six years.
Been running it with some older Mission speakers. In process of upgrading new speakers and sub. (Ordered some KEF Q300 speakers)

I have been happy with the system for the money paid but looking for a little more. Receiver is HT-R580. Manual says 130 watts @ 6 ohms but not sure if that is 2 channel. Not sure what THD is.

Two questions:
1) If I upgrade receiver will I get any meaningful improvement in sound for HT and music. Do not have a 4k TV, have panasonic plasma vt58, so don't think 4k does anything for me. Only 5.1 system, not interested in anything more.

2) Would like to stream music. Current receiver does not have network capability. Is there a work around? Is this reason enough to upgrade?

If upgrade looking at yamaha's v581 or v781. Or denon s720 or s920.

Your Onkyo HT-R580 Receiver was only sold as part of a HTIB system and not available separately. That means that it was built to an even lower price point than the Onkyo AVR receivers that are sold separately for $200-$300 new. Onkyo's specifications are very inflated on the HTIM systems. The literature may say it puts out 130 watts x 7 channels, but if you were to bench test it, you'd find that that RMS power output was available with only one-two channels driven. The AVR is the backbone of the system that you build. A better built more powerful AVR will definitely sound better on your KEF Q300 speakers.

Onkyo HT-S5300 home theater system - $599 MSRP
1 receiver, 7 speakers, and powered subwoofer
iPod dock included

http://www.onkyousa.com/Products/mod...&class=Systems





Onkyo HT-R580 Receiver - $149 used/EBAY

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565






Onkyo HT-R580 Specifications

130 watts x 7 into 6 ohms
1080p-compatible HDMI video switching (4 in, 1 out)
HDMI version 1.4a — supports 3D video and Audio Return Channel
built-in decoding for DTS-HD Master Audio™, DTS-ES, DTS Neo:6, Dolby® TrueHD, Dolby® Digital, and Dolby® Pro Logic® IIz audio formats
192kHz/24-bit Burr-Brown digital-to-analog converters for all channels
four DSP gaming modes, including Rock, Sports, Action, and Role Playing
Audyssey Dynamic Volume™ mode keeps listening levels steady to avoid overly loud peaks such as on TV commercials
Audyssey Dynamic EQ™ for clearer surround sound at lower volumes
audio inputs include 2 stereo analog RCA, 2 coaxial digital, and 2 optical digital
video inputs include 5 composite, 2 component, and 4 HDMI
video outputs for TV include 1 composite, 1 component, and 1 HDMI
Dimensions: 17-1/8 x 5-15/16 x 12-15/16
Weight: 19 lbs
Warranty: 2 years



Today people buy off the internet and usually make their choice based upon a list of features without ever listening to the AVR. The longer the list of features at a price point, the better it sells compared to other similar units on amazon. The majority of today's gotta-have features--auto-setup, GUI menus, AirPlay, iPod/iPhone/iPad compatibility, home networking, HD Radio, Bluetooth, HDMI switching, digital-to-analog converters, Dolby and DTS surround processors--are sourced and manufactured by other companies. Industry insiders refer to the practice of cramming as many features as possible into the box as "checklist design." It doesn't matter if those features are useful to the majority of buyers, or if they're easy to use; no, the features are included to make the product more attractive to potential buyers. It's a numbers game, pure and simple. The receiver with the right combination of features is judged to be the best receiver.

Every year receiver manufacturers pay out more and more money (in the form of royalties and licensing fees) to Apple, Audyssey, Bluetooth, HD Radio, XM-Sirius, Dolby, DTS and other companies, and those dollars consume an ever bigger chunk of the design budget. The engineers have to make do with whatever is left to make the receiver build quality fit within budget. Retail prices of receivers, the ones that sell in big numbers, never go up. The $300 to $500 models are where most of the sales action is, just like 10, 20 or 30 years ago, when their $300 to $500 models weren't packed to the gills with features. Something's got to go, and build quality usually takes the hit.

That's why it doesn't really matter which company's budget receiver you get, until you get up to about $900 and over, they are all not built to last regardless of the long list of features.You will probably find more value per dollar in older audio gear used or refurbished than buying the latest budget AVR listed on the internet. The trick is to buy old enough that the price has dropped within your price range, but new enough that the feature set is still unusable.

Fortunately, the most important thing your getting from an AVR is the audio. Unless your system is more complex than 7.1 channels, the quality of the amplifier and preamplifier section is going to make the most impact on your listening experience. Video is in a state of flux right now. It's more cost effective to hook your Cable/Satalite, BluRay player directly to the TV and upgrade the video as you're ready and can afford it. Spend your money on the quality of the receiver, not on a long list of features, most of which you may not use that much.

Denon had a "Ci" series or AVR's about 5 years ago that in my opinion were the last to have really good build quality and premium parts for under $1,000 used. They retailed for between $1,200 and $2,900, but are commonly now available used or refurbished between $200 - $500:

If you don't need all the bells and whistles of a Yamaha v581/v781 or Denon s720/s920, the best deal out there right now is a Denon AVR 3312Ci on avsforum classifieds asking $375 including PayPal fees and shipping cost. It sold new for $1,200 and is still available from Denon refurbished for $650. It has the power to accommodate larger speakers if you ever chose to upgrade.

Look at the information posted below. You can see the difference in build quality between a $1,200 Denon 3312Ci at 27 lbs with a 3 year warranty from for a few years ago versus a $250 (approx) Onkyo HT-R580 receiver at only 17 lbs with a 2 year warranty. Most of that difference in weight is the size of the power transformer which directly impacts real world watts output (as opposed to manufacturer's specifications). The denon 3312Ci has better audio and larger power supply than any of the AVR's on your list. The fact that you can buy it now for $375 only makes it a better value.


Denon AVR-3312CI Integrated Network A/V Receiver


Price: $1,200 new ($375 avs classifieds)

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/209-au...r-airplay.html

https://usa.denon.com/us/product/ref...sref/avr3312ci


Reviews

http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...bXwt11mJagq.97

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiv...receiver-video

http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/De...r-review.shtml


With its vast array of inputs and network functions, the Denon AVR-3312CI 7.2-Channel Integrated Network A/V Receiver puts you in command. As the flagship model of the IN-Command Series, this receiver sets a new standard in 3D, Blu-ray, game console, and other entertainment device integration. It features seven discrete 125-watt channels of equal power, dual subwoofer outputs, and multiple high-resolution audio formats for superior surround sound. It also supports HDMI v1.4a, so you can get the most out of 3D content. Enhanced by digital network audio/photo streaming capabilities, including support for AirPlay, mp3/WMA/WAV and FLAC HD audio, and Windows 7 compatibility, the AVR-3312CI is a solid foundation for your networked home entertainment system.

Equal amp power design with seven discrete channels, each rated at 125 watts*, and dual subwoofer outputs

HDMI v1.4a supports all 3D formats and Audio Return Channel

Ethernet, USB, Phono, and seven HDMI inputs for added connectivity

Supports AirPlay for wireless music streaming from iPhone, iPad, iPod touch, or iTunes

Audyssey MultEQ XT, GUI overlay, and remote control make setup and operation easy

Enhanced network capability includes Pandora, Flickr, Napster, and Rhapsody online support


Specifications

Audio Decoding: Dolby: TrueHD, Digital 5.1, EX, Pro Logic II/IIx/IIz DTS: DTS-HD (Master Audio, High Resolution Audio), DTS 5.1, ES, 96/24, Neo:6
Audyssey: DSX, Dynamic EQ, Dynamic Volume
Other: 3 DSP modes, multichannel stereo, mono movie, virtual, direct, pure direct
3D: Yes
Number of Amp Channels: 7
Rated Power (Watts Per Channel): 125 watts into 8 ohms two channels driven
Auto Setup/Room EQ: Audyssey MultEQ XT
Dimensions (W x H x D, Inches): 17.13 x 6.68 x 15.05
Weight (Pounds): 27
Warranty: 3 years

Price: $1,200

Connections

Inputs: Video: HDMI 1.4a (7), component video (2), S-video (2), composite (5)
Audio: Coaxial digital (2), optical digital (2), analog stereo (7), phono (1),
Additional: Ethernet (1), Sirius (1), AM (1), FM/HD Radio (1), AirPlay, Bluetooth Accessory: Dock control (1)
Outputs: Video: HDMI 1.4 (2), component video (1), composite (2)
Audio: Analog stereo (3), 7.2-channel preamp (1), 0.25-inch headphone (1)
Additional: RS-232 (1), 12-volt trigger (2), IR remote (in/out)





Last edited by Peterc613; 12-16-2016 at 02:20 PM.
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post #8 of 34 Old 12-16-2016, 11:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
If your computer has an HDMI output, and it's close enough to the receiver, then you can run an HDMI cable from the computer to the receiver. The receiver does not need an internet connection.

So far as the receiver is concerned, the computer is just another HDMI player device. So far as the computer is concerned, the receiver is just another audio/video display. The computer's HDMI video driver normally is accompanied by an HDMI audio driver, too. In principle, anything you can see and hear on the computer you can see and hear by way of the receiver. The computer does have to provide a video signal that's one of the standard entertainment resolutions -- 1920x1080 at 60Hz is the same as 1080p, and 1280x720 at 60Hz is the same as 720p. In order to configure the computer's HDMI audio and video, the receiver and TV do have to be powered on and connected to the computer. After doing the configuring, you'd use media player software in the computer to select appropriate network streaming service. I like to use Kodi, It's free and easier to configure than many other media player packages. https://kodi.tv/
Seldon,
Many thanks for taking time to respond and help me understand!
Computer is not really close to modem but at least now I have some idea of how it would work.
However, the option to add a HDMI media device to the current receiver is a great option. So I do not need to upgrade receiver if the intent is only for streaming music. Now that I have a little direction I can research the various options for devices and streaming. Looks like there are some forums here that can help, I just know if it was possible with my 2010 receiver.
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post #9 of 34 Old 12-16-2016, 11:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterc613 View Post
Your Onkyo HT-R580 Receiver was only sold as part of a HTIB system and not available separately. That means that it was built to an even lower price point than the Onkyo AVR receivers that are sold separately for $200-$300 new. Onkyo's specifications are very inflated on the HTIM systems. The literature may say it puts out 130 watts x 7 channels, but if you were to bench test it, you'd find that that RMS power output was available with only one-two channels driven. The AVR is the backbone of the system that you build. A better built more powerful AVR will definitely sound better on your KEF Q300 speakers.

Onkyo HT-S5300 home theater system - $599 MSRP
1 receiver, 7 speakers, and powered subwoofer
iPod dock included

http://www.onkyousa.com/Products/mod...&class=Systems





Onkyo HT-R580 Receiver - $149 used/EBAY

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565






Onkyo HT-R580 Specifications

130 watts x 7 into 6 ohms
1080p-compatible HDMI video switching (4 in, 1 out)
HDMI version 1.4a — supports 3D video and Audio Return Channel
built-in decoding for DTS-HD Master Audio™, DTS-ES, DTS Neo:6, Dolby® TrueHD, Dolby® Digital, and Dolby® Pro Logic® IIz audio formats
192kHz/24-bit Burr-Brown digital-to-analog converters for all channels
four DSP gaming modes, including Rock, Sports, Action, and Role Playing
Audyssey Dynamic Volume™ mode keeps listening levels steady to avoid overly loud peaks such as on TV commercials
Audyssey Dynamic EQ™ for clearer surround sound at lower volumes
audio inputs include 2 stereo analog RCA, 2 coaxial digital, and 2 optical digital
video inputs include 5 composite, 2 component, and 4 HDMI
video outputs for TV include 1 composite, 1 component, and 1 HDMI
Dimensions: 17-1/8 x 5-15/16 x 12-15/16
Weight: 19 lbs
Warranty: 2 years



Today people buy off the internet and usually make their choice based upon a list of features without ever listening to the AVR. The longer the list of features at a price point, the better it sells compared to other similar units on amazon. The majority of today's gotta-have features--auto-setup, GUI menus, AirPlay, iPod/iPhone/iPad compatibility, home networking, HD Radio, Bluetooth, HDMI switching, digital-to-analog converters, Dolby and DTS surround processors--are sourced and manufactured by other companies. Industry insiders refer to the practice of cramming as many features as possible into the box as "checklist design." It doesn't matter if those features are useful to the majority of buyers, or if they're easy to use; no, the features are included to make the product more attractive to potential buyers. It's a numbers game, pure and simple. The receiver with the right combination of features is judged to be the best receiver.

Every year receiver manufacturers pay out more and more money (in the form of royalties and licensing fees) to Apple, Audyssey, Bluetooth, HD Radio, XM-Sirius, Dolby, DTS and other companies, and those dollars consume an ever bigger chunk of the design budget. The engineers have to make do with whatever is left to make the receiver build quality fit within budget. Retail prices of receivers, the ones that sell in big numbers, never go up. The $300 to $500 models are where most of the sales action is, just like 10, 20 or 30 years ago, when their $300 to $500 models weren't packed to the gills with features. Something's got to go, and build quality usually takes the hit.

That's why it doesn't really matter which company's budget receiver you get, until you get up to about $900 and over, they are all not built to last regardless of the long list of features.You will probably find more value per dollar in older audio gear used or refurbished than buying the latest budget AVR listed on the internet. The trick is to buy old enough that the price has dropped within your price range, but new enough that the feature set is still unusable.

Fortunately, the most important thing your getting from an AVR is the audio. Unless your system is more complex than 7.1 channels, the quality of the amplifier and preamplifier section is going to make the most impact on your listening experience. Video is in a state of flux right now. It's more cost effective to hook your Cable/Satalite, BluRay player directly to the TV and upgrade the video as you're ready and can afford it. Spend your money on the quality of the receiver, not on a long list of features, most of which you may not use that much.

Denon had a "Ci" series or AVR's about 5 years ago that in my opinion were the last to have really good build quality and premium parts for under $1,000 used. They retailed for between $1,200 and $2,900, but are commonly now available used or refurbished between $200 - $500:

If you don't need all the bells and whistles of a Yamaha v581/v781 or Denon s720/s920, the best deal out there right now is a Denon AVR 3312Ci on avsforum classifieds asking $375 including PayPal fees and shipping cost. It sold new for $1,200 and is still available from Denon refurbished for $650. It has the power to accommodate larger speakers if you ever chose to upgrade.

Look at the information posted below. You can see the difference in build quality between a $1,200 Denon 3312Ci at 27 lbs with a 3 year warranty from for a few years ago versus a $250 (approx) Onkyo HT-R580 receiver at only 17 lbs with a 2 year warranty. Most of that difference in weight is the size of the power transformer which directly impacts real world watts output (as opposed to manufacturer's specifications). The denon 3312Ci has better audio and larger power supply than any of the AVR's on your list. The fact that you can buy it now for $375 only makes it a better value.


Denon AVR-3312CI Integrated Network A/V Receiver


Price: $1,200 new ($375 avs classifieds)

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/209-au...r-airplay.html

https://usa.denon.com/us/product/ref...sref/avr3312ci


Reviews

http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...bXwt11mJagq.97

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiv...receiver-video

http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/De...r-review.shtml


With its vast array of inputs and network functions, the Denon AVR-3312CI 7.2-Channel Integrated Network A/V Receiver puts you in command. As the flagship model of the IN-Command Series, this receiver sets a new standard in 3D, Blu-ray, game console, and other entertainment device integration. It features seven discrete 125-watt channels of equal power, dual subwoofer outputs, and multiple high-resolution audio formats for superior surround sound. It also supports HDMI v1.4a, so you can get the most out of 3D content. Enhanced by digital network audio/photo streaming capabilities, including support for AirPlay, mp3/WMA/WAV and FLAC HD audio, and Windows 7 compatibility, the AVR-3312CI is a solid foundation for your networked home entertainment system.

Equal amp power design with seven discrete channels, each rated at 125 watts*, and dual subwoofer outputs

HDMI v1.4a supports all 3D formats and Audio Return Channel

Ethernet, USB, Phono, and seven HDMI inputs for added connectivity

Supports AirPlay for wireless music streaming from iPhone, iPad, iPod touch, or iTunes

Audyssey MultEQ XT, GUI overlay, and remote control make setup and operation easy

Enhanced network capability includes Pandora, Flickr, Napster, and Rhapsody online support


Specifications

Audio Decoding: Dolby: TrueHD, Digital 5.1, EX, Pro Logic II/IIx/IIz DTS: DTS-HD (Master Audio, High Resolution Audio), DTS 5.1, ES, 96/24, Neo:6
Audyssey: DSX, Dynamic EQ, Dynamic Volume
Other: 3 DSP modes, multichannel stereo, mono movie, virtual, direct, pure direct
3D: Yes
Number of Amp Channels: 7
Rated Power (Watts Per Channel): 125 watts into 8 ohms two channels driven
Auto Setup/Room EQ: Audyssey MultEQ XT
Dimensions (W x H x D, Inches): 17.13 x 6.68 x 15.05
Weight (Pounds): 27
Warranty: 3 years

Price: $1,200

Connections

Inputs: Video: HDMI 1.4a (7), component video (2), S-video (2), composite (5)
Audio: Coaxial digital (2), optical digital (2), analog stereo (7), phono (1),
Additional: Ethernet (1), Sirius (1), AM (1), FM/HD Radio (1), AirPlay, Bluetooth Accessory: Dock control (1)
Outputs: Video: HDMI 1.4 (2), component video (1), composite (2)
Audio: Analog stereo (3), 7.2-channel preamp (1), 0.25-inch headphone (1)
Additional: RS-232 (1), 12-volt trigger (2), IR remote (in/out)




Peterc,
Thanks for the response. YES, that's my system, too funny. That's what I was wondering if the receiver included in my HTIB was lacking. I know Onkyo gets a bad rap but this inexpensive system has served me well and is still working. But guess at this price point they have to use lower tier components.
I really like your comments on the AVR market, seems to make a lot of sense, although admittedly I don't know anything.

Not sure what I'll do about receiver, but some things to think about.
I have a plasma TV that I like and serves me well, I am not upgrading that for a while so 4k is not important to me.

Question for you, if I were to plug cableTV or DVD directly into TV and bypass receiver how do I get the audio to the speakers?
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post #10 of 34 Old 12-17-2016, 01:50 AM
 
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A better built more powerful AVR will definitely sound better on your KEF Q300 speakers.




Spend your money on the quality of the receiver, not on a long list of features, most of which you may not use that much.


Denon had a "Ci" series or AVR's about 5 years ago that in my opinion were the last to have really good build quality and premium parts for under $1,000 used. They retailed for between $1,200 and $2,900, but are commonly now available used or refurbished between $200 - $500:

If you don't need all the bells and whistles of a Yamaha v581/v781 or Denon s720/s920, the best deal out there right now is a Denon AVR 3312Ci on avsforum classifieds asking $375 including PayPal fees and shipping cost. It sold new for $1,200 and is still available from Denon refurbished for $650. It has the power to accommodate larger speakers if you ever chose to upgrade.

Look at the information posted below. You can see the difference in build quality between a $1,200 Denon 3312Ci at 27 lbs with a 3 year warranty from for a few years ago versus a $250 (approx) Onkyo HT-R580 receiver at only 17 lbs with a 2 year warranty. Most of that difference in weight is the size of the power transformer which directly impacts real world watts output (as opposed to manufacturer's specifications). The denon 3312Ci has better audio and larger power supply than any of the AVR's on your list. The fact that you can buy it now for $375 only makes it a better value.


[/IMG]
That Denon AVR 3312Ci sounds like one of "THE" swinging deals ,that might be a good play .


Ditto HTIB specific AVR's are rubbish as are a lot of 18 lb AVR.

Clean wattage without clipping needs a robust power supply and a meaty transformer an 18lb AVR ain't going to last long or cut it with HT dynamic peaks which can call for an instantaneous 20db transient increase in wattage in any given channel or channels .


I run an older but not too old excellent all metal Sony real deal ES 7.1 AVR in here with real deal 110wpc all channels driven at full bandwidth on decent compact 5.1 speakers in here

It sounds better than a lot of cheap 5.1 configurations with L/R towers and bookshelf size surrounds ,

FWIW they rated all those and a lot of real decent Dennon and Yamaha in conservative RMS watts all channels driven at full bandwidth and most if them bench over spec .

This AVR has a 1/4" thick billet aircraft aluminum brushed finish frt panel and a chassis like bridge girders , a high quality feel all around dual DSP and good clean sound and bullet proof stout speaker binding posts .

IMO the OP's high quality Kef's may not like a cheap HTIB radio IMO .

This thing weighs just over 30 LBS like a lot of premium Dennon and you can buy them or nice Dennon's real clean all day on E bay for $100.00 -200.00 -$300.00 now depending on the age and model and lots with free shipping.

Mostly they were over $1,000.00 - $1500.00 or more new and lots of them look and work as new .

Folks that could afford these usually put them in nice equipment cabinets and kept good care of them . I have two of these I bought brand new , both are in mint condition immaculate and in use .

This one is in my BR-office next to this PC desk in an executive bookcase with a 2015 55" Sony XBR HDR TV on the wall above the bookcase and it wouldent look out of palace in a multi million $$$ home it has all the configurations and 12V triggers for remote control ,multi zones and pro installation like a custom Creston control system like a premium Dennon or Yammy .

Setting aside room EQ and maybe networking Wi Fi these older Sony ES things are so far above a $ 500.00 AVR it ain't funny . 600.00 might get the OP something decent and $900.00 even better new .

Last edited by synccoil; 12-17-2016 at 01:59 AM.
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post #11 of 34 Old 12-17-2016, 08:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by synccoil View Post
That Denon AVR 3312Ci sounds like one of "THE" swinging deals ,that might be a good play .


Ditto HTIB specific AVR's are rubbish as are a lot of 18 lb AVR.

Clean wattage without clipping needs a robust power supply and a meaty transformer an 18lb AVR ain't going to last long or cut it with HT dynamic peaks which can call for an instantaneous 20db transient increase in wattage in any given channel or channels .


I run an older but not too old excellent all metal Sony real deal ES 7.1 AVR in here with real deal 110wpc all channels driven at full bandwidth on decent compact 5.1 speakers in here

It sounds better than a lot of cheap 5.1 configurations with L/R towers and bookshelf size surrounds ,

FWIW they rated all those and a lot of real decent Dennon and Yamaha in conservative RMS watts all channels driven at full bandwidth and most if them bench over spec .

This AVR has a 1/4" thick billet aircraft aluminum brushed finish frt panel and a chassis like bridge girders , a high quality feel all around dual DSP and good clean sound and bullet proof stout speaker binding posts .

IMO the OP's high quality Kef's may not like a cheap HTIB radio IMO .

This thing weighs just over 30 LBS like a lot of premium Dennon and you can buy them or nice Dennon's real clean all day on E bay for $100.00 -200.00 -$300.00 now depending on the age and model and lots with free shipping.

Mostly they were over $1,000.00 - $1500.00 or more new and lots of them look and work as new .

Folks that could afford these usually put them in nice equipment cabinets and kept good care of them . I have two of these I bought brand new , both are in mint condition immaculate and in use .

This one is in my BR-office next to this PC desk in an executive bookcase with a 2015 55" Sony XBR HDR TV on the wall above the bookcase and it wouldent look out of palace in a multi million $$$ home it has all the configurations and 12V triggers for remote control ,multi zones and pro installation like a custom Creston control system like a premium Dennon or Yammy .

Setting aside room EQ and maybe networking Wi Fi these older Sony ES things are so far above a $ 500.00 AVR it ain't funny . 600.00 might get the OP something decent and $900.00 even better new .
Thanks Synccoil, appreciate the experienced commentary. You guys are making a persuasive case for an older, higher end, robust AVR. I do not need all the bells and whistles and now that it appears I can stream music even for a non wi-fi enabled AVR this becomes a real possibility. Obviously there is some risk going used and no warranty but even if I get lemoned it is not the end of the world.

Just following up with question, if at some point in the future I do go 4k TV, I assume the TV can process the signal and by pass the non 4K AVR, however, is there I way to get good quality audio to the speakers given that I have bypassed the AVR?
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post #12 of 34 Old 12-17-2016, 08:46 AM
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Question for you, if I were to plug cableTV or DVD directly into TV and bypass receiver how do I get the audio to the speakers?
The TV should have a digital optical audio output. You can connect that to the receiver. Most older TVs can only forward stereo PCM audio to the optical output from devices connected to them, although some can forward multichannel Dolby Digital.

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Just following up with question, if at some point in the future I do go 4k TV, I assume the TV can process the signal and by pass the non 4K AVR, however, is there I way to get good quality audio to the speakers given that I have bypassed the AVR?
Most 4K UHD disc players have two HDMI outputs. One is intended to connect to a 4K TV for video or to a 4K-capable receiver for both audio and video. The other is intended to be connected to a non-4K receiver for audio. Alternatively, you can use the optical audio out from the TV as described above.
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post #13 of 34 Old 12-17-2016, 11:36 AM
 
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Thanks Synccoil, appreciate the experienced commentary. You guys are making a persuasive case for an older, higher end, robust AVR. I do not need all the bells and whistles and now that it appears I can stream music even for a non wi-fi enabled AVR this becomes a real possibility. Obviously there is some risk going used and no warranty but even if I get lemoned it is not the end of the world.

Just following up with question, if at some point in the future I do go 4k TV, I assume the TV can process the signal and by pass the non 4K AVR, however, is there I way to get good quality audio to the speakers given that I have bypassed the AVR?

Use the S/PDIF or HDMI audio return cable at the TV to your AVR for external decoding up to 24/48/96 hires audio.and probably 24/192 lossless hires on HDMI

There are alternate S/PDIF digital audio ,and 2 ch or maybe multi channel analog and Coaxial inputs on most AVR and also alternate HDMI inputs on newer AVR

HDMI can transport audio and video or either one . the others are audio paths only .


Note that older AVR without HDMI will not support new lossless and high bit rate lossey multi channel movie formats for external decoding but S/PDIF transports 24/48/96 or PCM /44 2.0 audio


S/DPIF output on TVs is limited to the older Dolby Digital and DTS 5.1 formats ,up to 24/44 /96 hires music or on some TV only 2 ch PCM/44 audio data whereas HDMI ARC will be more versatile .

HDMI ARC is a versitsle data transport method and Your AVR will extract the audio data .


Amazon, Vudu , Netflix ,etc support DD ,DD+ and DTS 5.1 legacy formats for the old dogs and the new dogs that have the old and new formats .

Newer audio format support implies legacy digital audio format support but not necessarily 5.1 analog I/O cables or S/PDIF or PCM Coax .

UHD BD player will have the legacy formats *on HDMI and newer high bit rate lossey and clean lossless formats .



S/PDIF and Coax only support audio data .HDMI arc is the data transport of choice now.

That Dennon above with HDMI and presumably HDMI ARC for $375.00 seems to have a Nice warranty, That model and the Denon commander series is well regarded and may be a good play if you don't want some of the newer formats and maybe Room correction out there.

If you shop on paybay you have E bay and PP buyers protection if you use PP from DOA or not as described regardless of returns accepted or not as long as the device is described as used or better or if the condition is mis represented but top rated sellers are usually fine ,it's important to sellers to maintain the rating I have one and active listings but no AVR or audio visual .

I don't have newer features or HDMI in this Sony ES and it works fine for what I play on it and up to hires music audio to 100khz anyway but 16/44 and 24/48 are all you need and 24/48 is optional,the rest is snake oil IMO .

Newer multi function DSP and Wifi are cheaper than quality AVR builds so they come on the cheap stuff too .

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post #14 of 34 Old 12-17-2016, 12:46 PM
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@Meature Just a posting etiquette heads up for future reference. You should either edit longer quoted posts down and or remove multiple images and long copy pastes by the quoted poster to reduce duplicating long posts or the easiest way to respond is to just add @ to the signature you're responding to😉. This helps those of us on mobile devices and is considered good posting form. Good thing is you're getting some helpful information here. 👍
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post #15 of 34 Old 12-17-2016, 01:11 PM - Thread Starter
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MadMax, understood, I see where that is annoying, thanks for the gentle correction.
I did it here by unchecking the quote box, which I will do.
However, I'm such a dope, I don't understand the @ comment--could not see how to make that work can you give me remedial direction.
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post #16 of 34 Old 12-17-2016, 01:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Selden, thanks again. Think I've got it. This would be relevant if I were to upgrade TV to 4k and new TV would have the appropriate HDMI outs or possibly optical. If I get an older receiver I would certainly get one with multiple HDMI connections.
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post #17 of 34 Old 12-17-2016, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Synccoil,
Appreciate the detailed explanation. I won't claim I understand all it but think I am capturing the jest. Sounds like HDMI ARC out would be the best, but not sure older receiver can handle. Nonetheless older receiver can accept HDMI from a newer TV and that would get some kind of 5.1 which is good enough for my purposes right now.

Good point on the buyer protection if I go ebay and PP, never used it, hope never to use it but it does offer some recourse.
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post #18 of 34 Old 12-17-2016, 01:34 PM
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MadMax, understood, I see where that is annoying, thanks for the gentle correction.
You're welcome. That's the spirit in which it was meant . Others here have helped inform me so I'm happy to pay it forward.


Quote:
I did it here by unchecking the quote box, which I will do.
However, I'm such a dope, I don't understand the @ comment--could not see how to make that work can you give me remedial direction.
No problem. I'm no expert on it all trust me but I did show you by using your handle earlier. I just added the @ ahead of it and that should have notified you. Usually I just shorten or split up the post by adding quote .... /quote in [] . The former at the beginning of the post I'm quoting and the latter at the end. I personally use the Tapatalk app for convenience but it's not as full featured posting wise as the actual website. Just easier for me to use.

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post #19 of 34 Old 12-17-2016, 01:47 PM
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You can also add the spoiler feature to the post you're quoting to hide it until rolled over on and clicked to hide images or spoiler posts .

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post #20 of 34 Old 12-17-2016, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
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@Madmax67
OK I am using this as a test.
I am unclear if the original post will be included with this approach.
Not a big deal either way, easy enough to check the box and copy whatever portion desired as you suggest.
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post #21 of 34 Old 12-17-2016, 02:58 PM
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@Madmax67
OK I am using this as a test.
I am unclear if the original post will be included with this approach.
Not a big deal either way, easy enough to check the box and copy whatever portion desired as you suggest.
You got it. To include a quoted post you still just use quote but you can edit it down to just the part that's relevant to your response or split it up( multi quote) if your responding to several points individually. If you've left the OP's info from the top of the original quote intact than that notifies them they have been quoted instead of just mentioned like using the @ ahead of their handle.

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post #22 of 34 Old 12-17-2016, 10:09 PM
 
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Synccoil,
Appreciate the detailed explanation. I won't claim I understand all it but think I am capturing the jest. Sounds like HDMI ARC out would be the best, but not sure older receiver can handle. Nonetheless older receiver can accept HDMI from a newer TV and that would get some kind of 5.1 which is good enough for my purposes right now.

Good point on the buyer protection if I go ebay and PP, never used it, hope never to use it but it does offer some recourse.
they often err to the consumer for anthing half way legit.

with recalcitrant seller , if the seller wont refund and they arbitrate in your favor they get into thier pocket and take care of you ,then they jack the sellers bank account or pay pal stash or maybe have someone pay them a visit if you know what I mean .......but it is slow unless the seller refunds quickly .

Top rated seller are seldom a problem that is an important attribute and they know it E bay doesn't just hand those out and you have to sell stuff with lots of good feedback to get it


I know because it took a good while top seller ,top seller plus ratings can only dip slightly below ~ 99% maybe at worst 97- 95% positive .Top seller Plus is the gold standard and again that phatt Dennon mentioned here with the decent warranty is entirely plausible IMO and maybe they will take an offer ?

Last edited by synccoil; 12-17-2016 at 10:23 PM.
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post #23 of 34 Old 12-17-2016, 10:18 PM - Thread Starter
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with recalcitrant seller , if the seller wont refund and they arbitrate in your favor they get into thier pocket and take care of you ,then they jack the sellers bank account or pay pall stash but it is slow ,

Top rated seller are seldom a problem that is an important attribute and they know it and E bay doesn't just hand those out.

That's good on Ebay, I didn't know they were that involved in potentially harming bad sellers. Makes a lot of sense they have a vested interested in making it a good place to transact. Just didn't know they got involved, I'm sure it is a lot of work for them.
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post #24 of 34 Old 12-17-2016, 10:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Meature View Post
with recalcitrant seller , if the seller wont refund and they arbitrate in your favor they get into thier pocket and take care of you ,then they jack the sellers bank account or pay pall stash but it is slow ,

Top rated seller are seldom a problem that is an important attribute and they know it and E bay doesn't just hand those out.

That's good on Ebay, I didn't know they were that involved in potentially harming bad sellers. Makes a lot of sense they have a vested interested in making it a good place to transact. Just didn't know they got involved, I'm sure it is a lot of work for them.
they get paid by lots of sellers to cover the staffs and cash reserve accruals E bay and PP are BIG business
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post #25 of 34 Old 12-18-2016, 02:10 AM
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S/DPIF output on TVs is limited to the older Dolby Digital and DTS 5.1 formats ,up to 24/44 /96 hires music or on some TV only 2 ch PCM/44 audio data whereas HDMI ARC will be more versatile .
Nope. HDMI ARC supports exactly the same audio formats and bitrates as S/PDIF.

The only times HDMI ARC provides anything additional in the audio space is if your TV downmixes from the optical output...but if it does, then odds are that it doesn't support ARC, either.
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Nope. HDMI ARC supports exactly the same audio formats and bitrates as S/PDIF.

The only times HDMI ARC provides anything additional in the audio space is if your TV downmixes from the optical output...but if it does, then odds are that it doesn't support ARC, either.
Maybe I am wrong and some of the limitations may instead be imposed at the specific TV sets supported S/PDIF formats and data bit stream rates./encodes for those outside of HDCP 2.2 protected content and or lossless multi channel audio data .

I belive S/PDIF does not support the newer lossless multi channel protected content audio data formats re: HDCP 2.2 and S/PDIF .
Quote:
S/PDIF is based on the AES3 interconnect standard.[1] S/PDIF can carry two channels of uncompressed PCM audio or compressed 5.1/7.1 surround sound (such as DTS audio codec); it cannot support lossless formats (such as Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio) that require greater bandwidth[2] like that available with HDMI or DisplayPort. -wikipedia -
As I understand it (unless I overlooked something ) HDCP 2.2 protected video and also lossless multi channel audio bit-stream content is only supported on HDMI or Display Port data cable transport for consumer devices and PC outside of any Wi FI ,Ethernet or cat 5/6 intermediate cable ,network Fibre transport that may or may not support that .


Quote:
HDCP 2.2 is a technology designed to prevent illegal copying of 4K Ultra HD content. Every link in your video chain must support HDCP 2.2 — your TV, video source, and any component the video signal passes through. -crutchfield-

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post #27 of 34 Old 12-18-2016, 03:10 PM
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Maybe I am wrong and the limitations may instead be imposed at the specific TV sets supported S/PDIF formats and data bit stream rates./encodes for those outside of HDCP 2.2 protected content and I belive S/PDIF does not support the newer lossless multi channel protected content audio data formats re: HDCP 2.2 .
HDMI ARC is S/PDIF. It's just carried over an HDMI data channel instead of along the optical cable. It has the exact same capabilities, including the maximum of 7 discrete audio channels (DTS 6.1 is the most complex multichannel audio format supported--it can't do any of the 7.1 audio formats).

The audio formats supported by HDMI ARC in the return channel are not the same as what are supported by HDMI directly in the main channel. That's why you should connect your HDMI source to a receiver for full-bandwidth audio if you plan to use it, because using the TV as a passthrough will cap you at DD 5.1 or DTS 6.1. No 7.1, no DTS Master, no Atmos.

Quote:
I belive S/PDIF does not support the newer lossless multi channel protected content audio data formats re: HDCP 2.2 and S/PDIF .
That is correct. Neither does ARC. HDCP is just copy protection, and is irrelevant to the discussion because ARC doesn't support the copy-protected data formats in the first place.
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post #28 of 34 Old 12-18-2016, 03:16 PM
 
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HDMI ARC is S/PDIF. It's just carried over an HDMI data channel instead of along the optical cable. It has the exact same capabilities, including the maximum of 7 discrete audio channels (DTS 6.1 is the most complex multichannel audio format supported--it can't do any of the 7.1 audio formats).

The audio formats supported by HDMI ARC in the return channel are not the same as what are supported by HDMI directly in the main channel. That's why you should connect your HDMI source to a receiver for full-bandwidth audio if you plan to use it, because using the TV as a passthrough will cap you at DD 5.1 or DTS 6.1. No 7.1, no DTS Master, no Atmos.


That is correct. Neither does ARC. HDCP is just copy protection, and is irrelevant to the discussion because ARC doesn't support the copy-protected data formats in the first place.
HDCP is certainly relevant to protected content on any data transport and I'm not so sure about multi channel lossless or maybe if they have hybrid lossless /lossey 6.1 multi channel protected content transporting on S/PDIF re: HDCP , Care to cite a reference on that or no I'm curious and lazy today ?

OTOH we are all entitled to your opinions but we cant change the facts .

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post #29 of 34 Old 12-18-2016, 03:19 PM
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HDCP is certainly relevant to protected content on any data transport but you are entitled to your opinion .
No, it isn't. There is no HDCP on optical, and there is no HDCP on HDMI ARC audio streams.
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No, it isn't. There is no HDCP on optical, and there is no HDCP on HDMI ARC audio streams.
right ( HDPC ) that why outside of bandwith limitations S/PDIF cant pass modern lossless multi channel protected audio content or we might well ditch the HDMI cables use CAT 5/6 wire or instead 8- 24 ga copper wire zip cords or a bundle of telco wire pairs that may have the bandwidth or no ?

they are working on 500Mbp/s - 1GB on telco POTS wire pairs now

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