Lyngdorf MP-50 | 12 Channel AV Processor; 9.1.6 with matrixed Wides and Top Middles - Page 74 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2191 of 2972 Old 03-17-2018, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Thanks, Roger, but I'm not willing to risk $66 for what may prove to be as similarly vague as what I'm used to, or over my head; I'm a mechanical engineer, not electrical/computer/DSP.
It's a pretty readable paper. Not much math.

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The first part is an invalid comparison, as most RC's that I'm aware of allow multiple measurement positions, and calling their correction 3D when the mic's positions aren't known seems a bit iffy.
Seemed a bit odd to me too -- the papers were published in 2007, FWIW. But no matter -- the issue at hand is how Room Perfect works, and the papers give insights on that.

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Roger, have you heard RP, and if so, what did you think?
No, have never had the pleasure. Am keen to hear the whole MP-50 experience.

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post #2192 of 2972 Old 03-17-2018, 10:27 PM
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I used Audyssey XT-32 for years and years with the top Denons and Marantz, I even bought Dirac, but I could never get my sound right in my HT. I did massive acoustics to tame the bass, spent a fortune, learned REW tried XTZ, but I was never ever satisfied with the sound.

I finally after years of frustration moved to the MX-160 and Mac amps (2x 7 channels). I had heard of RP but knew nothing about it. I never ever thought I would get any improvment in my room. The first night I installed the system the sound was amazing, and I hadent even done the RP calibration. It sounded SO GOOD without any EQ I couldnt believe my ears!!!! I didnt even bother doing the EQ until the next night as all my old problems were gone, overnight. I did RP the next night and my fantastic sound just got better. I was over the moon....

I made a promise to myself I would never take another reading, my XTZ and REW has never been opened from 3 or so years ago. When I used REW and XTZ I was always depressed and unhappy, however there was such a massive change in the sound with the Mac gear and RP I was finally happy. It was time to stop taking readings....I dont know what the magic source is and I dont care.....

Years ago I was on the Audyssey thread every day trying to fix my sound, thank GOD thats all over!!! I dont even know if all those people are still there talking about it

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post #2193 of 2972 Old 03-17-2018, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
No, have never had the pleasure. Am keen to hear the whole MP-50 experience.
I was supposed to have Roger over about a month ago to hear the MP-50 and Seaton F18s, but got the flu. It's too bad DPLII isn't happening.

If you guys haven't caught wind. I have sold my Seaton F18s (4) [and other gear] in order to finance what should be a SIGNIFICANT sonic upgrade to my media room. Funk Audio 12.2HP horns, 8.5P center (based on 8.6P), 3.4D Wides & Surrounds and four 15.h horn-loaded subs.

This system should play at reference in a park. I plan to blow Roger's socks off come May!
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post #2194 of 2972 Old 03-18-2018, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Finally this provides some hard facts, thank you!
And what they write is interesting: how room gain and power response is accounted for in the calculated target curve and gain limiting, FIR filter design, etc.
This helps me understand why I should not try to be "careful" when doing the global RP measurements.
And no "active" phase adjustment going on as far as I can tell, but avoiding to make a mess of it when changing amplitude..

I paid 125USD to become an AES-member but there is a lot of interesting papers in the library so well worth it for geeks
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post #2195 of 2972 Old 03-18-2018, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by arisholm View Post
This helps me understand why I should not try to be "careful" when doing the global RP measurements.
Can you provide more detail about what you mean by this?
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post #2196 of 2972 Old 03-18-2018, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by arisholm View Post
Finally this provides some hard facts, thank you!
And what they write is interesting: how room gain and power response is accounted for in the calculated target curve and gain limiting, FIR filter design, etc.
This helps me understand why I should not try to be "careful" when doing the global RP measurements.
And no "active" phase adjustment going on as far as I can tell, but avoiding to make a mess of it when changing amplitude..

I paid 125USD to become an AES-member but there is a lot of interesting papers in the library so well worth it for geeks
There should also be a couple more RP papers from presentations.

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post #2197 of 2972 Old 03-18-2018, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
Can you provide more detail about what you mean by this?
I guess it is much better to read the papers rather than relying on my interpretation, but you want to measure at (very) random room positions as this "minimizes the probability of measuring at a notch in all positions at frequencies of room modes."
I guess the white papers already instruct us to do this but now I understand better the rationale, how it is used to calculate upper and lower bounds on gain adjustments, and that it will not cause suboptimal results even if single positions measure badly (on the contrary).
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post #2198 of 2972 Old 03-18-2018, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Thanks, Roger, but I'm not willing to risk $66 for what may prove to be as similarly vague as what I'm used to, or over my head; I'm a mechanical engineer, not electrical/computer/DSP.
They say you can find just about anything on the internet (I hope I'm not offending anyone) so I thought I'd share these links I found...

Fully Automatic Loudspeaker-Room Adaptation - The RoomPerfect System

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...8dmeNDoTImREXX

Natural Timbre in Room Correction Systems (Part II)

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...453evuBHZvTy0_
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post #2199 of 2972 Old 03-18-2018, 01:24 PM
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Thanks! Noticed the two links are for the identical paper (with a small difference in the academic reviewer). Was this your intention?

Theater: Lyngdorf MP-50 7.3.4, Sony VW675ES, Revel Ultima Salon2/Voice2/Gem2(4)/Paradigm Be Atmos (4), Mark Levinson amps (53 L/R, 532 Center biamped, 531H side/surrounds), Atmos amp: Sherbourn, Oppo 203, Roku Ultra Premier+, DTV 4k, Velodyne 1812 Signature (LFE), Velodyne DD-15.
FR: Marantz 8802A (and/or 7703), Sony XBR 4k TV, Meridian A350 LCR onwall, Dali in-wall surrounds, Atmos Martin Logan in-ceiling, REL sub, Oppo 105 (and/or 103), DTV, AppleTV, Sony 4k Media Server.
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post #2200 of 2972 Old 03-18-2018, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by normandia View Post
Thanks! Noticed the two links are for the identical paper (with a small difference in the academic reviewer). Was this your intention?
Sorry, I didn't actually notice that the two different links (I posted) are for the same paper

My bad.. I thought the second link was for the "Part II" of the article that Roger posted.

My intent was to offer a way to save a few dollars to anyone wanting to read the article but not necessarily interested in full subscription to something only for this one article.
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post #2201 of 2972 Old 03-18-2018, 01:49 PM
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No problem...you saved me a full subscription...although I planned to check at work on Tuesday to see if we had a subscription.
Really appreciate the article...but I didn't see Room Perfect when conducting a search.
This is dated 2018 so it is up to date!

Theater: Lyngdorf MP-50 7.3.4, Sony VW675ES, Revel Ultima Salon2/Voice2/Gem2(4)/Paradigm Be Atmos (4), Mark Levinson amps (53 L/R, 532 Center biamped, 531H side/surrounds), Atmos amp: Sherbourn, Oppo 203, Roku Ultra Premier+, DTV 4k, Velodyne 1812 Signature (LFE), Velodyne DD-15.
FR: Marantz 8802A (and/or 7703), Sony XBR 4k TV, Meridian A350 LCR onwall, Dali in-wall surrounds, Atmos Martin Logan in-ceiling, REL sub, Oppo 105 (and/or 103), DTV, AppleTV, Sony 4k Media Server.
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post #2202 of 2972 Old 03-18-2018, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clark_kent View Post
They say you can find just about anything on the internet (I hope I'm not offending anyone) so I thought I'd share these links I found...

Fully Automatic Loudspeaker-Room Adaptation - The RoomPerfect System

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...8dmeNDoTImREXX

Natural Timbre in Room Correction Systems (Part II)

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...453evuBHZvTy0_
The links do not point to the intended papers. But wow I wonder how much time the authors spent on this literature review with 281 references on the topic of room correction... Will require quite a bit of effort to read as well Not THAT related to RoomPerfect although it is mentioned in 3 or 4 out of the 281 referenced papers. Anyway, it clearly illustrates that there is no silver bullet in room correction either, and that many smart people have been thinking about how to improve sound in a room for the past 40 or so years. And not surprisingly there has been some progress since Jan A. Pedersen first developed ABC for Bang&Olufsen around 2003 and RoomPerfect for Lyngdorf around 2005-2007...

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post #2203 of 2972 Old 03-18-2018, 05:41 PM
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^^Sounds like a fun project for many PhD Thesis...or a life long career!
I once designed and built a Theater with double walls and staggered studs with no connections between the walls. It had seating for 15 with 3 raised rows.

Applying and extending that concept with the Theater walls being fully transmissive to low to mid frequencies, and the inner cavity full of highly sound absorbing material to trap the sound and one could (theoretically) eliminate wall reflections. Now do that to the floor and ceiling and voila. No or very little RC needed? There wouldn't be any room modes for bass (long wavelengths) either (as the Boundary conditions are not fixed end points) and the high frequencies don't matter as much as they are very directional.

The transparent aluminum was the key missing ingredient

Back to the real world now.
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Theater: Lyngdorf MP-50 7.3.4, Sony VW675ES, Revel Ultima Salon2/Voice2/Gem2(4)/Paradigm Be Atmos (4), Mark Levinson amps (53 L/R, 532 Center biamped, 531H side/surrounds), Atmos amp: Sherbourn, Oppo 203, Roku Ultra Premier+, DTV 4k, Velodyne 1812 Signature (LFE), Velodyne DD-15.
FR: Marantz 8802A (and/or 7703), Sony XBR 4k TV, Meridian A350 LCR onwall, Dali in-wall surrounds, Atmos Martin Logan in-ceiling, REL sub, Oppo 105 (and/or 103), DTV, AppleTV, Sony 4k Media Server.
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post #2204 of 2972 Old 03-18-2018, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by normandia View Post
No problem...you saved me a full subscription...although I planned to check at work on Tuesday to see if we had a subscription.
Really appreciate the article...but I didn't see Room Perfect when conducting a search.
This is dated 2018 so it is up to date!
Citation 37:
Quote:
Abildgaard Pedersen, J.; Thomsen, K. Fully automatic loudspeaker-room adaptation—the RoomPerfect system. In Proceedings of the 32nd International Conference of Audio Engineering Society: DSP for loudspeakers, Hillerød, Denmark, 21–23 September 2007.
RoomPerfect is a single word.

If anyone would like to a yearly subscription to the AES, I have a referral code for $25 off. PM me

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post #2205 of 2972 Old 03-18-2018, 11:51 PM
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My apologies Noah. Would you consider taking a commuter flight to LA for a visit to Steinway Lyngdorf?
No problem, Marc, and thanks for the invite, but what I really need to do is hear what RP does in my room.

I've been waiting for the dust to settle on the new HDMI board, which has recently been announced to be an extra-cost option.

Speaking of that, I haven't been keeping up on video tech; can you tell me if the old board suffices if I'm interested in HDR but not 4k?


Re your speaker upgrades, I have to say my first thought was risk of hearing damage, or do you have a huge space to fill?

Also, you'll be giving up ULF for extra SPL at higher freq.


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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
It sounded SO GOOD without any EQ I couldnt believe my ears!!!! I didnt even bother doing the EQ until the next night as all my old problems were gone, overnight. I did RP the next night and my fantastic sound just got better.

I have to say that I find the pre-EQ improvement you noted very perplexing, as I presume there would be no measurable difference in distortion or freq response, and of course no difference in the room's much more significant effects on the latter.

But that aside, how much was the relative additional improvement after running RP?

Noah
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post #2206 of 2972 Old 03-18-2018, 11:55 PM
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I've read the Lyngdorf AES papers, some of which has me scratching my head, and leaves unanswered questions:

> Reproduction of sound in a room always results in an
increased sound pressure level towards lower
frequencies. This is partly a consequence of the lower
absorption found in typical rooms at low frequencies.
However this is natural to the human ear as this
provides the sense of being in a room. Consequently a
room correction system cannot be allowed to remove
this smooth increase in level at low frequencies, also
referred to as the room gain.

Personally, I want to feel like I'm at the event, not like I'm in a room.


I wonder if the missing <30-Hz bass noted by owners can be explained by Figures 4 and 5 and the accompanying text in the first paper:

RP uses the bass cutoff frequency of the measured speakers to calculate a target curve.

This seems to be missing that the cutoff with mains+subwoofers may be much lower; oops?


> The room gain was found to be a result of the changing
absorption, α, and in turn the reverberation time, T60,
which is a function of frequency.

What about cabin/pressure-vessel gain?


I didn't see anything to change my opinion about the Lyngdorf videos claims that their solution has superior timing that delivers correct tight packets of energy (or whatever verbiage they used) .

They didn't address it at all in the papers, and one of their test systems was a standard subwoofer-against-wall/mains-away-from-walls configuration.

How do they deal with the delayed reflections from the mains?

If they did do something of that description, they could prove it w/o spilling their IP beans with before/after impulse response graphs.

Noah
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post #2207 of 2972 Old 03-19-2018, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Personally, I want to feel like I'm at the event, not like I'm in a room.
Then flatten out the bass boost that naturally occurs when a loudspeaker is placed in a room. That's what Audyssey does, though other room correction systems (DiracLive, RoomPerfect, ARCOS) leave the bass boost intact for a more "natural" sound (the subject of the Lyngdorf paper).

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post #2208 of 2972 Old 03-19-2018, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
I didn't see anything to change my opinion about the Lyngdorf videos claims that their solution has superior timing that delivers correct tight packets of energy (or whatever verbiage they used) .

They didn't address it at all in the papers, and one of their test systems was a standard subwoofer-against-wall/mains-away-from-walls configuration.

How do they deal with the delayed reflections from the mains?

If they did do something of that description, they could prove it w/o spilling their IP beans with before/after impulse response graphs.
True, this is not addressed, and my (probably naive) interpretation of the following is that RP mainly attempts to correct the amplitude response (but guided by the avg. power measurements as mentioned before):
"The smoothed filter target, Gsmooth(f), is a real valued function of frequency, i.e. zero phase at all frequencies. <snip>
Here it is important to note that a sound field is 3 dimensional, which means that the phase response changes differently as a function of position when moving in different directions from a listening position. It follows from this, that correcting the complete phase response only makes sense in one point, i.e. 1 dimensional. This is the reason why only the part of the phase response, which corresponds to the amplitude response, should be corrected, i.e. the minimum phase part. This is obtained by employing Homomorphic filtering of the smoothed filter target function performed in Cepstrum domain "

However, by my own measurement I do see quite significant changes (improvements) in the impulse response (as well as a shift in the timing of the initial rise in impulse response - not shown here). Not sure why, and just speculations on my part that RP might be doing something more... See attached "before (red) and after (green)" impulse response graphs of the combined output of front left main + front left sub based on a sweep from 10-500Hz (here I am using the 4 aux sub config, so only the left front corner sub is activated in this case).
It should be noted that my listening room is far from perfect, with some nasty room modes.

Perhaps it is time to stop posting speculations and graphs... apologies in advance and please ignore me if it is not interesting

cheers, Erik
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post #2209 of 2972 Old 03-19-2018, 09:49 AM
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Then flatten out the bass boost that naturally occurs when a loudspeaker is placed in a room.

I don't disagree with what they do, but the reason they give for doing it.



arisholm,

Yes, the paragraph you quoted also caught my attention, but in the end I'm not sure what it describes is any different than what PEQ does to correct response of a linear phase system.

Thanks for graphs; they definitely show improved impulse response.

But are they different than what PEQ or other RC would do?

Noah

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post #2210 of 2972 Old 03-19-2018, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
I didn't say I disagreed with what they do, but the reason they give for doing it.



arisholm,

Yes, the paragraph you quoted also caught my attention, but in the end I'm not sure what it describes is any different than what PEQ does to correct response of a linear phase system.

Thanks for graphs; they definitely show improved impulse response.

But are they different than what PEQ or other RC would do?
As to your question about an HDMI board, it looks like HDR and 4k are tied together pretty tightly when it comes to home video. You need an updated board that handles full UHD specs as well as HDR pass-through for not only HDR10, but Dolby Vision (high and low latency versions), and HLG. HDR10+ may or may not be realized until HDMI 2.1 is ready for launch.

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!
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post #2211 of 2972 Old 03-19-2018, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

arisholm,

Yes, the paragraph you quoted also caught my attention, but in the end I'm not sure what it describes is any different than what PEQ does to correct response of a linear phase system.

Thanks for graphs; they definitely show improved impulse response.

But are they different than what PEQ or other RC would do?
Yes that is a very good question! I have not done a direct comparison... Would require some work and for example adding my MiniDSP + Dirac back in the loop, but with no other changes... Maybe one day, if I get lot's of votes :-)
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
I don't disagree with what they do...
"What they do" is keep the influence of the room when creating a default target curve. To which you responded: "I want to feel like I'm at the event, not like I'm in a room."

Do you want it to sound like it's in a room or not like it's in a room? You can't simultaneously agree and disagree with what they do.

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post #2213 of 2972 Old 03-19-2018, 10:28 AM
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Thanks, Dan; that's what I was afraid of.


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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
As to your question about an HDMI board, it looks like HDR and 4k are tied together pretty tightly when it comes to home video. You need an updated board that handles full UHD specs as well as HDR pass-through for not only HDR10, but Dolby Vision (high and low latency versions), and HLG. HDR10+ may or may not be realized until HDMI 2.1 is ready for launch.


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Do you want it to sound like it's in a room or not like it's in a room? You can't simultaneously agree and disagree with what they do.

True, but I repeat, I can agree with what they do and disagree with their reason for doing it.

It may even be true that preserving the room gain curve gives the most perceptually realistic reproduction of the recording, but that's not what they said.

Noah
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post #2214 of 2972 Old 03-19-2018, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
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I can agree with what they do and disagree with their reason for doing it.
But you don't agree with what they do. The low frequency increase in level is due to the room. RP preserves it, making you feel like you're in a room. You said that you don't want to feel like you're in a room. How is that agreeing with what they do?

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post #2215 of 2972 Old 03-19-2018, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
How is that agreeing with what they do?

I like a rising low end a la Harman.

I guess the question then becomes, is the perceptually accurate bass that the Harman curve gives because it preserves the room gain, or is it independent of room size?

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post #2216 of 2972 Old 03-19-2018, 12:12 PM
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I guess the question then becomes, is the perceptually accurate bass that the Harman curve gives because it preserves the room gain, or is it independent of room size?
I doubt you'd see that sort of bass bump when the speaker was played in an anechoic chamber or outdoors. Since it is the room, the curve will change based on the size. The shape of the curve and how much room gain you want to preserve should come down to personal preference.

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post #2217 of 2972 Old 03-19-2018, 12:23 PM
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Another point of confusion about Lyngdorf's graphs is, are they of room gain or of speaker+room gain?

I believe the latter, because most room gain curves I've seen continue to rise down to much lower freq than Lyngdorf shows.
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post #2218 of 2972 Old 03-19-2018, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
I like a rising low end a la Harman.

I guess the question then becomes, is the perceptually accurate bass that the Harman curve gives because it preserves the room gain, or is it independent of room size?
Sure would be cool to create a voicing for the Harman curve. I tried to no avail.
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post #2219 of 2972 Old 03-19-2018, 06:04 PM
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Then flatten out the bass boost that naturally occurs when a loudspeaker is placed in a room.
I think the provided Open Air voicing approximates that. We have cake and can hear it, too!
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post #2220 of 2972 Old 03-19-2018, 06:22 PM
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I think the provided Open Air voicing approximates that. We have cake and can hear it, too!
Wow, the curves in the Open Air link you posted are sure different than the preset curves in the 160. None of our start at 0db. I believe they are all above 0db, like Action+Movie: it starts at 6db.

We also do not have the Open/ Open Air options. I seem to remember they were an option previously, but were switched out for Movie and Action+Movie.
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