Lyngdorf MP-50 | 12 Channel AV Processor; 9.1.6 with matrixed Wides and Top Middles - Page 53 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1561 of 3025 Old 11-06-2017, 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Looks like you aren't the only one who's confidence is shaken. I just noticed this pre-owned MP-50 up on ebay:

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F132386288262
The same seller has listed it twice previously. The initial asking price was $7200; it was re-listed for $7500 and now for $7400. When it didn't get any bids at $7200, the usual process is to drop the price, not bump it higher...
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post #1562 of 3025 Old 11-06-2017, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post

Personally I love what the matrixed WIDES do with respect to widening the front soundstage. So far there's a 100% approval where every single person who has auditioned the audio system prefers music with the WIDES as compared with without
So how would I get matrixed wides for music in a 5.1 + Wides setup? I would use Neural:X or native Atmos for movies.

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post #1563 of 3025 Old 11-06-2017, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by duckymomo View Post
What about having the wides active for music. I'm really curious to see what they add to 2.1, but I imagine it will be good. I hate using DSU for music, Neural:X probably uses the center channel in the same horrible way. It just sounds so awful/wrong compared to 2.1.
No, dts Neural X doesn't collapse to the center so it sounds much better than DSU w/music to me. However, I believe activating Center Spread works with Dolby Surround. This is based on my listening w/D+M SSPs.
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Why go to the trouble when you could do 7.1.4 + WIDES and have stereo rears?
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Could you elaborate on the comparison w/matrixed, in particular as regards expanding the front soundfield and soundfield continuity between fronts and side surrounds?
With matrixed WIDES, LFW is simply a sum LF+LSS. A sound designed to come from only the LFW position is played via all 3 positions: LF, LFW, and LSS. Likewise for the RFW & TOP MIDS matrixing. The matrixing is always active, so when sound emanates from LF it also emanates from LFW even with LSS inactive. Likewise with LSS, LFW is also active even when LFW is inactive.

Count me among those who actually prefers the matrixed WIDES with 2.0 music. I also like the verticle additions to the soundstage by Auro3D.

However with Atmos, this is not truly expanding 7.1.4 to 9.1.6. However it does help with improving imaging especially for seating positions other than those near the MLP. I find the matrixing ideal for multi-row setups.

When rendered, the same sound designed to emanate from LFW will do so, while keeping FL & FSS silent. This is how Atmos was designed to operate.

To summarize my preference, I like 5.1.4 + WIDES for Atmos when it is just me or me & immediate family. When listening to 2.0 (via Auro3D) or when we have company, I switch to 7.1.4 + matrixed WIDES & TOP MIDS.
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Originally Posted by duckymomo View Post
So how would I get matrixed wides for music in a 5.1 + Wides setup? I would use Neural:X or native Atmos for movies.
The MP-50 can only render 11.1 channels. Along with this, it will only matrix after all rendered channels are used.

At this moment, you cannot select which channels are rendered and which are matrixed. I am submitting this as a feature request.

This is the current priority for rendering in addition to the standard 5.1 setup:

1 REAR SURROUNDS 7.1.4
2 FRONT WIDES 5.1.4 + WIDES
3 TOP MIDS 5.1.6

Therefore w/5.1.4 + WIDES & TOP MIDS only the TOP MIDS would be matrixed. The WIDES will be rendered.

I hope this all makes sense. Feel free to ask follow-ups.
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Last edited by Marc Alexander; 11-06-2017 at 11:32 AM.
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post #1564 of 3025 Old 11-06-2017, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Count me among those who actually prefers the matrixed WIDES with 2.0 music. I also like the verticle additions to the soundstage by Auro3D.
Heresy!!! That audio isn't supposed to be there don't ya know? That's heresy I tell you!!! Wherein, as it happens I absolutely agree with you. I appreciate it's sacrilege as far as the purists are concerned, but I just can't help myself, because damn does it sound good!!! Matrixed WIDES plus Auro-2D/3D with 2.0 music...

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post #1565 of 3025 Old 11-06-2017, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
The MP-50 can only render 11.1 channels. Along with this, it will only matrix after all rendered channels are used.

At this moment, you cannot select which channels are rendered and which are matrixed. I am submitting this as a feature request.

This is the current priority for rendering in addition to the standard 5.1 setup:

1 REAR SURROUNDS
2 FRONT WIDES
3 TOP MIDS

Therefore w/5.1.4 + WIDES & TOP MIDS only the TOP MIDS would be matrixed. The WIDES will be rendered.

I hope this all makes sense. Feel free to ask follow-ups.
This answers everything for me. Thanks! They should really add the bold part and the priority order to the manual.

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post #1566 of 3025 Old 11-06-2017, 11:31 AM
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Edited for clarity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
This is the current priority for rendering in addition to the standard 5.1 setup:

1 REAR SURROUNDS 7.1.4
2 FRONT WIDES 5.1.4 + WIDES
3 TOP MIDS 5.1.6
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post #1567 of 3025 Old 11-06-2017, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by gsr View Post
The same seller has listed it twice previously. The initial asking price was $7200; it was re-listed for $7500 and now for $7400. When it didn't get any bids at $7200, the usual process is to drop the price, not bump it higher...
I asked why he was selling, the answer, moving to a MX160 does he know its not perfect
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post #1568 of 3025 Old 11-06-2017, 12:33 PM
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I asked why he was selling, the answer, moving to a MX160 does he know its not perfect
LOL

If that's the case, he's throwing away a ton of money to get the pretty (in a different way...) McIntosh faceplate and a few analog audio inputs that will get converted to digital. Oh and at least a slight delay on firmware updates. There aren't any other differences of substance are there? Isn't the digital to analog conversion and just about everything else (other than cosmetics and the analog inputs) identical on both models?
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post #1569 of 3025 Old 11-06-2017, 12:46 PM
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Maybe he just doesn't want to deal with an external ADC? If pricing was equal, I would choose the MX160.

Maybe he has/wants a rack full of matching McIntosh amplifiers? I have to guess that street pricing (at least second-hand) on the MX160 has dropped since the MP-50 was released.

At list price though, I would never buy the MX160 now that the Altitude16 exists!
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post #1570 of 3025 Old 11-06-2017, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by gsr View Post
There aren't any other differences of substance are there? Isn't the digital to analog conversion and just about everything else (other than cosmetics and the analog inputs) identical on both models?
The DACs may be different, I'm not sure. Maybe we can dig that info up.
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post #1571 of 3025 Old 11-08-2017, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
The DACs may be different, I'm not sure. Maybe we can dig that info up.
That would be very interesting information! In general I think Lyngdorf should give us a bit more technical information about this product... DAC implementation, output stage, volume control implementation, ...

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post #1572 of 3025 Old 11-08-2017, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by gsr View Post
The same seller has listed it twice previously. The initial asking price was $7200; it was re-listed for $7500 and now for $7400. When it didn't get any bids at $7200, the usual process is to drop the price, not bump it higher...
I invited him to post in the classifieds here and Blu-ray.com forum. Hopefully he will join.
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post #1573 of 3025 Old 11-08-2017, 01:23 PM
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That would be very interesting information! In general I think Lyngdorf should give us a bit more technical information about this product... DAC implementation, output stage, volume control implementation, ...
Hopefully they update the white paper currently posted. Have you read that? I'm not sure what info you need on volume control.
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post #1574 of 3025 Old 11-08-2017, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I'm happy to post that I have been going back and forth with Harmony and the MP-50 has been successfully added to the Harmony database and all commands are working (except discrete PowerOn & PowerOff). It appears Lyngdorf has not enabled discrete power yet and you must use PowerToggle. I will open a ticket with Lyngdorf.
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awesome!

when you open [the] ticket, see if you can get them to enable discreet sources as well
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I have confirmed that discrete PowerOn and PowerOff work properly now in rev. 3.0.0

Also, the new software is now posted online w/release notes. It appears that discrete sources are now supported as well. I will find out if IR is supported and what the corresponding IR codes are (and forward them to Harmony).

Release notes:
release 3.0.0:
-Support for DTS:X
-Added post-processing Auro-2D and DTS Neural:X
-Added DTS Dialog Control
-Supports passing through anamorphic formats sent by Kaleidescape
-Direct source select for P200/P100/MP50
-4k AppleTV dolby vision bugfix
-bugfixes
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Originally Posted by madhuski View Post
I saw that - talk about great customer service! Here are the codes they gave me if you wana send them to logitech (i've been focusing on NEEO and URC....)
There was an email from Lyngdorf that I had overlooked until last night. The IR commands for direct input selection were added as a direct result of our request (less than two weeks before the software release).

While I want all bugs w/dts:X fixed, I am abundantly impressed with Lyngdorf's responsiveness. I have no regrets choosing the MP-50.
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post #1575 of 3025 Old 11-08-2017, 01:58 PM
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I'm not sure what info you need on volume control.
Speaking for myself, I'd like to know what device performs the volume adjustment.

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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Speaking for myself, I'd like to know what device performs the volume adjustment.
As in, do they do it in the digital or analog domain? Or something else?
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post #1577 of 3025 Old 11-08-2017, 02:23 PM
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As in, do they do it in the digital or analog domain? Or something else?
If they do it in the digital domain, that would be good info. IIRC the Goldmund products do that. More likely it is an analog device (analog signal path under digital control), but there's a number of options, some better than others, wrt noise, distortion, range, resolution. I'd be looking for something equal or better than the CS3318 I'm using today in the SSP-800.

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post #1578 of 3025 Old 11-08-2017, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
If they do it in the digital domain, that would be good info. IIRC the Goldmund products do that. More likely it is an analog device (analog signal path under digital control), but there's a number of options, some better than others, wrt noise, distortion, range, resolution. I'd be looking for something equal or better than the CS3318 I'm using today in the SSP-800.
If they did it in the digital domain, wouldn't we want the digital chain to be 24-bit (preferably 32bit floating point) to lower the noise floor?
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post #1579 of 3025 Old 11-08-2017, 02:52 PM
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If they did it in the digital domain, wouldn't we want the digital chain to be 24-bit (preferably 32bit floating point) to lower the noise floor?
The DAC sets the noise floor, not the math. Looking at 24-bit and 32-bit DACs, the output noise is the same. The word length difference is for easier system integration with specific DSPs.

Having said that, I'm all for extended precision in the DSPs.

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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
The DAC sets the noise floor, not the math. Looking at 24-bit and 32-bit DACs, the output noise is the same. The word length difference is for easier system integration with specific DSPs.

Having said that, I'm all for extended precision in the DSPs.
Maybe I'm just confused, but I though that higher bit depth meant lower noise. I'm probably just not using the correct terms. But, what I'm trying to say is that, I thought, in general, that you need more bit-depth to perform digital volume and maintain dynamic range without getting noise or inaccuracies.
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post #1581 of 3025 Old 11-08-2017, 03:42 PM
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Once the DAC is revealed I believe most of these questions will be answered. The Lyngdorf is 100% digital up until the DAC. Non-PCM audio will be decoded to PCM for processing. In modern designs, the DAC should essentially be the full output stage. Controlling volume digitally and providing the differential analog output (no op-amps creating an inverted {-} output) to feed the XLR outputs.

There is this note in the white paper:
Quote:
The design holds AntiPop relays on each analog output and an AC loss detection for safe operation. This ensures that not only does the MP-50 safeguard your speakers from noise generated through the mains power, it is itself also a gentle load to your mains power and other connected equipment.
I'm guessing that some purists/audiophiles may not be happy with any relays in the output path. Too bad for them.

The AKM AK4490 is being utilized in the upcoming D+M flagships as well as the Emotiva RMC-1.

AK4490 English Datasheet - Asahi Kasei Microdevices PDF

Historically Lyngdorf has utilized Wolfson DACs. However, Wolfson was acquired by Cirrus Logic in 2014.
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post #1582 of 3025 Old 11-08-2017, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
Maybe I'm just confused, but I though that higher bit depth meant lower noise. I'm probably just not using the correct terms. But, what I'm trying to say is that, I thought, in general, that you need more bit-depth to perform digital volume and maintain dynamic range without getting noise or inaccuracies.
Maybe this diagram will help. It shows noise floor and max signal levels in the audio path from source to ears.



The upper part is for an analog volume control circuit. The lower part is for a digital volume control. They both contain a choice of sources, either 16 or 24 bits, then a 32-bit DSP, a DAC with 21-bit equivalent dynamic range, and a power amp with a 22-bit equivalent dynamic range. The amp drives a speaker that is calibrated to the human listener per THX reference. This helps us understand where human hearing threshold fits into the equation.

The analog volume control has an equivalent dynamic range of 21-bit equivelent (CS3381). The digital volume control operates with 24 bits (could be 32 if you like).

To aggravate the noise issue, the examples have the volume controls set to -25 dB.

How does Vol -25 impact the noise floor for the analog case? The noise level of the signal presented to the listener is no worse than the DAC, and is inaudible to the listener.

How does Vol -25 impact the noise floor for the digital case? The noise level of the signal presented to the listener is no worse than the DAC, and is inaudible to the listener.
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Last edited by Roger Dressler; 11-08-2017 at 07:29 PM. Reason: fixed: "22 *bit equivalent*" in two places
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Maybe this diagram will help. It shows noise floor and max signal levels in the audio path from source to ears.



The upper part is for an analog volume control circuit. The lower part is for a digital volume control. They both contain a choice of sources, either 16 or 24 bits, then a 32-but DSP, a DAC with 21-bit equivalent dynamic range, and a power amp with a 22 dB dynamic range. The amp drives a speaker that is calibrated to the human listener per THX reference. This helps us understand where human hearing threshold fits into the equation.

The analog volume control has an equivalent dynamic range of 21 dB (CS3381). The digital volume control operates with 24 bits (could be 32 if you like).

To aggravate the noise issue, the examples have the volume controls set to -25 dB.

How does Vol -25 impact the noise floor for the analog case? The noise level of the signal presented to the listener is no worse than the DAC, and is inaudible to the listener.

How does Vol -25 impact the noise floor for the digital case? The noise level of the signal presented to the listener is no worse than the DAC, and is inaudible to the listener.
Roger- your level of knowledge never ceases to amaze me .....
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post #1584 of 3025 Old 11-08-2017, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Maybe this diagram will help. It shows noise floor and max signal levels in the audio path from source to ears.
*snip*
Am I missing something? How does it look if we replace the 24-bit digital volume with 16-bit?

Either way, I think the consensus is that digital volume, done right, can be superior or equivalent to analog volume. So, I guess we'll see if we can find out what Lyngdorf does here. I doubt they are using 16-bit in any case, so....probably all a moot point.
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post #1585 of 3025 Old 11-08-2017, 08:23 PM
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Am I missing something? How does it look if we replace the 24-bit digital volume with 16-bit?
Yes, moot. No one is using 16-bit DSPs in AV processors.

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post #1586 of 3025 Old 11-09-2017, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
Am I missing something? How does it look if we replace the 24-bit digital volume with 16-bit?

Either way, I think the consensus is that digital volume, done right, can be superior or equivalent to analog volume. So, I guess we'll see if we can find out what Lyngdorf does here. I doubt they are using 16-bit in any case, so....probably all a moot point.
I think those nice figures posted earlier are, well, nice, but I wonder if they might be a bit misleading? I understand the point that there is a noise floor and that we in practice never get more than about 21 bit resolution (for now), so any kind of processing below the noise floor is inconsequential. Same point made by Schiit Audio in the sales pitch for their clever 21-bit DAC ... Still, if you have a 24 bit input signal and attenuates that in the digital domain within those 24 available bits you are clearly doing some sort of bit truncation before D/A. Digital attenuation in that case is simply taking the 24 bit number and multiplying it by a factor between 0..1 to get a new (bit-truncated) number. Different story if the attenuation is done after first "scaling up" the input signal to 32 bits (i.e., multiply each sample by 256), so that you have "spare" bits for the subsequent attenuation. Anyway, this has been discussed at length in many other forums ;-)

My guess (or hope) is that MP-50 has a 32-bit digital volume control, a fully differential DAC implementation without "fake" op-amps to create a balanced signal, and state-of-the-art DAC chips to start with. In that case my post is moot..
And actually, I am already happy because most of all I trust my ears and I can hear that the SQ of the MP-50 is very good and better than what I get through the analog outputs of my Oppo 105D (but not quite at the same level as my dedicated NAD Dac :-)

Movie: MP-50 7.4.4, Adam Audio S5X-V, Tensor Center, SVS 2xPB16 2xPC13, Isovolt 3k, microRendu+ultracap
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post #1587 of 3025 Old 11-09-2017, 01:16 PM
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anyone have issues with the setup screen not fitting on their TV? not a big deal, just a little annoying....
Did you find a satisfactory solution?
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post #1588 of 3025 Old 11-09-2017, 01:22 PM
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Did you find a satisfactory solution?


not yet. Lyngdorf advises me to reinstall the latest FW....jus haven’t gotten around to thatvyet

Last edited by madhuski; 12-18-2017 at 11:49 AM.
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post #1589 of 3025 Old 11-09-2017, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by arisholm View Post
I think those nice figures posted earlier are, well, nice, but I wonder if they might be a bit misleading? I understand the point that there is a noise floor and that we in practice never get more than about 21 bit resolution (for now), so any kind of processing below the noise floor is inconsequential.
More importantly, it's that stuff below the threshold of human audibility is inconsequential. That's why I included the hearing map in the diagram.

Quote:
Same point made by Schiit Audio in the sales pitch for their clever 21-bit DAC ... Still, if you have a 24 bit input signal and attenuates that in the digital domain within those 24 available bits you are clearly doing some sort of bit truncation before D/A.
Yes, there's truncation and presumably dithering at the end of the chain.

I would ask, when you listen to a recording that has a fade out at the end, do you hear an increase in distortion? Now if you could "cancel" the fade out by applying equally increasing gain, you might hear quantization distortion/noise after applying some 40+ dB. It's down there, but we cannot hear it. And that's exactly the same for the digital volume control.

Quote:
Anyway, this has been discussed at length in many other forums ;-)
Any consensus?

Quote:
My guess (or hope) is that MP-50 has a 32-bit digital volume control
Is there any info from Lyngdorf saying it has a digital volume control? If not, may be seriously moot. Has anyone looked inside to see what parts populate the boards?

Deadwood II Theater (Previous Deadwood Theater HTOM)
Anthem AVM 60 7.4.4; Classé SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4; MiniDSP OpenDRC-AN
Oppo UDP-203; Oppo BDP-93; Win10 media PC w/Roon+Kodi; Roku Ultra; DirecTV Genie
Adam Audio S3V/S3H LCR, KEF Ci200QS 4 srrnd, Tannoy Di6 DC 4 hts, Hsu ULS-15 4 subs
JVC RS520; Stewart Cima Neve screen 125" diag 2.35:1, MLP at 115"
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post #1590 of 3025 Old 11-09-2017, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Is there any info from Lyngdorf saying it has a digital volume control? If not, may be seriously moot. Has anyone looked inside to see what parts populate the boards?
I've been searching for some "nudes" of the MP-50 and haven't found any yet. The first thing I do with new equipment is open it up to examine and photograph it.

Lyngdorf MP-50 | Yamaha MX-A5200 | Ascend Sierra Towers | Ascend Sierra Horizon | Ascend Sierra Lunas | Ascend HTM-200SE | SVS SB-13 x4
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