Lyngdorf MP-50 | 12 Channel AV Processor; 9.1.6 with matrixed Wides and Top Middles - Page 51 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1501 of 3059 Old 10-29-2017, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by arisholm View Post
After looking at those graphs: Not an option to move the subs to different locations? These significant variations indicate that placement is quite "sub-optimal" regardless of time/phase alignment issues:-)
@duckymomo I have to agree. Which corners are the subs placed in? Are the other corners available? Did you try catacorner placement?
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Perhaps add a MiniDSP into the mix?

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Originally Posted by duckymomo View Post
I already do, but I wanted to simplify things and it seems like waste to not be able to use AUX 1-4 for LFE subs. Most people buying this processor will also use it for movies, where Left/Right/Front/Back subs is extremely unlikely to give you better performance (especially at multiple pos)then time aligning and then EQing as one LF channel.
I should have added that the MP-50s bass management solution with 2-4 subs using the aux outputs greatest advantage is when using x-overs above 80Hz. I've found that even though my surrounds and heights are rated down to 75Hz they start bottoming out at close to reference levels with 80Hz crossover. I am using 125Hz crossovers now.

The Unbroken scene from the 2015 Atmos demo-disc is a good demo of directional bass with the MP-50s stereo bass management.

I agree that with a standard 80Hz crossover, there is not much benefit over just using the LFE out and a MiniDSP or similar.
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post #1502 of 3059 Old 10-29-2017, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
No, when I try to add a front or rear sub it automatically adds Left and Right. There is no way to configure one front and one rear. I believe this will be remedied by Lyngdorf in a future software release.
Do the subs have to be identical for this to work and sound well?
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post #1503 of 3059 Old 10-29-2017, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
@duckymomo I have to agree. Which corners are the subs placed in? Are the other corners available? Did you try catacorner placement?


I should have added that the MP-50s bass management solution with 2-4 subs using the aux outputs greatest advantage is when using x-overs above 80Hz. I've found that even though my surrounds and heights are rated down to 75Hz they start bottoming out at close to reference levels with 80Hz crossover. I am using 125Hz crossovers now.

The Unbroken scene from the 2015 Atmos demo-disc is a good demo of directional bass with the MP-50s stereo bass management.

I agree that with a standard 80Hz crossover, there is not much benefit over just using the LFE out and a MiniDSP or similar.

Opposing front and back corners. I can assure you that many tens of hours were spent placing and measuring 100s of different combinations.

I'm still confused I guess why there's a problem when the end result is what matters and it's +/- 3dB from 18-115hz. I could easily add more filters and make it +/- 1dB, but I don't see or hear the need.
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post #1504 of 3059 Old 10-29-2017, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by duckymomo View Post
Opposing front and back corners. I can assure you that many tens of hours were spent placing and measuring 100s of different combinations.

I'm still confused I guess why there's a problem when the end result is what matters and it's +/- 3dB from 18-115hz. I could easily add more filters and make it +/- 1dB, but I don't see or hear the need.
My bad, I didn't click "see more" so I didn't see the second WITH EQ graph. It looks great! Nevermind.
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post #1505 of 3059 Old 10-29-2017, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
Do the subs have to be identical for this to work and sound well?
In general, yes.
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post #1506 of 3059 Old 10-29-2017, 03:55 PM
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Thanks for the clarification. Though I also read that some people think that Auro2D should support the rear surrounds ;-)
I think that would be a nice option at least for stereo music processing.

But I definitely lack a clear understanding of how the different post-processing options are intended to be used (on what source material, and for what speaker configs). Can anyone recommend a good overview/intro read on this (the MP-50 user manual is not exactly useful in this regard:-)
The D+M & Yamaha manuals do a good job summarizing all of the different processing modes. I recommend the CX-A5100, X6400H, and AV7704 manuals.
@Nalleh clarified how the D+M processors behave in regards to Auro and rear surrounds. (I was incorrect)
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With D&M models up to 2017 there are only two ways to get sound from rear surrounds:

1. In Auro 3D mode, using only 2 heights(ie front heights), or 7.1.2.

2. Using Auro 2D mode which disables all height, or 7.1.

PS: in native Auro, ONLY on 13.1 tracks.
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In which case am I right that with respect to Auro-2D being fed a stereo or 5.1 audio signal that audio should be emanating from the back surrounds?
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Correct. At least on D&M.

And as i said you could get up to 7.1.2 from stereo(Auro 3D), which is many music enthusiasts favourite setting.
I wonder what happens with the MP-50 if configured for 7.1.2? I am not at home so I can't test it out at the moment.
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post #1507 of 3059 Old 10-29-2017, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
TMK, only Harman does true "SFM" which generally requires 4 sub locations.
I believe that's the case even using"SFM" loosely to mean any attempt to smooth the combined response of two or more subs by varying their relative levels and/or delays.


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Have you read the bass management section of the MP-50 manual? The manual is a bit incomplete IMO but bass management is covered in-depth. My recollection is that single front & rear subs should be supported. This is one of the things I am discussing with Lyngdorf.
I just read the BM section, and don't see anything about single front or rear subs, just what you said about assuming a L/R pair - "The front and rear subwoofers in the speaker setup provide a way to add more than a single sub to the system."


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Trinnov Optimizer is a step up from RoomPerfect IMO and can implement MSO parameters.
It is in the sense that it can use its PEQ to apply MSO parameters, but AFAIK it also doesn't do any relative level/delay adjustments between multiple subs to smooth their combined response.

You might find this interesting if you haven't already seen it:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...l#post55023438

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post #1508 of 3059 Old 10-29-2017, 04:38 PM
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I was told at CEDIA that the SDP-75 is not available for purchase outside of a full JBL Synthesis system utilizing their design and installation services. I would be happy to be wrong, but I haven't seen anyone in the forum who owns the SDP-75P purchased outside those parameters.
That doesn't seem to be true. I've got Revel Salon 2 x 6 + a Voice 2 and a pair of ATI 6007 amps and have been offered pricing to purchase a SDP-75 without any additional strings attached. The kit containing the calibration microphone is also available for end users to purchase so I could do my own calibration. If I paid them to install and calibrate the system, it would be considered a JBL Synthesis system, even without using their amps. If I did my own calibration, it wouldn't be considered an official Synthesis system. This has been discussed a fair amount in the relevant threads over the last several months. Ultimately, I just don't want to spend in the ballpark of $20K for a pre-pro as the depreciation is just too steep. I'm much more willing to spend money on speakers and amps.

The MP-50 and McIntosh MX-160 sibling are choices I'm pondering, but I'm not sure I want to spend that much on a pre-pro either, especially when they don't have full 18Gbps 4K support and the upgrade path remains an unknown quantity. For now, I'm hoping my Denon AVP-A1HDCI lasts until I make a decision.
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post #1509 of 3059 Old 10-29-2017, 05:26 PM
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My bad, I didn't click "see more" so I didn't see the second WITH EQ graph. It looks great! Nevermind.
Great!

What's your thoughts on the EQing the subs before RP question? I think I've read something about Lyngdorf not recommending it because it changes the power response of the room.

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post #1510 of 3059 Old 10-29-2017, 05:29 PM
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What's your thoughts on the EQing the subs before RP question? I think I've read something about Lyngdorf not recommending it because it changes the power response of the room.
Seems like that's a good thing if it makes it smoother.

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post #1511 of 3059 Old 10-29-2017, 06:31 PM
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Seems like that's a good thing if it makes it smoother.
Yea, that's how I feel based on the published research, my love for data, and my brain. But Lyngdorf's approach is different and I'm trying to keep an open mind.

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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
TMK, only Harman does true "SFM" which generally requires 4 sub locations.
Yup, only Harman does SFM because they patented it. SFM can work with 2 or 3 subs.

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post #1513 of 3059 Old 10-29-2017, 09:02 PM
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I believe that's the case even using"SFM" loosely to mean any attempt to smooth the combined response of two or more subs by varying their relative levels and/or delays.
Keep in mind that SFM makes no attempt to smooth the combined response of multiple subs. Instead, it simply tries to maximize seat to seat consistency. The response might look like crap, but it is the same crap in every seat. Making the response smooth happens in the next step: equalization (made easier by the fact that you have the same peaks & dips in every seat, courtesy of SFM).

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Right you are; I should have said, vary relative amplitude and phase to reduce spatial variation from modal effects.

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post #1515 of 3059 Old 10-29-2017, 09:18 PM
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Yup, only Harman does SFM because they patented it.
For now........;-)
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For now........;-)
Hey quickdraw, I'd teed that up for Stuart.

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Keep in mind that SFM makes no attempt to smooth the combined response of multiple subs. Instead, it simply tries to maximize seat to seat consistency. The response might look like crap, but it is the same crap in every seat. Making the response smooth happens in the next step: equalization (made easier by the fact that you have the same peaks & dips in every seat, courtesy of SFM).
Love it!

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post #1518 of 3059 Old 10-30-2017, 05:46 AM
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If anyone is interested, I translated the NEC1 IR codes into HEX (for those of us with URC remotes...)

Spoiler!
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post #1519 of 3059 Old 10-30-2017, 11:25 AM
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Hey quickdraw, I'd teed that up for Stuart.
Bang...but I am looking forward to the future of multi-sub optimization, whatever it will be...Here’s to subwoofer crap consistency...
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Here’s to subwoofer crap consistency...
Any algorithm that can make the peaks & dips the same in every seat gives every equalizer a big head start.

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Arrow

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Any algorithm that can make the peaks & dips the same in every seat gives every equalizer a big head start.
Especially true once you get outside of a single MLP optimization (or even a single row of three seats) and consider a multi-row setting.

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post #1523 of 3059 Old 10-30-2017, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
I believe that's the case even using"SFM" loosely to mean any attempt to smooth the combined response of two or more subs by varying their relative levels and/or delays.
I don't think there is any reason to use SFM loosely. I should not have done so.
Quote:
I just read the BM section, and don't see anything about single front or rear subs, just what you said about assuming a L/R pair - "The front and rear subwoofers in the speaker setup provide a way to add more than a single sub to the system."
You are right, auxiliary subs are meant to be added in stereo pairs.

Little is known regarding RoomPerfect's sub calibration algorithms. I haven't had the time to attempt to analyze/reverse-engineer it yet.
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post #1524 of 3059 Old 10-30-2017, 06:50 PM
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That doesn't seem to be true. I've got Revel Salon 2 x 6 + a Voice 2 and a pair of ATI 6007 amps and have been offered pricing to purchase a SDP-75 without any additional strings attached. The kit containing the calibration microphone is also available for end users to purchase so I could do my own calibration. If I paid them to install and calibrate the system, it would be considered a JBL Synthesis system, even without using their amps. If I did my own calibration, it wouldn't be considered an official Synthesis system. This has been discussed a fair amount in the relevant threads over the last several months. Ultimately, I just don't want to spend in the ballpark of $20K for a pre-pro as the depreciation is just too steep. I'm much more willing to spend money on speakers and amps.

The MP-50 and McIntosh MX-160 sibling are choices I'm pondering, but I'm not sure I want to spend that much on a pre-pro either, especially when they don't have full 18Gbps 4K support and the upgrade path remains an unknown quantity. For now, I'm hoping my Denon AVP-A1HDCI lasts until I make a decision.
In my limited understanding of the Trinnov Optimizer and the JBL/Revel anechoic data I would find it hard to resist the Altitude16 at a minimum in your case.

RoomPerfect is attempting to achieve the same goals but is doesn't have the luxury of anechoic data or pre-room-correction EQ. It can only determine a speaker's in-room power response via measurements.

http://lyngdorf.com/news-what-is-room-correction/
http://www.mariobon.com/Glossario/__...oomPerfect.pdf

I attended the Dirac presentation/training at CEDIA 2017 and they are also now preaching about the preservation of speakers' power response. Also in-room with Dirac.

I went with the MP-50 for several reasons. I felt it offered the best music SQ short of a Theta Casablanca. I decided prioritize SQ over features: Audyssey XT-32 is just not good enough for critical music listening (it's good enough for movies IMO). The app has been dissapointing (I have a Denon X4300H which is very similar in SQ to the Marantz AV7702mkII the Lyngdorf replaced) The Trinnov A16 is still twice what I was prepared to spend. A fully functional Emotiva RMC-1 was too far away (given Emotiva's history). I also prefer Lyngdorf's implementation of Focus positions and voicings to the Dirac solutions.

If you want the most out of your Revels, I feel like anything other than Trinnov is a compromise. If the Trinnov solutions are too expensive, RoomPerfect or Dirac are the next best options.
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post #1525 of 3059 Old 10-30-2017, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by duckymomo View Post
Great!

What's your thoughts on the EQing the subs before RP question? I think I've read something about Lyngdorf not recommending it because it changes the power response of the room.
I would lean towards not EQing before RP (time-align only). You could then A/B using RP bypass to compare RP's result to your manual EQ (REW and most importantly your ears). You could save your result then test with your EQ engaged prior to running RP. These are things I want to test but haven't had the time.

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Does everybody really happy with the bass you get from LFE channel sub? 18" sub owners especialy?
Are you still seeing sub-optimal LFE response via RoomPerfect? Your post got lost a bit in the dts excitement. But, I vaguely remembered it and doubled back.
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post #1526 of 3059 Old 10-30-2017, 07:15 PM
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The Trinnov A16 is still twice what I was prepared to spend. A fully functional Emotiva RMC-1 was too far away (given Emotiva's history). I also prefer Lyngdorf's implementation of Focus positions and voicings to the Dirac solutions.

If you want the most out of your Revels, I feel like anything other than Trinnov is a compromise. If the Trinnov solutions are too expensive, RoomPerfect or Dirac are the next best options.
Yeah, I hear you. If I were to decide to go with Trinnov I would probably opt to spend the extra for the JBL version as there are some extra features that would be worthwhile given that I have the Revel speakers. It just kills me to spend so much on a pre-pro knowing how little it would be worth in just a few years.

The Emotiva RMC-1 seems like a really good budget option, but we’ll see what and when they deliver.

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post #1527 of 3059 Old 11-01-2017, 08:12 PM
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I am about to dig into the new firmware and put DTS:X, Neural X, and Neo X through the paces!


I thought I would let everyone know that the Mytek ADC96 works very well with the MP-50 (I'm connecting via AES/EBU). I purchased it because of several positive testimonials specifically with Vinyl.

I was surprised to read this reviewer giving the ADC96 (Mytek's entry level ADC) the nod over even the Benchmark ADC-1!

https://mytekdigital.com/download_li...ers_(ADCs).pdf

The MP-50 w/external ADC makes for an SSP that is equal to or better than the McIntosh MX160 for a few grand less.
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post #1528 of 3059 Old 11-01-2017, 08:32 PM
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Marc have you not played round with DTS-X Neural X yet?

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post #1529 of 3059 Old 11-03-2017, 07:00 AM
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Hi everyone,

I have an update regarding the issues with respect to the latest firmware update 3.0.0

Good news and bad news.

Bad news first... Further to the malfunctioning DTS Neural:X and Auro-2D, the playback/decoding functionality of the native encoded DTS:X is unfortunately also malfunctioning.

Specifics as per follows:

(1) SURROUNDS encoded DTS:X audio plays back / emanates out of both the SURROUNDS speakers and the FRONT L/R speakers

(2) FRONT HEIGHTS/TOPS encoded DTS:X audio plays back / emanates out of both the FRONT HEIGHTS/TOPS and the FRONT L/R speakers

(3) REAR HEIGHTS/TOPS encoded DTS:X audio plays back / emanates out of both the REAR HEIGHTS/TOPS and the BACK SURROUNDS speakers

I have filed an additional report with Lyngdorf regarding this.

The good news is that they are on the case regards resolving all of these issues; wherein, it would appear that these issues are not in fact their fault, but the blame resides with Analogue Devices who it would appear have right royally screwed up updating the respective chipset regards adding the DTS:X, Neural:X and Auro-2D functionality, where all three are malfunctioning! Good job Analogue Devices! Brilliant!

However, please be reassured by the fact that Lyngdorf took action immediately following receipt of my report and they are already making headway regarding fixing the various issues.

I will be sure to post updates on here as soon as I receive them.


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post #1530 of 3059 Old 11-03-2017, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Hi everyone,



(2) FRONT HEIGHTS/TOPS encoded DTS:X audio plays back / emanates out of both the FRONT HEIGHTS/TOPS and the FRONT L/R speakers

(3) REAR HEIGHTS/TOPS encoded DTS:X audio plays back / emanates out of both the REAR HEIGHTS/TOPS and the BACK SURROUNDS speakers
Did you try both «height» and «top» setups? Because it is a well known fact that DTS:X is encoded in a 7.1.4 setup with heights, not tops. And if you have a setup with tops, they will bleed down to the ear level speakers to try to phantom to where the heights would be.

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