Lyngdorf MP-50 | 12 Channel AV Processor; 9.1.6 with matrixed Wides and Top Middles - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 3012 Old 04-12-2017, 03:30 AM
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Here's the owners Manual: LYNGDORF MP-50 OWNER'S MANUAL
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post #62 of 3012 Old 04-12-2017, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post
If it had been able to do 9.4.4 then i would definitely stretch the green.
Further to doing 7.4.4 but with widths instead of back surrounds, you can in fact actually also do 9.4.4, but with up to 2 separate subwoofer channels, not 4 separate ones

In other words, you can do 9.4.4 with two pairs of subwoofers, with each pair of subwoofers configured as Front Left Subwoofer and Front Right Subwoofer, where the system would be outputting stereo subwoofers, where you have the option of feeding the low frequency audio information from the left side of the room to the 'Front Left Subwoofer' pair of subwoofers and the low frequency audio information from the right side of the room to the 'Front Right Subwoofer' pair of subwoofers. This would be in addition to the LFE audio channel information. This would also leave 1 matrixed audio channel spare.

Where the breakdown of this would be 7.1.4 discrete plus 2.1.0 matrixed audio channels, doubling up with respect to the subwoofers (i.e. 2 subwoofers on each of 2 channels, totalling 4 subwoofers, but 'using up' only 1 discrete plus 1 matrixed audio channels) totalling 9.4.4
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post #63 of 3012 Old 04-12-2017, 09:34 AM
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OK well thank you ARROW AV for your comments.

I am an EE and seriously think that calling Room Perfect the best "Room Correction technology out there" is an opinion.

I find interesting that all the major movie studio use DATASAT for recording their soundtrack

"Today, over 30,000 cinemas worldwide support Datasat Digital Sound for the truest and most natural cinema sound reproduction." DATASAT uses DIRAC as their room EQ

http://www.datasatdigital.com/cinema...timization.php

In the pro world Room Perfect is non existent!

This says it all:

"Psychoacoustics. It conjures up visions of Sigmund Freud but it's really just about how we all perceive sound. The reality is that, like all our senses, there are few hard and fast truths.
We are interpreting our external experiences. Each of us will interpret the same event slightly different. If Einstein is to be believed, we all inhabit our own time"

http://www.datasatdigital.com/consum...fect-sound.php


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post #64 of 3012 Old 04-12-2017, 09:35 AM
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The best one is this: In the end, there's no such thing as the perfect sound. There's only the sound we individually like to hear.

So to each their own
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post #65 of 3012 Old 04-12-2017, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
you can in fact actually also do 9.4.4
Are you sure that the MP-50 can render Atmos to 13 speaker locations (9 floor, 4 height)?

Sanjay
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post #66 of 3012 Old 04-12-2017, 09:45 AM
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Thanks for the link to the manual.
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post #67 of 3012 Old 04-12-2017, 10:06 AM
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OK well thank you ARROW AV for your comments.
You are most welcome and have asked some excellent questions so more than happy to help

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I... seriously think that calling Room Perfect the best "Room Correction technology out there" is an opinion.
We absolutely agree Which is why we made a particular point of stating: "in our opinion"

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I find interesting that all the major movie studio use DATASAT for recording their soundtrack

"Today, over 30,000 cinemas worldwide support Datasat Digital Sound for the truest and most natural cinema sound reproduction." DATASAT uses DIRAC as their room EQ

http://www.datasatdigital.com/cinema...timization.php

In the pro world Room Perfect is non existent!
Firstly, RoomPerfect was specifically developed by Steinway Lyngdorf for the Home Theater/Cinema market and only this market, with the objective being to produce the absolute ultimate in Room Correction for the home environment. So it is not at all surprising that "In the pro world Room Perfect is non existent!" It was never designed to be used in those applications and we don't even know whether you would be permitted to do so.

Furthermore, Home/Domestic AV and Commercial/Professional AV are completely different markets with very different requirements, circumstances, and environments. High-end Home Theater/Cinema is not about achieving audio performance 'as good as' Commercial/Professional Cinemas. It's about surpassing it and significantly so. For starters, the change in acoustic properties of a large sized room containing 300 cinema seats ranges massively according to how many people are seated in the room, where an empty room versus the same room but containing 300 people has totally different acoustics and so it is impossible to achieve an optimal room correction one-shoe-fits-all that delivers optimal audio performance in all instances irrespective of how many people are filling the room. For this reason alone, what particular brands of Room Correction are or are not used in Commercial/Professional Cinemas is in fact irrelevant with respect to Home Theater/Cinema. It's comparing apples-with-oranges.

And so, as far as Home/Domestic AV is concerned, we are of the opinion that RoomPerfect is currently the best there is. And this is all things considered, including the fact that it's easy-peasy to operate. In fact, it's so simple that customers can do it themselves if they wish. It's automated and the results are absolutely bang-on perfectly accurate every time, as has been the case in all instances without exception that we have used it to date.

But like we said, please kindly note that this is purely our opinion, and so be taken as such; although not entirely subjective, given the before and after measurements speak for themselves

That said, some may prefer another Room Correction products. We happen to like this one. And we like it a lot
.
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post #68 of 3012 Old 04-12-2017, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Are you sure that the MP-50 can render Atmos to 13 speaker locations (9 floor, 4 height)?
You can do this speaker configuration:

● Left
● Center
● Right
Wide Left
Wide Right
● Surround Left
● Surround Right
● Back Surround Left
● Back Surround Right
● Top/Ceiling Front Left
● Top/Ceiling Front Right
● Top/Ceiling Back Left
● Top/Ceiling Back Right
● Subwoofer Front Left x 2
Subwoofer Front Right x 2


= 9.4.4

Where the items in BLACK use up all 12 discrete audio channels, and the items highlighted in BLUE use the auxiliary/matrixed audio channels, which use up 3 out of the total of 4 auxiliary/matrixed audio channels that are available. So the grand total is 15 audio channels, where the grand total available is 16. You would have one auxiliary/matrixed audio channel spare left available

It is worth noting that, unlike the vast majority of other AV processors, with respect to the Lyngdorf MP-50 audio information is mapped to the Width Channels in all instances, even when there is no width channel support natively and also when DSU upscaler is used, which does not create any audio information for the width channels. Where the Lyngdorf MP-50 creates the new information for the width channels via matrixing (which is the best way of doing it) and so the width speakers 'use up' the auxiliary/matrixed audio channels, not the discrete audio channels. Similarly, any and all additional subwoofers further to the first one also 'use up' the auxiliary/matrixed audio channels, not the discrete audio channels. And the same applies with respect to the Top Middle Left and Right audio channels.
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post #69 of 3012 Old 04-12-2017, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Where the items in BLACK use up all 12 discrete audio channels, and the items highlighted in BLUE use the auxiliary/matrixed audio channels...
Ah, OK: 7 floor + 4 heights + matrixed wides. Would be interesting to hear what comes out of those wides.
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post #70 of 3012 Old 04-12-2017, 11:08 AM
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Ah, OK: 7 floor + 4 heights + matrixed wides. Would be interesting to hear what comes out of those wides.
Bingo! You got it!

We actually already know precisely "what comes out of those wides", namely it is the matrixed information created from taking the average of the corresponding left/right and surround speaker audio channels. In other words, the Lyngdorf MP-50 analyzes the audio information being outputted within the Front Left and Left Surround audio channels and creates the new audio information for the Left Wide audio channel from these. The same applies to the right-hand side.

The R&D team at Steinway Lyngdorf tried all the methods of remapping/creating new audio information to the width speaker channels and went with the option that delivers the best audio performance. And this is what they decided upon.

But why we're particularly excited about this is because audio will be emanating from the width speakers ALL THE TIME, and optimally too, as opposed to conventionally where they will be remaining absolutely silent the majority of the time due to zero support via the relevant audio upmixers plus lousy support with respect to native content. There's even whole threads on the very subject of how lousy is the support of native content with respect to the width channels.

Also, we should add that this applies to both movies and music. Our favourite is playing stereo and/or 5.1 music upscaled to AURO-2D and using the width channels. It's awesome.

Incidentally, by creating the new audio information in this manner you don't need to have ludicrous numbers of discrete audio channels to achieve optimum audio configuration and performance. Where for example, the Lyngdorf MP-50's 'big brother' namely the Steinway P200 will actually do 22 discrete audio channels, but you will typically never need or in fact want to use all of those.
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post #71 of 3012 Old 04-12-2017, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
We actually already know precisely "what comes out of those wides", namely it is the matrixed information created from taking the average of the corresponding left/right and surround speaker audio channels.
Not sure what you mean by "taking the average" but the approach makes sense, since those sounds would have phantom imaged at those locations anyway. Sending that info to the wides maintains the intended directionality but makes the imaging more stable, since you're replacing phantom images with hard sources (wides).
Quote:
The R&D team at Steinway Lyngdorf tried all the methods of remapping/creating new audio information to the width speaker channels and went with the option that delivers the best audio performance.
DTS Neural:X upmixing feeds the wides using a similar technique. It's a pretty common approach, basically extracting a centre output from two adjacent channels. Implementation details vary (e.g., is the extracted info cancelled from the adjacent channels or not).
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post #72 of 3012 Old 04-12-2017, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Not sure what you mean by "taking the average" but the approach makes sense, since those sounds would have phantom imaged at those locations anyway. Sending that info to the wides maintains the intended directionality but makes the imaging more stable, since you're replacing phantom images with hard sources (wides). DTS Neural:X upmixing feeds the wides using a similar technique. It's a pretty common approach, basically extracting a centre output from two adjacent channels. Implementation details vary (e.g., is the extracted info cancelled from the adjacent channels or not).
Precisely, but also not quite Phantom imaging follows a straight line not a curve, whereas positioning the wides (correctly) creates a circular arc from the front left/right and corresponding surround speakers. This contributes towards achieving the perfect 360 degree circle with respect to your X-Y axis audio

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DTS Neural:X upmixing feeds the wides using a similar technique. It's a pretty common approach, basically extracting a centre output from two adjacent channels. Implementation details vary (e.g., is the extracted info cancelled from the adjacent channels or not).
Correct. But it is our understanding that the algorithms used to create the new information will vary; and hence, to a degree, so will how good is the resultant audio performance.
.
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post #73 of 3012 Old 04-12-2017, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Not sure what you mean by "taking the average" but the approach makes sense, since those sounds would have phantom imaged at those locations anyway. Sending that info to the wides maintains the intended directionality but makes the imaging more stable, since you're replacing phantom images with hard sources (wides). DTS Neural:X upmixing feeds the wides using a similar technique. It's a pretty common approach, basically extracting a centre output from two adjacent channels. Implementation details vary (e.g., is the extracted info cancelled from the adjacent channels or not).
How about avr's that have "DSX" wides,how does it work in comparison to the Lyngdorf mp-50 ?

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post #74 of 3012 Old 04-12-2017, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
... audio will be emanating from the width speakers ALL THE TIME...
Just to be clear, is this the case with Atmos- and DTS:X-encoded soundtracks as well as with their upmixers?
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post #75 of 3012 Old 04-12-2017, 12:32 PM
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How about avr's that have "DSX" wides,how does it work in comparison to the Lyngdorf mp-50 ?
DSX is room simulation, like Yamaha DSP modes or Auro-Matic, generating reverb and early reflections (that weren't in the recording) to give the impression of being in a larger space. When DSX first came out, Audyssey mentioned that they used their knowledge of concert hall acoustics to simulate side wall & proscenium reflections to feed DSX wides & heights (respectively). By comparison, DTS extracts common info from the fronts & sides to feed Neo:X and Neural:X wides. Don't know for sure what Lyngdorf does, but from the discussion I'm guessing it is closer to the latter (extraction); i.e., steering sounds that are in the recording rather than generating "new" sounds.

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post #76 of 3012 Old 04-12-2017, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
audio will be emanating from the width speakers ALL THE TIME...
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
just to be clear, is this the case with atmos- and dts:x-encoded soundtracks as well as with their upmixers?
Yes
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post #77 of 3012 Old 04-12-2017, 12:43 PM
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Yes
Great, I'm really liking the MP-50's features.

Might you be able to answer the below questions?

1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
"...support for Dolby® Atmos, DTS:X and Auro-3D®..."

Which of these are included in MSRP?

2)
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Does anyone know if RoomPerfect is capable of fully integrating subs and mains in an automated process, which to my knowledge no RC does (except perhaps JBL's BassQ)?

By that I mean, if you have multiple subs, the RC will adjust their levels and phase to give smooth response accounting for when they're all playing, and set the relative phase between subs and sats for optimum response in the XO region.

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post #78 of 3012 Old 04-12-2017, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
DSX is room simulation, like Yamaha DSP modes or Auro-Matic, generating reverb and early reflections (that weren't in the recording) to give the impression of being in a larger space. When DSX first came out, Audyssey mentioned that they used their knowledge of concert hall acoustics to simulate side wall & proscenium reflections to feed DSX wides & heights (respectively). By comparison, DTS extracts common info from the fronts & sides to feed Neo:X and Neural:X wides. Don't know for sure what Lyngdorf does, but from the discussion I'm guessing it is closer to the latter (extraction); i.e., steering sounds that are in the recording rather than generating "new" sounds.
Thanks!
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post #79 of 3012 Old 04-12-2017, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Phantom imaging follows a straight line not a curve, whereas positioning the wides (correctly) creates a circular arc from the front left/right and corresponding surround speakers. This contributes towards achieving the perfect 360 degree circle with respect to your X-Y axis audio
Right, hadn't thought of that, but it's another advantage of a hard source (speaker) vs a phantom image.

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post #80 of 3012 Old 04-12-2017, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Phantom imaging follows a straight line not a curve, whereas positioning the wides (correctly) creates a circular arc from the front left/right and corresponding surround speakers. This contributes towards achieving the perfect 360 degree circle with respect to your X-Y axis audio
I don't understand this statement.

As far as I know, there's no way to encode distance from the listening position (which is not the same as compensating for speaker distances with delays), so it's not possible to say whether the acoustic images are forming, or supposed to form, a line or a curve.

What *is* encoded is angles, and the point of wides is to fill the angular gap between the fronts and side surrounds.

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post #81 of 3012 Old 04-12-2017, 02:44 PM
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I don't understand this statement.
If you have two speakers in front of you, the phantom centre image will be on the same plane as the two speakers. If you have 3 speakers in front of you, the centre speaker can be delayed or physically moved back slightly so that the centre image is on a circular arc relative to the L/R speakers. You cannot similarly push back a phantom centre image. Apply that to wides vs a phantom image between the fronts & sides.
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post #82 of 3012 Old 04-12-2017, 02:56 PM
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Ah, got it, thanks.

Still, even with physical speakers, I suspect the physical constraints of locating speakers in the rectangular rooms mean that placing the wides such that they're on a circle with the mains and surrounds will be the exception rather than the rule.

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post #83 of 3012 Old 04-12-2017, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Y
Firstly, RoomPerfect was specifically developed by Steinway Lyngdorf for the Home Theater/Cinema market and only this market, with the objective being to produce the absolute ultimate in Room Correction for the home environment. So it is not at all surprising that "In the pro world Room Perfect is non existent!" It was never designed to be used in those applications and we don't even know whether you would be permitted to do so.
Well this puppy has it, albeit only 20 to 500hz...

http://www.krksys.com/krk-ergo.html
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post #84 of 3012 Old 04-12-2017, 03:56 PM
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Still, even with physical speakers, I suspect the physical constraints of locating speakers in the rectangular rooms mean that placing the wides such that they're on a circle with the mains and surrounds will be the exception rather than the rule.
True, but by the time you're done setting delays & levels, all your speakers will hopefully sound like they're on a circle around the main listening position. It's the exception rather than the rule to find a room full of speakers physically equidistant from the MLP.

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True, but by the time you're done setting delays & levels, all your speakers will hopefully sound like they're on a circle around the main listening position.

My hope would be that the soundfield on the soundtrack is properly reproduced.

I'm always a bit puzzled by mention of the supposedly ideal circular placement of speakers; have there been studies showing better reproduction, especially in the typical rectangular room?



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It's the exception rather than the rule to find a room full of speakers physically equidistant from the MLP.

I thought I said exactly that.

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post #86 of 3012 Old 04-12-2017, 10:16 PM
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My hope would be that the soundfield on the soundtrack is properly reproduced.

I'm always a bit puzzled by mention of the supposedly ideal circular placement of speakers; have there been studies showing better reproduction, especially in the typical rectangular room?
Yes. It yields optimal accurate acoustic imaging

If you have not read it already we highly reccomend this book: FLOYD TOOLE | SOUND REPRODUCTION: LOUDSPEAKERS AND ROOMS

Which you can purchase from AMAZON (discounted price) HERE: Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms

However, we could not have said this better than this fine gentleman:
Quote:
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...by the time you're done setting delays & levels, all your speakers will hopefully sound like they're on a circle around the main listening position.
Where ^^^^ should be your objective. You don't actually need to physically place all the speakers equidistant from the MLP in a precise circle with all the speakers toed-in such that they are all pointing directly at the MLP to attain the vast majority of the benefit of doing so. Where as it happens, this is where good Room Correction is invaluable, because it achieves precisely this ^^^^.
.
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post #87 of 3012 Old 04-14-2017, 10:10 PM
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Our shiny new LYNGDORF MP-50 AV PROCESSOR was delivered today!!!

Bundled inside the box we were delighted to find all of the following:

● Owner's Manual (printed hard copy)
● Remote Control
● Microphone & Microphone stand (for use with RoomPerfect Room Correction)
● XLR Cable
● Power Cable
● Rack mounting ears & accessories

Here's the unboxing:























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post #88 of 3012 Old 04-14-2017, 10:13 PM
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Our shiny new LYNGDORF MP-50 AV PROCESSOR was delivered today!!!

See HERE for the unboxing: The Official Lyngdorf MP-50 AV Processor Owner's Thread

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Last edited by ARROW-AV; 04-15-2017 at 02:16 AM.
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post #89 of 3012 Old 04-14-2017, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Great, I'm really liking the MP-50's features.

Might you be able to answer the below questions?

1) "...support for Dolby Atmos, DTS:X and Auro-3D..." Which of these are included in MSRP?

2) Does anyone know if RoomPerfect is capable of fully integrating subs and mains in an automated process, which to my knowledge no RC does (except perhaps JBL's BassQ)? By that I mean, if you have multiple subs, the RC will adjust their levels and phase to give smooth response accounting for when they're all playing, and set the relative phase between subs and sats for optimum response in the XO region.
At the present time both the Steinway P200 and Lyngdorf MP-50 come with both Dolby Atmos and Auro-3D plus all the respective upmixers asssociated with these. DTS:X plus its upmixer will be added shortly and made available via a simple firmware update. There's been some troubleshooting needed regarding the consumer DTS:X algorithm and Steinway Lyngdorf and Lyngdorf will only include it when they are happy it is ready. They are a bit perfectionist in this regard, which isn't a bad thing. And (in the UK and Europe) all of these are included in MSRP.

In answer to your question #2 , RoomPerfect does absolutely everything. And not only does it automatically fully integrate the subs in the manner you describe but also it supports up to FOUR independent subwoofers each of which will have their own individual calibration settings via RoomPerfect and hence will be outputting different audio each and every one accordingly. So, in short, yes, RoomPerfect automatically does what you are describing here. The resultant bass response, precision, and overall performance is nothing short of absolutely phenomenal. We have not come across anything else that does all of what RoomPerfect does to the same degree and quality.

Right, time to get this baby up and running!
.
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Last edited by ARROW-AV; 04-16-2017 at 09:40 AM.
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post #90 of 3012 Old 04-15-2017, 02:42 AM
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Behold it's majesty!!

Heard it a couple of weeks ago, very good - right up there with the best of them.
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