Lyngdorf MP-50 | 12 Channel AV Processor; 9.1.6 with matrixed Wides and Top Middles - Page 50 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1471 of 3062 Old 10-28-2017, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Is that because you're telling it you're adding a F or R, or it just assumes , and you could tell it it's just a generic additional sub?
You have the following choices for subs when selecting speakers:

LFE
Front L
Front R
Rear L
Rear R

When you add Front L, Front R is added automatically and vice-versa. If you delete Front R, Front L is deleted as well and vice-versa. Exact same scenario with Rear L & R.

I am requesting they add the ability to select Front R and Rear L subs (or even better, just Front & Rear). They definitely had stereo subs in mind when they implemented this.

Clear as mud yet?

How do you want to implement your subs? Perhaps a Y-splitter on the LFE is all you need. I am running 4 Seaton F18+ off of the LFE.
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post #1472 of 3062 Old 10-28-2017, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
This is now starting to sound more promising...
I would be more than happy to dump Auro 3D to get a proper working Neural X.

I installed everything needed for Auro 3D, VOG, extra amps etc etc... But I cant stand it for movies so I NEVER use it now.
So if we could have a choice which of the three we can implement on our gear, Im more than happy to dump one to get 2 good working versions.
All the sounds fields will be implemented and remedied. We won't have to give anything up (except dts Neo 6 which I never liked anyway). I believe legacy Dolby Pro-Logic II will be added as well.

If I was a MX160 owner, I would hope McIntosh waits for the next revision with DTS Neural properly operating before releasing the upgrade.
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post #1473 of 3062 Old 10-28-2017, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Since the MP-50 does not support Auro3D 13.1 REAR SURROUNDS are not utilized. My understanding is that Auro2D simply eliminates the height layer (at least D+M's implementation). I believe Datasat supports REAR SURROUNDS if VoG and Height Center are not utilized. I don't believe the MP-50 supports this...yet. It makes sense that REAR SURROUNDS are inactive with Auro-3D or 2D.
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Marc, with the Denon X7200WA for example, which is a 9-channel receiver that doesn't support Auro-3D 13.1, with respect to both Auro-3D and Auro-2D sound emanates from the back surrounds

And with respect to Auro-2D IMO its most useful feature is the ability to upscale to 7.1


.
With D&M models up to 2017 there are only two ways to get sound from rear surrounds:

1. In Auro 3D mode, using only 2 heights(ie front heights), or 7.1.2.

2. Using Auro 2D mode which disables all height, or 7.1.

PS: in native Auro, ONLY on 13.1 tracks.
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post #1474 of 3062 Old 10-28-2017, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
With D&M models up to 2017 there are only two ways to get sound from rear surrounds:

1. In Auro 3D mode, using only 2 heights(ie front heights), or 7.1.2.

2. Using Auro 2D mode which disables all height, or 7.1.

PS: in native Auro, ONLY on 13.1 tracks.
In which case am I right that with respect to Auro-2D being fed a stereo or 5.1 audio signal that audio should be emanating from the back surrounds?
.
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post #1475 of 3062 Old 10-28-2017, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
You have the following choices for subs when selecting speakers:

LFE
Front L
Front R
Rear L
Rear R

When you add Front L, Front R is added automatically and vice-versa. If you delete Front R, Front L is deleted as well and vice-versa. Exact same scenario with Rear L & R.

I am requesting they add the ability to select Front R and Rear L subs (or even better, just Front & Rear). They definitely had stereo subs in mind when they implemented this.

Clear as mud yet?

How do you want to implement your subs? Perhaps a Y-splitter on the LFE is all you need. I am running 4 Seaton F18+ off of the LFE.
My subs aren't equidistant so I wanted to use the MP-50 to time align them. It would be nice if you could use the Aux outputs for additional LFE subs.

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post #1476 of 3062 Old 10-28-2017, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
...Clear as mud yet?
Yes, at least that clear


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
How do you want to implement your subs? Perhaps a Y-splitter on the LFE is all you need. I am running 4 Seaton F18+ off of the LFE.
I have a front and a rear sub that I want both to receive LFE + redirected bass from all satellites; does the LFE choice do that?

Y-ing would work, but I'm hoping that if each gets their own processing channel the MP-50 will individualize their corrections to do something like SFM.



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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
IMO what would be best of all is to have BOTH the wides rendered AND being used properly all of the time... Which would be the case if you used Neural:X instead of DSU in combination with a speaker configuration wherein the wides are rendered as opposed to matrixed... after Lyngdorf fix the Neural:X functionality that is...

I thought rendering implied extracting encoded data from native Atmos or DTS:X soundtracks, vs. matrixing applied to upmixed soundtracks via DSU or DTS Neural:X, which would seem to be mutually exclusive.

Noah

Last edited by noah katz; 10-28-2017 at 02:44 PM.
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post #1477 of 3062 Old 10-28-2017, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
In which case am I right that with respect to Auro-2D being fed a stereo or 5.1 audio signal that audio should be emanating from the back surrounds?
.
Correct. At least on D&M.

And as i said you could get up to 7.1.2 from stereo(Auro 3D), which is many music enthusiasts favourite setting.

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post #1478 of 3062 Old 10-28-2017, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Yes, at least that clear

I thought rendering implied extracting encoded data from naive Atmos or DTS:X soundtracks, vs. matrixing applied to upmixed soundtracks via DSU or DTS Neural:X, which would seem to be mutually exclusive.
Neural:X renders to the wides as part of it's upmixing, DSU doesn't.
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post #1479 of 3062 Old 10-28-2017, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by duckymomo View Post
Neural:X renders to the wides as part of it's upmixing, DSU doesn't.

Ah, right.


So Arrow-AV, does your statement mean that the MP-50's matrixing for wides would never be used?


[QUOTE=ARROW-AV;55032928]IMO what would be best of all is to have BOTH the wides rendered AND being used properly all of the time... Which would be the case if you used Neural:X instead of DSU in combination with a speaker configuration wherein the wides are rendered as opposed to matrixed... after Lyngdorf fix the Neural:X functionality that is...

Noah
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post #1480 of 3062 Old 10-28-2017, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by duckymomo View Post
Neural:X renders to the wides as part of it's upmixing, DSU doesn't.
Precisely

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Ah, right. So Arrow-AV, does your statement mean that the MP-50's matrixing for wides would never be used?
Correct


Last edited by ARROW-AV; 10-28-2017 at 03:28 PM.
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post #1481 of 3062 Old 10-28-2017, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Correct. At least on D&M.

And as i said you could get up to 7.1.2 from stereo(Auro 3D), which is many music enthusiasts favourite setting.
That's what I thought... In which case the Auro-2D upmixer on the MP-50 as of right now is definitely malfunctioning

.
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post #1482 of 3062 Old 10-28-2017, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
I have a front and a rear sub that I want both to receive LFE + redirected bass from all satellites; does the LFE choice do that?
YES!
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Y-ing would work, but I'm hoping that if each gets their own processing channel the MP-50 will individualize their corrections to do something like SFM.
The way RoomPerfect handles SFM is to learn a 3D model of your room based on your manual distance measurements and its microphone measurements. It then allows you to define focus positions (MLPs) so you can select either a different FOCUS seat when you have multiple listeners or a GLOBAL setting which tries to provide a balanced experience for all positions. I have 3 FOCUS positions and prefer them over the GLOBAL setting.
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Originally Posted by duckymomo View Post
My subs aren't equidistant so I wanted to use the MP-50 to time align them. It would be nice if you could use the Aux outputs for additional LFE subs.
AFAICT RoomPerfect does not automatically time-align. It requires you to carefully measure and manually enter speaker & sub distances. Therefore, it is best to manually time align subs before running RP. With the right cable or USB interface, one can even use the supplied mic with Room EQ Wizard to perfectly time align.

Room Perfect takes more effort than Audyssey initially to setup. However, once it achieves ~100% room knowledge you never need to make any more mic measurements unless you need to add a FOCUS position (which just takes a single measurement) or add/change the speaker layout or crossovers (you must restart RP in this case). The true beauty is not only the SQ but the ability to switch FOCUS positions on the fly and apply voicings on the fly. No need use a crude target curve editor to try and achieve the desired sound. The voicings can be switched in real-time via the remote. IMO, this is the only way to truly A/B target curves.
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post #1483 of 3062 Old 10-28-2017, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
I have a front and a rear sub that I want both to receive LFE + redirected bass from all satellites; does the LFE choice do that?
YES!
Quote:
Y-ing would work, but I'm hoping that if each gets their own processing channel the MP-50 will individualize their corrections to do something like SFM.
The way RoomPerfect handles SFM is to learn a 3D model of your room based on your manual distance measurements and its microphone measurements. It then allows you to define focus positions (MLPs) so you can select either a different FOCUS seat when you have multiple listeners or a GLOBAL setting which tries to provide a balanced experience for all positions. I have 3 FOCUS positions and prefer them over the GLOBAL setting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duckymomo View Post
My subs aren't equidistant so I wanted to use the MP-50 to time align them. It would be nice if you could use the Aux outputs for additional LFE subs.
AFAICT RoomPerfect does not automatically time-align. It requires you to carefully measure and manually enter speaker & sub distances. Therefore, it is best to manually time align subs before running RP. With the right cable or USB interface, one can even use the supplied mic with Room EQ Wizard to perfectly time align. RP does seem to time or phase align the subwoofers with the speakers which seems to produce great results (I haven't done any measuring/analysis yet).

Room Perfect takes more effort than Audyssey initially to setup. However, once it achieves ~100% room knowledge you never need to make any more mic measurements unless you need to add a FOCUS position (which just takes a single measurement) or add/change the speaker layout or crossovers (you must restart RP in this case). The true beauty is not only the SQ but the ability to switch FOCUS positions on the fly and apply voicings on the fly. No need use a crude target curve editor to try and achieve the desired sound. The voicings can be switched in real-time via the remote. IMO, this is the only way to truly A/B target curves.

You are allocated up to 8 FOCUS positions and 32 voicings!

Edit: @duckymomo , your results may still be great with two non-equidistant subs not time aligned both on the LFE output. What is the difference in distance from the MLP?

Last edited by Marc Alexander; 10-28-2017 at 04:20 PM.
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post #1484 of 3062 Old 10-28-2017, 04:27 PM
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YES!

Edit: @duckymomo , your results may still be great with two non-equidistant subs not time aligned both on the LFE output. What is the difference in distance from the MLP?
I don't want to do it automatically, I want to able to enter the different sub distances (which may or may not be the physical distances) in the MP-50. Since it only has one LFE output, looks like I wont be able to do that.

Off the top of my head, there's a 5-6 foot difference to the MLP. The results are absolutely horrible without time alignment.



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post #1485 of 3062 Old 10-28-2017, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
YES!
The way RoomPerfect handles SFM is to learn a 3D model of your room based on your manual distance measurements and its microphone measurements. It then allows you to define focus positions (MLPs) so you can select either a different FOCUS seat when you have multiple listeners or a GLOBAL setting which tries to provide a balanced experience for all positions. I have 3 FOCUS positions and prefer them over the GLOBAL setting.

AFAICT RoomPerfect does not automatically time-align. It requires you to carefully measure and manually enter speaker & sub distances. Therefore, it is best to manually time align subs before running RP. With the right cable or USB interface, one can even use the supplied mic with Room EQ Wizard to perfectly time align. RP does seem to time or phase align the subwoofers with the speakers which seems to produce great results (I haven't done any measuring/analysis yet).

Room Perfect takes more effort than Audyssey initially to setup. However, once it achieves ~100% room knowledge you never need to make any more mic measurements unless you need to add a FOCUS position (which just takes a single measurement) or add/change the speaker layout or crossovers (you must restart RP in this case). The true beauty is not only the SQ but the ability to switch FOCUS positions on the fly and apply voicings on the fly. No need use a crude target curve editor to try and achieve the desired sound. The voicings can be switched in real-time via the remote. IMO, this is the only way to truly A/B target curves.

You are allocated up to 8 FOCUS positions and 32 voicings!

Edit: @duckymomo , your results may still be great with two non-equidistant subs not time aligned both on the LFE output. What is the difference in distance from the MLP?
Not sure if it is the same for you guys, but when I wanted to run multiple subs from the single LFE output of the MX160 using a XLR/RCA adapter I was advised to only use an XLR/RCA adapter with pin 3 lifted. Got one made by Blue jeans cable.
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post #1486 of 3062 Old 10-28-2017, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
YES!
Great!


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The way RoomPerfect handles SFM is to learn a 3D model of your room based on your manual distance measurements and its microphone measurements.
No matter how much it knows, it cannot do SFM w/o different signals to the subs (which isn't to say that it doesn't do a great job on the bass).

All may not be lost SFM-wise though; the L/R sub option with a L/R XO to the subs low enough to prevent localization.

It would be interesting to compare the bass results, measured as well as audible, between the two configurations.

Also I wonder how much movie content actually has significantly different bass signals between L and R, as that could throw a wrench into the works.

Noah
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post #1487 of 3062 Old 10-28-2017, 11:12 PM
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No matter how much it knows, it cannot do SFM w/o different signals to the subs (which isn't to say that it doesn't do a great job on the bass).
TMK, only Harman does true "SFM" which generally requires 4 sub locations. A JBL Synthesis solution is likely 5-10x the cost of a full solution utilizing a MP-50. Steinway Lyngdorf and JBL synthesis follow the same basic sales model (all-in-one solutions). The MP-50's full "sound field management" requires 4 subs as well but operates differently. Of course, you must use all 4 aux outputs for the corner subs.

Have you read the bass management section of the MP-50 manual? The manual is a bit incomplete IMO but bass management is covered in-depth. My recollection is that single front & rear subs should be supported. This is one of the things I am discussing with Lyngdorf.

IMO, the closest thing to Harman's SFM would the Multi-Sub Optimizer software and a DSP with 4 individual sub EQs (which Lyngdorf does not have, voicing is system wide, not per channel). Trinnov Optimizer is a step up from RoomPerfect IMO and can implement MSO parameters. I have also heard that Harman SFM may be made available to Trinnov users eventually (at a cost).

The new Trinnov Altitude16 is an attractive solution but the street price (which is always list AFAIK) is about double that of the MP-50 (which dealers can discount). I'd love to own the A16 but the cost is just too high for me.
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Does everybody really happy with the bass you get from LFE channel sub? 18" sub owners especialy?
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Since the MP-50 does not support Auro3D 13.1 REAR SURROUNDS are not utilized. My understanding is that Auro2D simply eliminates the height layer (at least D+M's implementation). I believe Datasat supports REAR SURROUNDS if VoG and Height Center are not utilized. I don't believe the MP-50 supports this...yet. It makes sense that REAR SURROUNDS are inactive with Auro-3D or 2D.
Thanks for the clarification. Though I also read that some people think that Auro2D should support the rear surrounds ;-)
I think that would be a nice option at least for stereo music processing.

But I definitely lack a clear understanding of how the different post-processing options are intended to be used (on what source material, and for what speaker configs). Can anyone recommend a good overview/intro read on this (the MP-50 user manual is not exactly useful in this regard:-)

cheers, Erik

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I don't want to do it automatically, I want to able to enter the different sub distances (which may or may not be the physical distances) in the MP-50. Since it only has one LFE output, looks like I wont be able to do that.

Off the top of my head, there's a 5-6 foot difference to the MLP. The results are absolutely horrible without time alignment.

With EQ:
Perhaps add a MiniDSP into the mix?


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TMK, only Harman does true "SFM" which generally requires 4 sub locations. A JBL Synthesis solution is likely 5-10x the cost of a full solution utilizing a MP-50. Steinway Lyngdorf and JBL synthesis follow the same basic sales model (all-in-one solutions). The MP-50's full "sound field management" requires 4 subs as well but operates differently. Of course, you must use all 4 aux outputs for the corner subs.

Have you read the bass management section of the MP-50 manual? The manual is a bit incomplete IMO but bass management is covered in-depth. My recollection is that single front & rear subs should be supported. This is one of the things I am discussing with Lyngdorf.

IMO, the closest thing to Harman's SFM would the Multi-Sub Optimizer software and a DSP with 4 individual sub EQs (which Lyngdorf does not have, voicing is system wide, not per channel). Trinnov Optimizer is a step up from RoomPerfect IMO and can implement MSO parameters. I have also heard that Harman SFM may be made available to Trinnov users eventually (at a cost).

The new Trinnov Altitude16 is an attractive solution but the street price (which is always list AFAIK) is about double that of the MP-50 (which dealers can discount). I'd love to own the A16 but the cost is just too high for me.
Interesting! Personally I am very happy with the 4-sub bass management option in the MP-50. This was a major reason for me to get the MP-50. Sounds really good on both 2-ch stereo (very important to me) and multichannel. I would never go back to multiple subs on a single LFE-channel... But as for experimenting with more complex configs on the LFE-channel only, I suppose a DSP solution like MiniDSP DDRC88 could be tried. I did that before I got the MP-50 and it worked quite well for experimenting with different configs of 4 subs, e.g., 2 LFE subs + stereo front L+R sub.
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Originally Posted by arisholm View Post
Thanks for the clarification. Though I also read that some people think that Auro2D should support the rear surrounds ;-)
I think that would be a nice option at least for stereo music processing.
Hi Erik,
It is definitely possible for Auro-2D to have audio emanating from the back surrounds. In fact, this is the first instance we have come across where it does not (although we haven't fully comprehensively evaluated all products that make use it) wherein IMO it's kinda the best and most useful feature of Auro-2D, being able to upscale all of stereo and 5.1 audio, particularly music, to 7.1

The legacy upmixers Dolby Pro Logic II, IIx and IIz are superior to Auro-2D, which I have been repeatedly pursuing with Steinway and Lyngdorf to be added to both the MP-50 and P200 processors; but because of the complications involved with respect to doing so, I asked them to add Auro-2D as the next best thing; which is why I love these guys because they always listen to and look after the best interests of the customerbase.

I had yet another conversation with them whilst at CEDIA last month and followed up with respect to them adding the legacy upmixers Dolby Pro Logic II, IIx and IIz. Suffice to say, if they can they will, but there are no guarantees that they will do so, because it's not as simple to achieve as some folks think it is. That said, it would certainly add an extra USP to the MP-50 and P200 if they do add these, in addition to the Auro-2D, wherein many audiophiles, myself included, would greatly value the addition; and I have told them so.

Either way, there's a need for an upmixer to upmix stereo and 5.1 audio to 7.1. Auro-2D is definitely capable of doing so, but currently seems to be malfunctioning. So hopefully Lyngdorf can and will fix this. What I can say is that having heard it many times previously operating properly with audio emanating from the back surrounds, as intended, it sounds great.

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Originally Posted by arisholm View Post
I definitely lack a clear understanding of how the different post-processing options are intended to be used (on what source material, and for what speaker configs). Can anyone recommend a good overview/intro read on this (the MP-50 user manual is not exactly useful in this regard:-) cheers, Erik
Personal preference is going to be key here because there really isn't any 'one shoe fits all' when it comes to the various post-processing options / upmixers. A lot is going to depend upon your particular speaker configuration, which type of audio you are playing (e.g. stereo studio music recording, or 5.1 surround music live concert, or 5.1 movie etc...) and your own particular personal preferences. For the same reason there is no 'right' or 'wrong'. So my recommendation is simply to try them all out with respect to whichever type of audio you are playing so as to get a feel regarding what they do and how they sound and simply use whichever you like best. Some folks prefer the Auromatic upscaler for music, others prefer the Dolby Surround Upmixer, whereas others will only ever listen to stereo music played back as stereo citing that's how it was recorded so that's how it was/is intended to be listened to. Everyone is right and nobody is wrong. What's most important is what YOU prefer. So my advice is to simply have a play around and see which you like best.

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post #1493 of 3062 Old 10-29-2017, 04:54 AM
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Originally Posted by arisholm View Post
Interesting! Personally I am very happy with the 4-sub bass management option in the MP-50. This was a major reason for me to get the MP-50. Sounds really good on both 2-ch stereo (very important to me) and multichannel. I would never go back to multiple subs on a single LFE-channel... But as for experimenting with more complex configs on the LFE-channel only, I suppose a DSP solution like MiniDSP DDRC88 could be tried. I did that before I got the MP-50 and it worked quite well for experimenting with different configs of 4 subs, e.g., 2 LFE subs + stereo front L+R sub.
Great minds think alike! You will note that I just suggested this very thing to @duckymomo in the previous post to yours ^^^^

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post #1494 of 3062 Old 10-29-2017, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Hi Erik,
It is definitely possible for Auro-2D to have audio emanating from the back surrounds. In fact, this is the first instance we have come across where it does not (although we haven't fully comprehensively evaluated all products that make use it) wherein IMO it's kinda the best and most useful feature of Auro-2D, being able to upscale all of stereo and 5.1 audio, particularly music, to 7.1

The legacy upmixers Dolby Pro Logic II, IIx and IIz are superior to Auro-2D, which I have been repeatedly pursuing with Steinway and Lyngdorf to be added to both the MP-50 and P200 processors; but because of the complications involved with respect to doing so, I asked them to add Auro-2D as the next best thing; which is why I love these guys because they always listen to and look after the best interests of the customerbase.

I had yet another conversation with them whilst at CEDIA last month and followed up with respect to them adding the legacy upmixers Dolby Pro Logic II, IIx and IIz. Suffice to say, if they can they will, but there are no guarantees that they will do so, because it's not as simple to achieve as some folks think it is. That said, it would certainly add an extra USP to the MP-50 and P200 if they do add these, in addition to the Auro-2D, wherein many audiophiles, myself included, would greatly value the addition; and I have told them so.

Either way, there's a need for an upmixer to upmix stereo and 5.1 audio to 7.1. Auro-2D is definitely capable of doing so, but currently seems to be malfunctioning. So hopefully Lyngdorf can and will fix this. What I can say is that having heard it many times previously operating properly with audio emanating from the back surrounds, as intended, it sounds great.


Personal preference is going to be key here because there really isn't any 'one shoe fits all' when it comes to the various post-processing options / upmixers. A lot is going to depend upon your particular speaker configuration, which type of audio you are playing (e.g. stereo studio music recording, or 5.1 surround music live concert, or 5.1 movie etc...) and your own particular personal preferences. For the same reason there is no 'right' or 'wrong'. So my recommendation is simply to try them all out with respect to whichever type of audio you are playing so as to get a feel regarding what they do and how they sound and simply use whichever you like best. Some folks prefer the Auromatic upscaler for music, others prefer the Dolby Surround Upmixer, whereas others will only ever listen to stereo music played back as stereo citing that's how it was recorded so that's how it was/is intended to be listened to. Everyone is right and nobody is wrong. What's most important is what YOU prefer. So my advice is to simply have a play around and see which you like best.

Thanks for all the useful info and advice. Among the available options I prefer the Auro upmixer for 2-ch stereo so I hope they eventually will support the back surrounds channels :-) Never heard Pro Logic II etc but sounds like that would be even better! And of course: I have been asking for MQA support... that would be something. For now I use a Bluesound Node 2 that gets me "half way" and it already sounds SO much better than 44,1kHz 16bit. In my opinion...

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post #1495 of 3062 Old 10-29-2017, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by duckymomo View Post
I don't want to do it automatically, I want to able to enter the different sub distances (which may or may not be the physical distances) in the MP-50. Since it only has one LFE output, looks like I wont be able to do that.

Off the top of my head, there's a 5-6 foot difference to the MLP. The results are absolutely horrible without time alignment.



With EQ:

After looking at those graphs: Not an option to move the subs to different locations? These significant variations indicate that placement is quite "sub-optimal" regardless of time/phase alignment issues:-)
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post #1496 of 3062 Old 10-29-2017, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by arisholm View Post
After looking at those graphs: Not an option to move the subs to different locations? These significant variations indicate that placement is quite "sub-optimal" regardless of time/phase alignment issues:-)
No, they're in the corners and that's by far the best placement in the room (that's possible). Did you see the graph showing the final result? It's pretty much as good as it gets in one position + really good at Pos 2 (not shown).

This is showing the importance of time alignment if the subs are not equidistant. And even if they are, changing delays might improve things.

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post #1497 of 3062 Old 10-29-2017, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
TMK, only Harman does true "SFM" which generally requires 4 sub locations. A JBL Synthesis solution is likely 5-10x the cost of a full solution utilizing a MP-50. Steinway Lyngdorf and JBL synthesis follow the same basic sales model (all-in-one solutions). The MP-50's full "sound field management" requires 4 subs as well but operates differently. Of course, you must use all 4 aux outputs for the corner subs.
I don't believe that's correct (5-10x the cost, that is) any longer. With the JBL Synthesis SDP-75 pre-pro (which is a custom version of the Trinnov Altitude), my understanding is that the only other requirement would be to use JBL or Revel speakers. Some of the JBL speakers, such as the M2, do require specific amps be used, but none of the Revel speakers do. The SDP-75 is a lot more expensive than the MP-50, but more like double the cost at which point the rest of the system cost is essentially how high you decide to go on speakers and amps.
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post #1498 of 3062 Old 10-29-2017, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Perhaps add a MiniDSP into the mix?

I already do, but I wanted to simplify things and it seems like waste to not be able to use AUX 1-4 for LFE subs. Most people buying this processor will also use it for movies, where Left/Right/Front/Back subs is extremely unlikely to give you better performance (especially at multiple pos)then time aligning and then EQing as one LF channel.

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post #1499 of 3062 Old 10-29-2017, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by daimler2015 View Post
Not sure if it is the same for you guys, but when I wanted to run multiple subs from the single LFE output of the MX160 using a XLR/RCA adapter I was advised to only use an XLR/RCA adapter with pin 3 lifted. Got one made by Blue jeans cable.
This is only necessary when converting to RCA. I prefer shorting pins 1&3 but lifting pin 3 can work too.
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Originally Posted by gsr View Post
I don't believe that's correct (5-10x the cost, that is) any longer. With the JBL Synthesis SDP-75 pre-pro (which is a custom version of the Trinnov Altitude), my understanding is that the only other requirement would be to use JBL or Revel speakers. Some of the JBL speakers, such as the M2, do require specific amps be used, but none of the Revel speakers do. The SDP-75 is a lot more expensive than the MP-50, but more like double the cost at which point the rest of the system cost is essentially how high you decide to go on speakers and amps.
I was told at CEDIA that the SDP-75 is not available for purchase outside of a full JBL Synthesis system utilizing their design and installation services. I would be happy to be wrong, but I haven't seen anyone in the forum who owns the SDP-75P purchased outside those parameters.
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