Lyngdorf MP-50 | 12 Channel AV Processor; 9.1.6 with matrixed Wides and Top Middles - Page 102 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3031 of 3183 Old 11-26-2019, 09:10 PM
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In watching the video, he talks about the need NOT TO HAVE TO REDO RP if you add furniture. Rather, just taking additional measurements to add to the existing correction and having the unit recalculate new filters.

Yes, that's what he said; what's your point?
Apologies Noah. I totally misread your post and read it backwards. Please disregard my earlier comment.
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post #3032 of 3183 Old 12-02-2019, 09:03 AM
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What’s the feeling about room treatments when using a MP50? If so, which ones make the most sense (e.g. absorbers, bass traps, etc.). I know RP is designed to use in normal living spaces, but wanted to get any feedback. Thanks. SJ
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post #3033 of 3183 Old 12-03-2019, 10:16 AM
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What’s the feeling about room treatments when using a MP50? If so, which ones make the most sense (e.g. absorbers, bass traps, etc.). I know RP is designed to use in normal living spaces, but wanted to get any feedback. Thanks. SJ
I think you're putting the cart before the horse. A room with a proper treatment design should ALWAYS come first (if possible) and then any Auto EQ solution afterwards requires less work to make a good thing hopefully a little better. Just like any room domestically speaker, a good combination of absorption and diffusion is the way to go. Where each of these panels should go? You'd want to hire a consultant to really dial all that in for your room dimensions.
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post #3034 of 3183 Old 12-03-2019, 11:24 AM
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I agree, but see many arguments about that on another forum as it pertains to RP (some think it is designed for living spaces without room treatments). Wanted to get some real life feedback from folks. I'm looking at adding treatments and had a consultant put together a plan. However, they dislike ALL room correction. Thanks. SJ
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post #3035 of 3183 Old 12-03-2019, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by SJHT View Post
I agree, but see many arguments about that on another forum as it pertains to RP (some think it is designed for living spaces without room treatments). Wanted to get some real life feedback from folks. I'm looking at adding treatments and had a consultant put together a plan. However, they dislike ALL room correction. Thanks. SJ
Most room designers will unless you are limiting correction to schroeder and below. It's just the nature of the beast. Most think AutoEQ is a square peg for a round hole...room treatment being the round peg. Now below schroeder, often times you can achieve most correction manually, but if not, I'd bet if you asked to let you limit your correction to 200-400hz that'd they'd acquiesce.

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post #3036 of 3183 Old 12-03-2019, 01:09 PM
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What’s the feeling about room treatments when using a MP50? If so, which ones make the most sense (e.g. absorbers, bass traps, etc.).
The goal shouldn't be to get rid of all the effects of the room but instead to use listener preference to address the unwanted, audible colourations that the room is adding. Note the qualifiers. If you can't hear a problem, don't waste time addressing it. If you like what certain reflections are doing (wider soundstage, greater envelopment), then don't get rid of them. To that end, do the free stuff first: placement (subs, speakers, listeners). Doesn't cost anything to move those things around (to whatever extent you can). For problems that cannot be solved via placement, use room treatments. Finally, the room correction in your MP50 should be the finishing touch (voicing the frequency response to your personal preference). As powerful as RoomPerfect is, any automated equalization should be saved for addressing problems that placement & treatments cannot solve.

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post #3037 of 3183 Old 12-03-2019, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by SJHT View Post
What’s the feeling about room treatments when using a MP50? If so, which ones make the most sense (e.g. absorbers, bass traps, etc.). I know RP is designed to use in normal living spaces, but wanted to get any feedback. Thanks. SJ
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The goal shouldn't be to get rid of all the effects of the room but instead to use listener preference to address the unwanted, audible colourations that the room is adding. Note the qualifiers. If you can't hear a problem, don't waste time addressing it. If you like what certain reflections are doing (wider soundstage, greater envelopment), then don't get rid of them. To that end, do the free stuff first: placement (subs, speakers, listeners). Doesn't cost anything to move those things around (to whatever extent you can). For problems that cannot be solved via placement, use room treatments. Finally, the room correction in your MP50 should be the finishing touch (voicing the frequency response to your personal preference). As powerful as RoomPerfect is, any automated equalization should be saved for addressing problems that placement & treatments cannot solve.
Just to add to what @sdurani says here, you want the minimal amount of room treatment that resolves problems that can't be solved via placement with the objective of retaining as live a room as possible.

You don't want to kill the room.
.
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post #3038 of 3183 Old 12-03-2019, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by SJHT View Post
I agree, but see many arguments about that on another forum as it pertains to RP (some think it is designed for living spaces without room treatments). Wanted to get some real life feedback from folks. I'm looking at adding treatments and had a consultant put together a plan. However, they dislike ALL room correction. Thanks. SJ
I agree with the plan to optimize the room and not rely on REQ. The MP-50 sounds great without RoomPerfect and only using PEQ/Voicing. In a well-designed room, RoomPerfect or Trinnov may not be worth spending more over a SSP with Dirac Live.

There are a couple dealers over on AVForum (tagging @Rob Sinden ) that preach that it is best to deploy RoomPerfect in a room with no treatments. I find these guys extremely knowledgable but I disagree at times. They seem to take the Lyngdorf marketing spiel as gospel and don't have as much of an interest in interworkings of RoomPerfect as some of us. No RoomEQ can override the laws of physics.

I discussed this with @richmagnus (Seriously Cinema), he and @ARROW-AV are my go-to guys for anything Lyngdorf. Rich agreed that you do not need any treatments, but not that treatments should be completely eliminated. He did warn against overdamping the room and suggested folks with existing panels experiment with removing some.

Please describe your subwoofer plans and I can give you some detailed recommendations. The MP-50 offers differing methods of bass management which affect the operation of RoomPerfect (Aux/Boundary Woofers vs LFE).

Last edited by Marc Alexander; 12-03-2019 at 03:17 PM.
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post #3039 of 3183 Old 12-03-2019, 03:43 PM
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↑↑

Coincidentally, I am in the process of installing the MP-50 in my downstairs den which is untreated and quite reflective. I had planned to compare & analyze RoomEQ systems (RoomPerfect, Dirac Live, Trinnov Optimizer, perhaps XT32 and PEQ only) dating back to 2018. I feel that I finally have the requisite knowledge (HAA), experience and tools (SMAART). SMAART gives me the ability to monitor both individual mics as well as real-time spatial averaging. I'm using 4 mics/positions at the moment but plan utilize 8 ultimately (Dayton EMM-1 mics are out of stock until 12/13/19).

I have a list of time-consuming, ambitious projects to tackle. This is one won't be until 2020 I'm afraid.
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post #3040 of 3183 Old 12-03-2019, 03:57 PM
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So my current setup (MX160), is 7.4.2. Two JL Audio subs. The rest is KEF including Reference 205/2s. Right now, I have only 2 treatments at the first reflection points of the L & R speakers. Frankly, the sound is amazing and I can only register a 2DB increase in a couple of places running a bass Listening test. Was trying to increase a bit of clarity in the sound and started to wonder if additional treatments might help. Maybe covering all the first reflections of the LCR speakers. Didn’t want to go to far down this path if not needed and why I asked the question. Read the AVForum and saw all of those discussions. Does RP actually do something to eliminate reflections? Sorry for posting here but never got any feedback on the MX160 thread and saw the discussion at the other forum. Thanks for any suggestions. Was looking at what might work well in conjunction with RP vs against it! SJ
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post #3041 of 3183 Old 12-04-2019, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by SJHT View Post
So my current setup (MX160), is 7.4.2. Two JL Audio subs. The rest is KEF including Reference 205/2s. Right now, I have only 2 treatments at the first reflection points of the L & R speakers. Frankly, the sound is amazing and I can only register a 2DB increase in a couple of places running a bass Listening test. Was trying to increase a bit of clarity in the sound and started to wonder if additional treatments might help. Maybe covering all the first reflections of the LCR speakers. Didn’t want to go to far down this path if not needed and why I asked the question. Read the AVForum and saw all of those discussions. Does RP actually do something to eliminate reflections? Sorry for posting here but never got any feedback on the MX160 thread and saw the discussion at the other forum. Thanks for any suggestions. Was looking at what might work well in conjunction with RP vs against it! SJ
If you're going to absorb anything honestly, ceiling or floor reflections from your center primarily are first priority, second would be the contra-lateral reflections from your left/right speakers, the third I'd say diffusion on back wall. Notice I didn't mention anything about ipsilateral reflections from your L/R like you are treating currently. A good speaker with good sound power can actually use the first order reflections to expand the soundstage and improve the overall imaging actually. Your Kefs are well designed, you could use those reflections honestly. Try moving those panels you have to the contra-lateral reflection points (Left speaker's reflection point on the opposite(right) wall and vice-versa).
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post #3042 of 3183 Old 12-04-2019, 09:08 AM
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Thanks for the feedback. I guess if I had one thing to focus on improving would be center channel (especially dialog). Floor has a large rug covering the area between the front speakers and listening area, so maybe add some ceiling treatments. I have created a MX160 voicing that adds gain to dialog frequencies. That with boosting center channel DBs has really helped. Just looking at what else I might consider. SJ
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post #3043 of 3183 Old 12-04-2019, 09:52 AM
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The Fraunhofer Institute was researching acoustics for their new audio laboratory rooms, wondering whether carpeting was enough or whether additional absorption was needed at the first reflection points on the floor. 2" of absorption was enough to avoid the floor bounce cancellation. Measurements improved but listening tests told another story:
Quote:
3.1.4. Subjective room assessment:

Regarding the floor reflection, the audible influence by removing this with absorbers around the listener is negative – unnatural sounding. No normal room has an absorbent floor. The human brain seems to be used to this.
Indeed, the one early reflection our human hearing has always heard, even when we're not in a room (i.e., outdoors), is the floor bounce. No surprise things sound "unnatural" when it's not there.

https://www.iis.fraunhofer.de/conten...ms_AES7672.pdf
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post #3044 of 3183 Old 12-04-2019, 11:06 AM
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Just to add to what @sdurani says here, you want the minimal amount of room treatment that resolves problems that can't be solved via placement with the objective of retaining as live a room as possible.

You don't want to kill the room.
.
And this, to me, is sort of surprising. I thought I would have a lot more work to do with my basement because I can clap or even snap my fingers and hear some crazy long reverb/echo times (I easily notice it decaying). But, I honestly love the way the room sounds. Only problem is, and I don't know how true this is, but it feels like this property hurts me more than helps as the decibel levels go up. Almost like the room...saturates?...faster; I don't really know how to explain it. But, if I had to kill off the sound-staging I get in there for volume, then I would chose what I have over louder with less enveloping 2-channel!

I could've sworn listening yesterday there was an acoustic guitar to my right on the side-wall.

Anyway...sorry for the O.T. -- just, I've had this system in a few different configurations (and two rooms) now and I can for one easily say, without reserve, that the room and position make so much more difference in what the gear ends up sounding like! I always "knew" this...but to really appreciate it is something else.
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post #3045 of 3183 Old 12-04-2019, 11:33 AM
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So my current setup (MX160), is 7.4.2. Two JL Audio subs. The rest is KEF including Reference 205/2s. Right now, I have only 2 treatments at the first reflection points of the L & R speakers. Frankly, the sound is amazing and I can only register a 2DB increase in a couple of places running a bass Listening test. Was trying to increase a bit of clarity in the sound and started to wonder if additional treatments might help. Maybe covering all the first reflections of the LCR speakers. Didn’t want to go to far down this path if not needed and why I asked the question. Read the AVForum and saw all of those discussions. Does RP actually do something to eliminate reflections? Sorry for posting here but never got any feedback on the MX160 thread and saw the discussion at the other forum. Thanks for any suggestions. Was looking at what might work well in conjunction with RP vs against it! SJ
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If you're going to absorb anything honestly, ceiling or floor reflections from your center primarily are first priority, second would be the contra-lateral reflections from your left/right speakers, the third I'd say diffusion on back wall. Notice I didn't mention anything about ipsilateral reflections from your L/R like you are treating currently. A good speaker with good sound power can actually use the first order reflections to expand the soundstage and improve the overall imaging actually. Your Kefs are well designed, you could use those reflections honestly. Try moving those panels you have to the contra-lateral reflection points (Left speaker's reflection point on the opposite(right) wall and vice-versa).
And just to add to what @beastaudio says here, if you have not already done so I recommend first of all removing those 2 treatments entirely and evalulate the audio performance without any treatment whatsoever.

You only want to be adding room treatment that is necessary. In short, if it ain't broke don't fix it

Ascertain what (if any) are the problems with your untreated room.

Once you have evaluated this you have your reference baseline.

If there are significant issues after running RoomPerfect then firstly see if you can resolve these via altering placement / positioning.

Only in the event that neither RoomPerfect nor placement / positioning resolve the issue(s) should you then try using treatment to fix the problem(s).

As previously mentioned, with RoomPerfect you want to retain as live a room as possible
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post #3046 of 3183 Old 12-04-2019, 12:37 PM
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Thanks everyone for the feedback!
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post #3047 of 3183 Old 12-04-2019, 03:00 PM
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Thanks everyone for the feedback!
I am running the new MP60 in a treated dedicated theater and can tell you that there has been a marked improvement with RP and would work even better if I could remove the paneling, but cannot as it is a permanent part of the room. I did not treat the ceiling or floor and sit about 10ft from the screen in the front row. The center channel dialogue was actually the reason I ended up going with the Lyngdorf piece because of the natural timbre the DSP offered. Despite this, and even after some custom voicing, there are occasions where I employ a compressor and a high pass EQ to finish the sound, but that may not be the lengths you are willing to go to. This is done further down in the audio chain. Having lived with DIRAC Live the past 4 years, I can tell you the same problems with the center existed for me which points to my speakers as the source of the problem. RC is just a way to dial in the sound once everything else has been addressed first and adding more room treatments will not achieve what you are seeking in your case.
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post #3048 of 3183 Old 12-05-2019, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by SJHT View Post
I agree, but see many arguments about that on another forum as it pertains to RP (some think it is designed for living spaces without room treatments). Wanted to get some real life feedback from folks. I'm looking at adding treatments and had a consultant put together a plan. However, they dislike ALL room correction. Thanks. SJ
I bought a substantial amount of room treatments from GIK. Absorption, diffusion, bass traps, et all. Treated first and second reflection points, bass traps in the corners, front wall, etc etc. At first, it sucked the life out of the room. I have since continued to move panels, measure with REW, rinse and repeat. Granted, all rooms and gear are different; but, in my situation, it was a complete waste of money. I am down to a couple of panels but those will probably come out too. I found running four subs, speakers with great directivity, combined with Dirac Live corrected to 200hz to be the best solution. The room is lively, but not bright or harsh and the bass is kept tight without bloat. Multiple subs and good speakers are where I would spend the money with RC to wrap it all up nicely. What is really eye opening is removing bass traps and other treatments and seeing a net effect of absolutely zero in REW. The scow my wife gave me when all those treatments showed up was right all along.
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post #3049 of 3183 Old 12-05-2019, 08:05 AM
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Three things that are detrimental to dialog intelligibility - very early reflections (~1ms delay), slap echo and boundary loading. All are easily cured. Imagine the center speaker emitting a 90-140 cone of sound. Don't put any object near the speaker, that could interfere with the 'cone' - speaker deep in a shelf etc. Also problematic are reflections that have less than 1m path length difference from the direct sound. Couple examples: large table, seats against the back wall, reflection from console (the usual Yamaha ns10-s mounted on console bridge things... Now imagine that some people have that kind of working environment..)
Slap echo is easily heard and seen on ETC curve. Have someone clap/snap fingers/talk near the speaker location and listen - usually bare parallel walls are the culprit in the front-back direction. Use anything to break up the periodic reflections - bookcases are effective, no need for room 'treatments'.
Room eq solutions are adequate to deal with boundary loading. Usually wall mounted speakers have a peak (and null) near 200-400Hz (depending on distance), that makes dialogue muddy/chesty sounding. Some auto-eq solutions have trouble with bringing down the first large peak.
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post #3050 of 3183 Old 12-05-2019, 04:31 PM
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Would like to get some feedback on how my FLR speakers should be setup in RP (e.g. Size, Crossover, Natural Roll-off, gain, etc.). Speaker info:

Front L/R Specs:

Frequency Response : (@ 15° horizontally off axis ± 3dB) 45Hz - 60kHz Crossover Frequencies : 400Hz, 2.3kHz Amplifier Requirements : 50 - 300W Sensitivity : (2.83V / 1m) 90dB Maximum Output : 115dB Impedance : 8Ω (3.2Ω min ) Bass Extension : 35Hz (-6dB)

Front C:
Frequency Response : (@ 15° horizontally off axis ± 3dB) 65Hz - 60kHz Crossover Frequencies : 400Hz, 2.3kHz Amplifier Requirements : 50 - 200W Sensitivity : (2.83V / 1m) 89dB Maximum Output : 113dB Impedance : 8Ω (3.2Ω min) Bass Extension : 50Hz (-6dB)

The LF area of each L and R speaker can be physically adjusted by 2dB and the HF area can be adjusted +.75, 0, -.75,-1.5. Assume I should leave everything on the physical speaker in the flat (0) position and not use this capability.

The Center channel speaker can also be physically adjusted for LF: flat or a -3dB dip at 300Hz, HF: Flat or +.75dB (2Hz-20Khz). Again, assume leave everything at 0/Flat….

The L/R speakers are at the side walls (flanking screen). Two JL Audio subs next to each LR speaker. Subs defined as L/R which covers also LFE. The front speaker is in a cabinet, but nothing is in between the speaker and listening position. Today I have these defined as LR: Custom, Bass cutoff:63, Gain:0, Yes on use natural roll-off, C: Custom, Bass cutoff, 80, Use natural roll-off YES, Sub L (and R): Speaker size: 125Hz, Gain 0

Appreciate any feedback! Thanks. SJ
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post #3051 of 3183 Old 12-06-2019, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJHT View Post
So my current setup (MX160), is 7.4.2. Two JL Audio subs. The rest is KEF including Reference 205/2s. Right now, I have only 2 treatments at the first reflection points of the L & R speakers. Frankly, the sound is amazing and I can only register a 2DB increase in a couple of places running a bass Listening test. Was trying to increase a bit of clarity in the sound and started to wonder if additional treatments might help. Maybe covering all the first reflections of the LCR speakers. Didn’t want to go to far down this path if not needed and why I asked the question. Read the AVForum and saw all of those discussions. Does RP actually do something to eliminate reflections? Sorry for posting here but never got any feedback on the MX160 thread and saw the discussion at the other forum. Thanks for any suggestions. Was looking at what might work well in conjunction with RP vs against it! SJ
Backstory:
Spoiler!

You've gotten great advice! I suspect many owners of high-end brands are enamored by the electronics and may not even consider much of the science.

I rebuilt a pair of KEF Q-series towers (found at an estate sale under $100) for my son's room and I noticed the same with my friend's Reference Twos. The tweeter/Uni-Q is well below ear-level. Tilting the speakers so they are angled at or slightly above MLP ear-level should help with vertical reflections. You could try using stands to raise to ear level but tilting is probably better. Same thing with toe. Have you already experimented with toeing in the left & right mains.

My advice is to turn of RoomPerfect and optimize placement, toe & tilt, and even your seating position. I do believe it is important to treat the first reflections (horizontal and vertical). I would also treat the rear wall personally. But since RoomPerfect seems to work best with fewer treatments you may not want to. I also recommend you try phantom by disengaging the center channel.

The last thing I think you shoud try (you will need to run RoomPerfect) is to place the front speakers against the wall and not into the room. This eliminates SBIR and is actually the recommended/preferrable positioning (for RoomPerfect).

RoomPerfect also recommends placing subs/boundary woofers in the front corners. I believe this recommendation is one intended to maximize effeciency. Since you have plenty of wooferage, I recommend the ¼ & ¾ width positions and as close to the walls as practical (I would face them towards the corners. Don't place the subs based on the positioning of the main speakers.
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post #3052 of 3183 Old 12-06-2019, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Backstory:
Spoiler!

You've gotten great advice! I suspect many owners of high-end brands are enamored by the electronics and may not even consider much of the science.

I rebuilt a pair of KEF Q-series towers (found at an estate sale under $100) for my son's room and I noticed the same with my friend's Reference Twos. The tweeter/Uni-Q is well below ear-level. Tilting the speakers so they are angled at or slightly above MLP ear-level should help with vertical reflections. You could try using stands to raise to ear level but tilting is probably better. Same thing with toe. Have you already experimented with toeing in the left & right mains.

My advice is to turn of RoomPerfect and optimize placement, toe & tilt, and even your seating position. I do believe it is important to treat the first reflections (horizontal and vertical). I would also treat the rear wall personally. But since RoomPerfect seems to work best with fewer treatments you may not want to. I also recommend you try phantom by disengaging the center channel.

The last thing I think you shoud try (you will need to run RoomPerfect) is to place the front speakers against the wall and not into the room. This eliminates SBIR and is actually the recommended/preferrable positioning (for RoomPerfect).

RoomPerfect also recommends placing subs/boundary woofers in the front corners. I believe this recommendation is one intended to maximize effeciency. Since you have plenty of wooferage, I recommend the ¼ & ¾ width positions and as close to the walls as practical (I would face them towards the corners. Don't place the subs based on the positioning of the main speakers.
Thanks Marc for the advice! The LR speakers tweeters are at ear level. However, the center is not. I was thinking of tilting the center which is lower (in a cabinet) and seems like you would agree with this. I'm also going to experiment with different cross over frequencies. I have the detailed specs from KEF for each model (Reference speakers give you a personal signed copy of the specs by someone at the factory showing the detailed roll-off, etc.). I will start with that and maybe figure out how to use REW. I may stop using the natural roll-off and try some other combos. Dont' get me wrong, the sound field is very good especially for music. Just always looking for a bit more. I also have always run RP without my screen down. When the screen is up, there is a window (with honeycomb shades) behind. I'm going to try lowering it before RP as this also maybe changing things a little bit in the room. Time for some more experimenting! SJ
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post #3053 of 3183 Old 12-06-2019, 03:55 PM
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Notice I didn't mention anything about ipsilateral reflections from your L/R like you are treating currently. A good speaker with good sound power can actually use the first order reflections to expand the soundstage and improve the overall imaging actually. Your Kefs are well designed, you could use those reflections honestly. Try moving those panels you have to the contra-lateral reflection points (Left speaker's reflection point on the opposite(right) wall and vice-versa).
Great point! I never really thought about this. Mirage explicitly states to not treat 1st reflections. Positioning the acoustics panels to deal with the contralateral reflections rather than the ipsilateral could benefit @SJHT . Perhaps it could benefit others utilizing RoomPerfect (especially with narrow rooms)? You've really got me thinking now.
@SJHT do you mind sharing full room/speaker/MLP dimensions? Are your subwoofer are configured as aux 1 & 2 or LFE?
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post #3054 of 3183 Old 12-06-2019, 04:07 PM
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I was thinking of tilting the center which is lower (in a t) and seems like you would agree with this.
1) I do not like utilizing the natural rolloff setting.
2) Did you get the DSP delay values from JL to add to your measurement (distance from the MLP to the wall behond the sub)?
3) The center may always be a compromise. I strongly recommend trying phantom.

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post #3055 of 3183 Old 12-06-2019, 05:07 PM
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Would like to get some feedback on how my FLR speakers should be setup in RP (e.g. Size, Crossover, Natural Roll-off, gain, etc.). Speaker info:

Front L/R Specs:

Frequency Response : (@ 15° horizontally off axis ± 3dB) 45Hz - 60kHz Crossover Frequencies : 400Hz, 2.3kHz Amplifier Requirements : 50 - 300W Sensitivity : (2.83V / 1m) 90dB Maximum Output : 115dB Impedance : 8Ω (3.2Ω min ) Bass Extension : 35Hz (-6dB)

Front C:
Frequency Response : (@ 15° horizontally off axis ± 3dB) 65Hz - 60kHz Crossover Frequencies : 400Hz, 2.3kHz Amplifier Requirements : 50 - 200W Sensitivity : (2.83V / 1m) 89dB Maximum Output : 113dB Impedance : 8Ω (3.2Ω min) Bass Extension : 50Hz (-6dB)

The LF area of each L and R speaker can be physically adjusted by 2dB and the HF area can be adjusted +.75, 0, -.75,-1.5. Assume I should leave everything on the physical speaker in the flat (0) position and not use this capability.

The Center channel speaker can also be physically adjusted for LF: flat or a -3dB dip at 300Hz, HF: Flat or +.75dB (2Hz-20Khz). Again, assume leave everything at 0/Flat….

The L/R speakers are at the side walls (flanking screen). Two JL Audio subs next to each LR speaker. Subs defined as L/R which covers also LFE. The front speaker is in a cabinet, but nothing is in between the speaker and listening position. Today I have these defined as LR: Custom, Bass cutoff:63, Gain:0, Yes on use natural roll-off, C: Custom, Bass cutoff, 80, Use natural roll-off YES, Sub L (and R): Speaker size: 125Hz, Gain 0

Appreciate any feedback! Thanks. SJ
Having REW will be beneficial to you (especially for choosong the xover freqencies). A UMIK-1 or UMM-6 USB mic are easy plug-&-play options. One could even utilize the RoomPerfect mic with a Scarlett Solo. I have used it successfully. You would have to confirm that the mic can accept +48V phantom power. My Clio sends +24V and if I recall correctly I measured the MP-50 at 9V. 9V-48V is a typical range, however some are limited to 9V-24V.

It is usually best to set the xover at twice the f3 (-3dB) frequency. I'd start at 90Hz and move up I'm actually set to 125Hz for all speakers. I like to maintain an identical xover frequency across the front stage (at a minimum) for smooth panning. Your panning is probably wonky since the center is lower than the mains (another reason to utilize phantom).

Can you post pictures of your speaker and sub locations. I'd like to see these cabinets.
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post #3056 of 3183 Old 12-07-2019, 01:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJHT View Post
Would like to get some feedback on how my FLR speakers should be setup in RP (e.g. Size, Crossover, Natural Roll-off, gain, etc.). Speaker info:

Front L/R Specs:

Frequency Response : (@ 15° horizontally off axis ± 3dB) 45Hz - 60kHz Crossover Frequencies : 400Hz, 2.3kHz Amplifier Requirements : 50 - 300W Sensitivity : (2.83V / 1m) 90dB Maximum Output : 115dB Impedance : 8Ω (3.2Ω min ) Bass Extension : 35Hz (-6dB)

Front C:
Frequency Response : (@ 15° horizontally off axis ± 3dB) 65Hz - 60kHz Crossover Frequencies : 400Hz, 2.3kHz Amplifier Requirements : 50 - 200W Sensitivity : (2.83V / 1m) 89dB Maximum Output : 113dB Impedance : 8Ω (3.2Ω min) Bass Extension : 50Hz (-6dB)

The LF area of each L and R speaker can be physically adjusted by 2dB and the HF area can be adjusted +.75, 0, -.75,-1.5. Assume I should leave everything on the physical speaker in the flat (0) position and not use this capability.

The Center channel speaker can also be physically adjusted for LF: flat or a -3dB dip at 300Hz, HF: Flat or +.75dB (2Hz-20Khz). Again, assume leave everything at 0/Flat….

The L/R speakers are at the side walls (flanking screen). Two JL Audio subs next to each LR speaker. Subs defined as L/R which covers also LFE. The front speaker is in a cabinet, but nothing is in between the speaker and listening position. Today I have these defined as LR: Custom, Bass cutoff:63, Gain:0, Yes on use natural roll-off, C: Custom, Bass cutoff, 80, Use natural roll-off YES, Sub L (and R): Speaker size: 125Hz, Gain 0

Appreciate any feedback! Thanks. SJ
Keep in mind that natural roll off for Lyngdorf means "enhanced bass" so that the frequencies below your crossover are being directed at your speakers as well as the subs. For music this is beneficial in creating a fuller soundstage, but for movies this often results in overdriving your speakers in trying to reproduce the notes not intended for that channel originally. Also bear in mind that while your JL subs can reach higher frequencies, the higher your crossover is the more localized the sound becomes. For most theaters a 50-60Hz crossover seems to be the sweet spot, but taking actual measurements with REW is needed to see how that looks and listening to find out your preference will be the ultimate deciding factor. In a mixed use setting (music & cinema) you may want to consider having two different presets based on your settings. Finally with regard to a phantom center, bear in mind that speaker placement becomes even more critical as too far a distance is detrimental to the sound. Also of consideration in a phantom setup is the issue of using Neural:X which already has a wide center spread to begin with and how a lack of center channel will make things (especially dialogue) sound.
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post #3057 of 3183 Old 12-07-2019, 06:16 AM
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I downloaded REW and purchased a miniDSP UMIK-1. Anyone with tower speakers and a non-transparent screen is likely going to have their center channel a bit lower. Always some trade-offs. I don’t believe there is a way to have two different speaker presets with crossover, etc. as you would have to have two different RP setups. Likely will focus on movies which is the primary use of the space and do some voicing and other tweaks for music. Got plenty of great feedback and lots of things to try. You guys likely saved me a lot of $$s on not purchasing a lot of acoustic treatments! Thanks everyone for the help. SJ
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post #3058 of 3183 Old 12-07-2019, 09:34 AM
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Thanks Marc for the advice! The LR speakers tweeters are at ear level. However, the center is not. I was thinking of tilting the center which is lower (in a cabinet) and seems like you would agree with this. I'm also going to experiment with different cross over frequencies. I have the detailed specs from KEF for each model (Reference speakers give you a personal signed copy of the specs by someone at the factory showing the detailed roll-off, etc.). I will start with that and maybe figure out how to use REW. I may stop using the natural roll-off and try some other combos. Dont' get me wrong, the sound field is very good especially for music. Just always looking for a bit more. I also have always run RP without my screen down. When the screen is up, there is a window (with honeycomb shades) behind. I'm going to try lowering it before RP as this also maybe changing things a little bit in the room. Time for some more experimenting! SJ


I have the same front three speakers (but no RP ) but have tilted my center channel up slightly and have never had any issues which I can’t say for my other two systems.


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Main Kef: Reference 205/2 & 202/2c, Surrounds: Kef XQ40, Velodyne Optimum 12, Integra DHC 80.3, Ayre K-5xeMP, Oppo BDP-103, Parasound Halo A31, ATI AT528nc. Second B&W: 685 (3), CCM618, Def Tech Powerfield 1500, Onkyo TX-NR1008, Zone 2 Klipsch AW650.
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post #3059 of 3183 Old 12-07-2019, 10:26 AM
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I have the same front three speakers (but no RP ) but have tilted my center channel up slightly and have never had any issues which I can’t say for my other two systems.


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Just got through doing that. Haven’t even rerun RP and it’s amazing the difference. Crazy I never did that.
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post #3060 of 3183 Old 12-09-2019, 08:49 AM
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Hi All.

Have come across the Crowson Actuator thread recently and am intrigued by the possibilities they might offer.

My current setup is 7.2.4 with both subs connected via a splitter to the LFE channel and then into a miniDSP 2x4HD to get the best blend between the two subs (3.2ms delay on one of the subs). So the 4 aux channels on the MP-50 are not in use.

My question is as follows. Is there any way to use the aux channels to send a signal into the Crowsons without applying the Room Perfect room correction that is going to the existing channels?

If not can any of you see a way to get a signal without room correction to the Crowsons while having room correction engaged on the speakers?

The only way I have come across so far is to bypass the Lyngdorf completely as far as the Crowsons are concerned and use the sub out on the Oppo 103D to feed the Crowsons but then I lose the ability to change the level of the Crowsons by adjusting the MV control of the MP-50.

Thanks in advance
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