Lyngdorf MP-50 | 12 Channel AV Processor; 9.1.6 with matrixed Wides and Top Middles - Page 60 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1771 of 3244 Old 12-08-2017, 07:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Rock Danger View Post
True, but if there is no software for the hardware..... Then is it still relevant?

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Not sure what you mean, but obviously if the chipset manufacturer or the AVR's manufacturer decide not to release upgraded firmware (software) for their product(s), then I suppose it doesn't matter how relevant the chipset is.

My hope, however, is that HDMI will finally settle into what it always should have been; features implementable by firmware and bandwidth / signaling upgrades on separate, optional, upgrade paths. There has never been, IMO, a technical reason that newer HDMI chips were required to effect software changes, the only thing that ever necessitated an actual chipset replacement was bandwidth increases.

Which is to say that, IMO, to this point the entire HDMI world has been about forced upgrades through artificial reasons. This has been made worse by the fact that their max bandwidth has always lagged competitive interfaces on PC. I'm hoping everyone finally puts that mentality aside and stops filling our landfills and pilfering our wallets, lol. We'll see....
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post #1772 of 3244 Old 12-08-2017, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I have used XLR splitters and XLR-to-RCA adapters (Neutrik and Hosa brands) successfully with the MP-50. I am not sure why you were told to only use RCA unless your subs do all support XLR. I actually don't require the XLR splitter because all of my subs/MBMs have XLR-through capability (except my INuke for TTs). It just makes cabling easier. XLR-through is just a passive/parallel connection anyway.

I discussed subwoofers and the MP-50 in-depth with my Lyngdorf rep this week. @noah katz I had you specifically in mind. Lyngdorf's auxiliary subwoofers are intended to be used with Lyngdord boundary subwoofers (upper extension to 800Hz) or subwoofers that extend ≥300Hz. Expect diminishing returns with subs that don't go beyond 200Hz (most don't or are not optimal that high).

Conventional subs should be split from the single LFE out. This means that multiple subs should either be equidistant from the MLP or time/phase aligned manually. This is very easy to do with Room EQ Wizard and a microphone. You can even use the RoomPerfect mic with a USB sound interface or even a built-in sound card. It can be done satisfactory by ear.

This is the way it is for the time being. It will be interesting to see how Emotiva implements subwoofers w/Dirac in the RMC-1 as the RMC-1 could prove to be an upgrade for those willing to out in the time with Dirac.

Here is the list of devices you need to bring the MP-50 closer to what Emotiva, Denon & Marantz have previewed (but not yet delivered):
  1. HDFury Vertex or AVR Key for 18Gbps HDMI 2.0b support (or $1300 Lyngdorf updated HDMI board)
  2. Mytek ADC96 (or other ADC) for analog audio input
  3. REW & DSP (MiniDSP or DSpeaker) for multi-sub integration
  4. Analog video to HDMI?


Hi Marc,

Very interesting re the Aux subwoofers.

Our dem system runs 4 x Aux subs crossed at 200hz and speakers set to Natural roll off. It sounds absolutely fantastic. We use MK Sound subs as they are designed to play cleanly up to 200hz. The current Lyngdorf boundary woofers wouldn’t handle LFE particularly well so a dedicated LFE sub would need to be used in conjunction with them.

I will discuss this with Lyngdorf at ISE 2018

Rich


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post #1773 of 3244 Old 12-09-2017, 01:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
Not sure what you mean, but obviously if the chipset manufacturer or the AVR's manufacturer decide not to release upgraded firmware (software) for their product(s), then I suppose it doesn't matter how relevant the chipset is.

My hope, however, is that HDMI will finally settle into what it always should have been; features implementable by firmware and bandwidth / signaling upgrades on separate, optional, upgrade paths. There has never been, IMO, a technical reason that newer HDMI chips were required to effect software changes, the only thing that ever necessitated an actual chipset replacement was bandwidth increases.

Which is to say that, IMO, to this point the entire HDMI world has been about forced upgrades through artificial reasons. This has been made worse by the fact that their max bandwidth has always lagged competitive interfaces on PC. I'm hoping everyone finally puts that mentality aside and stops filling our landfills and pilfering our wallets, lol. We'll see....

So, if you have no media to play on this awesome chipset, then the capabilities of said chipset are irrelevant.

I guess the biggest argument would be 8K support, but can you see that in homes in 5 yrs time? I know what you're saying in new chips just for new chips sake, but new chipsets weren't used originally. Or the money wasn't stumped up for the newer version/s
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post #1774 of 3244 Old 12-09-2017, 01:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
What about 18Gbps HD-BaseT? It was not mentioned in the press release.


Here's some dissapointing news in light of the Lyngdorf HDMI announcement.

The Trinnov board is not less capable. They have restricted 4 ports to 10.2Gbps in software for compatibility. It will be updated to full 18Gbps in a future update.

The cost of this HDMI upgrade you ask? $700 for those who purchased before December 31, 2016. After? FREE!

Thoughts?

It's 2x the price of the Lyngdorf and early adopters are screwed? Will an MP50mkII come to market at same RRP with new board in tow? Ask me 1st week of Feb.

It seems, however that this chipset, lean as it is, will play all the HDR and 4K content out there for the next 5 yrs or more. Can you imagine how much a laser driven 8K PJ will be? Or trying to sell the public ultra ultra blu rays?


Then there's the 4K vs 8k pic quality difference in real world applications..

Thoughts?
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post #1775 of 3244 Old 12-09-2017, 03:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post

I discussed subwoofers and the MP-50 in-depth with my Lyngdorf rep this week. @noah katz I had you specifically in mind. Lyngdorf's auxiliary subwoofers are intended to be used with Lyngdord boundary subwoofers (upper extension to 800Hz) or subwoofers that extend ≥300Hz. Expect diminishing returns with subs that don't go beyond 200Hz (most don't or are not optimal that high).

Conventional subs should be split from the single LFE out. This means that multiple subs should either be equidistant from the MLP or time/phase aligned manually. This is very easy to do with Room EQ Wizard and a microphone. You can even use the RoomPerfect mic with a USB sound interface or even a built-in sound card. It can be done satisfactory by ear.
I suppose I cannot really "disagree" with Lyngdorf's *intensions*, but I still find that my 4 sub aux setup works very well even when crossed at 80Hz. This is most notable for 2ch music. My front subs are placed just below each of my front speakers and act as very well integrated stereo subs (and yes, I can notice which sub is playing even when crossed at 80Hz). But I also find that this setup results in some quite interesting effects on some movies with a bit of LF in the surround channels, where I can feel the LF energy "move" from front to back, for example. That said, I will also experiment with higher crossover settings.
Furthermore, it is definitely *not* that easy to optimise (time/phase/impulse/gain/frequency align) four subs on the single LFE output manually and without an additional DSP, at least not very well (and unless subs are the same type and equidistant in a symmetrical room). See for example the quite elaborate "multi-sub optimiser" software developed for this purpose: https://www.minidsp.com/applications...-sub-optimizer
Previosly I used MiniDSP DDRC88 to optimise multiple subs, and if I were to connect 4 subs on the single LFE output, I would include such a DSP to optimise the subs before running RP. But with the MP-50 and using the 4 sub aux setup, additional sub optimisation (other than level and distance, followed by RP) is no longer needed, IMHO. I think this is a HUGE advantage of the MP-50 and the main reason why I bought it.

Regards,
Erik

Movie: MP-50, Boulder 865, EC AW-220, Paradigm Persona 9H + Center, Adam Audio S5X-V/S3X-V, SVS 2xPB16, Isovolt 3k, ++
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post #1776 of 3244 Old 12-09-2017, 04:34 AM
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The posting by @Arrowav was verbatim from the Lyngdorf website "News".

Key for the cost is the following: All 8 HDMI inputs and 2 HDMI outputs will be upgraded to 2.0b with 18Gbps bandwidth support.
Other AV updates may limit the 2.0b to certain inputs.
Cost includes shipping to and from Denmark (presumably including insurance).

This should be able to be performed by dealers easy enough, I would presume, which would greatly reduce the cost, but they mentioned this upon release, so it was expected.

How much of the cost is 2-way shipping and insurance? Probably a lot.
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Theater: Lyngdorf MP-50 7.3.4, Sony VW675ES, Revel Ultima Salon2/Voice2/Gem2(4)/Paradigm Be Atmos (4), Mark Levinson amps (53 L/R, 532 Center biamped, 531H side/surrounds), Atmos amp: Sherbourn, Oppo 203, Roku Ultra Premier+, DTV 4k, Velodyne 1812 Signature (LFE), Velodyne DD-15.
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post #1777 of 3244 Old 12-09-2017, 03:28 PM
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After testing the new Trinnov Altitude16 for about a week I must say this: Lyngdorf MP-50 clearly wins in many ways, especially in respect of LF performance\autocalibration.
Al16 has just spoiled my almost perfectly pre-dialed-in 6 subs performance. Even using just 1-point measurement at MLP! And I also had to manually time-align SUB channel with the LCR by adding 6ms delay.
I simply deny to accept that kind of behavior from such a soffisticated piece of AV-equipment
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post #1778 of 3244 Old 12-09-2017, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by logdog333 View Post
After testing the new Trinnov Altitude16 for about a week I must say this: Lyngdorf MP-50 clearly wins in many ways, especially in respect of LF performance\autocalibration.
Al16 has just spoiled my almost perfectly pre-dialed-in 6 subs performance. Even using just 1-point measurement at MLP! And I also had to manually time-align SUB channel with the LCR by adding 6ms delay.
I simply deny to accept that kind of behavior from such a soffisticated piece of AV-equipment
Were you using the default Trinnov Optimizer settings with 1/3 or 1/2 octave correction, and how did you set up and level or time align the subs? Without care, defaults or naive use of the subs as independent outputs may well give you poor results as you posted. Aside from that, the octave correction, number and frequency range for IIR filters for the LFE, setup as independent sub outputs or zoned summated sub response channel(s) with proper level/delay, the degree of boost/attenuation, etc. are flexible. But Trinnov is not a “set and forget” type product, especially for multiple subs. There’s a learning curve involved that’s greater than a set and forget Dirac or RoomPerfect auto run.

The Trinnov has a large degree of flexibility on those settings. I’d contact Trinnov support or better yet, reach out to a trained Trinnov calibrator through a dealer/distributor or otherwise before accepting these settings as what Trinnov can deliver. All I can say is that as a user, I haven’t had results that poor as a final calibration with four subs, let alone needed - or have heard about others needing - to add additional delay to the speaker/sub relationship to improve the splice.

This is OT for an MP-50 thread, but following up on your results and diagnosing the “why” is essential.
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post #1779 of 3244 Old 12-09-2017, 09:18 PM
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Does the Lyngdorf provide for configurable filter orders for the high pass/low pass LFE splice?
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post #1780 of 3244 Old 12-10-2017, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Were you using the default Trinnov Optimizer settings with 1/3 or 1/2 octave correction, and how did you set up and level or time align the subs? Without care, defaults or naive use of the subs as independent outputs may well give you poor results as you posted. Aside from that, the octave correction, number and frequency range for IIR filters for the LFE, setup as independent sub outputs or zoned summated sub response channel(s) with proper level/delay, the degree of boost/attenuation, etc. are flexible. But Trinnov is not a “set and forget” type product, especially for multiple subs. There’s a learning curve involved that’s greater than a set and forget Dirac or RoomPerfect auto run.

The Trinnov has a large degree of flexibility on those settings. I’d contact Trinnov support or better yet, reach out to a trained Trinnov calibrator through a dealer/distributor or otherwise before accepting these settings as what Trinnov can deliver.
My 6 subs are aligned perfectly at MPL regarding time and frequency domain using external 3 channels of DSP and REW. That is what been fed to a Trinnov. I doubt it shoud make the responce worse. But it unfortunately did. Lyngdorf made it even flatter in the same circumstances! It did something else with the bass (rolling-off badly down from 35 Hz) and that was the reason for me to post here in the first place.
And yes, almost no main default setting in Optimiser tab was altered (though I made some A\B testing - no change in regard to LF).
The only way I found to limit Optimizer's affection on bass response was to limit it's abiliy to do any "optimization" 120 Hz and below. Maybe that was when I had to dial the delay of SUB channel afterwards.. but anyway this was the strange result.
It's not the first Trinnov I'm dealing with, so believe me I know what kind of beast it is and what a great set of tools it provides for those who can understand how to engage it That's exactly why I didn't want to spend my time rewiring my LF-chain and feeding 3 separate SUB channels directly to the Al16 - I just know from theory and hands-on experience that it just cant properly handle it (no SFM or RP-like algorythms in place and measurements done). And off course I wanted to compare what would it do with the same start material it had as Lyngdorf MP-50 did.
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post #1781 of 3244 Old 12-11-2017, 09:15 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Rock Danger View Post
So, if you have no media to play on this awesome chipset, then the capabilities of said chipset are irrelevant.

I guess the biggest argument would be 8K support, but can you see that in homes in 5 yrs time? I know what you're saying in new chips just for new chips sake, but new chipsets weren't used originally. Or the money wasn't stumped up for the newer version/s
Totally agree -- I think I've argued this in a few threads already when people have said they are disappointed that the new wizbang thing they want to buy doesn't have 48gb chips in it and will hold off. I typically argue that there's no reason to hold off for 48gb bandwidth that is "useless" (for media, anyway) for quite a few years. While it certainly depends on the severity of the person's upgraditis, in most cases the gear is likely to become obsolete for other reasons before 48gb is "useful". Those reasons may just be the manufacturer will stop adding features to existing kit to sell their newest models.

Of course, if one keeps gear for 5-10 years, and/or thinks 8k (or, more likely, higher fps 4k for gaming) will be useful to them now or in the future, then maybe they should await the 48gb chips and hope that manufacturers release firmware upgrades for features since the bandwidth will be sufficient for years to come. However, when it comes to this stuff, I'd say hope is a bad practice in general.
Quote:
Originally Posted by logdog333 View Post
After testing the new Trinnov Altitude16 for about a week I must say this: Lyngdorf MP-50 clearly wins in many ways, especially in respect of LF performance\autocalibration.
Al16 has just spoiled my almost perfectly pre-dialed-in 6 subs performance. Even using just 1-point measurement at MLP! And I also had to manually time-align SUB channel with the LCR by adding 6ms delay.
I simply deny to accept that kind of behavior from such a soffisticated piece of AV-equipment
Interesting, but I think where the Trinnov wins is in its flexibility. With some time and effort, I'm sure you can get the Trinnov to best or at least equal the MP-50. However, as an automated solution, it sounds like the MP-50's RoomPerfect is impressive.

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post #1782 of 3244 Old 12-11-2017, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
Totally agree -- I think I've argued this in a few threads already when people have said they are disappointed that the new wizbang thing they want to buy doesn't have 48gb chips in it and will hold off. I typically argue that there's no reason to hold off for 48gb bandwidth that is "useless" (for media, anyway) for quite a few years. While it certainly depends on the severity of the person's upgraditis, in most cases the gear is likely to become obsolete for other reasons before 48gb is "useful". Those reasons may just be the manufacturer will stop adding features to existing kit to sell their newest models.

Of course, if one keeps gear for 5-10 years, and/or thinks 8k (or, more likely, higher fps 4k for gaming) will be useful to them now or in the future, then maybe they should await the 48gb chips and hope that manufacturers release firmware upgrades for features since the bandwidth will be sufficient for years to come. However, when it comes to this stuff, I'd say hope is a bad practice in general.

Interesting, but I think where the Trinnov wins is in its flexibility. With some time and effort, I'm sure you can get the Trinnov to best or at least equal the MP-50. However, as an automated solution, it sounds like the MP-50's RoomPerfect is impressive.

Exactly, you can't support something that doesn't exist - you also can't say 'supports HDMI 2.1' without adding which elements it includes because it's voluntary in how many wizbangs you include in said standard. And don't get me wrong, I wan't full 1.21 gigawatt wizbangs too! We naturally feel gipped if we don't get it. My interest is are they advertising 18... (i have say to say wizbangs now) - Are they offering 18 wizbangs for now as that's all you can advertise, and maybe it might go to 48 wizbangs down the line.. ? That's the question for people holding out for the latest things right now.


I've heard the Trinnov sound really good to really bad, it's flexibility allows for more 'subjective' setups... it's an excellent processor used all to often poorly. It's not any better sounding than the MP50 tho, at least not yet!

Also, wizbang.
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post #1783 of 3244 Old 12-11-2017, 10:05 AM
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Have to agree with the above re 18gbs etc.

The Trinnov will never sound better than the Lyngdorf. It’s horses for courses between them. For us, and we supply Trinnov, is the simplicity of set up with the MP-50. RoomPerfect is so easy to use and is in no way outperformed by TEQ. The. There’s the Lyngdorf bass management and philosophy behind woofers and speakers blending.


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post #1784 of 3244 Old 12-11-2017, 10:41 AM
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Does the Lyngdorf provide for configurable filter orders for the high pass/low pass LFE splice?
Lyngdorf did not include the ability to configure active crossover/bi-amping in the MP-50. This ability exists in the 2ch Lyngdorf products.
Quote:
Filter Type
Filter Type is only available when Routing has been setup.
It is possible to choose from two different Filter Types in this menu.
LiRi: (Linkwitz Riley) 2, 4 or 8 order.
Butw: (Butterworth) 1, 2 or 4 order.
I do believe RoomPerfect has these at its disposal but it is transparent to the user. It shouldn't be too difficult to reverse engineer though.
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The Trinnov will never sound better than the Lyngdorf. It’s horses for courses between them. For us, and we supply Trinnov, is the simplicity of set up with the MP-50. RoomPerfect is so easy to use and is in no way outperformed by TEQ. There’s the Lyngdorf bass management and philosophy behind woofers and speakers blending.
Rich, never say never. I agree in regards to an out-of-the-box auto-cal. But in the hands of a trained expert Trinnov and even Dirac have greater manual control than RoomPerfect.

If Lyngdorf were to add "Routing" to the MP-50 I would be more likely to agree that that "in the right hands" neither Trinnov EQ/Optimizer and RoomPerfect would pull away. As it stands now Trinnov is much more capable (especially in regards to active multi-amplification).

Spoiler alert. @RUR has the perfect use case scenario to bare this out (I will let him comment if he wishes). Perhaps I can arrange carrying my MP-50 over to see how it compares. However, I would be much more confident with a Lyngdorf with active routing (TDAI-2170). However, maybe I can convince him that matrixed wides and Auro3D heights effectively adds dimensions to music listening.
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Exactly, you can't support something that doesn't exist - you also can't say 'supports HDMI 2.1' without adding which elements it includes because it's voluntary in how many wizbangs you include in said standard. And don't get me wrong, I wan't full 1.21 gigawatt wizbangs too! We naturally feel gipped if we don't get it. My interest is are they advertising 18... (i have say to say wizbangs now) - Are they offering 18 wizbangs for now as that's all you can advertise, and maybe it might go to 48 wizbangs down the line.. ? That's the question for people holding out for the latest things right now.


I've heard the Trinnov sound really good to really bad, it's flexibility allows for more 'subjective' setups... it's an excellent processor used all to often poorly. It's not any better sounding than the MP50 tho, at least not yet!

Also, wizbang.
LOL -- and as for the 18gb/48gb wizzbang advertisements, I'd say if the unit had 48gb chips, it's be advertised as such, if they don't call out 48gb, I'd have to assume the chips are 18gb. I don't see any manufacturer "unleashing" the full 48gb out of a chip later, it either is or isn't capable; it's a hardware difference that, IMO, would be advertised.

Interesting thoughts on the Trinnov. I am still looking hard at the JBL incarnation (SDP-75) and wondering if I want to be in that price bracket or just try the MP-50. I have M2s, so the benefit of the JBL (eventually, and supposedly) is I can ditch the external processing in my Crown amps and do it all in the processor (where I think it belongs).
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post #1786 of 3244 Old 12-11-2017, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Lyngdorf did not include the ability to configure active crossover/bi-amping in the MP-50. This ability exists in the 2ch Lyngdorf products.
I do believe RoomPerfect has these at its disposal but it is transparent to the user. It shouldn't be too difficult to reverse engineer though.

Rich, never say never. I agree in regards to an out-of-the-box auto-cal. But in the hands of a trained expert Trinnov and even Dirac have greater manual control than RoomPerfect.

If Lyngdorf were to add "Routing" to the MP-50 I would be more likely to agree that that "in the right hands" neither Trinnov EQ/Optimizer and RoomPerfect would pull away. As it stands now Trinnov is much more capable (especially in regards to active multi-amplification).

Spoiler alert. @RUR has the perfect use case scenario to bare this out (I will let him comment if he wishes). Perhaps I can arrange carrying my MP-50 over to see how it compares. However, I would be much more confident with a Lyngdorf with active routing (TDAI-2170). However, maybe I can convince him that matrixed wides and Auro3D heights effectively adds dimensions to music listening.


Hi Marc,

Not going to disagree with you there. Waiting to do my Trinnov calibration course. But what I will say is, I have heard the various Trinnov countless times in countless systems and have never heard one sound better than the Lyngdorf. Yes the bigger Trinnovs have a huge channel count and if that’s what you want then that’s the definite way to go. The MP-50 is very similar to the P200 and for me the SL systems outperform anything I have ever heard.

I’ve heard Dirac and TEQ sound crap in the past, set up by trained calibrators. Never heard this with RP🧐


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post #1787 of 3244 Old 12-11-2017, 10:56 AM
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LOL -- and as for the 18gb/48gb wizzbang advertisements, I'd say if the unit had 48gb chips, it's be advertised as such, if they don't call out 48gb, I'd have to assume the chips are 18gb. I don't see any manufacturer "unleashing" the full 48gb out of a chip later, it either is or isn't capable; it's a hardware difference that, IMO, would be advertised.

Interesting thoughts on the Trinnov. I am still looking hard at the JBL incarnation (SDP-75) and wondering if I want to be in that price bracket or just try the MP-50. I have M2s, so the benefit of the JBL (eventually, and supposedly) is I can ditch the external processing in my Crown amps and do it all in the processor (where I think it belongs).

I dunno, I get your point but still would like idea of more wizbangs for some imaginary peace of mind. I'll find out if it taps out at 18wizbangs.

The JBL synthesis trinnov thing is so my favourite trinnov thing and my second favourite system - no idea what JBL speakers were in it but it was nice and fat sounding. To split hairs the MP50 is more realistic.. but potato, tomato.. horses for porches etc.
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post #1788 of 3244 Old 12-11-2017, 11:01 AM
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LOL -- and as for the 18gb/48gb wizzbang advertisements, I'd say if the unit had 48gb chips, it's be advertised as such, if they don't call out 48gb, I'd have to assume the chips are 18gb. I don't see any manufacturer "unleashing" the full 48gb out of a chip later, it either is or isn't capable; it's a hardware difference that, IMO, would be advertised.
My take is that 18gb is absolutely required in anything that's shipping today, but 48gb would be wasted, drive the cost up, and would most likely have issues down the road that would require hardware changes anyway.

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Interesting thoughts on the Trinnov. I am still looking hard at the JBL incarnation (SDP-75) and wondering if I want to be in that price bracket or just try the MP-50. I have M2s, so the benefit of the JBL (eventually, and supposedly) is I can ditch the external processing in my Crown amps and do it all in the processor (where I think it belongs).
I'm in a similar situation. The JBL SDP-75 would have some similar benefits for my Revel Ultima2 series speakers, but it's difficult to justify the extra cost, especially knowing that the configuration would be a LOT more complicated to get right without paying someone to do it for me (and then having to pay them again each time I make anything other than a trivial change to the system).

But until at least one of these options (Trinnov / JBL or Lyngdorf, that is) starts shipping with 18gb HDMI, I won't even consider buying either of them. If my current Denon pre-pro died today, I would probably go with either an Anthem AVM60 or Marantz AV8802 for now.
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post #1789 of 3244 Old 12-11-2017, 11:11 AM
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Have to agree with the above re 18gbs etc.

The Trinnov will never sound better than the Lyngdorf. It’s horses for courses between them. For us, and we supply Trinnov, is the simplicity of set up with the MP-50. RoomPerfect is so easy to use and is in no way outperformed by TEQ. The. There’s the Lyngdorf bass management and philosophy behind woofers and speakers blending.


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With all due respect, that's a sweeping, absolute statement. Are you a dealer for more recent Trinnov products than TEQ? That was actually an ADA product that incorporated an older version of the Trinnov Optimizer and hardware circa 2011-2012, if memory serves. The most recent developments with the Optimizer for things like bass management/high and low pass slope settings, measurement with respect to crest factor, and under the hood algorithm enhancements have taken place on the Altitude product line in particular.

I won't argue that a "measure to 99% Room Knowledge, including random measurement positions" in a relatively small number of measurements, hit "click" and compute filters is easier to use than the Optimizer. But a large number of Trinnov settings are user configurable, as I indicated in a previous post on this thread a few days ago, and/or under the touch of a trained calibrator. Sure, it's easy to ride a bike than drive a car, and that may be fine for where you want to go, but which can outperform the other in a head to head test to travel 150 miles to your destination?

One can argue calibration philosophies, but I would like to see some evidence beyond word of mouth that Lyngdorf offers something for speaker/sub integration to optimize the delay at a specific crossover. For example, a pre/post calibration measurement in REW with no smoothing in the 15 to 300 Hz range, and 55 to 105 db on the Y axis, with waterfalls or spectrograms to access what's happening with ringing/bass decay. I can do that on my Altitude - measure using the computed levels and delays and turn off acoustic correction to then compare in REW.

Not saying that the MP-50 isn't just fine for Marc or a rave review/push product for you or Arrow, of course. But in my opinion the MP-50 is still a relative budget/value proposition compared to the capabilities of an Altitude with Trinnov Optimizer, its degree of flexibility to upmix to arrays or render to very specific numbers of 3D audio channels beyond a select superset, or to run an active (n-way) crossover setup. It also offers PEQ for "before the Optimizer" or speaker-specific pre-EQ settings, not to mention native sample rate processing. Granted it's not for everyone, even starting with an Altitude 16 at a $15k+ price point, but at best the MP-50 holds its own compared to those (objective) capabilities the ephemeral issue of "sound quality". And there's nothing wrong with that.

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Interesting, but I think where the Trinnov wins is in its flexibility. With some time and effort, I'm sure you can get the Trinnov to best or at least equal the MP-50. However, as an automated solution, it sounds like the MP-50's RoomPerfect is impressive.
I'm still a little confused about why logdog333 (whose post you're referring to) has his issue with LFE...I'm still thinking he's got some Optimizer or added PEQ setting on the Altitude that needs tweaking for his system, or addressing how he's got his LFE configured within the Altitude. For one thing, those 3 LFEs he referred to - are they still three separate LFE/sub channels on the Altitude or has he already integrated the 6 subs, broken over 3 input channels, into a single LFE input into the Trinnov? Or possibly related to measurement level or the speaker configuration setup (which does have a learning curve)? But that's a subject for Trinnov support or calibrator help, and well outside of the scope of an MP-50 thread.

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post #1791 of 3244 Old 12-11-2017, 11:50 AM
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With all due respect, that's a sweeping, absolute statement. Are you a dealer for more recent Trinnov products than TEQ? That was actually an ADA product that incorporated an older version of the Trinnov Optimizer and hardware circa 2011-2012, if memory serves. The most recent developments with the Optimizer for things like bass management/high and low pass slope settings, measurement with respect to crest factor, and under the hood algorithm enhancements have taken place on the Altitude product line in particular.



I won't argue that a "measure to 99% Room Knowledge, including random measurement positions" in a relatively small number of measurements, hit "click" and compute filters is easier to use than the Optimizer. But a large number of Trinnov settings are user configurable, as I indicated in a previous post on this thread a few days ago, and/or under the touch of a trained calibrator. Sure, it's easy to ride a bike than drive a car, and that may be fine for where you want to go, but which can outperform the other in a head to head test to travel 150 miles to your destination?



One can argue calibration philosophies, but I would like to see some evidence beyond word of mouth that Lyngdorf offers something for speaker/sub integration to optimize the delay at a specific crossover. For example, a pre/post calibration measurement in REW with no smoothing in the 15 to 300 Hz range, and 55 to 105 db on the Y axis, with waterfalls or spectrograms to access what's happening with ringing/bass decay. I can do that on my Altitude - measure using the computed levels and delays and turn off acoustic correction to then compare in REW.



Not saying that the MP-50 isn't just fine for Marc or a rave review/push product for you or Arrow, of course. But in my opinion the MP-50 is still a relative budget/value proposition compared to the capabilities of an Altitude with Trinnov Optimizer, its degree of flexibility to upmix to arrays or render to very specific numbers of 3D audio channels beyond a select superset, or to run an active (n-way) crossover setup. It also offers PEQ for "before the Optimizer" or speaker-specific pre-EQ settings, not to mention native sample rate processing. Granted it's not for everyone, even starting with an Altitude 16 at a $15k+ price point, but at best the MP-50 holds its own compared to those (objective) capabilities the ephemeral issue of "sound quality". And there's nothing wrong with that.


We supply the current Trinnov offerings.

I think they are absolutely fantastic but you need a good calibrator to set it up correctly. Sometimes less is more. I’m not saying Lyngdorf is better for one moment but nor are the Trinnovs necessarily. The Trinnovs offer a ridiculous amount of flexibility but you have to know what you are doing to get the best out of them. They are my favourite standalone processor along with the Lyngdorf.

It’s a case of different horses for courses. One can’t compare a 32 channel processor to the Lyngdorf as that is a different beast speaker count wise etc. Trinnov16/MP-50 will be down to the individuals preference.




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post #1792 of 3244 Old 12-11-2017, 11:58 AM
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We supply the current Trinnov offerings.

I think they are absolutely fantastic but you need a good calibrator to set it up correctly. Sometimes less is more. I’m not saying Lyngdorf is better for one moment but nor are the Trinnovs necessarily. The Trinnovs offer a ridiculous amount of flexibility but you have to know what you are doing to get the best out of them. They are my favourite standalone processor along with the Lyngdorf.

It’s a case of different horses for courses. One can’t compare a 32 channel processor to the Lyngdorf as that is a different beast speaker count wise etc. Trinnov16/MP-50 will be down to the individuals preference.

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I’d agree with all of that. The MP-50 is a different value proposition compared to the A16 regardless, depending on what the buyer considers to be value.
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post #1793 of 3244 Old 12-11-2017, 12:09 PM
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Lyngdorf MP-50 | 12 Channel AV Processor; 9.1.6 with matrixed Wides and Top Middles

Agreed.

I think the Trinnov16 is fantastic and priced at a very competitive price point. The Trinnov16 retails for £15k and the Lyngdorf MP-50 £11,995. Not that much in it and I wouldn’t be surprised in a price increase with the new Hdmi board being released for the MP-50.

At this level and a fair bit above it’s a 2 horse race between the two.


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I dunno, I get your point but still would like idea of more wizbangs for some imaginary peace of mind. I'll find out if it taps out at 18wizbangs.

The JBL synthesis trinnov thing is so my favourite trinnov thing and my second favourite system - no idea what JBL speakers were in it but it was nice and fat sounding. To split hairs the MP50 is more realistic.. but potato, tomato.. horses for porches etc.
I would guess it absolutely taps out at 18gb of wizzbang power.

There's a reasonable price difference between the SDP-75 and MP-50, so...it's going to be an interesting decision on my part. The other big part is DIY (MP-50) vs. hire someone to eek the most out of the unit. That's a cost I'll also have to factor in.
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My take is that 18gb is absolutely required in anything that's shipping today, but 48gb would be wasted, drive the cost up, and would most likely have issues down the road that would require hardware changes anyway.


I'm in a similar situation. The JBL SDP-75 would have some similar benefits for my Revel Ultima2 series speakers, but it's difficult to justify the extra cost, especially knowing that the configuration would be a LOT more complicated to get right without paying someone to do it for me (and then having to pay them again each time I make anything other than a trivial change to the system).

But until at least one of these options (Trinnov / JBL or Lyngdorf, that is) starts shipping with 18gb HDMI, I won't even consider buying either of them. If my current Denon pre-pro died today, I would probably go with either an Anthem AVM60 or Marantz AV8802 for now.
Agree, mostly, about 18gb/48gb assessment. However, for a processor that did everything else well, assuming you don't care about an OSD, I'd probably accept < 18gb and buy an HD Fury AVR-key and HDMI switch. Fortunately, my guess is that the JBL unit will be upgraded with the same board that's becoming available for the Trinnov and, obviously, the MP-50 is getting there, too.
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Agreed.

I think the Trinnov16 is fantastic and priced at a very competitive price point. The Trinnov16 retails for £15k and the Lyngdorf MP-50 £11,995. Not that much in it and I wouldn’t be surprised in a price increase with the new Hdmi board being released for the MP-50.

At this level and a fair bit above it’s a 2 horse race between the two.


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For me, it's more about DIY vs. hiring someone as I said above. I think that a pro can eek out every little bit of performance from a Trinnov. However, there's not much they can do with an MP-50 besides make sure it didn't mess anything up and maybe shove around some speakers to make RP's life easier. The Trinnov can just do so much more, but the price difference doesn't stop at the hardware since you'll need someone to tweak it (or...what's your time worth, and probably a lot of it to learn the thing -- I'll pay someone, lol).
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post #1795 of 3244 Old 12-11-2017, 12:50 PM
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Agreed.

I think the Trinnov16 is fantastic and priced at a very competitive price point. The Trinnov16 retails for £15k and the Lyngdorf MP-50 £11,995. Not that much in it and I wouldn’t be surprised in a price increase with the new Hdmi board being released for the MP-50.

At this level and a fair bit above it’s a 2 horse race between the two.


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YMMV, but I wouldn’t count out ATI/Datasat. Datasat has fallen out of favor by some due to a lack of > 11 channel rendering support, glacial upgrade to Atmos and DTS:X, and the price point for the RS20i, as well as the cost of upgrades, being a relatively poor value compared to Trinnov or other higher-end like the MP-50. The LS10 is cheaper, and now has Dirac like its sibling, but doesn’t offer channel array support, digital outs or more than two sub outputs among other things.

However, the brand has historically had a strong dealer network and enthusiasts, and ATI is a smart company about managing its products and trying to keep up to date. There’s also hints they’ll make the Datasats able to be user-calibrated.

BTW it’s not that a user can’t calibrate Trinnov; just that you need pro help to begin to get the most out of it unless you have previous product experience or have close friends that do. The more esoteric the setup, the more the case. A dedicated enthusiast like Rur or myself can do more on our own than many users, but even there you want an expert lifeline available.

EDIT: you'll notice that I didn't mentioned StormAudio in the "horse race". That's because to date, it hasn't made much appearance beyond product reviewers like imagic and dealers testing it out. Especially since the company has spun off from Auro, it remains to be seen how quickly actual ISP products will be in consumer (or more to the point, custom integrator) hands. In theory their ISP AVR is a nice all-in-one product with Dirac, matrixing for >11 add'l channels pending future upgrades, and 12 200W Class D amps, and it's supposed to support XLR output board upgrades, but as a new company that's already spent at least three years in development, the proof is in the pudding beyond a glowing review on AVS and pictures of processor boards from CEDIA. At least for now...

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post #1796 of 3244 Old 12-11-2017, 02:05 PM
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I'm still a little confused about why logdog333 (whose post you're referring to) has his issue with LFE...I'm still thinking he's got some Optimizer or added PEQ setting on the Altitude that needs tweaking for his system, or addressing how he's got his LFE configured within the Altitude. For one thing, those 3 LFEs he referred to - are they still three separate LFE/sub channels on the Altitude or has he already integrated the 6 subs, broken over 3 input channels, into a single LFE input into the Trinnov? Or possibly related to measurement level or the speaker configuration setup (which does have a learning curve)? But that's a subject for Trinnov support or calibrator help, and well outside of the scope of an MP-50 thread.
Yes, it was fed with 1 (one) pre-aligned and pre-EQed LFE channel which further splits it 3 channels (each of 2 symetrically located subs: 4 in the screen baffle wall, 2 in the back wall).
Yeah, I had to tweak the settings after I measured and realized I have a mess in LF domain. The only way to fix it was limiting Optimiser to do anything below 120Hz - period. As well as to add 2 bands of PEQ where were non needed with Yamaha!
Be sure I'll write with all the issues and bugs I found to Trinnov via my distributor. Everything is captured with REW and a whole bunch of screenshots and off course exported PDFs as well as a presets.
I damn know what I'm doing and what kind of sound I want to get our of the system I have. I know how it sounded with other Pre\Pros (from Yamaha to Lyngdorf).
You could count all the people here in Russia who knows how to approach Trinnov by the fingers of your one arm. So I guess I can call myself a Calibrator with 3 Trinnov dedicated rooms done

By the way STILL nobody in this thread except your humble servant and arisholm has done nothing to examine what the heck does MP-50 with the the bass balow 35 Hz! And I strongly believe it's very importand to check after every RC system, especially if you call yourself a Professional Calibrator!

Another question regarding the subj. Does anyone have quite obvious hissing sound from all the outputs when your speaker's sensetivity is at least 94 dB?? I had on my test unit and it was another big question and an issue.. All that stuff was sent to Lyngdorf via my distributor as well off course.

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Hello!

Guys I am on the road to upgrade mine McIntosh MX122... Not very happy with that one btw!...

I had at my place MX160 and I am very happy with audio quality step up after MX122... But when I start read about it I found thanks to you that it is almost same as MP50... But almost with twice bigger retail price...

I wanna ask if someone knows, or already had tested MP50 and MX160... I am interested in sound quality... Worse it to pay alsmost twice for MX160...

I cant take MP50 for a test like I did with MX160 so I ask you I have Sonus Faber Olympica Set (looking forward for Amati Tradition) with MC207 and MC452.

Looking for answer.
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post #1798 of 3244 Old 12-12-2017, 03:16 AM
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LOL -- and as for the 18gb/48gb wizzbang advertisements, I'd say if the unit had 48gb chips, it's be advertised as such, if they don't call out 48gb, I'd have to assume the chips are 18gb. I don't see any manufacturer "unleashing" the full 48gb out of a chip later, it either is or isn't capable; it's a hardware difference that, IMO, would be advertised.

Interesting thoughts on the Trinnov. I am still looking hard at the JBL incarnation (SDP-75) and wondering if I want to be in that price bracket or just try the MP-50. I have M2s, so the benefit of the JBL (eventually, and supposedly) is I can ditch the external processing in my Crown amps and do it all in the processor (where I think it belongs).

Not necessarily - you can only advertise it as 2.1 unless it fully supports all of 2.1. Currently the chips are being marketed as 18Gbps as that is the current standard, this does not necessarily mean they max out at that, so you never know.

Try an MP50, the Trinnov sounds no better even when not set up by a dibbling idiot - it has more wizbangs tho.. not sure if there's any advantage outside the 16ch support on the Altitude 16. Do you think in a bigass room you could tell the difference between the overheads matrixed and dedicated (so to speak) ? I'd not like to take that blind test.

I've heard the Storm a couple of times as well, probably hear it again in Feb, it's good but meh...
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Not necessarily - you can only advertise it as 2.1 unless it fully supports all of 2.1. Currently the chips are being marketed as 18Gbps as that is the current standard, this does not necessarily mean they max out at that, so you never know.

Try an MP50, the Trinnov sounds no better even when not set up by a dibbling idiot - it has more wizbangs tho.. not sure if there's any advantage outside the 16ch support on the Altitude 16. Do you think in a bigass room you could tell the difference between the overheads matrixed and dedicated (so to speak) ? I'd not like to take that blind test.

I've heard the Storm a couple of times as well, probably hear it again in Feb, it's good but meh...
You may be right, but the spec does say bandwidth "up to 48gb", so. The Sony projectors only have 13gb chips but can do other HDMI 2.0 things, they don't support 18gb, but they are "HDMI 2.0".

Honestly, it's all a mess. Given the chipsets are not yet common, and presently, to the best of my knowledge, there's no certification suite available, I wouldn't bank on anything being 48gb capable at the moment, despite its labeling.

As for the MP-50 vs. Trinnov -- I'm thinking about giving the MP-50 a go since it is seemingly more user friendly. But, I still have time to wait it out. Thus, I'll probably also see what Emotiva has up their sleeves. It's nice not being in a rush. It also allows me to divide my budget up differently and maybe spend more on a projector if I spend less on the AVR.

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post #1800 of 3244 Old 12-12-2017, 07:33 AM
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^ My understanding is that pretty much everything with HDMI 2.1 is considered "optional", so a company could claim their product is HDMI 2.1 even though it only supports 18 Gbps bandwidth or doesn't include the eARC feature, and so on. So the consumer will need to continue to read the fine print to figure out what the product can actually handle in order to make an informed purchase decision.
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