Lyngdorf MP-50 | 12 Channel AV Processor; 9.1.6 with matrixed Wides and Top Middles - Page 75 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2221 of 3010 Old 03-19-2018, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by daimler2015 View Post
Sure would be cool to create a voicing for the Harman curve. I tried to no avail.

It's a pretty simple curve; what's the problem?

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post #2222 of 3010 Old 03-19-2018, 07:01 PM
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Isnt the Moller Curve I created the same as the Harman Curve?
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post #2223 of 3010 Old 03-19-2018, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
Isnt the Moller Curve I created the same as the Harman Curve?
This is the one I couldn't figure out. I thought it is the Harman Curve. Maybe Noah can clarify.
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post #2224 of 3010 Old 03-19-2018, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by daimler2015 View Post
This is the one I couldn't figure out. I thought it is the Harman Curve. Maybe Noah can clarify.
That curve seems to violate the "no more than 3dB (some say 6dB) of boost" rule-of-thumb. Is it ok anyway?
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post #2225 of 3010 Old 03-19-2018, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by daimler2015 View Post
This is the one I couldn't figure out. I thought it is the Harman Curve. Maybe Noah can clarify.

I found the attached.

Still, I'd think you could construct the bump in the one you showed with a single PEQ filter.
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post #2226 of 3010 Old 03-19-2018, 08:30 PM
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This is the new curve I made about 2 weeks ago and is what Im now using. Very simple with just one filter, its nice!
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post #2227 of 3010 Old 03-19-2018, 09:24 PM
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These are the ones I am using with the Klipsch La Scala II (L/C/R); Heresy III (Surrounds); THX 525 (Upfiring L/R)
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post #2228 of 3010 Old 03-19-2018, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by daimler2015 View Post
These are the ones I am using with the Klipsch La Scala II (L/C/R); Heresy III (Surrounds); THX 525 (Upfiring L/R)
Forgot to mention, those are 4 separate curves, only one filter per voicing.
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post #2229 of 3010 Old 03-19-2018, 09:36 PM
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As far as I can tell, they're essentially identical.

How do you like them?

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post #2230 of 3010 Old 03-19-2018, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
As far as I can tell, they're essentially identical.

How do you like them?
Like them. Yes, slight difference only in Over Gain and filter gain. Going to try Rappallo's. He is the one who help us all along with the Moller curve (plus he uses horns, as well. I don't think others without horns have as much trouble "taming" their speakers )
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post #2231 of 3010 Old 03-19-2018, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by daimler2015 View Post
Forgot to mention, those are 4 separate curves, only one filter per voicing.
Your curves are very similar to mine, yet I have a bit more gain at the low end of +5. Also I cross over 2000 at 0db and taper right down, doing what the Moller curve teaches.

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post #2232 of 3010 Old 03-19-2018, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daimler2015 View Post
Like them. Yes, slight difference only in Over Gain and filter gain. Going to try Rappallo's. He is the one who help us all along with the Moller curve (plus he uses horns, as well. I don't think others without horns have as much trouble "taming" their speakers )
If you cross over 2000 at 0db like me, you will tame those Klipisch horns even more!
I got rid of my Klipsch and bought three PSA MTM-210s all standing upright behind an AT screen.

I was never happy with the Klipsch I had, too shrill for my taste.
The MTM-210s have dual 10" drivers, now I have warmth and bass.

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post #2233 of 3010 Old 03-19-2018, 11:49 PM
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I made a Harmon curve and dont like it with my horns. The Moller curve is much warmer...
Im sticking with this.
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post #2234 of 3010 Old 03-20-2018, 12:28 AM
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adjusted curves

Murray,

Please review the adjusted curves.
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post #2235 of 3010 Old 03-20-2018, 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by daimler2015 View Post
Murray,

Please review the adjusted curves.
Click on filter 2 then you can see if 2000 is crossing below zero db.

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post #2236 of 3010 Old 03-21-2018, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
I made a Harmon curve and dont like it with my horns. The Moller curve is much warmer...
Im sticking with this.
I’ve been using your curve for music and tweaked to try this one. It’s really good. Have KEF Reference speakers. Thanks again for sharing. This ability on these processors (for me MX160) is amazing to have. SJ
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post #2237 of 3010 Old 03-24-2018, 12:44 AM
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I've been waiting for the dust to settle on the new HDMI board, which has recently been announced to be an extra-cost option.

Speaking of that, I haven't been keeping up on video tech; can you tell me if the old board suffices if I'm interested in HDR but not 4k?
The current board should (IMO) but it doesn't. Neither my PS4 Pro nor Xbox One S will display 1080p60 HDR/WCG through the MP-50. Lyngdorf's answer is that the chipset used does not recognize 1080p HDR/WCG and 2160p60 HDR/WCG 8-bit as valid formats even though the consoles produce them, the displays accept them and other AVPs (Denon & Marantz in my case) pass them.

You either need to wait on the new boards or employ a workaround solution (Oppo, HDFury, Lumagen, etc.)
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Re your speaker upgrades, I have to say my first thought was risk of hearing damage, or do you have a huge space to fill?

Also, you'll be giving up ULF for extra SPL at higher freq.
I actually considered going with the Lyngdorf FR-1s all around. But this is a dedicated multi-row cinema room and not a living room. I feel like the Lyngdorf (not SL) offerings are lifestyle solutions (European lifestyle) and I want bigger and bolder. I am going for high dynamics with very low distortion.

When it is all said and done I won't be giving up anything… not even ULF! Stay tuned.

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Originally Posted by daimler2015 View Post
Sure would be cool to create a voicing for the Harman curve. I tried to no avail.
It's actually pretty simple, just play around with the shelf Qs and you should be able to do it. The easiest way is to start with Action or Action+Movie (which is the preset voicing I like the best for movies) and add/edit the second shelf filter. You shouldn't need more than three filters, two is really enough.

Just tell me how much gain you want in the bass and how you want it to slope down (zero crossing), ands I can build one for you. I'm building a +9dB to -9dB, +6dB to -6dB, +4.5dB to -4.5dB and +3dB to -3dB to try out.

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Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
That curve seems to violate the "no more than 3dB (some say 6dB) of boost" rule-of-thumb. Is it ok anyway?
The MP-50 has plenty of dynamic range in the tank where I don't think the boost matters much. However, I noticed in that there an Overall Gain setting that allows you to shift the voicing up or down so you canA turn any curve into cut-only with 0dB as the high limit. (Has this always been there?).

Here are more curves to try out:
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post #2238 of 3010 Old 03-24-2018, 01:05 AM
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I believe I now have a simple and relatively inexpensive way to have RoomPerfect handle everything except the LFE.

The MP-50 can output HDMI signals with Audio intact (pass-through) via both HDMI 1 and 2 outs. One could use HDMI 2 (set to 1080p) and any HDMI 1.3 or higher AVR or even HDMI 1 through a HDMI 2.0 AVR, gettinf an unprocessed .1 LFE for your miniDSP, iNuke, Jupiter or whatever. This is especially preferable if you use tactile transducers/motion actuators.

I just picked up a Denon X3200 for cheap for this application. This is a full 18Gbps HDMI 2.0b HDCP 2.2 chipset. I will also test a HDMI 1.3 Yamaha RX-V1800. I believe the LFE extraction will work for all Dolby, dts, and Auro3D tracks.

I still contend that with RoomPerfect you should have you bass management woofers along the front wall (preferably in the corners). This could mean full range speakers, boundary woofers, or just LFE subs.

While I await my new speakers, I am setting RoomPerfect up with boundary woofers in the front corners and LFE in the rear. I want to see how RoomPerfect's LFE compares to Audyssey, Dirac, and my own EQing via the Symetrix Jupiter 8.
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post #2239 of 3010 Old 03-24-2018, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
You either need to wait on the new boards or employ a workaround solution (Oppo, HDFury, Lumagen, etc.)

For me an Oppo would be my only video source, not a workaround; so I'm OK w/the current board?



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I believe I now have a simple and relatively inexpensive way to have RoomPerfect handle everything except the LFE.

I guess I'm confused with everything you're doing, but why wouldn't you want RP to handle LFE (unless you mean just to get an unprocessed output for transducers)?

Noah
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post #2240 of 3010 Old 03-24-2018, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
For me an Oppo would be my only video source, not a workaround; so I'm OK w/the current board?
Correct!
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I guess I'm confused with everything you're doing, but why wouldn't you want RP to handle LFE (unless you mean just to get an unprocessed output for transducers)?
Transducers, yes. I also want to see how RoomPerfect's LFE compares to Audyssey, Dirac, and my own EQing via the Symetrix Jupiter 8. RoomPerfect seems to roll off the lowest frequencies.
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post #2241 of 3010 Old 03-24-2018, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Correct!

Great, thanks.



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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Transducers, yes. I also want to see how RoomPerfect's LFE compares to Audyssey, Dirac, and my own EQing via the Symetrix Jupiter 8. RoomPerfect seems to roll off the lowest frequencies.

Will be very interested to see the results.

Will you try to correct the RP rolloff with the voicing tool?

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post #2242 of 3010 Old 03-25-2018, 06:46 AM
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Speaking of transducers, how are folks connecting these? I’ve just split mine from one of my subs as there is no dedicated output. A feature I miss coming from a Denon AVP which had an actual transducer output (sub 3) which you could also control the volume for just that output. SJ
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post #2243 of 3010 Old 03-27-2018, 03:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Correct!

I also want to see how RoomPerfect's LFE compares to Audyssey, Dirac, and my own EQing via the Symetrix Jupiter 8. RoomPerfect seems to roll off the lowest frequencies.
Please post your impressions!
I think it is pretty clear by all the graphs posted here and in other forums that RP does roll off the LF/ULF in most cases, and it is not just in "some" rooms.. One may speculate that this is a result of the room gain measurements and gain limiters RP applies to define a target curve (as described in the 2006 and 2007 AES conference papers). I have also sent my RP calibration files to Lyngdorf a few months ago but they did not offer much of an explanation...
Furthermore, I am not able to fully recover the ULF loss that RP introduces by using voicings, which is proposed as a remedy. Then I have to add about 12 dB at 20Hz even just to make a straight FR down to 20Hz, but I actually prefer a *boost* in the LF, not a straight curve. If I skip RP and use Dirac to correct just my subs (using a MiniDSP DDRC88): I can define a tilted target curve down to 20Hz and then it naturally rolls off slowly below 20Hz (in particular when I use the SVS PB16 subs in sealed mode).. The end result just sounds better (punch/impact & less boomy) than trying to compensate for RP with voicings.
So IMHO it is a shame that I have to skip RP and add another box to get the LF performance I am after, since RP clearly has many other benefits in my room (imaging improvements, superb integration of all channels, etc). But despite all the good qualities of the MP-50 (noise floor, processing options, SQ in general) I am starting to think I should have saved up for a Trinnov (EDIT: ... where I apparently can tweak things the way I want).
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post #2244 of 3010 Old 03-27-2018, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by arisholm View Post
So IMHO it is a shame that I have to skip RP and add another box to get the LF performance I am after...

Can you run RP and then correct the bass afterward w/the miniDSP?

Noah
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post #2245 of 3010 Old 03-27-2018, 12:34 PM
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Can you run RP and then correct the bass afterward w/the miniDSP?
Nope, that does not work as Dirac in that case will see subs that roll off at 30 Hz instead of 15Hz, so it will not attempt to apply (much) gain below 30, a little bit perhaps but the damage is done..
With my 4 SVS subs I have plenty of LF energy, so I don't need it to be boosted, just fixed a bit. In the end I just want to preserve some more of the LF/ULF through the RC. Dirac does that, RP unfortunately does not ;-)

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post #2246 of 3010 Old 03-27-2018, 01:13 PM
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I thought there was more manual control in Dirac, but if not, what about a regular miniDSP that lets you do whatever you want.

I know it's distasteful to use such measures, but it's a shame to give up RP for what is essentially an aesthetic consideration (unless there are side effects).

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post #2247 of 3010 Old 03-27-2018, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
I thought there was more manual control in Dirac, but if not, what about a regular miniDSP that lets you do whatever you want.

I know it's distasteful to use such measures, but it's a shame to give up RP for what is essentially an aesthetic consideration (unless there are side effects).
I suppose the question you have to ask yourself is whether the bass sounds better with the RP frequency/time alignment approach, despite the rolloff effect below 30 Hz. Maybe run some test tones at 16 Hz, 20 Hz, 30 Hz etc. and both hear and measure the difference. If the answer is "yes", RP is for you and the sub EQ is part of the package. If not, there's plenty of other room EQ alternatives out there (Dirac and Trinnov in various flavors, or PEQ if you're so inclined).

And remember that you're buying a philosophy, akin to the idea of Audyssey's flatness in the bass or a preset Harman curve, that someone that designed RP somehow thinks this sounds better at the end of the day. Maybe if we weren't enthusiasts and expected deep bass to be loud and rumble, it wouldn't matter as much if the goal was reproducing more "neutral" bass that better matches what was heard in cinemas, which didn't traditionally have subwoofers.
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Audio Gear: Trinnov Altitude 32 (24 channel), NAD M27 amps (3)
Video: JVC RS600, Seymour 100" UF Screen, Lumagen Radiance Pro 4444 (coming soon)
Speakers: PSB Imagine T3 LCR, Imagine T Wides/Side Surround 1, T2 Side Surrounds, Imagine XB rears, Image B6 screens, PSB CS1000 ceilings (6), HSU ULS-15 Mk 2 subs (4) - 13.4.6
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post #2248 of 3010 Old 03-27-2018, 01:34 PM
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I suppose the question you have to ask yourself is whether the bass sounds better with the RP frequency/time alignment approach, despite the rolloff effect below 30 Hz.

Why not have it all?

If RP is run with the miniDSP in the system but w/o filters applied, correcting <30 Hz should have minimal effect on what RP does higher up.

Those of us who have gone to great effort and expense to get deep bass aren't likely to agree with any philosophy that neuters it.

Not to mention that it removes the 16 Hz organ pipe.
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post #2249 of 3010 Old 03-30-2018, 07:43 AM
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Hi Guys.

So I have been playing around with the MP 50 for the last few days.
The sound is very very nice, though I have a few questions regarding problems/bugs I'm experiencing.

1. Trim Button. I have been playing with the treble option, but the changes I make are not saved. If I go to a different input and return to the input I made the changes in, or turn the unit OFF, the treble is back at 0.0 value. I do press EXIT after making the changes. Is this a known bug?

2. LipSync. I'm able to make changes but only by pressing the + sign. The - sign has no effect, so obviously I can not correct things which need a negative value. Is this a known issue?

3. I own the Oppo 103 and the JVC X9500 (RS620) projector. I'm sending a 4k 24HZ through the oppo when watching 1080, stuff as this results in the best PQ with the JVC. Up to the MP 50 , the JVC menu showed YMV, but now it shows RGB, no matter which setting or color space I use with the OPPO. Is this a known issue?

Room Perfect

1. I have skipped the sub adjust procedure and made a room perfect calibration reaching 100% after 13 measurements. Should I re-run room perfect and this time with sub adjust?

2. If I understand correctly, one can not change bass managemant after running room perfect or this will result in loosing RP calibration. Is this correct? Is there no easy way to try the effect of different bass cut off settings?

Thanks

Ran
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post #2250 of 3010 Old 03-30-2018, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ran View Post

1. I have skipped the sub adjust procedure and made a room perfect calibration reaching 100% after 13 measurements. Should I re-run room perfect and this time with sub adjust?
No, Lyngdorf has said running sub adjust is not necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ran View Post

2. If I understand correctly, one can not change bass managemant after running room perfect or this will result in loosing RP calibration. Is this correct? Is there no easy way to try the effect of different bass cut off settings?
Yes, the sub + speaker is corrected as one speaker (part of what makes RP unique) so you cannot change that relationship after running RP.

XO testing should be done before running RP. Or you can just run it several times with different XOs and then load each file to test.

Lyngdorf MP-50 | Yamaha MX-A5200 | Ascend Sierra Towers | Ascend Sierra Horizon | Ascend Sierra Lunas | Ascend HTM-200SE | SVS SB-13 x4
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