Lyngdorf MP-50 | 12 Channel AV Processor; 9.1.6 with matrixed Wides and Top Middles - Page 82 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2431 of 3062 Old 10-05-2018, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by hehe299792458 View Post
I have a 5.2.4 setup, and am debating between the mp50 vs the NAD m17v2 for the pre-amp. Does anyone have experience with both? How do they differ?
I have the NAD M15HD w/AM17 MDC and the MP-50. Both SSPs utilize the same DACs, TI BURR BROWN 1796 running in stereo mode. I have not compared the two directly yet but I expect them to be close to indistinguishable. The most significant difference is going to be RoomPerfect vs Dirac.

The NAD M17 hardware is close to identical to the M15HD. The 1796 DACs have been upgraded to the 1792s (deployed in stereo mode¹, same as the MP-50 & M15HD). M15HD was RCA out only. M17 has XLR in/out and color touchscreen display (much nicer than the MP-50 and the monochrome M15HD IMO). The MP-50 and M17 both feature fully balanced signal paths. Channel levels can be adjusted in increments of 0.1dBFS on the MP-50 vs 0.5dBFS on the NADs.

The street prices of the MP-50 and M17v2 are not far apart. However, the MP-50 supports Atmos, dts:X, and Auro3D. The NAD will not support Auro and currently doesn't support dts:X, Atmos only. The NAD is also limited to 12 channels with no support for WIDES. For me the choice is easily the Lyngdorf.

¹The TI 179x DACs can be deployed in stereo, mono, or dual mono configurations with increasing performance. For example: the Theta Casablanca Extreme-DACS utilize a pair of 1792s for each channel.
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Last edited by Marc Alexander; 10-05-2018 at 09:24 PM.
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post #2432 of 3062 Old 10-06-2018, 03:29 AM
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Is this better suited for a dedicated home theater, or would it be something that excelled in a common living room set up as well? I am looking for the best i can get (within financial reason) that will work for a living room system. I am considering the MP50, NAD m17V2, or the Anthem AVM60. all three obviously have different RC software, and that is what makes me most curious about the possibility of each...

That being said, they will also be called upon to perform well in 2Ch and multi channel music listening. Whichever processor I get will b replacing an older Onkyo SR-706 (used as a pre-pro) for a current 7.2 setup. (looking to implement Atmos in the near future with ceiling reflected speakers like the PSB Imagine xa).

Immersive HT is my main priority!
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post #2433 of 3062 Old 10-06-2018, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I have the NAD M15HD w/AM17 MDC and the MP-50. Both SSPs utilize the same DACs, TI BURR BROWN 1796 running in stereo mode. I have not compared the two directly yet but I expect them to be close to indistinguishable. The most significant difference is going to be RoomPerfect vs Dirac.

The NAD M17 hardware is close to identical to the M15HD. The 1796 DACs have been upgraded to the 1792s (deployed in stereo mode¹, same as the MP-50 & M15HD). M15HD was RCA out only. M17 has XLR in/out and color touchscreen display (much nicer than the MP-50 and the monochrome M15HD IMO). The MP-50 and M17 both feature fully balanced signal paths. Channel levels can be adjusted in increments of 0.1dBFS on the MP-50 vs 0.5dBFS on the NADs.

The street prices of the MP-50 and M17v2 are not far apart. However, the MP-50 supports Atmos, dts:X, and Auro3D. The NAD will not support Auro and currently doesn't support dts:X, Atmos only. The NAD is also limited to 12 channels with no support for WIDES. For me the choice is easily the Lyngdorf.

¹The TI 179x DACs can be deployed in stereo, mono, or dual mono configurations with increasing performance. For example: the Theta Casablanca Extreme-DACS utilize a pair of 1792s for each channel.
By supporting wides, do you mean the MP50 support a 9.x.x setup?
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post #2434 of 3062 Old 10-06-2018, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hehe299792458 View Post
By supporting wides, do you mean the MP50 support a 9.x.x setup?
Any setup utilizing wides, the NAD does not support. The MP-50 supports Wides in both fully rendered (12 channels) and matrixed (up to 16 channels).

Fully rendered Atmos [Wides] layouts supported by MP-50:
5.1.2 + Wides (7.1.2)
5.1.4 + Wides (7.1.4)
7.1.2 + Wides (9.1.2)

Last edited by Marc Alexander; 10-08-2018 at 03:27 PM.
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post #2435 of 3062 Old 10-06-2018, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Any setup utilizing wides, the NAD does not support. The MP-50 supports Wides in both fully rendered (12 channels) and matrixed (up to 16 channels).

Fully rendered Atmos layouts supported by MP-50:
5.1.2 + Wides (7.1.2)
5.1.4 + Wides (7.1.4)
7.1.2 + Wides (9.1.2)

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I read that term in the Lygndorf manual: what does fully rendered vs matrixed mean? What's the difference?
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post #2436 of 3062 Old 10-06-2018, 07:44 PM
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Rendered means the channel signal comes from the Atmos decoder.

Matrixed means it is generated by the MP-50's own processing.

The Wides signals are a combination of the nearest front and surround channels, i.e. LW is made from LF and LS.

There's a lot more discussion earlier in this thread; try searching it for "wide".

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post #2437 of 3062 Old 10-08-2018, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Any setup utilizing wides, the NAD does not support. The MP-50 supports Wides in both fully rendered (12 channels) and matrixed (up to 16 channels).

Fully rendered Atmos layouts supported by MP-50:
5.1.2 + Wides (7.1.2)
5.1.4 + Wides (7.1.4)
7.1.2 + Wides (9.1.2)

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
It won't support 7.1.4 with matrixed wides (7.y.z -> 9.y.z) and top middles (x.y.4 -> x.y.6) for 9.1.6 (like the title says, lol).
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post #2438 of 3062 Old 10-08-2018, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
It won't support 7.1.4 with matrixed wides (7.y.z -> 9.y.z) and top middles (x.y.4 -> x.y.6) for 9.1.6 (like the title says, lol).
What gives you that idea? It does support 9.1.6 speaker layout exactly as you describe.

What is funny? I must be missing something.
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post #2439 of 3062 Old 10-08-2018, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
What gives you that idea? It does support 9.1.6 speaker layout exactly as you describe.

What is funny? I must be missing something.
You didn't list 7.1.4 in your post above as a "fully rendered" Atmos output, so I was curious how it supported matrixed 9.1.6 from a maximum (in your post) of 7.1.2 (or 5.1.4) "fully rendered" output. I'd assume it must have a "fully rendered" 7.1.4 option to then matrix out the wides and middles.

edit: I figured I'd see a "7.1.4 + wides / middles (9.1.6)" option in your above post, I was joking a bit because I didn't and am hopeful it was just an accidental omission (or possibly I just read your post wrong).
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post #2440 of 3062 Old 10-08-2018, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
You didn't list 7.1.4 in your post above as a "fully rendered" Atmos output, so I was curious how it supported matrixed 9.1.6 from a maximum (in your post) of 7.1.2 (or 5.1.4) "fully rendered" output. I'd assume it must have a "fully rendered" 7.1.4 option to then matrix out the wides and middles.

edit: I figured I'd see a "7.1.4 + wides / middles (9.1.6)" option in your above post, I was joking a bit because I didn't and am hopeful it was just an accidental omission (or possibly I just read your post wrong).
So my incompletion was funny?

I edited the post by adding the word [Wides] one additional time. Does it make more sense now?
Quote:
Fully rendered Atmos [Wides] layouts supported by MP-50:
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post #2441 of 3062 Old 10-08-2018, 04:03 PM
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So my incompletion was funny?

I edited the post by adding the word [Wides] one additional time. Does it make more sense now?
It was just funny because nowhere in your post was 9.1.6 mentioned (which is in the title of the thread) and I assumed it must be an omission, but maybe not (since you're typically very comprehensive and knowledgeable in your posts). Rest assured, I was not (and still am not) picking on you -- if it's coming across that way, I apologize.

That said, I still see no mention of 7.1.4 -> 9.1.6 in your post, so I guess I'm still curious how one configures the MP-50's Atmos layout, if there exists no 7.1.4 layout, to get 9.1.6.

edit: maybe I'm just missing that you're strictly responding to the layouts that can be "widened" not those that can get matrixed in the height layers as well -- but 7.1.4 -> 9.1.4 is still a wides-only matrix that I'd assume is supported along with 7.1.4 -> 9.1.6 (engaging both matrixes supported by the unit).

edit 2: that said, I'm getting more convinced that matrixed wides are better than rendered given all the folks in the Trinnov thread watching their wides and not seeing much activity on the "pinned" Atmos titles (which may not be going away if they exist to make the studio's (Disney's it seems) life easier in authoring the disc and streaming tracks concurrently). At least with matrixed wides the front stage can be "opened up" by the matrix algorithm which is better than nothing if done well.

Last edited by DreamWarrior; 10-08-2018 at 04:08 PM.
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post #2442 of 3062 Old 10-08-2018, 05:04 PM
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I make playlists for my videos in JRiver. Is there anyway one can keep the audio alive in the MP-50 or MX160 at all times between each video file?
At the moment as each file finishes I clip the audio at the start of the next video file.

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post #2443 of 3062 Old 10-11-2018, 09:51 AM
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Still really want to put this back on the list -- any word on the 18gb chip upgrade and the 20hz bass cliff?
FYI, I just received an email response from Flemming indicating that we will not see a chipset upgrade in 2018.
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post #2444 of 3062 Old 10-11-2018, 11:41 AM
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FYI, I just received an email response from Flemming indicating that we will not see a chipset upgrade in 2018.
Well, 2019 is only a few months away, lol...I'm not in that much of a rush, but...I would like to get my equipment hooked back up sometime while the weather is cold and I'll want to use it instead of being outside. They give any heads-up when they think it'll be ready?
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post #2445 of 3062 Old 10-11-2018, 12:31 PM
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Well, 2019 is only a few months away, lol...I'm not in that much of a rush, but...I would like to get my equipment hooked back up sometime while the weather is cold and I'll want to use it instead of being outside. They give any heads-up when they think it'll be ready?
True, January will be here before we know it. Lyngdorf's response to my inquiry of when we can expect to see the upgrade was only that it will not be in 2018. I did reply back to see if we could expect the upgrade the first half of 2019. I will post any response that I receive. My fingers are crossed as I really want to pick up one of these.
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post #2446 of 3062 Old 10-12-2018, 10:20 AM
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^^ They responded indicating not confirmed any timing... I guess we will have to wait a bit longer.
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post #2447 of 3062 Old 10-14-2018, 10:26 PM
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Has someone point this out to them yet?
Should it be 3.0.7?
A bit confusing...


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post #2448 of 3062 Old 11-08-2018, 01:22 PM
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Version 3.0.9 is out!
It fixes, amongst others, the <30Hz issue that myself and others have been complaining about.
RoomPerfect is finally, ehm, PERFECT!
Now I have +/-5dB from 10Hz - 200Hz :-) Before I had a 10dB drop already at 20Hz. Gone.
No need to redo the calibration as the MP-50 only stores the measurements only and does the corrections "on the fly" based on that.
This is according to Lyngdorf support and I can confirm this is the case.

Just upgrade to 3.0.9 and finally you can experience proper (still tight but now linear) LF in your subs. At least the difference is huge in my system...

There is also a "loudness control" that I haven't seen before (??).

I will experiment and measure a bit more and post complete graphs by the end of the weekend.

Thank you Lyngdorf, best company around :-)

cheers,
Erik
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post #2449 of 3062 Old 11-08-2018, 02:23 PM
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Erik,

That's great news.


Quote:
Originally Posted by arisholm View Post
There is also a "loudness control" that I haven't seen before (??).

I certainly want to hear more about that!

Noah
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post #2450 of 3062 Old 11-08-2018, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by arisholm View Post
Version 3.0.9 is out!
It fixes, amongst others, the <30Hz issue that myself and others have been complaining about.
RoomPerfect is finally, ehm, PERFECT!
Now I have +/-5dB from 10Hz - 200Hz :-) Before I had a 10dB drop already at 20Hz. Gone.
No need to redo the calibration as the MP-50 only stores the measurements only and does the corrections "on the fly" based on that.
This is according to Lyngdorf support and I can confirm this is the case.

Just upgrade to 3.0.9 and finally you can experience proper (still tight but now linear) LF in your subs. At least the difference is huge in my system...

There is also a "loudness control" that I haven't seen before (??).

I will experiment and measure a bit more and post complete graphs by the end of the weekend.

Thank you Lyngdorf, best company around :-)

cheers,
Erik
We did it!!!

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post #2451 of 3062 Old 11-08-2018, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Erik,

That's great news.





I certainly want to hear more about that!

I believe "TrueHD Dynamic Range Control" was already there. It looks like "Atmos Dynamic Range Control" might be new.

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post #2452 of 3062 Old 11-08-2018, 04:18 PM
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Oh; dynamic range control is not the same as loudness control, though IIRC Audyssey includes something like it with their dynamic range control

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post #2453 of 3062 Old 11-08-2018, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Oh; dynamic range control is not the same as loudness control, though IIRC Audyssey includes something like it with their dynamic range control
The MP-50 has always had a separate loudness control.

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post #2454 of 3062 Old 11-08-2018, 04:34 PM
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Hummm...well, with the bass issue fixed, now it's just 18gb cards and I may be in. I'm giving the NAD M17v2 a shot with an in-home demo soon and if it and Dirac don't get me where I want to be, this will probably be the next in line (unless Emotiva manages to succeed with the RMC-1).

However, assuming 18gb cards are a ways off, has anyone successfully implemented a work-around? For example, I'm not adverse to using a separate 18gb switch for video with an AVR-key (or, some switches seem to have built-in HDMI 1.4 "audio-only" outputs) to get audio to the Lyngdorf unit. However, I don't want to be buying tons of switches until I find something that works well -- I don't have the time and patience to bother with that.
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post #2455 of 3062 Old 11-08-2018, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duckymomo View Post
The MP-50 has always had a separate loudness control.

According to the manual (pdf which I downloaded many months ago), you're right:

"Loudness management turns on a traditional loudness function for low playback level as well as functions dedicated to the specific formats being decoded. These functions are managed in the setup menu: Audio Setup / Audio Processing."


I was unaware and lamented it's absence at AVForums, and what's interesting is that several people, including some who I thought were owners, agreed it should be added.
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post #2456 of 3062 Old 11-09-2018, 02:27 AM
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A workaround for what? You'll get everything from a blu ray player and some media players. If you want Xbox HDR support then you'll need a little box from hdfury, like the vertex or their new one.



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post #2457 of 3062 Old 11-09-2018, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
Hummm...well, with the bass issue fixed, now it's just 18gb cards and I may be in. I'm giving the NAD M17v2 a shot with an in-home demo soon and if it and Dirac don't get me where I want to be, this will probably be the next in line (unless Emotiva manages to succeed with the RMC-1).

However, assuming 18gb cards are a ways off, has anyone successfully implemented a work-around? For example, I'm not adverse to using a separate 18gb switch for video with an AVR-key (or, some switches seem to have built-in HDMI 1.4 "audio-only" outputs) to get audio to the Lyngdorf unit. However, I don't want to be buying tons of switches until I find something that works well -- I don't have the time and patience to bother with that.
There are very limited 4k60 sources right now (outside of video games). For the time being just set your blu ray player and streamers to output 4K24 instead of "auto" and you will be fine. Lyngdorf has committed to having a 18gbps board available and the upgrade price will be $1300. The price of the MP50 will be going up once the boards are updated. At current street prices the MP50 is a very good value, as is the Emotiva. From what I understand NAD basically sells at MSRP only so it is worse from a value proposition...also, it only has balanced outputs for 7 channels, kind of a silly move at these price points.
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MP-50 LFE vs AUX, Dual Subs Diagonally Positioned

I just installed my MP-50 this week and I'm adjusting the overall system. Dual subs have been heavily discussed...but I'm hoping for further insight from others more technical than me.

My subwoofers are positioned diagonally in the room. The front sub is about 2' closer to the primary listening position than the front sub. Moving my subs around the room is NOT an option - very limited space - no need even suggesting it.

I have been working with SVS, my Dealer and Lyngdorf to optimize my setup - with varying opinions.

Current Setup:

- My two diagonally positioned subs are connected to the MP-50 AUX 1 and 2 outputs (MP-50 LFE output is not used)
- The idea behind using AUX 1 and 2 is that this configuration would better accommodate the unequal distances of my subs from the prime listening position - reducing phase issues.
- All my speakers are set to M Medium (80Hz cutoff frequency)
- Lyngdorf says "With a diagonal subwoofer setup you can operate in Mono only". They strongly suggest I use the LFE output with a Y Splitter - but they acknowledge there may be phase issues given subwoofer placement. I have not tested this configuration yet.

Are there other individuals like me that have two subwoofers that are diagonally placed in the room that are unequal distances from the listening position? If so, how did you handle the setup?

Thanks!!!

My Equipment:

- MP-50
- SVS SB16 Ultras (Pair)
- B&W 803 D3 Front Speakers
- B&W HTM1 D3 Center
- B&W 804 D3 Rear Speakers
- SVS Prime Elevation Speakers (not installed yet)
- McIntosh MC452 (Front Speakers)
- MC205 (Center, Rear, and Elevation Speakers)
- Oppo 203
- PS4 Pro
- Sony 65" Z9D
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post #2459 of 3062 Old 11-09-2018, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Rock Danger View Post
A workaround for what? You'll get everything from a blu ray player and some media players. If you want Xbox HDR support then you'll need a little box from hdfury, like the vertex or their new one.



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I'm not buying a separate "little box" for every 4k component I own or buy that doesn't have dual HDMI outputs. I'd prefer a single source switch that will send output to either both the TV / projector and AVP or to a device like the HD Fury AVR-key which can do the A/V "split" from whatever the switch is set to. I'm sure it'll cost a bit more up front, but in the long run, as I add sources, it'll be easier to manage. Unfortunately, I don't trust the cruddy HDMI spec sufficiently to experiment and frustrate myself wasting precious time. If I go down this path, I'd rather see if anyone's had success with a particular configuration before dealing with it myself, lol.
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Originally Posted by malba2366 View Post
There are very limited 4k60 sources right now (outside of video games). For the time being just set your blu ray player and streamers to output 4K24 instead of "auto" and you will be fine. Lyngdorf has committed to having a 18gbps board available and the upgrade price will be $1300. The price of the MP50 will be going up once the boards are updated. At current street prices the MP50 is a very good value, as is the Emotiva. From what I understand NAD basically sells at MSRP only so it is worse from a value proposition...also, it only has balanced outputs for 7 channels, kind of a silly move at these price points.
I realize the 18gb bandwidth isn't necessary for all sources, but I'd still prefer not to deal with the limitation.

As for the NAD, I've been given a reasonable price, especially if I buy the demo unit. It also has balanced connections for all channels, you just need to use a mini-XLR to XLR adapter for the heights (which are included). I was also pretty harsh on the NAD's value, given its low channel count and lack of DTS:X and OSD. However, there aren't many Dirac units around to chose from, so if one wants to try Dirac as I do, it's probably one of the better contenders. The Arcam / Lexicon units are another, but I don't like being limited to a single crossover setting for all base channels.

Last edited by DreamWarrior; 11-09-2018 at 11:00 AM.
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post #2460 of 3062 Old 11-09-2018, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
I'm not buying a separate "little box" for every 4k component I own or buy that doesn't have dual HDMI outputs. I'd prefer a single source switch that will send output to either both the TV / projector and AVP or to a device like the HD Fury AVR-key which can do the A/V "split" from whatever the switch is set to. I'm sure it'll cost a bit more up front, but in the long run, as I add sources, it'll be easier to manage. Unfortunately, I don't trust the cruddy HDMI spec sufficiently to experiment and frustrate myself wasting precious time. If I go down this path, I'd rather see if anyone's had success with a particular configuration before dealing with it myself, lol.

I realize the 18gb bandwidth isn't necessary for all sources, but I'd still prefer not to deal with the limitation.

As for the NAD, I've been given a reasonable price, especially if I buy the demo unit. It also has balanced connections for all channels, you just need to use a mini-XLR to XLR adapter for the heights (which are included). I was also pretty harsh on the NAD's value, given its low channel count and lack of DTS:X and OSD. However, there aren't many Dirac units around to chose from, so if one wants to try Dirac as I do, it's probably one of the better contenders. The Arcam / Lexicon units are another, but I don't like being limited to a single crossover setting for all base channels.

Sorry, I meant what media source do you use for your movies etc that won't work on the Lyngdorf right now? Where is the limitation outside xbox's HDR?
They do have an 18gbps board coming out and I'll wager it'll smash the NAD too. The MP50 is right up there with the best of them and gets good results consistently. I've heard them in several different rooms now with the same speakers (more or less) and it's as good/better as everything else I've heard.

Giving up DTS:X seems a bit daft, Auro, sure there's not much going on there in the west.
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